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Edit: Before this turns into a balance flame-fest, allow me to add a disclaimer. I mean for this thread to use reapers as a vehicle to think about Protoss mobility and harass options and what having better options would mean. I don't think adding reapers to Protoss as the game stands right now would be a good idea. You'd need to make adjustments (like disabling high-ground warp-in). Let's assume Blizz would make the necessary changes to keep everything balanced, and instead focus on how Protoss strategy would change if they had a speedy harass-type unit that could sneak by static defenses.
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This isn't anything too serious--just a little hypothetical exercise that might give us a perspective on how Protoss and Terran differ. What would the game be like if Protoss had access to reapers instead of Terran? Let's say reapers were unlocked at cybernetics core tech and the tech lab allowed only marauders.
How would Terran change? That's the easy question. Terrans use reapers almost exclusively as an early game scout that might score a couple worker kills if the defense is out of position. Rarely, a player will make a few reapers in the mid-game or late-game as a mineral-light form of harass.
Could these functions be filled with other means available to Terran? For the early game scout, the reaper is a good option. Terran could use a scan, float a building, or poke the ramp with a quick marauder push, but these alternatives each have their own risks and benefits. They don't accomplish the same goal for the same cost, but it's worth noting that Terrans usually go without the reaper scout, so it's easy to imagine them surviving just fine without the option to do so. As for the mid-game and late-game reapers, there are usually better ways to harass. Losing reapers at this stage would make almost no difference.
How would Protoss change? Would Protoss build reapers if the cybernetics core unlocked stalkers, sentries, and reapers? When would it make sense to do so? I'd guess that Protoss would get A LOT more use out of reapers than Terran currently does.
In PvP, a reaper would be produced immediately upon completion of the core to scout whether the opponent is going 4-gate, robo, blink, phoenix, or expansion. I suspect we'd see an early reaper in almost all PvP's, but because PvP doesn't tend to spread out across many bases, I doubt we'd see reapers used much for harass. Blink stalkers, phoenixes and immortal drops would still be better ways to harass.
In PvT, reapers would make a huge difference. The scouting role would be good, but I find that P can usually tell what T is doing just by poking the front. More importantly, it would give P a way to harass behind the bunkers against bio expands. Making T split his defenses would also open up the front more for attack. Moving into the later game when T is on 3+ bases, I suspect we'd see frequent reaper raids to force defense and slow down the Terran economy. As it stands, P's best option for harassing T is the warp prism, but warp prisms are shut down by vikings, which T usually wants to build anyway. Protoss reapers would make T defend his bases with resources that don't efficiently strengthen his core army.
In PvZ, reapers might be even better. As it stands, P has almost no ability to harass against late-gas openings, and P can't safely leave his base in the early game to scout or pressure unless he's fully committing to an attack. Reapers would help with both of these issues. Moreover, reapers would actually be very helpful in defending roach+ling aggression in the early game. As it stands, sentries buy time with forcefields, but unless you have a cannon or a void ray, you usually don't have the DPS to thin Z's numbers quickly enough to defend. I suspect reapers would bolster P's early game offense and defense against Z. In the mid-game and late-game, we might see some speed-reaper harass against roach builds, and I suspect we'd see reapers included in the core army as they'd be the best option for ranged DPS against lings until colossus tech.
What do you think? What does it say about the Protoss and Terran races that reapers would seemingly make such a huge difference for Protoss, but go almost unused by Terran? Can this offer us any insights on what an expansion with a Protoss harass-type unit might be like?
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It would make warp in on highground incredibly ridiculous early game.
They won't be underused by Terran when they get reworked/abilities added/unnerfed/etc in HotS or LotV.
You can harass behind bio bunker expands...Warp Prism, Phoenix, Voidray, Obs/Halluc+Highground warpins, Blink Stalkers, etc
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Great post....I always joke that i wish I had reapers
get speed from the Twilight council i imagine? Would be fun times
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On October 21 2011 01:58 Tump wrote:
It would make warp in on highground incredibly ridiculous early game.
That's true. You'd probably have to patch warping on high-ground from a low-ground pylon out of the game. Which I've long thought should be done anyway.
On October 21 2011 01:58 Tump wrote:
You can harass behind bio bunker expands...Warp Prism, Phoenix, Voidray, Obs/Halluc+Highground warpins, Blink Stalkers, etc
For the most part, you can't harass behind bio expands well if you're also expanding. If you go stargate, you'll just die to a 2-base push. High ground warp-ins are giving away units unless they're super early. Blink is too late. You can rush out a warp prism and drop some zealots, but it's pretty late and doesn't do much damage. Reapers would be faster and better than all of the above for the same purpose.
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On October 21 2011 01:57 kcdc wrote:
What does it say about the Protoss and Terran races that reapers would seemingly make such a huge difference for Protoss, but go almost unused by Terran?
I think it just shows how Terran have many good scouting options all the way from early-late game, whereas Protoss doesn't really have the same options for "proper scouting" that early, you can always poke the front with a probe, but that only lets you know as much as the Terran wants you to know. As much as I would love reapers for early game scouting, there's no way I would trade reapers for observers, or even an observer nerf, mid-game scouting for Protoss is, in my opinion, the best of the races. As much as I would love a good harass unit, they're pretty costly for harass, 50 gas for a throwaway unit is a bit much considering 4 reapers would be 200 gas, you're almost guaranteed to take losses and most Protoss builds don't leave you with a lot of free gas.
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It's probably because Marine Medivacs are more effective, cheaper, strong vs. small amounds or armored units, and actually serve a purpose in the army vs army battle...
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Perhaps a cliff jumping mechanic would benefit the Zerg as well for scouting purposes. In the same way Terran was mentioned having an option to ramp poke and a floating building, Zerg has similar mechanics with their ground units and overlords. However, our overlords have a significantly less health than a floating terran building and we don't have scans.
Of course, the implication of having a very fast unit that disregards wall and that can snipe buildings would be that this unit could not be built en masse like many zerg units. This unit coupled with being able to be easily massed would most likely always mean that the Zerg could very easily swarm and gain positioning advantage against Protoss and Terran (and simply retreat back over cliff when positioning is lost).
If this theoretical cliffjumping unit for Zerg could be balanced so that it couldn't be massed, but also is affordable enough to be built early game, it could allow for the same scouting that other races have against Zerg (because of their inability to wall without creep turmors) and the same scouting options Terran have against every race.
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Off topic, but I clicked on this thread thinking that it said "If Protoss had reavers" and panicked (as a Zerg player).
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On October 21 2011 02:19 ExJohn wrote:
Perhaps a cliff jumping mechanic would benefit the Zerg as well for scouting purposes. In the same way Terran was mentioned having an option to ramp poke and a floating building, Zerg has similar mechanics with their ground units and overlords. However, our overlords have a significantly less health than a floating terran building and we don't have scans.
Of course, the implication of having a very fast unit that disregards wall and that can snipe buildings would be that this unit could not be built en masse like many zerg units. This unit coupled with being able to be easily massed would most likely always mean that the Zerg could very easily swarm and gain positioning advantage against Protoss and Terran (and simply retreat back over cliff when positioning is lost).
If this theoretical cliffjumping unit for Zerg could be balanced so that it couldn't be massed, but also is affordable enough to be built early game, it could allow for the same scouting that other races have against Zerg (because of their inability to wall without creep turmors) and the same scouting options Terran have against every race.
60 seconds build time, build from Hatchery not Larvae.
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I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech)
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On October 21 2011 02:01 kcdc wrote:
For the most part, you can't harass behind bio expands well if you're also expanding. If you go stargate, you'll just die to a 2-base push. High ground warp-ins are giving away units unless they're super early. Blink is too late. You can rush out a warp prism and drop some zealots, but it's pretty late and doesn't do much damage. Reapers would be faster and better than all of the above for the same purpose.
High ground warp-ins would be way overpowered early game PvT, with absolutely no way to stop them, and very little investment from protoss, terran would have to bunker their whole freaking base or die to stalkers on the high ground.
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I can see a zealot reaper with upgrades being a good mix early game against marine/marauder.
zealots tank, while reapers kill the kiting marines.
you can use the reapers to harrass too. so you can have a mobile protoss army.
terran have so much shit, that they don't even need things like reapers or sensor tower.
protoss has to put like pylons+observers all over the map just to have a chance to spot a mediavec that can easily retreat, give us sensor tower!! =P
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I take the observer for terran thank you. And reapers where just overnerfed thats all (the range buff on the roaches along with the reaper nerfs were to much). Producing them takes to many barracks, so they are basically gas and mineral expensive. Protoss couldn't use them as well if they needed 8 gates just to mass a few on one base. Especially with the barracks nerf lately they got even worse.
For terran the problem is the transition. 5 racks with tech labs ... now what should i do ... with those. Anyway reapers still work, they are nice for tvt and if the zerg wants to play techless in the early game. I use them to transition into mech versus a zerg x3. Bunker + reaper = sad zerg buildings
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On October 21 2011 02:45 Big J wrote:
I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech)
make reapers needing a cybercore+twilight concil.
problem solved =D
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Italy12247 Posts
On October 21 2011 02:54 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:45 Big J wrote:
I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech) make reapers needing a cybercore+twilight concil. problem solved =D
Then they lose their role for p, which would be to be a fast scouting unit with a bit of harass potential.
It's an interesting idea but it would create issues; if p had them, i think their damage would definitely have to be tweaked down simply because of warpgates. A similar early game, fast scouting unit with little combat abilities would be a nice addition to the protoss arsenal though.
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On October 21 2011 02:45 Big J wrote:
I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech)
I meant for the Protoss reaper topic to be a way to think about Protoss mobility and harass options and what having better options would mean. I didn't mean for it to be taken this literally.
But I do think you're over-reacting. There's a reason Terrans don't build a lot of reapers: reapers not good combat units. They'd be a little better if they had forcefields to keep them alive, but reapers are gas-intensive and have a long build time, so you couldn't have both a lot of reapers and a lot of forcefields in early game. As for high-ground warp-ins, you'd probably want to patch those out of the game. For blink, you can already blink up onto high ground pretty quickly with hallucination. But it's weak, so people usually don't.
Anyway, don't stress about what might be OP. Assume that Blizz would make the necessary adjustments to keep it balanced. Then we can focus on how strategy would change if P had a speedy harass-type unit that can sneak by static defenses.
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It isn't that reapers are bad units but the window for reapers is quite early and getting reapers during that windows cripples your tech. Reapers are actually pretty good in combat if you micro some since you can get a few to 1 shot zealots and sentries. Additionally if you go reaper early, you instantly lose to any void ray opening.
I don't think it would change that much. Its not that different from a proxy pylon and zealot warpin harass like Huk likes to do. It would change scouting but not so much the harass aspect.
As for speed reaper in a PvZ. Maybe? I don't know how P teching patterns work but reapers require so much gas that it would eat into stalker and robo. I do think it would be stronger in PvZ since you can go 'hey I want reaper now' and warp in 6 immediately. Things are never as certain for Terran.
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well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody
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Wouldn't this just turn PvP into another 4 gate fest since you could gain vision with a repear to warp on the high ground?
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EPT
