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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
The key for me is to harass the opponent and throw them off their game. All the while you expand, you can throw down some canons if you like or do what you feel most comfortable with. What do you guys like, and why? One base push or a macro game for this style? | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
but otherwise i think it's best to expand... that's still not necessarily a 'macro' game tho.. also, I'm not sure if there's a 'timing' to hit except for blink, but that's not really as good defensively (as opposed to anti harass) so i'm not sure if it's super relevant anyway the most common game arc i see (both of us 3 gates) is him robo=>blink=>attack w archon and for myself I go stargate => nex => robo =>cols later.. | ||
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Vathus
Canada404 Posts
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[KGS]Slacker
Denmark82 Posts
I haven't tried playing against Blink, so can't really help you there. Check the following guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193103 I personally don't like holding off a 4 gate by just endlessly FFing my ramp, so I open Geiko's 3 gate build. But the midgame stuff he writes about is pretty useful. | ||
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MagickMan
Australia498 Posts
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Dredrick
United States32 Posts
On November 10 2011 11:32 [KGS]Slacker wrote: I personally don't like holding off a 4 gate by just endlessly FFing my ramp, so I open Geiko's 3 gate build. But the midgame stuff he writes about is pretty useful. I understand where your coming from, but you should seriously reconsider. Compare 1gate Stargate, and 3gate Stargate with me for a moment. Your opponent opens 4gate. -1Gate: You hold it with a lot of sentries and Forcefields. You are ahead in worker count, you have a lot of sentries for midgame, but only slightly ahead on tech (faster 2nd gas, but a lot of sentries) -3Gate: You hold the 4gate easily with only 1-2 sentries. You are ahead on worker count, have a similar overall army size to your opponent, but are on even tech. Your opponent opens expansion. 1Gate: You can counter-expand if you scout quickly enough, or will have a signifigant tech advantage, and can try and do enough economic damage to counterexpand on equal footing, or you can go all-in. 3Gate: Your army is big, but probably NOT big enough to all-in and kill most expansion builds by good players. Your opponent opens Tech (blink/obs, collosus, immortals, or phoenix) 1Gate: You are equal or ahead. 3Gate: You are behind. This is just my opinion of course, but it comes from experience. Edit: For clarification sake, I'm not suggesting that you stay 1 gateway vs a 4gate every game, but I don't think that you are in any particular hurry to get your 2nd gate (which is enough to hold a 4gate), and I don't feel a 3rd is needed unless you are just absolutely not confident in your control, or forcefields. | ||
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Pesto
United States121 Posts
I like playing robo to get a safe expo out, ezmode defend 4gate etc. Then transition to phoenix after scouting collo on 2 base. Because immortals are basically as good as collo now without thermal lance, you can defend any timings and have time for mass phoenix before thermal lance is done (+1 air attack when possible). After a certain point you have unlimited graviton beam; enough for insane probe harass, enough to pick off all the AA in a collosus army and kite the collo with your ground army until ready to engage. I find it really fun to play. So effective in my experience that I am curious what the proper reaction to it from a collo teching toss would be. (Archons probably awesome). | ||
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dainbramage
Australia1442 Posts
Also games where both players go for fast phoenixes can become really silly. | ||
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LanTAs
United States1091 Posts
Don't do a macro game with stargate, you get straight up owned since you have only pesky phoenixes and no real dmg dealer like colosi, a 2 colosi no range all in can straight up kill you. Oh, and don't ever do a blind stargate dts ruin your day if he manages to get them and blink stalkers deny your chances at harassing. Masters toss here hope that helps. | ||
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Dredrick
United States32 Posts
On November 10 2011 12:44 LanTAs wrote: Use phoenix if you see 3 gate robo, and you have a small timing window between first immortal and first colosi, so its a good two minutes to kill him. Don't do a macro game with stargate, you get straight up owned since you have only pesky phoenixes and no real dmg dealer like colosi, a 2 colosi no range all in can straight up kill you. Oh, and don't ever do a blind stargate dts ruin your day if he manages to get them and blink stalkers deny your chances at harassing. Masters toss here hope that helps. I'm sorry, but I disagree with literally everything you said here. 1) You cant react to robo with stargate, it's way too late. You need them early to build up energy and get a good number out. 2) Pheonix do tons of damage lol, especially to zealots. They have the same DPS vs armored units as stalkers do, so even though they aren't as cost effective there, they still work fine. There's no reason you don't open phoenix and then transition chargelot archon, or collosus later. It works fine. And the insinuation that 2 collosus all-in beats phoenix play is frankly laughable. This does not work ever unless the phoenix player gives the game away by suiciding units or forgetting to make probes after 16 maybe..... 3) Blind stargate is 100% safe Dark Templar. If you scout wtih your phoenix when they come out, and you don't see an expo, you build a robo. You're usually starting the robo when the Dark Shrine is about half done, and if you don't think that's fast enough then your wrong. You might have to block the ramp with units, or forcefields to stop him from killing a single probe, but even if he gets in your still going to be ahead. I'm not just talking here, I've tested every one of these situations multiple times. If you still disagree, then go actually try to do it yourself before you misinform other players. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
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Dredrick
United States32 Posts
On November 10 2011 13:52 BoondockVeritas wrote: When I'm feeling rather bold I like to open 2 gate stargate if I don't think he's 4gating and then change it up depending on what i see. If he's chilling on one base I get phoenix/zealot/few sentries to defend while harassing and obs if I suspect dt (scout whole map so he can't proxy a shrine somewhere, phoenix are pretty quick). If I see him expo i make 4-5 phoenix and then just stalkers constantly from 2-3 gates and shove after trying to snipe sentries. I'm terrible though and not even masters so The thing about scouting the Dark Shrine is that it doesn't really matter exactly what tech he's doing, you should get the robo after stargate. The only two things that you don't want the robo vs are a Greedy Expansion, that your going to go all-in vs instead of counterexpanding (since you want to be able to reinforce on site, not wait for the immortals to walk to your enemy's base) and collosus (because he's just going to have so many zealots that the immortal isn't going to be able to target his stalkers or collosus). Basically what it means is that if you scout, and it's not an expansion, then you probably need to build the robo just to be safe, since you won't lose to a collosus push BECAUSE you built a robo, and it will keep you safe vs blink or DT or other shenanigans. | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
On November 10 2011 12:53 Dredrick wrote: I'm sorry, but I disagree with literally everything you said here. 1) You cant react to robo with stargate, it's way too late. You need them early to build up energy and get a good number out. 2) Pheonix do tons of damage lol, especially to zealots. They have the same DPS vs armored units as stalkers do, so even though they aren't as cost effective there, they still work fine. There's no reason you don't open phoenix and then transition chargelot archon, or collosus later. It works fine. And the insinuation that 2 collosus all-in beats phoenix play is frankly laughable. This does not work ever unless the phoenix player gives the game away by suiciding units or forgetting to make probes after 16 maybe..... 3) Blind stargate is 100% safe Dark Templar. If you scout wtih your phoenix when they come out, and you don't see an expo, you build a robo. You're usually starting the robo when the Dark Shrine is about half done, and if you don't think that's fast enough then your wrong. You might have to block the ramp with units, or forcefields to stop him from killing a single probe, but even if he gets in your still going to be ahead. I'm not just talking here, I've tested every one of these situations multiple times. If you still disagree, then go actually try to do it yourself before you misinform other players. Dredrick is right here.... Literally everything the other guy wrote is totally wrong..I almost wonder if this was put here to intentionally win some pvps lol... I have issues with number 3 because I'd rather wait to reveal my phoenix to maximize damage, putting them on attack paths to my base until I get 3, and put a blind forge while cutting units/expanding.. Also, I stick with 3gate because there's a window where you can't really get accurate scouting information on your opponent and it is much safer while still preserving the phoenix advantage... However noone says you have to use all your gates all the time, youre playing protoss, not terrran... That being said sniping sentries and getting up the ramp is super easy with 5 phx, or even less really, but 5 1shots... | ||
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[KGS]Slacker
Denmark82 Posts
On November 10 2011 12:10 Dredrick wrote: I understand where your coming from, but you should seriously reconsider. Compare 1gate Stargate, and 3gate Stargate with me for a moment. Your opponent opens 4gate. -1Gate: You hold it with a lot of sentries and Forcefields. You are ahead in worker count, you have a lot of sentries for midgame, but only slightly ahead on tech (faster 2nd gas, but a lot of sentries) -3Gate: You hold the 4gate easily with only 1-2 sentries. You are ahead on worker count, have a similar overall army size to your opponent, but are on even tech. Your opponent opens expansion. 1Gate: You can counter-expand if you scout quickly enough, or will have a signifigant tech advantage, and can try and do enough economic damage to counterexpand on equal footing, or you can go all-in. 3Gate: Your army is big, but probably NOT big enough to all-in and kill most expansion builds by good players. Your opponent opens Tech (blink/obs, collosus, immortals, or phoenix) 1Gate: You are equal or ahead. 3Gate: You are behind. This is just my opinion of course, but it comes from experience. Edit: For clarification sake, I'm not suggesting that you stay 1 gateway vs a 4gate every game, but I don't think that you are in any particular hurry to get your 2nd gate (which is enough to hold a 4gate), and I don't feel a 3rd is needed unless you are just absolutely not confident in your control, or forcefields. I agree, I try to scout with my probe until his stalker is out and if I see a 2nd gas or something suggesting a 4 gate is not coming, I'll take my 2nd gas asap and throw down the stargate with my next 150 gas. When going 1 gate stargate, when do you get a 2nd gate? Do you scout with your first phoenix and react to his build? I'd love to see some replays/VODs against different builds if you have any. I'll try and look through the VODs on Axslavs stream to see if I can find any games where he goes 1 gate stargate. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Robo will make you safe against dt and give you a better edge against blink but getting it early throws away some of your advantage against robo (normally you can just do a timing push and straight out win). It's also pretty bad if it's stargate against stargate. In pvp I feel that some of strategies where you take two techs quickly are the safest overall but pay for being too generic against certain strats with just 1 tech. For example 1 gate robo into twilight for quick blink stalker with obs is very safe. Robo tech is good against anything except stargate and by going quick twilight you get options to counter stargate play quite well, the twilight makes you weaker against pure robo or pure blink though because they can just expand before you do. Stargate + robo is generic in safe in that same way, you got game against anything but you'll always be only slightly behind or slightly ahead. As far as the original question goes, i think you are best off being aggresive with a phoenix opening whenever possible. Phoenix are best at abusing a timing where the other thought he was safe because of sentries. Harassing does very minimal damage usually, first of all he can remake probes really easily (he was usually not making them at that time anymore) and secondly you can't kill too many probes because your energy runs out. Killing a few probes and then dying on the counterattack for lack of energy is a always a risk. When macroing with phoenix you throw away their timing too much imo, in huge fights they are simply not that good and the fact they don't benefit from upgrades also makes them a bit worse in long games. For what build to go for stargate I just go gate - stargate - gate. I skip sentries entirely. I only do stargate play anyway when I'm fairly certain there won't be a 4 gate. It's the worst tech by far against 3 or 4 gate pressure because you need a critical amount of phoenix before you can do anything. Multiple gateways into expand is also quite decent against stargate so even if you invest in lots of sentries to hold it off and he backs off he can simply go expo and be ahead, therefore i only recommend stargate when you've seen at least 3 chrono on the nexus, a normal to late cybercore (from a 13 or 14 gate) and a quick 2nd gas. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
Well that's the experience I made when playing stargate myself or facing it. Thoughts? | ||
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EpicFail83
8 Posts
http://drop.sc/55964 http://drop.sc/55963 | ||
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Dredrick
United States32 Posts
On November 10 2011 19:03 [KGS]Slacker wrote: I agree, I try to scout with my probe until his stalker is out and if I see a 2nd gas or something suggesting a 4 gate is not coming, I'll take my 2nd gas asap and throw down the stargate with my next 150 gas. When going 1 gate stargate, when do you get a 2nd gate? Do you scout with your first phoenix and react to his build? I'd love to see some replays/VODs against different builds if you have any. I'll try and look through the VODs on Axslavs stream to see if I can find any games where he goes 1 gate stargate. Axslav does Phoenix in almost every single PvP he plays on his stream (except Tal Darim) so it really won't be hard to find. I've taken a lot of aspects from his Phoenix play and added them to mine own since watching his stream so I play the opening near identical to how he does now. I could try and explain it all, but it's probably better to just learn from the man himself. To be somewhat helpful though, when you have the money after your stargate is down, you can pretty much just drop your 2nd gateway. All your trying to build at this point (assuming 4gate) is Zealot->Stalker->Stalker->Sentry until you have 5-6, and Probes, and Pheonix once the stargate is done, so you should have the minerals for that 2nd gateway fairly easily without cutting anything else. On November 10 2011 20:10 Ada wrote: Imo the best response to phoenix play is to counter attack soon after you spoted the phoenix. Get a obs out of your robo and maybe one immortal. If you can snipe a phoenix that's good, but best is to let him "waste" his energy on probes, than put down 2 more gates and move out. With many phoenix in the air without energy you should be able to push him really hard, and a obs over his choke helps pushing even more vs limited forcefields. Well that's the experience I made when playing stargate myself or facing it. Thoughts? Hmm, I don't know. You're going to take an economic hit from the initial phoenix harass, and if you move out like this, there are two problems. 1) Every phoenix after the initial 2 will probably not blow their energy on the lift, because he WILL know exactly when you move out. They're flying 4.25 movespeed units, anyone with 40+ apm will be able to keep perfect scouting on your army. I'll just keep chronoboosting out Phoenix vs this attack, and by the time you show up I'll definitly have at least 4 phoenix, two with energy, and the two from the start will have been out so long that they probably almost have energy for a lift again. 2) You have no way up his ramp at all... This is why pushes are really not viable in PvP, your opponent is just going to be able to forcefield you outside his ramp all day long, because when you move out if he doesn't have enough sentries, he can just warp in more off of 3 gateways. If you really want to take the fight too him, your only option is to try and set up a sentry contain outside his base while you expand yourself, but even that I don't recommend, since once he gets up a count of about 6-8 phoenix (not as hard as it might sound, and it will happen before your expansion gets anywhere near paying dividends) then he can just blitz you and lift all your sentries to pick them off, and prevent you from dropping your force fields, letting him move out and bust your contain. That's what I would do at least. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
I feel like his opening is different each time, but I can't get a grip of what he is scouting to change the BO. Thanks! | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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barcacl2006
United Kingdom25 Posts
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SirGarTheBold
7 Posts
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On November 10 2011 09:13 Balgrog wrote: So This has not been discussed a whole lot, but I want to discuss PvP stargate play. Do People prefer to do a one base timing push with this, or go into a macro game. I have lately been using it to force the opponent into a macro game. I do this by a) using the phoenix's to pick off stray units. b) killing probes on gas (this is big to force the opponent to a macro game if they are depending on a 1 base collosus push. c) harrasing mis-micro'd collosus. The key for me is to harass the opponent and throw them off their game. All the while you expand, you can throw down some canons if you like or do what you feel most comfortable with. What do you guys like, and why? One base push or a macro game for this style? This is exactly what I've been doing for a while and it caught lots of ppl off guard. I didn't know anything about this build and I just basically do it cuz I'm tired of 4 gates and it work very well. I mean you could be vulnerable against 4 gates, but against robot, you'd be in a really good situation to keep your opponent in base and macro up freely. If they attack with immortal, normally your phoenixes could stop all the FFs and immortal with good micro. And you could FF by yourself too! But you have to be very controlling with this build and good scouting. Also I wanna add in late game if both turtle and the other guy goes for colossus, you should add Archon/zealots/immortals and a few VRs, use VR to target the colossus cuz they do extra damage. Phoenixes should not be more than 6 in late game 200 vs 200 cuz you don't have much to do with it so just pick up sentries and A move the rest. | ||
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RaKooNs
United Kingdom397 Posts
On November 10 2011 13:13 Easytouch1500 wrote: I completely agree with Dredrick. EG.Axslav opens 1 gate phoenix all the time and doesn't scout until his second phoenix. However, he still easily gets lots of probe kills vs blink builds (though of course it is more difficult and more risky), kills 1 base colossi, gets obs in time for DTS and is able to defend both 4gate and blink all ins. no possible way to open up stargate and get an obs out quickly effectively. fastest dt comes at 7:30 | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:01 RaKooNs wrote: no possible way to open up stargate and get an obs out quickly effectively. fastest dt comes at 7:30 No harder than with robo blink. You can easily doubletech. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
So in other words, "phoenix harass into macro" isn't really a good build, because it wastes the offensive potential of the phoenix. The best way to play phoenix IMO is to just 1 base and attack for the win. There's 2 main styles of this - phoenix 4 gate, and phoenix/immortal. First, the phoenix 4 gate basically just involves getting to ~25 probes (so not complete full saturation), going up to 4 gateways with a stargate, and attacking with 3-5 phoenixes and zealot/stalker. Phoenixes go in and kill sentries, and then you can safely go up the ramp and just overwhelm your opponent. If your opponent has gone for a FE or techy build like robo blink, then he will have an extremely hard time defending since all his resources have been spent on tech and research (robo, obs, council, blink) and he simply wont have enough units to defend your attack. This is not really a gimmicky build like other 1 base all-ins such as warp prism 4 gate or blink all-in because even if you scout it, there's not too much you can do about it, and it'll just come down to a micro battle (compared to warp prism 4 gate - scout the edge of your base and kill the warp prism, or blink all-in - FF your ramp). It does get countered by DTs, but you can solve that problem by scouting with your first phoenix. Second, phoenix/immortal is a stronger attack that comes a bit later. With this build you do go to full saturation, and attack with 5+ phoenix and 2-3 immortals with zealot/stalker/sentry. You can harass a bit with this build if you want. The standard reaction to seeing phoenix is to expand, but then it'll be tough to hold off the phoenix/immortal composition. Cannons don't help since immortals counter those. Blink stalker/immortal doesn't work because your immortals will get nullified and then it'll be stalker/immortal against you with just stalkers. Switching to chargelot/archon is probably your best bet but phoenixes are great against zealots. So with this build, if your opponent tries to expand before you, you simply go and kill it and win - otherwise you can try just busting up his ramp with your superior composition, or just semi-containing him and expanding yourself if he turtles hard on top of his ramp. I know a lot of people are wondering about good phoenix builds but honestly I don't think that should be a big issue. Obviously if your opponent is 4 gating you're not going to do 1 gate star. Just do your favorite normal build (such as defensive 3 gate against a 4 gate, or 1 gate robo against a tech build), but at the time when you normally get a robo or a twilight, get a stargate instead. Then chrono out your phoenixes and you're good. Here's 2 recent reps showing some phoenix play. They're not the best examples but it's all I can quickly find from recent games. http://drop.sc/57612 http://drop.sc/57613 | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
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Coramoor
Canada455 Posts
as long as they don't proxy it, you have plenty of time to scout it http://drop.sc/57699 http://drop.sc/57698 http://drop.sc/57697 these are three varied examples from the korean server where people basically only do this build on certain maps I really hope they're right, having trouble figuring the maps out in a language i can't read Only mid diamond on korean but it's still really solid play | ||
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Dredrick
United States32 Posts
On November 11 2011 18:16 coL.rsvp wrote: Phoenix play in PvP is really really strong right now. I'd even go as far as to say that phoenix/immortal can be considered a "standard" build that really has no hard counters, just like the popular blink robo. I think people misunderstand the phoenix especially in PvP - most players think it's only a harass unit that's a weak fighter. On the contrary, in most cases it should not be used to harass at all (energy is better spent on units rather than probes), and in fact it's a very strong fighter - a phoenix has about the same DPS against non-bonus targets than stalkers do against bonus targets (i.e. armored). Phoenix is just so amazingly effective in those early-mid game battles. It kills zealots really fast. Deals with sentries even faster. Instantly removes immortals from the battle. Helps to negate blink. In small scale battles, pure blink stalkers can easily defeat an equally valued non-blink stalker/zealot army. However, pure blink stalkers will not be able to defeat an equally valued stalker/zealot/phoenix army. Yesssssssss... I agree with everything here except one point. Pheonix are super strong and so many players fail to see the advantage of denying blink micro with phoenix in the open ground. That is what makes phoenix viable vs Blink Stalkers, and effectively why there isn't a hard-counter to phoenix. The one thing I don't agree with is that you they shouldn't be used to harass. I understand your point and I agree very much with the idea, but I would insinuate that if you are very familiar and comfortable with Pheonix player, you can find small opportunities to harass throughout the game. I do agree with the main idea though, that you need to recognize phoenix as a fighting unit first, and harassment second, which requires you to conserve their "ammunition". On November 11 2011 18:16 coL.rsvp wrote: So in other words, "phoenix harass into macro" isn't really a good build, because it wastes the offensive potential of the phoenix. The best way to play phoenix IMO is to just 1 base and attack for the win. I think this is the main difference between how I run Pheonix and how I see Axslav doing it. You can abuse a relatively small weakness from your opponent with Pheonix play, and get a lot of wins off punishing them. Phoenix just work so well in mid sized armies before your opponent can really MASS up a ton of zealots that it is quite easy to go for the kill. I don't know about cannons not helping though, because if your opponent's positioning is well, then it can be a little hard to get the immortals to take out the cannons without letting them get hit by zealots, but it's nothing impossible. vs something like a later immortal or ESPECIALLY a collosus expand that he spends resource on too many cannons for defense, I've done a nifty little trick where I take my sizeable pheonix force (6-8ish) that had a lot of energy, and mass raided his main for something like 14 probe kills, and counter expanded. It worked out pretty well, leaving my opponent pretty crippled and when you have that many phoenix your energy regeneration is pretty impressive really. Might not be super good vs really good players but I think it can work. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
On November 11 2011 03:56 Chronald wrote: Does anyone have a recommendation of a good game(s) from Axslav's stream that I can watch to figure out the BO? I feel like his opening is different each time, but I can't get a grip of what he is scouting to change the BO. Thanks! the build order is usually something as follows (assuming you don't suspect 4g) 13 gate (2 chronoes before gate) 14 gas 16 pylon (chrono workers again) 17sh core 2nd gas zealot. Once core finishes get stalker and WG research (chrono stalker) Right before stalker finishes you should be able to get SG. Sentry 2nd gate soon after. | ||
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Nickm89
United States6 Posts
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