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On November 16 2011 10:16 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Why did you add those 2 extra gates before his push hit?
Were you just completely sure he would do the pressure and wanted to counter attack, or would you need more gates to hold if he went for like 3-4 rax?
I wanted to counter-attack. You might notice that I sent a probe to his natural while his attack was moving toward me. That was because I was planning to set up my forward pylon for a counter-attack before his attack started.
I don't know how things work out without the additional gates because I plan to counter against quick bio pressure.
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Hey when i do one gate expand i usually go pylon gate gas core and 2nd gas when core is in progress. then i get zealot sentry sentry nexus. Is your build better/refined. or is this ok? Have you tested this variation?
EDIT: thanks for your reply: I just felt that when i go zealot sentry sentry the extra ff can trap the units that he sends and it make killing them much easier. but you are right when it comes to dealing with that pesky reaper.
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On November 16 2011 10:25 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Hey when i do one gate expand i usually go pylon gate gas core and 2nd gas when core is in progress. then i get zealot sentry sentry nexus. Is your build better/refined. or is this ok? Have you tested this variation?
I don't like that as much because I think your defense is a lot more versatile if you have a stalker (you can kill reapers, you can handle marauder kiting, your army is a little meatier against 2 marauder pokes), but you can do what makes you happy. More sentries early makes for a stronger 6 gate timing.
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been waiting on another thread of yours kcdc, your original threab about 1 gate FE basically got me through 3 leagues (plat into masters) in terms of how much it improved my pvt, I really like the timing of the second gate and will be trying this out a bunch. one quick question though, i don't know if you've messed around with pylon blocking the addon (not letting pylon finish ofc) but it gives a decent amount of information regarding what the terran is doing if you scout a gas opening.
Rax lift, you can expect pressure.
No rax lift, some kind of tech build or the terran's initial build is delayed by the amount of time the pylon is there, which isn't bad either.
thoughts? and thanks
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Thanks!
Just a question though.
For the longest time I've thought 1 gate expand means... make 1 gate, then expand. But apparently you get gas and core.
So I was wondering, why don't people call it strictly what it is -- a core expand? The purpose of naming a build order... the actual build itself is to make things convenient and so people who see the name of the BO get an idea of what it is. If someone wants to say "1 gate expand" now then it will be confused with getting a core expand o.o
I do realize that if you get 3 gates then a core and expand, it should not be called "3 gate core expand" nor "3 core expand", but it's pretty obvious when you say "3 gate expand" that you don't just get the 3 gates for zealots xD.
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Yay kcdc! Forever helping PvT!
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I've been working on 1g FE recently!
This isn't quite safe IMO, the most aggressive 2raxes will have 3 marauders 9 marines, x scv's at ~6:30 at your nat (on a non-huge map). You will only have 2 zealots 3 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield). Or he'll have 3 marauders 11 marines, x scv's at 6:45 in your nat vs 2 zealots 5 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield).
You can hold maybe if you see it coming and pull a good amount of probes, but you will lose a LOT of probes. Especially if he sends ~3 scv's.
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I understand this build is a faster but also safer version of the 1 gate FE. I see you focus more on handling pressure while getting the expo up.
But compared to the zealot-stalker-stalker expo, would it be more worth it to trade an earlier expo for the ability to pressure? If your opponent plans to pressure you heavily of course you won't be able to pressure them much either(more early units for defense though) but if your opponent has no plans to pressure you (teching up hard or taking a fast expo), wouldn't a zealot stalker stalker pressure be worth it to sacrifice for a slightly earlier nexus? Pressuring with initial gateway units has always been a huge part of protoss play lately. If you take a look at players like SaSe, he could even take off bunkers or at least a few SCVs/marines with 3-4 gateway units only. I know it's arguable that not everyone has that kind of micro but it's also true that the opponents we face don't have that kind of defense either.
So it comes down to this, how much more is the benefit of a nexus before a 2nd stalker? Compared to the HuK variation of super early nexus I would say this is much much safer although not as greedy. This build sort of struck me to be in between being greedy and wanting to pressure. I would say having a zealot and stalker you probably won't be able to pressure much if not at all but having an extra stalker does change a huge deal in the early stages of the game.
Therefore, I would like to know your thoughts about whether the ability to pressure is worth more than a couple seconds earlier of a nexus? Is the extra income from the slightly earlier nexus better than a few marines/scv or even forcing your opponent to make more units and not be too greedy.
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On November 16 2011 12:13 Complete wrote:
I've been working on 1g FE recently!
This isn't quite safe IMO, the most aggressive 2raxes will have 3 marauders 9 marines, x scv's at ~6:30 at your nat (on a non-huge map). You will only have 2 zealots 3 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield). Or he'll have 3 marauders 11 marines, x scv's at 6:45 in your nat vs 2 zealots 5 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield).
You can hold maybe if you see it coming and pull a good amount of probes, but you will lose a LOT of probes. Especially if he sends ~3 scv's.
Did you watch the replay? I haven't counted the units, but Pokebunny is a good T player that was doing the aggressive 2-rax with 2nd rax before supply depot and reactor after 1st marine. I'm pretty sure that's the optimal BO, and that anything that hits harder would probably fall into the category of cheese that you need to scout and react (ie not expand) against.
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On November 16 2011 12:41 Xenorawks wrote:
I understand this build is a faster but also safer version of the 1 gate FE. I see you focus more on handling pressure while getting the expo up.
But compared to the zealot-stalker-stalker expo, would it be more worth it to trade an earlier expo for the ability to pressure? If your opponent plans to pressure you heavily of course you won't be able to pressure them much either(more early units for defense though) but if your opponent has no plans to pressure you (teching up hard or taking a fast expo), wouldn't a zealot stalker stalker pressure be worth it to sacrifice for a slightly earlier nexus? Pressuring with initial gateway units has always been a huge part of protoss play lately. If you take a look at players like SaSe, he could even take off bunkers or at least a few SCVs/marines with 3-4 gateway units only. I know it's arguable that not everyone has that kind of micro but it's also true that the opponents we face don't have that kind of defense either.
So it comes down to this, how much more is the benefit of a nexus before a 2nd stalker? Compared to the HuK variation of super early nexus I would say this is much much safer although not as greedy. This build sort of struck me to be in between being greedy and wanting to pressure. I would say having a zealot and stalker you probably won't be able to pressure much if not at all but having an extra stalker does change a huge deal in the early stages of the game.
Therefore, I would like to know your thoughts about whether the ability to pressure is worth more than a couple seconds earlier of a nexus? Is the extra income from the slightly earlier nexus better than a few marines/scv or even forcing your opponent to make more units and not be too greedy.
If pressure is working well for you, don't change it. I found that it didn't do much for me anymore, but maybe that's because my opponents knew what to expect. I prefer this BO because it's better if T plays optimally (in which case he'll lose nothing to the zealot-stalker poke), but the zealot-stalker poke will sometimes win a game outright when T does an unsafe build or screws up his micro.
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anybody else having trouble downloading the replay? or is it just me?
since i cant look at it id like to know the nexus timing and the probe count by the time the first warp in comes. Coz im doing a bit dif bo that reaches the same army comp at the same timing and id like to campare.
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The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR:
with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
so this build really has no point in my opinion.
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On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote:
Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This is Huk's way to expand, I started doing this after I died to an attack of (if I recall correctly) 2 Marauders could have been three, not sure with Shells and 11 Marines at minute 6:10
The thing was Terran went for a 13 and a 14 Rax, got 2 Marines to deny any scouting and then added Reactor+Techlab and another Barracks, I only saw a 13 Barracks and a Marine. This is where Huk's expansion is so brilliant, you get 4Gates really fast and have 2 Stalkers to scout, then you can have up to 10 Units as your Terran buddy arrives, sure you cut a ton of probes and spend all chronoboost on your Warpgates etc, your Eco sux for a fast Nexus but you will survive! If you don't need that many Units you are about equal with a 28ish food Nexus due to Chronoboost usage(more on Probes with later Nexus).
Sidenote:
Zealot+Stalker Preassure should never work against a Terran. It can do damage only if he messes up. He either should greet you with a Bunker or Concussive Shells. Either way you don't do damage and if he has concussive and tricks you you lost the game right there.
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On November 16 2011 22:01 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote:
Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This pretty much describes my mindset a couple weeks ago 
Nowadays I throw down my robotics way earlier with the intention of going into a greedy double forge play with carefully balanced immortal support. If I face a 3 rax all-in I sack the expo and go straight into a one base colossus play and just hold my ramp.
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On November 16 2011 22:06 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 22:01 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote:
Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information. This pretty much describes my mindset a couple weeks ago Nowadays I throw down my robotics way earlier with the intention of going into a greedy double forge play with carefully balanced immortal support. If I face a 3 rax all-in I sack the expo and go straight into a one base colossus play and just hold my ramp.
Yo, good luck on Tal'darim.
After the described loss I was so angry and sure that Terran was OP and that in no way I can have a decent eco and be safe against Terran. (I mean you can face 3 Rax all-in or 1Rax Expo and you will see the exact same thing, 13 Rax and a Marine)
So I did a ton of research, a couple of games against computer, wrote down timings, Units etc and came to the conclusion that HuK's 20 Food expansion is the way to go. If you don't think so, don't do it but on Tal'darim you either get HuK's 20 Food expo or you can get a buildorder loss.
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On November 16 2011 22:11 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 22:06 sleepingdog wrote:On November 16 2011 22:01 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote:
Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information. This pretty much describes my mindset a couple weeks ago Nowadays I throw down my robotics way earlier with the intention of going into a greedy double forge play with carefully balanced immortal support. If I face a 3 rax all-in I sack the expo and go straight into a one base colossus play and just hold my ramp. Yo, good luck on Tal'darim.
Dude, Tal'darim has always been different
On Tal'darim the long rush distances help...usually I just go one gate exp into 3 more gates.
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HuK's build is definitely one of my favorite to do, and afaik is one of the most sound ways to crush 2 rax pressure while expanding early.
As for 3 rax I don't really know, I still often lose to it, and when I do it myself as well it's very easy to win with that. Just bring your scv's, get a huge arc and rofl-faceroll some stutter step A-move :D
What do you do against 3rax when doing a 1 gate expo? That's mainly why I stopped 1 gate FE'ing on xel naga and I've done more 2 gate roboing on this map.
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The biggest problem with 1 gate fe I found was 3-4 rax play. The terran would not attack early just get the map control and reinforce untill he has a huge mm force which just destroys my gateway units. This way I dont really have time to tech or build up eco because I expect to be attacked anytime. And you cant really scout if you go 1 gate FE.
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On November 16 2011 21:28 WrathOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself. you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield. TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax. so this build really has no point in my opinion.
This just isn't at all true. You absolutely can deal easily with fast marauders with this opening. Like I said, I almost never pull probes. The only time I would pull probes is if T brings 2-3 SCV's at the 2 marauder timing (at which I have 1z/1s/1s) and starts multi-bunkering immediately, in which case I'll consider pulling 2-3 probes to clean it up. Hell, even if you're not keeping tabs on the low ground and let them get bunkers up, you can usually clean it up fine at 6 min w/o pulling probes.
Post a replay if you're struggling against something.
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On November 16 2011 22:01 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote:
Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information. This is Huk's way to expand, I started doing this after I died to an attack of (if I recall correctly) 2 Marauders could have been three, not sure with Shells and 11 Marines at minute 6:10 The thing was Terran went for a 13 and a 14 Rax, got 2 Marines to deny any scouting and then added Reactor+Techlab and another Barracks, I only saw a 13 Barracks and a Marine. This is where Huk's expansion is so brilliant, you get 4Gates really fast and have 2 Stalkers to scout, then you can have up to 10 Units as your Terran buddy arrives, sure you cut a ton of probes and spend all chronoboost on your Warpgates etc, your Eco sux for a fast Nexus but you will survive! If you don't need that many Units you are about equal with a 28ish food Nexus due to Chronoboost usage(more on Probes with later Nexus). Sidenote: Zealot+Stalker Preassure should never work against a Terran. It can do damage only if he messes up. He either should greet you with a Bunker or Concussive Shells. Either way you don't do damage and if he has concussive and tricks you you lost the game right there.
This post is misguided. You can get as many gateways as you want with my opening--you just get them faster than you would with zealot-stalker-stalker. I only specified the timing for the second gateway because after that point, you're free to transition however you think makes sense. You'll see in the replay that I got 4 gateways so that I could counter-attack after defending, and I could have had gates #3 and 4 much earlier than I started them.
Also, I don't know why you weren't able to scout a 13 and 14 rax unless one was proxied. Please post a replay if you find something that you can't defend with this opening. I play a lot of GM Terrans, and I defend all of their pressure builds easily.
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EPT
