EPT[D] PvP Stargate play. One base vs. Macro game - Page 2
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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barcacl2006
United Kingdom25 Posts
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SirGarTheBold
7 Posts
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On November 10 2011 09:13 Balgrog wrote: So This has not been discussed a whole lot, but I want to discuss PvP stargate play. Do People prefer to do a one base timing push with this, or go into a macro game. I have lately been using it to force the opponent into a macro game. I do this by a) using the phoenix's to pick off stray units. b) killing probes on gas (this is big to force the opponent to a macro game if they are depending on a 1 base collosus push. c) harrasing mis-micro'd collosus. The key for me is to harass the opponent and throw them off their game. All the while you expand, you can throw down some canons if you like or do what you feel most comfortable with. What do you guys like, and why? One base push or a macro game for this style? This is exactly what I've been doing for a while and it caught lots of ppl off guard. I didn't know anything about this build and I just basically do it cuz I'm tired of 4 gates and it work very well. I mean you could be vulnerable against 4 gates, but against robot, you'd be in a really good situation to keep your opponent in base and macro up freely. If they attack with immortal, normally your phoenixes could stop all the FFs and immortal with good micro. And you could FF by yourself too! But you have to be very controlling with this build and good scouting. Also I wanna add in late game if both turtle and the other guy goes for colossus, you should add Archon/zealots/immortals and a few VRs, use VR to target the colossus cuz they do extra damage. Phoenixes should not be more than 6 in late game 200 vs 200 cuz you don't have much to do with it so just pick up sentries and A move the rest. | ||
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RaKooNs
United Kingdom397 Posts
On November 10 2011 13:13 Easytouch1500 wrote: I completely agree with Dredrick. EG.Axslav opens 1 gate phoenix all the time and doesn't scout until his second phoenix. However, he still easily gets lots of probe kills vs blink builds (though of course it is more difficult and more risky), kills 1 base colossi, gets obs in time for DTS and is able to defend both 4gate and blink all ins. no possible way to open up stargate and get an obs out quickly effectively. fastest dt comes at 7:30 | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:01 RaKooNs wrote: no possible way to open up stargate and get an obs out quickly effectively. fastest dt comes at 7:30 No harder than with robo blink. You can easily doubletech. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
So in other words, "phoenix harass into macro" isn't really a good build, because it wastes the offensive potential of the phoenix. The best way to play phoenix IMO is to just 1 base and attack for the win. There's 2 main styles of this - phoenix 4 gate, and phoenix/immortal. First, the phoenix 4 gate basically just involves getting to ~25 probes (so not complete full saturation), going up to 4 gateways with a stargate, and attacking with 3-5 phoenixes and zealot/stalker. Phoenixes go in and kill sentries, and then you can safely go up the ramp and just overwhelm your opponent. If your opponent has gone for a FE or techy build like robo blink, then he will have an extremely hard time defending since all his resources have been spent on tech and research (robo, obs, council, blink) and he simply wont have enough units to defend your attack. This is not really a gimmicky build like other 1 base all-ins such as warp prism 4 gate or blink all-in because even if you scout it, there's not too much you can do about it, and it'll just come down to a micro battle (compared to warp prism 4 gate - scout the edge of your base and kill the warp prism, or blink all-in - FF your ramp). It does get countered by DTs, but you can solve that problem by scouting with your first phoenix. Second, phoenix/immortal is a stronger attack that comes a bit later. With this build you do go to full saturation, and attack with 5+ phoenix and 2-3 immortals with zealot/stalker/sentry. You can harass a bit with this build if you want. The standard reaction to seeing phoenix is to expand, but then it'll be tough to hold off the phoenix/immortal composition. Cannons don't help since immortals counter those. Blink stalker/immortal doesn't work because your immortals will get nullified and then it'll be stalker/immortal against you with just stalkers. Switching to chargelot/archon is probably your best bet but phoenixes are great against zealots. So with this build, if your opponent tries to expand before you, you simply go and kill it and win - otherwise you can try just busting up his ramp with your superior composition, or just semi-containing him and expanding yourself if he turtles hard on top of his ramp. I know a lot of people are wondering about good phoenix builds but honestly I don't think that should be a big issue. Obviously if your opponent is 4 gating you're not going to do 1 gate star. Just do your favorite normal build (such as defensive 3 gate against a 4 gate, or 1 gate robo against a tech build), but at the time when you normally get a robo or a twilight, get a stargate instead. Then chrono out your phoenixes and you're good. Here's 2 recent reps showing some phoenix play. They're not the best examples but it's all I can quickly find from recent games. http://drop.sc/57612 http://drop.sc/57613 | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
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Coramoor
Canada455 Posts
as long as they don't proxy it, you have plenty of time to scout it http://drop.sc/57699 http://drop.sc/57698 http://drop.sc/57697 these are three varied examples from the korean server where people basically only do this build on certain maps I really hope they're right, having trouble figuring the maps out in a language i can't read Only mid diamond on korean but it's still really solid play | ||
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Dredrick
United States32 Posts
On November 11 2011 18:16 coL.rsvp wrote: Phoenix play in PvP is really really strong right now. I'd even go as far as to say that phoenix/immortal can be considered a "standard" build that really has no hard counters, just like the popular blink robo. I think people misunderstand the phoenix especially in PvP - most players think it's only a harass unit that's a weak fighter. On the contrary, in most cases it should not be used to harass at all (energy is better spent on units rather than probes), and in fact it's a very strong fighter - a phoenix has about the same DPS against non-bonus targets than stalkers do against bonus targets (i.e. armored). Phoenix is just so amazingly effective in those early-mid game battles. It kills zealots really fast. Deals with sentries even faster. Instantly removes immortals from the battle. Helps to negate blink. In small scale battles, pure blink stalkers can easily defeat an equally valued non-blink stalker/zealot army. However, pure blink stalkers will not be able to defeat an equally valued stalker/zealot/phoenix army. Yesssssssss... I agree with everything here except one point. Pheonix are super strong and so many players fail to see the advantage of denying blink micro with phoenix in the open ground. That is what makes phoenix viable vs Blink Stalkers, and effectively why there isn't a hard-counter to phoenix. The one thing I don't agree with is that you they shouldn't be used to harass. I understand your point and I agree very much with the idea, but I would insinuate that if you are very familiar and comfortable with Pheonix player, you can find small opportunities to harass throughout the game. I do agree with the main idea though, that you need to recognize phoenix as a fighting unit first, and harassment second, which requires you to conserve their "ammunition". On November 11 2011 18:16 coL.rsvp wrote: So in other words, "phoenix harass into macro" isn't really a good build, because it wastes the offensive potential of the phoenix. The best way to play phoenix IMO is to just 1 base and attack for the win. I think this is the main difference between how I run Pheonix and how I see Axslav doing it. You can abuse a relatively small weakness from your opponent with Pheonix play, and get a lot of wins off punishing them. Phoenix just work so well in mid sized armies before your opponent can really MASS up a ton of zealots that it is quite easy to go for the kill. I don't know about cannons not helping though, because if your opponent's positioning is well, then it can be a little hard to get the immortals to take out the cannons without letting them get hit by zealots, but it's nothing impossible. vs something like a later immortal or ESPECIALLY a collosus expand that he spends resource on too many cannons for defense, I've done a nifty little trick where I take my sizeable pheonix force (6-8ish) that had a lot of energy, and mass raided his main for something like 14 probe kills, and counter expanded. It worked out pretty well, leaving my opponent pretty crippled and when you have that many phoenix your energy regeneration is pretty impressive really. Might not be super good vs really good players but I think it can work. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
On November 11 2011 03:56 Chronald wrote: Does anyone have a recommendation of a good game(s) from Axslav's stream that I can watch to figure out the BO? I feel like his opening is different each time, but I can't get a grip of what he is scouting to change the BO. Thanks! the build order is usually something as follows (assuming you don't suspect 4g) 13 gate (2 chronoes before gate) 14 gas 16 pylon (chrono workers again) 17sh core 2nd gas zealot. Once core finishes get stalker and WG research (chrono stalker) Right before stalker finishes you should be able to get SG. Sentry 2nd gate soon after. | ||
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Nickm89
United States6 Posts
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