The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
so this build really has no point in my opinion.
This just isn't at all true. You absolutely can deal easily with fast marauders with this opening. Like I said, I almost never pull probes. The only time I would pull probes is if T brings 2-3 SCV's at the 2 marauder timing (at which I have 1z/1s/1s) and starts multi-bunkering immediately, in which case I'll consider pulling 2-3 probes to clean it up. Hell, even if you're not keeping tabs on the low ground and let them get bunkers up, you can usually clean it up fine at 6 min w/o pulling probes.
Post a replay if you're struggling against something.
in what world do 1z/1s/1s beat 1scv, 1 marine and 2 marauders? marauders focus the stalker and then you will loose the other 2 units if you dont use probes. you kill the marine and the scv and that's it. if the terran walks up a ramp with this he is loosing of course. if he stays on the low ground and starts bunkering, you have to react and you just loose (without using probes). with 1 zealot 2 stalkers this looks different.
Thanks so much for this guide. I've been doing Creator's 1-gate expand from the GSTL semi finals ever since I saw them, which is a Zealot-Stalker-Stalker variant, but I almost never get any utility out of the second Stalker except for the rare free Marine kills against a bad or overly greedy opponent, so I've been thinking about ways to skip that out and still be safe against early pressure. If you're holding GM pressure with this, I'll be just fine in my little bunker all the way at the bottom of the Diamond league.
On November 17 2011 01:45 trinxified wrote: Is there a reason not to do 1gate fe against terran at all? I'm only mid masters, and I have a bit trouble with PvT
Against obvious marine scv all ins or proxy buildings, 1 gate FE is not that good (;D). 1 gate FE is so common now that I've seen a few pro games where Terran does his 2 rax reactor techlab with the techlabbed barracks proxied. It's quite deadly.
On November 16 2011 12:13 Complete wrote: I've been working on 1g FE recently!
This isn't quite safe IMO, the most aggressive 2raxes will have 3 marauders 9 marines, x scv's at ~6:30 at your nat (on a non-huge map). You will only have 2 zealots 3 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield). Or he'll have 3 marauders 11 marines, x scv's at 6:45 in your nat vs 2 zealots 5 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield).
You can hold maybe if you see it coming and pull a good amount of probes, but you will lose a LOT of probes. Especially if he sends ~3 scv's.
Did you watch the replay? I haven't counted the units, but Pokebunny is a good T player that was doing the aggressive 2-rax with 2nd rax before supply depot and reactor after 1st marine. I'm pretty sure that's the optimal BO, and that anything that hits harder would probably fall into the category of cheese that you need to scout and react (ie not expand) against.
If he builds the raxes next to his ramp and builds an SCV instead of an OC and gets the 2nd rax faster it's ~15 seconds quicker.
I guess my issue with this build is that if you scout on 13 on a 4 player map (say antiga) you won't be able to get up his ramp scouting him 2nd/3rd position to see what addons he has, if he took a gas, if he built an aggressive 2nd rax. This puts you in a pinch, because if you build an early 3rd gate you can hold an aggressive 2rax if you don't build a quick robo, but if you didn't see the addons you can't know he isn't going cloak bancheese so you need to build a quick robo...
@WratihofAuir in the real world? You just have to micro and not get your stalker tagged easily.
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
so this build really has no point in my opinion.
This just isn't at all true. You absolutely can deal easily with fast marauders with this opening. Like I said, I almost never pull probes. The only time I would pull probes is if T brings 2-3 SCV's at the 2 marauder timing (at which I have 1z/1s/1s) and starts multi-bunkering immediately, in which case I'll consider pulling 2-3 probes to clean it up. Hell, even if you're not keeping tabs on the low ground and let them get bunkers up, you can usually clean it up fine at 6 min w/o pulling probes.
Post a replay if you're struggling against something.
in what world do 1z/1s/1s beat 1scv, 1 marine and 2 marauders? marauders focus the stalker and then you will loose the other 2 units if you dont use probes. you kill the marine and the scv and that's it. if the terran walks up a ramp with this he is loosing of course. if he stays on the low ground and starts bunkering, you have to react and you just loose (without using probes). with 1 zealot 2 stalkers this looks different.
Just don't do that fight. If he comes up your ramp, it's easy to beat, and if he stays down and bunkers, bring ~5 probes and win.
I just ran about 5 tests with Monk doing that sort of pressure bringing 3 SCVs, and it's actually quite difficult to defend, but it can be done. He won most of them, but they were my first games of the day, and I was playing poorly. Here's what I recommend: put a probe on a watch tower if you can to see what's coming and how many SCVs he's bringing, pull enough probes to kill the units with your zealot and stalker, and focus the SCVs down with the sentry to prevent the bunker from completing. I recommend grabbing a practice partner and running through it until you're comfortable executing because it's not easy to do.
Of course, in order to for a zealot-stalker-stalker build to be more safe against the same pressure, you'd wind up with about 3 fewer probes. Since it's much easier to defend that pressure with zealot-stalker-stalker, my build is arguably worse against that marauder pressure, but IMO, it is possible to defend that push, and against everything else, my build is significantly better.
I find that a one gate expand is weak to an aggressive 2 rax. If you delay your expansion for a second gateway then you can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 3 sentries at 5:50, with a 2 unit warp in to come.
I think 1 gate expands work because terran players like to build a marine to deny your scouting, even if they are doing a simple two rax build.
For example, I am no terran player, but even I can quickly load up a game against the AI and do a build that gives me 4 marauders (with concussive), 2 marines and 2 scvs at my opponents natural before 5:50, with an expansion going up behind it and more units on their way. All it takes is skipping the marines and going straight for the addons. As such, i like to get 2 gates and some sentries out early.
That said, it might be due to my reluctance to bring probes to the fight. I suppose I should just be less scared of fast marauder builds and be prepared to pull more probes?
On November 17 2011 05:46 hzflank wrote: I find that a one gate expand is weak to an aggressive 2 rax. If you delay your expansion for a second gateway then you can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 3 sentries at 5:50, with a 2 unit warp in to come.
I think 1 gate expands work because terran players like to build a marine to deny your scouting, even if they are doing a simple two rax build.
For example, I am no terran player, but even I can quickly load up a game against the AI and do a build that gives me 4 marauders (with concussive), 2 marines and 2 scvs at my opponents natural before 5:50, with an expansion going up behind it and more units on their way. All it takes is skipping the marines and going straight for the addons. As such, i like to get 2 gates and some sentries out early.
That said, it might be due to my reluctance to bring probes to the fight. I suppose I should just be less scared of fast marauder builds and be prepared to pull more probes?
You are aware that any player above silver would scout what you are doing given that you skipped the marine and could easily prepare for it?
On November 17 2011 05:46 hzflank wrote: I find that a one gate expand is weak to an aggressive 2 rax. If you delay your expansion for a second gateway then you can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 3 sentries at 5:50, with a 2 unit warp in to come.
I think 1 gate expands work because terran players like to build a marine to deny your scouting, even if they are doing a simple two rax build.
For example, I am no terran player, but even I can quickly load up a game against the AI and do a build that gives me 4 marauders (with concussive), 2 marines and 2 scvs at my opponents natural before 5:50, with an expansion going up behind it and more units on their way. All it takes is skipping the marines and going straight for the addons. As such, i like to get 2 gates and some sentries out early.
That said, it might be due to my reluctance to bring probes to the fight. I suppose I should just be less scared of fast marauder builds and be prepared to pull more probes?
You are aware that any player above silver would scout what you are doing given that you skipped the marine and could easily prepare for it?
exactly, if i saw someone doing that, i would just abandon the idea of a 1rax expand and go 2gate robo expand, delaying the expansion but being significantly safer in the end
On November 17 2011 02:53 kcdc wrote: ... and against everything else, my build is significantly better.
and that's exactly what I am doubting
your build is somewhere in the middle. it isn't the best build against any of the terrans builds. but it's kinda OK against everything they can throw at you. I don't say it's a bad build, just that I don't see the point.
Of course you can't scout what the terran is doing, but I'd rather go for a specific build with an edge over something which is most likely to come from the terran based on map and spawn positions than doing your build.
in the video you linked the protoss does not go for a 1 gate expand like suggested here. it's with gateway, but without core (which is total bullshit btw if you dont scout anything).
I would just evacuate all probes to the main and hold the ramp with sentries and laugh at the terran? if he contains you, get a proxy pylon up somewhere and counterattack or a robo for warpprism or immortals. don't forget to collect your freewin after that.
On November 17 2011 02:53 kcdc wrote: ... and against everything else, my build is significantly better.
and that's exactly what I am doubting
your build is somewhere in the middle. it isn't the best build against any of the terrans builds. but it's kinda OK against everything they can throw at you. I don't say it's a bad build, just that I don't see the point.
Of course you can't scout what the terran is doing, but I'd rather go for a specific build with an edge over something which is most likely to come from the terran based on map and spawn positions than doing your build.
I don't get this comment. Although I don't necessarily agree with kcdc that his build is significantly better, I don't understand what you could possibly mean. Kcdc's build is a "greedy" 1 gate fe. What other builds would you suggest? Non 1 gate fe builds? Voidray allins? Even greedier 1 gate fes?
on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
Talking about the Zealot/Stalker/Stalker vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry could we not simply...just...well, chrono out a second stalker if we see him throw down a tech lab after his first marine? I'm not 100% sure how the timings line up, but you'll have the minerals and gas at that timing (it might delay your expo a bit, but that's worth it isn't it?)
Logic behind this from my PoV anyway: the tech lab 2 rax seems less scary to me, since there's less marines mixed in and marauders are easier to clean up in smaller numbers at that point in the game (imo, anyway) so it's worth delaying your expo to make that poke just that much less scary?
Correct me if I'm wrong, my Terran buddy isn't online atm to test this
(Might have to 9 scout to be sure he's going tech lab on bigger maps though? But isn't 9 vs 13 scout only a ~30 mineral difference anyway? It doesn't delay my cyber core anyway...just a case of delaying the second chrono to be after the gateway)
Thanks for the "update", very interesting, so many patches have been implemented, sometimes you are simply confused about what adaptation you need, and what is still valid and what is not, this type of work is very useful off course.
On November 17 2011 23:27 Rohan wrote: Talking about the Zealot/Stalker/Stalker vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry could we not simply...just...well, chrono out a second stalker if we see him throw down a tech lab after his first marine? I'm not 100% sure how the timings line up, but you'll have the minerals and gas at that timing (it might delay your expo a bit, but that's worth it isn't it?)
Logic behind this from my PoV anyway: the tech lab 2 rax seems less scary to me, since there's less marines mixed in and marauders are easier to clean up in smaller numbers at that point in the game (imo, anyway) so it's worth delaying your expo to make that poke just that much less scary?
Correct me if I'm wrong, my Terran buddy isn't online atm to test this
(Might have to 9 scout to be sure he's going tech lab on bigger maps though? But isn't 9 vs 13 scout only a ~30 mineral difference anyway? It doesn't delay my cyber core anyway...just a case of delaying the second chrono to be after the gateway)
You can't reliably scout what addon he adds after the first marine.
On November 17 2011 23:27 Rohan wrote: Talking about the Zealot/Stalker/Stalker vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry could we not simply...just...well, chrono out a second stalker if we see him throw down a tech lab after his first marine? I'm not 100% sure how the timings line up, but you'll have the minerals and gas at that timing (it might delay your expo a bit, but that's worth it isn't it?)
Logic behind this from my PoV anyway: the tech lab 2 rax seems less scary to me, since there's less marines mixed in and marauders are easier to clean up in smaller numbers at that point in the game (imo, anyway) so it's worth delaying your expo to make that poke just that much less scary?
Correct me if I'm wrong, my Terran buddy isn't online atm to test this
(Might have to 9 scout to be sure he's going tech lab on bigger maps though? But isn't 9 vs 13 scout only a ~30 mineral difference anyway? It doesn't delay my cyber core anyway...just a case of delaying the second chrono to be after the gateway)
and how do you plan on scouting the add-on after the first marine is out? sure if he lets you see it, you can make the right decision, but in most cases you won't be able to see it. that's why we discuss the pros and cons of this build against the different openings the terran CAN do.
On November 17 2011 22:53 WrathOfAiur wrote: on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
The 20 or 22 food nexus expands need to cut probes for quite a while in order to be safe. I doubt that they're more economical than this build, but you can run a test. My goal with this build is to get the maximum possible economy while being safe against everything. If you know another build that's safe and gets more econ, please post it.
EPT
