EPTIf you happen to scout a tech lab right after the first marine, would you stick with this build or go z,st,nexus,st(chrono)?
[G] A slightly improved PvT 1 gate FE - Page 4
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United States1864 Posts
If you happen to scout a tech lab right after the first marine, would you stick with this build or go z,st,nexus,st(chrono)? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On November 17 2011 19:48 eastdragon wrote: So just out of curiosity, what would you do vs Debo's Marine Hellion Opening, which seems tailor made to counter a fast expanding Protoss...? I almost died laughing when I watched that video, it was so ridiculous. It could have been a 5 minute video if he didn't spend 5 minutes talking about how "ballin" SCVs are, how he came up with this build in his "laboratory" and how "Helleons" defeat "Zeelots" so easily. However, I think it does go to show how unsafe 1 Gate Fast Expands are. If the Terran is doing something "standard" you can hold it with good micro. But if the Terran does some kind of one base SCV all-in, I don't see how this holds. At best, your expansion dies and you are contained on one base, holding off the Terran with forcefields. | ||
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RabidSeagull
United States220 Posts
You guys should watch Axslav's stream if you're worried about marauders, he opens nexus first or 1gate fe vs T almost every game and early marauders are never ever a threat whatsoever. Even proxy rax marauders; just pull probes if you're missing chronoboost on your gate or don't trust your micro, marauders are actually quite bad vs probes. *edit* that debo video is definitely one of the scariest builds when trying to fast expo vs T, especially if its the 4 hellion + marines drop with 1 medivack, I usually lose to that every time but I'm pretty bad so maybe it's just me | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 17 2011 19:48 eastdragon wrote: So just out of curiosity, what would you do vs Debo's Marine Hellion Opening, which seems tailor made to counter a fast expanding Protoss...? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_ZWg-9gsnA&feature=player_embedded Hahahha. Hilarious video. But that Terran build isn't actually strong for breaking the front. The Protoss just played crappy. He had exactly 2 stalkers at 7 min. I'd have something like 3z/4s/1s at the same time....so I'd be fine. If they do a similar build but get the hellions into the main (factory float, medivac or run-by) while the marines hit the front, you have to micro well, but that's SC. If you don't want to micro to defend two bases, your alternative is to not expand. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On November 17 2011 23:49 kcdc wrote: The 20 or 22 food nexus expands need to cut probes for quite a while in order to be safe. I doubt that they're more economical than this build, but you can run a test. My goal with this build is to get the maximum possible economy while being safe against everything. If you know another build that's safe and gets more econ, please post it. Instead of getting a sentry, get another zealot and don't mine the 100 gas. Now you have a faster nexus, a better poke at the Terran's ramp, and you're safer vs 2 rax. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Anyway, I really like this KCDC, I now 1gate FE on all but the biggest maps, but I just wanted to share (maybe you can add your thoughts to it) that I do the poke at the front, but I don't go up the ramp. If you bring your stalker away from the ramp but near the ledge, you will get fired upon by the highground units. Just watch the shots and move back quickly. You will only take shield damage, you will see marauder shells if they have marauders, if they have concussive, and you will also see every unit on the high ground that fires on you too. Bunkers are revealed as well, so that's a way I get tech info. I guess you could also bring a probe, and if you're not fired upon you can send it up the ramp. From that point you can usually make a pretty good choice as whether to add some more gates or start the robo. | ||
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Cloudshade
91 Posts
On November 18 2011 03:18 iamke55 wrote: Instead of getting a sentry, get another zealot and don't mine the 100 gas. Now you have a faster nexus, a better poke at the Terran's ramp, and you're safer vs 2 rax. I like this lol...personally, I've always found the zealot stalker stalker nexus variation to be safest, because on the most part I do the pylon drop next to the rax to either delay the addon, OR ultimately scout there is no addon on the 2nd rax, allowing me to pressure a ton because of the delayed tech lab or just pressure immensely at the front because of the lack of addons...Of course if the terran was planning to go factory regardless, he would get a bunker most of the time, in which case you would have expoed...but definitely i can see the zealot stalker zealot working, just lighter pressure than the zealot stalker stalker variation. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
Mind if I ask why you take a Pylon before Nexus (considering you say you take a Nexus at 27 food)? | ||
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Cloudshade
91 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:25 kcdc wrote: Hahahha. Hilarious video. But that Terran build isn't actually strong for breaking the front. The Protoss just played crappy. He had exactly 2 stalkers at 7 min. I'd have something like 3z/4s/1s at the same time....so I'd be fine. If they do a similar build but get the hellions into the main (factory float, medivac or run-by) while the marines hit the front, you have to micro well, but that's SC. If you don't want to micro to defend two bases, your alternative is to not expand. indeed hilarious vid XD but yea that toss is really skimping on units, and his gates were seriously late....don't think that build is worth crap against a better toss | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 03:18 iamke55 wrote: Instead of getting a sentry, get another zealot and don't mine the 100 gas. Now you have a faster nexus, a better poke at the Terran's ramp, and you're safer vs 2 rax. Are you talking about a 20 food 1 gate FE or a 27-30 food 1 gate FE? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 04:14 SidewinderSC2 wrote: I actually run the same thing except Nexus on 26 food (Nexus -> Pylon, instead of Pylon -> Nexus), and I grab 3 Stalkers on warp-in for a total of 4s, 1z, 1sentry.. differing slightly if I was able to scout a tech-lab first on the Barracks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LggzklupAvI Mind if I ask why you take a Pylon before Nexus (considering you say you take a Nexus at 27 food)? I do it to avoid cutting probes. I haven't tested it much with the nexus before pylon, so I can't tell you for certain which is more economical. Nexus at 26/26 is 150 minerals faster than 27/34 and 200 minerals faster than 28/34, but obviously has 1 or 2 less probes at those times. Since the nexus will finish faster, you may be able to catch up on probe count. You'd have to run the builds side-by-side to see what the differences are. I'd guess that it's pretty close to even. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:03 kcdc wrote:I do it to avoid cutting probes. I haven't tested it much with the nexus before pylon, so I can't tell you for certain which is more economical. Nexus at 26/26 is 150 minerals faster than 27/34 and 200 minerals faster than 28/34, but obviously has 1 or 2 less probes at those times. Since the nexus will finish faster, you may be able to catch up on probe count. You'd have to run the builds side-by-side to see what the differences are. I'd guess that it's pretty close to even. Agreed. Great thread.  | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Also, watching your video, you planted your nexus on 26/26 later than later than I do at 27/34. That's mostly because you messed up and started it at 550 minerals, but it's also partially because you wanted to deny the scouting SCV before you started your nexus. So if you value completing a stalker before starting your nexus, you might consider taking the pylon and an extra probe or two first. One last tip: it's much safer to put the pylon on the high ground in your main proving power to the low ground. This does the same thing allowing you to warp into your natural, but it prevents the pylon from being sniped. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:20 kcdc wrote: Also, watching your video, you planted your nexus on 26/26 before pylon later than later than I do at 27/34. That's mostly because you messed up and started it at 550 minerals, but it's also partially because you wanted to deny the scouting SCV before you started your nexus. So if you value completing a stalker before starting your nexus, you might consider taking the pylon and an extra probe or two first. One last tip: it's much safer to put the pylon on the high ground in your main proving power to the low ground. This does the same thing allowing you to warp into your natural, but it prevents the pylon from being sniped. Yeah, that's actually a great point. Sometimes I can actually kill the SCV with my first Zealot by some position blocking micro, so I usually get the Nexus down on time (or they just leave once they see my Stalker on the way). I suppose the adjustment could be that if I can't get that SCV with my Zealot, I can just drop it on 27 instead. Sometimes I'll just show them the Nexus and not care because of the opener they are running (gasless for example), so there's a lot of variables there. That replay isn't ideal either (I was playing a Random player in that video), but I saw the HuK game from MLG, had a discussion about it on the battle.net forums and decided to put that video together based on games I played in the last couple of days since I don't save all of my replays. And I agree about the pylon placement. I hadn't ever thought of it before and then had it sniped the other day when I was being careless. I just got into a habit of crushing 2rax pushes really hard so I didn't think much about the safety of it. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:25 SidewinderSC2 wrote: Yeah, that's actually a great point. Sometimes I can actually kill the SCV with my first Zealot by some position blocking micro, so I usually get the Nexus down on time (or they just leave once they see my Stalker on the way). I suppose the adjustment could be that if I can't get that SCV with my Zealot, I can just drop it on 27 instead. Sometimes I'll just show them the Nexus and not care because of the opener they are running (gasless for example), so there's a lot of variables there. That replay isn't ideal either (I was playing a Random player in that video), but I saw the HuK game from MLG, had a discussion about it on the battle.net forums and decided to put that video together based on games I played in the last couple of days since I don't save all of my replays. And I agree about the pylon placement. I hadn't ever thought of it before and then had it sniped the other day when I was being careless. I just got into a habit of crushing 2rax pushes really hard so I didn't think much about the safety of it. I don't think denying the scout is that valuable. They know you're on 1 gas, and they're pegging you on 1 gate FE anyway. My bigger concern would be having units out with enough time to kill an engineering bay block which can be a real issue with the 20 and 22 food 1 gate FE variants. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:34 kcdc wrote:I don't think denying the scout is that valuable. They know you're on 1 gas, and they're pegging you on 1 gate FE anyway. My bigger concern would be having units out with enough time to kill an engineering bay block which can be a real issue with the 20 and 22 food 1 gate FE variants. Again, it comes down to map, spawn locations, his build, what you know, etc. Tons of variables go into deciding to deny scouting. Sometimes it even comes down to personal preference. Personally, I think it's only worth doing if he is running a really risky build that could take a lot of damage from a simple 4gate timing, so he's not actually sure what I'm doing. The Engineering Bay block actually is really hindering to any 1gate expand if you aren't paying enough attention. Ultimately it just comes down to being aware of it. He can't build it very well if there's a Zealot chasing him. I'm not that worried. Overall, the build you and I essentially agree upon is better than the one posted on liquipedia (1 Stalker -> Nexus instead of 2 Stalkers), safer than 20 food expands or whatever.. I can't say enough good things about it and am shocked when I see such risky/poor 1gate FE's ran and people die with it, blaming 1gate FE. More specifically, 1 Stalker into Nexus is viable at literally every level, and is a very safe plus economically aggressive build. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
Because with testing vs the ai I found out that if I follow your bo with the 2cb version on the nexus and you use all your cb perfectly on your warpgate tech (5 times in total) instead of using one cb on the sentry and 3 on the warpgate tech, that you get your warpgate tech rdy at 5:30min ingame time and can warp in this zealot already earlier. The cooldown on warpgates is shorter than producing units out of gateways is slightly shorter so I was wondering if that would not be more efficient. A possible drawback could be your sentry coming out 10sec later (due to not using cb on it like in your replay) and getting your 2nd warpin on the first gate (which is your 2nd stalker produced in this game) also slightly later (20sec earlier warpgates but you need to wait for a zealot-warpgate-cooldown). On the positive side you would end up with a faster 2nd zealot and faster warpgates. I assume that you chose to not get that quick warpgate tech since you don't really end up getting more units out faster overall by doing this and since you need for your 2nd gate to finish anyways. It would be nice if you could share your thoughts quick about this. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 07:52 Fairwell wrote: Thx for sharing your 1gate fe variant kcdc (there has been another thread bumped up about different pvt 1gate fe versions lately and I was really hoping you would make a new thread about your new version soon :-)), especially since it's tailored around holding the 2 rax push. In your replay you only used 3 cb on your warpgate tech and chronoboosted your sentry once. Is this what your normally do? Because with testing vs the ai I found out that if I follow your bo with the 2cb version on the nexus and you use all your cb perfectly on your warpgate tech (5 times in total) instead of using one cb on the sentry and 3 on the warpgate tech, that you get your warpgate tech rdy at 5:30min ingame time and can warp in this zealot already earlier. The cooldown on warpgates is shorter than producing units out of gateways is slightly shorter so I was wondering if that would not be more efficient. A possible drawback could be your sentry coming out 10sec later (due to not using cb on it like in your replay) and getting your 2nd warpin on the first gate (which is your 2nd stalker produced in this game) also slightly later (20sec earlier warpgates but you need to wait for a zealot-warpgate-cooldown). On the positive side you would end up with a faster 2nd zealot and faster warpgates. I assume that you chose to not get that quick warpgate tech since you don't really end up getting more units out faster overall by doing this and since you need for your 2nd gate to finish anyways. It would be nice if you could share your thoughts quick about this. Honestly, I hadn't thought of doing that. It sounds like it would be difficult to execute because it's hard to chain 5 chronoboosts on WG tech perfectly. Having played PvP, I don't think a 5:30 warp-in is a realistic expectation for me in a game.....and I'm pretty sure it's not possible off of a 13-gate. | ||
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