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On November 05 2011 16:25 hipsterHobbit wrote:
PZ v TP - early aggression is good. Baneling bust + 4 gate is hard to stop and easy to execute.
PZ v TZ - widely considered to be a very difficult matchup. Generally, your zerg should go lings and banelings, and your protoss mass stalkers. Try to save the banelings as long as you can and keep them behind the stalkers. When the TZ team runs the lings toward the stalkers, move in the banelings, when he retreats his lings, retreat the banelings. If all your banelings die the stalkers will get surrounded by lings and destroyed. gg. Stalkers should target fire Terran units, be them hellions or marauders or marines.
PZ v PZ - 10 pool + fast stalker rush or just 4 gate as fast as possible. Anything else is kind of gets owned. Even banelings are easy to beat by just target firing with stalkers. This matchup is pretty straight forward and micro intensive. Whoever 4 gates and lings better wins.
Generally, you'll want lings and stalkers as your main army composition. Zealot sentry + ling sucks. Stalker + roach sucks. Zealot sentry + roach is too slow and you will lose to counter attacks.
Also, a super effective late game strategy is mass charge zealot + muta, with protoss feeding the zerg gas and zerg feeding the protoss minerals. It's like muta ling, except instead of lings you have zealots. Very effective and pretty easy too. Only problem is getting there. :p
Thanks man, I appreciate the tips.
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Just started playing some TZ as Ling Hellion. Any matchup specific tips, especially on terran teams that can wall off pretty solidly?
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Right when your factory finishes and as you swap it on to the reactor, have an scv ready outside your opponents base (but in a hidden spot) ready to proxy a starport. Build a Medivac when the starport completes and you should have 4 hellions when the medivac pops, load them up and drop them in the base. This is good for scouting and you can sometimes kill lots of workers too. Make sure you gain map control by clearing the towers with your initial hellions first before dropping, as if it gets scouted you can be set pretty far behind.
Then add on a tech lab to the starport and make some banshees to kill all the wounded workers your hellions left behind. If you do lots of damage, obviously you will drop a fusion core and proxy BCs should end the game in due time xD.
That's how you counter a wall off with the hellion opener.
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Very cool guide! I will probably be using this.
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On November 06 2011 01:17 asaed wrote:
So I realize that mirror teams (double X) are typically inferior to mix-and-match teams, but does anyone have any good advice of how to play TT? I appreciate hipsterHobbit's post, but was wondering if anyone had any more details about good TT openings/transitions into mid/late game, etc.
Thanks in advance.
Master 2v2 EU (both RT and AT) here. I have found that TT can be quite effective. What works best for me is:
- when there is a Terran against us (ex TT vs TZ or TP), you should not go mass bio. It means one terran should go mech and the other air (cloaked banshee). Both can do marines + shield to sink minerals if they want, but none should just mass pure bio. The mech terran is there to make an unbreakable wall; the air terran has to maintain mapcontrol and deny enemy expansions, while you PF + 5 towers and macro.
- when there is no terran, one of you should still go mech and the other can go 3 rax stim, mass bio. Be aware of infestors/ht/colo switch and react accordingly.
Last but not least, you should wall of and get at least a defensive bunker... and keep track of backdoors. Sometimes you will need more than 1 bunk against agressive P+Z.
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Very nice guide, great work! 
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Awesome thread. Neat pictures (:
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 06 2011 16:33 JALbert wrote:
Just started playing some TZ as Ling Hellion. Any matchup specific tips, especially on terran teams that can wall off pretty solidly?
I been playing some 2v2 against the best 2v2 players of NA. I realized that if they wall, you can't really attack them. Every time me and my partner would try to rush, we would lose. Then I started 15 hatching vs non zerg teams. It's working really well.
I think Ling Hellion is sort of a outdated strategy.
vs ZP, Stalker Baneling owns ling hellion really bad.
vs ZT, wall + roach marine tank owns ling hellion really bad too.
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I've done very little arranged team 2v2 maybe 60 games or so with a partner who wasn't quite on my level and didn't have his mechanics down so was never able to flush out really solid builds where we worked together on that completely awsome level. But back at the end of what season 2 I think when I hit near the top of 2v2 RT Masters my general game plan as Terran was Marine Tank. It's solid enough to hold most early rushes by both opponents with only light support from your ally, even more so with bunkers. Playing random teams you need to consider overall solid builds as you just don't have time or practice to really flush out a coordinated effort and if you rely on your ally you can lose quite a few games.
The absolute scariest thing in 2v2 are a lot of Mutalisks in your base as it can hit with a way earlier timing than 1v1 especially with mineral dumping. Unless you have a Terran ally going mass Marine or a Toss mass Stalker the Muta's will often end the game right there.
Drops have a place in 2v2 but need to be done correctly and as safely as possible. You don't want to load up most of your forces to drop in a base or do a doom drop(everything you have) unless you're sure it will enable your ally to destroy their front and allow you to sandwich their army. Static defense is almost a nessessary part of every 2v2 match up as their's just to much ground to cover to defend and too many attack paths so it's rarely safe to blind drop. Nydas Worms and Warp Prism Warp Ins tend to be more cost effective than drops.
The biggest problem I see in team games is when your random allies all want to rush, me I'm a macro player though mostly it's because aside from very well thought out and executed rush builds I know that my standard build can hold everything so I know that rushing is likely to fail and put us behind. Also you can't always just use your allies rush to expo because I've seen it happen time and again they'll suicide every unit they have doing little to no damage instead of pulling back when they see they can't do much and when the counter hits you're dead no matter how much defense you have up. So when they want to rush make a choice, either rush with them, play super defensive and solid while teching, or expo.
That's my advise for Random Teams.
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@yanot and Rabod Wookie, thanks so much for the substantial and informative posts!! It was exactly what I was looking for as a Terran who is playing both on TT and on RT ladder!
Thanks again!
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Awesome Thread, I compete in the CSL on the 2's team and threads like this one are great for informing everyone about hte differences in the 2's matchup.
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Thanks dude, awesome thread! Hope it gets added to the list. I just started doing 2v2 random so its nice to know the basics.
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Thanks a lot for this. Will read now.
I love playing 2v2. - last season I was ranked ~250 in the world i believe, but I still get crushed insanely hard by people who actually know how to play 2v2 
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Just wanted to say I've been following you for about a week now and I really enjoy your stream!
And thank you for the guide, its 3am atm but I'll def bookmark for the weekend.
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Nice thread sieesch. ;D
On November 05 2011 16:25 hipsterHobbit wrote:
PZ v TZ - widely considered to be a very difficult matchup. Generally, your zerg should go lings and banelings, and your protoss mass stalkers. Try to save the banelings as long as you can and keep them behind the stalkers. When the TZ team runs the lings toward the stalkers, move in the banelings, when he retreats his lings, retreat the banelings. If all your banelings die the stalkers will get surrounded by lings and destroyed. gg. Stalkers should target fire Terran units, be them hellions or marauders or marines.
^True. imo, TZ really controls the pace of this matchup. Having the option of either 3rax-rine rushing, fast reactor-hellions or early ling/rauder pressure makes it almost impossible for PZ to take map control. It's hard to get a good scout on TZ, as terran usually walls in and/or bunkers in front of expos. You need to rely on good ling runby-scouting or good overlord position/sacking at the right times. As PZ, you need to respond correctly, or you'r pretty much toast. Staying on 1 base against TZ isn't really optimal in the long run, as marauders/1-1-3 allin builds or similar tend to get extremely powerful the longer you as a toss stay on gateway-tech. Besides, terran has mules and the option of lifting CC to the expo if needed. Get too greedy as a toss, and you'r gonna get punished.
On November 05 2011 16:25 hipsterHobbit wrote:
PZ v PZ - 10 pool + fast stalker rush or just 4 gate as fast as possible. Anything else is kind of gets owned. Even banelings are easy to beat by just target firing with stalkers. This matchup is pretty straight forward and micro intensive. Whoever 4 gates and lings better wins.
Generally, you'll want lings and stalkers as your main army composition. Zealot sentry + ling sucks. Stalker + roach sucks. Zealot sentry + roach is too slow and you will lose to counter attacks.
I don't know if I agree with this. First of all, all a 10 pool is going to do in PZ vs PZ is to buy some map control. On most maps, the toss should be fine against a 10 pool with a 12 gate opening, with his z partner going 13 pool-gas or 14-14. You'll be able to squeeze out a few extra lings as well, and if the toss goes a 10 gate along with the 10 pool, the warpgate timing will hit somewhat earlier. However, a 13-pool or 14-14 zerg will have quite a few banes before the big 4 gate timing commences, and (10-pool)ling/stalker vs ling/bling/stalker isn't exactly optimal. However, it does make it hard to predict what is coming. Is it 4 gate stalkers? 6 gate feed? Fast blink stalker feed? Dts? So it is undoubtfully powerful, but not necessarily the best opening.
I'd also like to point out that, even though I generally think roaches have a limited use in a PZ-team, they do work in some situations in PZ v PZ. If you expect your opponents to do a more standard 12-gate, 14-14 type of build, either speedling-expand or ling-bling-stalker pressure, a 3 gate robo + roach "allin" is very strong. You should be able to defend (with a mutual choke. Don't try this on scorched haven imo) a 4 gate/ling/bling with roaches in the front, stalkers in the background, and maybe even some structures to prevent a good surround/soaking damage. Having the better economy + getting immortals, you should be able to hit a timing attack at around 2 immortals, a bunch of roaches/stalkers (given that you hold their initial attack) and maybe consider getting roach speed and +1 if you can afford it (share resources). With immortals picking down any stalkers/roaches they have, warping in zealots if they have ling/zealots, and having your roach obliterate any lings, there's not much the other team can do, as they are either preparing for their next allin or trying to catch up in economy. Runby lings is of course one threat, but you should be able to deal with this as well. Leave 1 zeal in the toss base, and have a pylon close to the zerg base, to be able to help reinforce the zerg if he is attacked.
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On November 05 2011 16:25 hipsterHobbit wrote:
Also, a super effective late game strategy is mass charge zealot + muta, with protoss feeding the zerg gas and zerg feeding the protoss minerals. It's like muta ling, except instead of lings you have zealots. Very effective and pretty easy too. Only problem is getting there. :p
Really? This sounds really race combo specific to me. In pz v pz, blink-stalker/archon or phoenix + fungle growth sounds like a pretty good counter. If we are talking about late-late game, fungle-storm would shit bricks on mutas. Zealots aren't really that tough either imo, but maybe? Idk.
Used to do a lot of muta feed strats back in beta/early season 1, especially on twilight fortress. Used to work like a charm, but then people realized infestors are pretty damn okay.
Dunno against TZ either, as they most likely have infestors and rines/vikings, or they could muta feed as well.
Against other combo's it might be good. The problem is, like you put it, how to get there
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Waiting some replays with you to cast them all that you write .Nice job mate and the screenshots was helpfull.Theory of that guide is good but Practice is the first rulle practice many games and with this guide you unterstand more .
Keep the good job Sieesh
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there are replays in the last section right next to the builds
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I play ZP in 2v2 (low?) master, played about 40 games this week, and I think ZT is the hardest matchup (probably the cheesiest).
You have to wall-in because of the zerg, but wall-ins make tank pushes really hard to deal with. Since builds are kinda fuzzy in 2v2, it's very hard to read your opponents, and the Z with the Terran can cut many corners because he knows the Terran wall-in can hold basically anything. I think double forge chargelots is the key to this matchup, into archons/storm. Zerg kind of just scouts, expands and gets a handful of infestors. Marine/roach all-ins are extremely hard to hold. Stargate openings are interesting, considering the same amount of phoenixes force twice the reaction, and guaranteed overlord kills.
ZP vs TT is also a tricky matchup. I think DTs can play a big role in this matchup, as maps are big enough that they won't be able to attack without a raven, and even then archons/speedlings is really good, plus charge is just an upgrade away. Mutas will obviously be good, but a double Terran deathball is still incredibly hard to deal with as soon as they have a handful of ghosts. Storm + Fungal sounds great, but it requires an amazing amount of micro and coordination.
It feels like ZP is basically immune to 1v1 cheese (double 6pool, cannon rushes, proxy gates, etc.).
11Pool18Hatch can hold anything vs TP, PP and PZ, and still fallback on a great econ.
13g13P + wall-in should hold anything vs ZZ, and hatch first vs TT sounds logical, but I'm not sure if it can actually hold considering P is pretty useless without a ramp to forcefield early game.
I still don't understand ZP vs ZT though. So hard to scout, so many potential builds...
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On November 08 2011 11:08 Pwere wrote:
I play ZP in 2v2 (low?) master, played about 40 games this week, and I think ZT is the hardest matchup (probably the cheesiest).
I still don't understand ZP vs ZT though. So hard to scout, so many potential builds...
if you can comfortably get to midgame, i.e. no need for forge defense early, i'd recommend zealot sentry roaches. 4-5 gates mass sentry plus zealots to meatshield vs marauders. hits at 7.5 mins before tanks, and the FFs make it really hard for banes, hellions, enemy roaches or other short range .
weaknesses are fast infestor, banshee and tanks
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EPT
