|
On November 08 2011 14:52 familyguy123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:08 Pwere wrote:
I play ZP in 2v2 (low?) master, played about 40 games this week, and I think ZT is the hardest matchup (probably the cheesiest).
I still don't understand ZP vs ZT though. So hard to scout, so many potential builds... if you can comfortably get to midgame, i.e. no need for forge defense early, i'd recommend zealot sentry roaches. 4-5 gates mass sentry plus zealots to meatshield vs marauders. hits at 7.5 mins before tanks, and the FFs make it really hard for banes, hellions, enemy roaches or other short range . weaknesses are fast infestor, banshee and tanks
Hmm, siege tech is before 7:30 in 2v2, sorry =)
It's around 6 mins, most likely.
Roaches are overall terrible vs Tx. They're a dead end tech, they're slow and have no synergy at all.
I think speedlings into fast lair is the way to go. The only problem is that a lot of 2v2 maps are terrible, with natural to natural distances rivaling steps of war, or naturals so open that hellions cannot be stopped.
Since protoss cannot hold all-ins without a ramp, it also means that Px can never take those exposed bases, which leads to shitty games.
Imo, the best map in the pool, by far, is the one with the safe expo behind the mains, which skips the annoying "protoss can't do shit" phase, and allows Zerg to have the econ lead they need in 1v1. Everything else is basically disgusting.
|
Richy- I agree with everything you said.
About mutalisk zealot. It's really just something to put a game away once you have it won. I believe there are counters to every strategy, of course, but the way you can utilize every resource in mutas and zealots while resource sharing gives you a ridiculous timing. Plus it's just fun to do :p
Also, in pz v pz there is a delicate balance of when you get your pool, and eeking out another drone or two will make a difference. But the earlier pool allows the protoss to cut corners to get a faster warp gate and 4 gate up, and with map control you can get a forward pylon. 10 gate is kind of what I'm referring to here, and is super effective in pz v pz, since the matchup is on a razor's edge.
|
|
|
ZP vs ZP can be looked at a few different ways. This may sound a little strange, but mass lings in zp vs zp is better than ling/bane if micro'd correctly.
The concepts in this thread are good, so anyone wanting to learn how to get better at 2v2, definitely read the OP, I can vouch for this.
|
Nice guide.
Hope to catch you on ladder 
|
Nice writeup! Always good to see some team game content if just for the sake of variety.
|
Ok because it got requested I will talk about Mirrorraceteams as well:
I will edit this to startpost as well
Z/Z
Double Zerg is imho the weakest 2v2 racecombo. The Reasons why I think so:
1. Double Zerg biggest strenght is the early game, compared to the other races zerg is able to get 3 different units really early: Roach/Ling/Baneling. So if you got 2 Zergs in a team you can abuse that fact for strong allins:
10P/10G Speedling+ 12Pool/12Gas Baneling(No Speedling!) or 13Pool/15Gas 8Roachrush+10P/10G Speedling or 13Pool/15Gas 8Roachrush+14G/14P Speedling/Baneling or 7Pool 1Spinerush+10P/10G Speedling (only vs Z) etc.
All those allins are damn strong but the problem with it is, that every decent 2v2 Team knows about the fact that double Zerg has those strong allins and will scout really fast and get urbar defense if needed. By the way these allins are way less scary with the new mappool with mostly shared base maps.
2. Zerg has no early antiair so if there is 1 Zerg in a team against doublezerg he can spread his overlords all the way to doublezerg bases and will always see what double zerg trys to do, even if he has no mapcontrol by ground.
3. Zerg needs to stay one base a head to a nonzerg to be even but with the current 2v2 mappool it is hard to secure a third on the most maps.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I57ZN.jpg)
If you take a look on a map like scorched heaven you will see there is only 1 safe third per team which is easy to defend cause you have lots of reaction time when you see your opponents moving out for it. So you can crush opponents forces or go for a counter cause the will be out of position when they attack this third base.
But with a double zerg you have to get a third for both zergs in your team which is kind of impossible because all the other bases are as far away from your main as they are from your opponents main, they are all open and goldbases also got a cliff behind the mineralline. So as Zerg/Zerg in 2v2 you will often lack in expansions because of maparchitecture and the number of expansions overall.
4. The biggest weakness Zerg imho has in 2v2 is the lack of rangeunits during the midgame. Units like Roach/Ling/Hydra etc. all need space to engage. A Zerg in 1v1 has to think about where he enages to get a good concave and make all his units fight at the same time. (i.e. Roach/Hydra Corrupter vs Stalker/Sentry/Zealot/Immortal/Colossi).
This is even more important in 2v2 because the midgamearmy of 2Players is even bigger so it is kind of Impossible to find a good spot to fight a Army of Nonzerg+Nonzerg or Nonzerg+Zerg as Doublezerg. So even when your armyvalue is even or slightly more during midgame as doublezerg you will end up loosing in engagements, cause not all of your Roaches/Lings/Hydra etc will be able to fight at the same time and they will never reach the Highrange Highdps Terran or Toss Units (i.e Siegetanks or Colossi)
Replay: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241043
The Problems of midgame aregood shown here, Doublezers cannot get a safe third and arent able to reach the tanks so the are falling apart during midgame even when it was even before
So the best way to deal with double Zergteam is - scout early - defend really hard if needed - go for a midgame 2-3 base timing - kill the vurnable thirds of doublezerg and go for the finishmove before tier3tech hits.
Replays: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241038
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241039
That shows how you just hard defend allins when scout early and how having overlord on the map helps you to see everything coming early without having mapcontrol.
5. In lategame doublezerg is ok again, because they Broodlords got a good Range and with support of Roach/Infestor it can get really hard to kill them off.
If you try to play Zerg/Zerg serious same concepts as i told you at the start of this thread about are good way to do. i.e. One hatch first other gets early pool to buy some time when expo first player got units the other can expand and so on... still you will have trouble securing a third on most maps and have the weakest army in the midgame especially if the opponents are not a doublerace team as well.
P/P
Double Protoss can be tricky. No doubt – it is strong in a specific way but it is scoutable, predictable and easy to abuse.
P/P Teams recently became a more viable teammatchup caused by the fact that the mappool changed to maps with sharedbase mains when you want to play this mtachup you have to use the at the start of the guide presented concepts. The concept of timebuying might be more important than in every other racecomposition. Because with you wont win a game with only warpgateunits so you have to buy the time to get higher tech. As I presented when i looked at te racespecifics of protoss, P is really vurnable to early aggression, to deal with that one of you has to buy time by going forge first! If you try to open with Gateway both you probably just loose your wall and the game to 2Rax Marauder or things like that.
So you have to open forge first and it might even be good to try a cannonrush. This cannonrush will fail against decent teams no doubt but it keeps them busy, so they don't attack you early and it forces them to get units early. Else they got just go really greedy against double protoss cause there is no other thread of early agression than cannonrush or proxygate which a double protoss team can do.
The next problem 2P have is to secure expansions, cause they arent mobile and they have to give up mapcontrol early on. So it is really hard form them to expo.
What a PP Team has to do to win a game:
1. One opens forge to keep you both safe against early aggression and buy the time for his ally to tech. - As i said fake or even do a small cannonrush/block expos to prevent your opponents from outmacroing you to early is good with that forge first as well.
2. Try to hide at least 1 Probe so you can scout what your opponents are up to – cause you wont have mapcontrol at all.
3. If there is a safe expo (Boneyard/Tyrador Keep) take it asap.
4. Be carefully what you spent your Gas on – because you have limited expos you want to use your gas as best as possible which is upgrades as Blink/Charge/Attack, cause its only a small investment in Gas and many units get a profit of that. All other Gas you want to feed to one of you to get a high number of one high tech unit i.g. colossi
5. Get an observer asap to see whats going on – remember you dont have any mapcontrol at all.
When you did all that you want to do a timing push and secure new expansions behind, or if your observer saw your opponents did not macro to much and went for lots of units instead just move out slowly and secure expanions one by one while massing more units.
How to deal with double Protoss:
1. If they went for the safe way (one forge first one gateway first) you have to be aware of cannonrush, deny that and kill all probes on the map to get mapcontrol. You should go for macromode after and just keep some units outside there front so they cannot scout before observer.
2. Try to scout them whenever you can to figure out what kind of timingpush they go for. Good ways to scout are saccing Overlords, using Scans/Overseer/Observer. Reaper is one of the most powerful ways to scout and even harass P/P-Teams, because they have to invest a lot to defend their front early so a reaper in the back can do real pain.
3. When you figured out what their tech is and what timing they go for just hardcouter their techunits: Ghost vs Hightempler, Viking, Corruptor, (Colossi) vs Colossi etc. and get tons of stuff (your economy should always be ahead of them already so if you do fine against the push and they cannot secure new expos you just win.)
Btw if they did not went the safe way and opend Gateway first both, you can simply kill them off early, marauder stalker roach doing fine against a wall with only stalkers behind it...
Replays showing that if you know what they do and just counter it hard its not to hard to beat PP:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241034
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241035
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241036
For those who want to see doublerace vs doublerace I got 2 ZZ vs PP, in that case I as a Zerg play just like I would in 1v1 ZvP:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241050
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241051
T/T
Double Terran is imho the best of all doublerace teams, because of the diversity of terran units. Protoss and Zerg have the issue that there arent to many different kind of units which add well to a deathball push later on. Terran got these units and so double Terran is a really good way to play 2v2.
There are 3 overalls ideas how a terran can play.
1. Heavy on Mech (Tanks few Thors and blueflame Hellions)
2. Bio Marine (Marauder Medivac some ghost later on)
3. Air (Banshee Viking Raven even Battlecruiser later on)
imho 1 Terran should always go for Heavy mech cause thats pretty good in most matchups, you can easily secure expos and keypositions with high tanknumbers and you still have the possibility of harass with blueflamehellions which are damn fast and do really well with runbys especially later on in the game when your opponents are more spread out.
The decision between Bio and Airplay for the second Terran is a though one.
Bio does well in killing oponents bases and drones when you go for dropplay, but Airplay is better in terms of Mapcontrol and can give your mech ally the vision he needs is there is a meachplayer on the other team as well. Both ways seem really viable to me, but Airplay+Mech is Gasintense while Bio+Mech line up better economywise. So the Bioplayer can feed Gas to the Mechplayer.
When you look at this overall ideas you will see these are really macro and midgame oriented, so you defend early on with bunks till first tank and siege is out etc.
But there are other ways toplay double Terran if you want to go for quick games or just like an aggressive earlyplay more.
2x2Rax(11) if you both go for double 11 Rax you can do an insane pressure with marines early on and still transition if you did enough damage (it's semiallin so you have to do at least a decent amount of damage)
Double 1-1-1, the strength of 1-1-1 is that you can easily swap your addons later and just transition into everything with that bio, rine+tank+viking, heavy mech+hel drops etc.... So if you both do a 1-1-1 opening you want to do something like that:
One of you guys goes for Reactor Hellion Harass at the front into cloackbanshe at the back and the other one does reaper at the back into marine drop. That pressures your allys extremly so they kinda have to be safe at the front and at their mineral lines against gorund as well as against air and even need detection. That way of pressure can you give an early lead or just end the game quickly.
The good thing about 1-1-1 is that you can swap your addons and trasition into everything you want.
Blueflame Hellion+Marauder(Marine)
The idea of that is pretty simple Marauder do well against armored units and Hellions do well vs light units. A usual Stimtiming hits around 7:30 a usual Reactorhellion+second Factory Blueflame hits around 7:20. So if you combine both you get an insanly strong timing push. But you are kind of allin, because you have to cut SCVs here and there to get a Marauder heavy Stimtimeing and to do constant Hellionproduction. This build dies to Mutafeeds, tinyramps with wall and early Siegetanks or immortals+forcefields. Banshees arent to big of a problem cause he will only have around 2 when you hit and you will have some marines so he cant kill your units off before the blueflame roasted his economy.
I have this build only faced like 1 or 2 times ar all and i cant find the replays, its overall hard to find good replays for doublerace teams as PP/TT/ZZ cause the lack of arragend teams playing that combinations.
TT-Replays: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241052
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=241053
|
|
|
Thanks for the followup. Like I said before, always nice to see some team stuff.
|
Nice 2v2 post. Haven't updated mine in nearly a year lol, pretty out of date ><.
|
Very nice addendum. I'm going to watch the TT replays, since like you said, we're sorely lacking good 2v2 Terrans on NA. ^^
|
Really nice 2v2 guide. Thaks for sharing your information with us
|
Nice thread Sieesch :D Encouraged me to play some random 2's again ^_^
|
Always a plessure to watch your stream and now this awesome guide :-)
|
really nice work . Thanks .
|
Z/Z
Double Zerg is imho the weakest 2v2 racecombo. The Reasons why I think so:
1. Double Zerg biggest strenght is the early game, compared to the other races zerg is able to get 3 different units really early: Roach/Ling/Baneling. So if you got 2 Zergs in a team you can abuse that fact for strong allins:
10P/10G Speedling+ 12Pool/12Gas Baneling(No Speedling!) or 13Pool/15Gas 8Roachrush+10P/10G Speedling or 13Pool/15Gas 8Roachrush+14G/14P Speedling/Baneling or 7Pool 1Spinerush+10P/10G Speedling (only vs Z) etc.
All those allins are damn strong but the problem with it is, that every decent 2v2 Team knows about the fact that double Zerg has those strong allins and will scout really fast and get urbar defense if needed. By the way these allins are way less scary with the new mappool with mostly shared base maps.
2. Zerg has no early antiair so if there is 1 Zerg in a team against doublezerg he can spread his overlords all the way to doublezerg bases and will always see what double zerg trys to do, even if he has no mapcontrol by ground.
3. Zerg needs to stay one base a head to a nonzerg to be even but with the current 2v2 mappool it is hard to secure a third on the most maps.
On the other hand, the other race combos must play safely against a double Z team, which means they can get a massive early advantage if they play greedy. Any single-zerg team cannot play economically at all because of the early game dangers. TP, TT, PP can sometimes properly wall on some of the maps. On the other hand, no-zerg teams can't properly scout with an overlord.
AA problems is actually less of an issue with double zerg teams, because the queens can actually help out the ally because there's creep over everything, rather than just half the base. In 1z teams it can be an issue because the non-zerg basically has to handle the AA.
The last point is probably the biggest issue. However, it is mitigated a bit by the ability to spread creep so fast.
|
I've very recently started to upload high level 2on2 games on youtube. There are two reasons for this. 2on2 replays are really really hard to get a hold of. I like 2on2 and I feel that everyone ignores 2on2 because they don't understand it. So as the OP mostly posted this thread, to spread the word of 2on2 and the knowledge.
Game1
Game 2
Game 3
Here are 3 games and more will be uploaded in the future.
|
I've always had trouble transitioning my 1v1 skills into 2v2. This guide looks awesome =)
|
i heard mech with toss air is a great combo
|
I have the same problem guys, I just wanna watch a lot of 2vs2 games but just cannot get a hold of any.
You guys wouldn't happen to know a site which does have these? (and I dont have to scroll through all the replays) (no youtube plz)
I've been searching and searching, plz help. ty
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
