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Edit: Before this turns into a balance flame-fest, allow me to add a disclaimer. I mean for this thread to use reapers as a vehicle to think about Protoss mobility and harass options and what having better options would mean. I don't think adding reapers to Protoss as the game stands right now would be a good idea. You'd need to make adjustments (like disabling high-ground warp-in). Let's assume Blizz would make the necessary changes to keep everything balanced, and instead focus on how Protoss strategy would change if they had a speedy harass-type unit that could sneak by static defenses.
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This isn't anything too serious--just a little hypothetical exercise that might give us a perspective on how Protoss and Terran differ. What would the game be like if Protoss had access to reapers instead of Terran? Let's say reapers were unlocked at cybernetics core tech and the tech lab allowed only marauders.
How would Terran change? That's the easy question. Terrans use reapers almost exclusively as an early game scout that might score a couple worker kills if the defense is out of position. Rarely, a player will make a few reapers in the mid-game or late-game as a mineral-light form of harass.
Could these functions be filled with other means available to Terran? For the early game scout, the reaper is a good option. Terran could use a scan, float a building, or poke the ramp with a quick marauder push, but these alternatives each have their own risks and benefits. They don't accomplish the same goal for the same cost, but it's worth noting that Terrans usually go without the reaper scout, so it's easy to imagine them surviving just fine without the option to do so. As for the mid-game and late-game reapers, there are usually better ways to harass. Losing reapers at this stage would make almost no difference.
How would Protoss change? Would Protoss build reapers if the cybernetics core unlocked stalkers, sentries, and reapers? When would it make sense to do so? I'd guess that Protoss would get A LOT more use out of reapers than Terran currently does.
In PvP, a reaper would be produced immediately upon completion of the core to scout whether the opponent is going 4-gate, robo, blink, phoenix, or expansion. I suspect we'd see an early reaper in almost all PvP's, but because PvP doesn't tend to spread out across many bases, I doubt we'd see reapers used much for harass. Blink stalkers, phoenixes and immortal drops would still be better ways to harass.
In PvT, reapers would make a huge difference. The scouting role would be good, but I find that P can usually tell what T is doing just by poking the front. More importantly, it would give P a way to harass behind the bunkers against bio expands. Making T split his defenses would also open up the front more for attack. Moving into the later game when T is on 3+ bases, I suspect we'd see frequent reaper raids to force defense and slow down the Terran economy. As it stands, P's best option for harassing T is the warp prism, but warp prisms are shut down by vikings, which T usually wants to build anyway. Protoss reapers would make T defend his bases with resources that don't efficiently strengthen his core army.
In PvZ, reapers might be even better. As it stands, P has almost no ability to harass against late-gas openings, and P can't safely leave his base in the early game to scout or pressure unless he's fully committing to an attack. Reapers would help with both of these issues. Moreover, reapers would actually be very helpful in defending roach+ling aggression in the early game. As it stands, sentries buy time with forcefields, but unless you have a cannon or a void ray, you usually don't have the DPS to thin Z's numbers quickly enough to defend. I suspect reapers would bolster P's early game offense and defense against Z. In the mid-game and late-game, we might see some speed-reaper harass against roach builds, and I suspect we'd see reapers included in the core army as they'd be the best option for ranged DPS against lings until colossus tech.
What do you think? What does it say about the Protoss and Terran races that reapers would seemingly make such a huge difference for Protoss, but go almost unused by Terran? Can this offer us any insights on what an expansion with a Protoss harass-type unit might be like?
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It would make warp in on highground incredibly ridiculous early game.
They won't be underused by Terran when they get reworked/abilities added/unnerfed/etc in HotS or LotV.
You can harass behind bio bunker expands...Warp Prism, Phoenix, Voidray, Obs/Halluc+Highground warpins, Blink Stalkers, etc
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Great post....I always joke that i wish I had reapers
get speed from the Twilight council i imagine? Would be fun times
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On October 21 2011 01:58 Tump wrote:
It would make warp in on highground incredibly ridiculous early game.
That's true. You'd probably have to patch warping on high-ground from a low-ground pylon out of the game. Which I've long thought should be done anyway.
On October 21 2011 01:58 Tump wrote:
You can harass behind bio bunker expands...Warp Prism, Phoenix, Voidray, Obs/Halluc+Highground warpins, Blink Stalkers, etc
For the most part, you can't harass behind bio expands well if you're also expanding. If you go stargate, you'll just die to a 2-base push. High ground warp-ins are giving away units unless they're super early. Blink is too late. You can rush out a warp prism and drop some zealots, but it's pretty late and doesn't do much damage. Reapers would be faster and better than all of the above for the same purpose.
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On October 21 2011 01:57 kcdc wrote:
What does it say about the Protoss and Terran races that reapers would seemingly make such a huge difference for Protoss, but go almost unused by Terran?
I think it just shows how Terran have many good scouting options all the way from early-late game, whereas Protoss doesn't really have the same options for "proper scouting" that early, you can always poke the front with a probe, but that only lets you know as much as the Terran wants you to know. As much as I would love reapers for early game scouting, there's no way I would trade reapers for observers, or even an observer nerf, mid-game scouting for Protoss is, in my opinion, the best of the races. As much as I would love a good harass unit, they're pretty costly for harass, 50 gas for a throwaway unit is a bit much considering 4 reapers would be 200 gas, you're almost guaranteed to take losses and most Protoss builds don't leave you with a lot of free gas.
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It's probably because Marine Medivacs are more effective, cheaper, strong vs. small amounds or armored units, and actually serve a purpose in the army vs army battle...
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Perhaps a cliff jumping mechanic would benefit the Zerg as well for scouting purposes. In the same way Terran was mentioned having an option to ramp poke and a floating building, Zerg has similar mechanics with their ground units and overlords. However, our overlords have a significantly less health than a floating terran building and we don't have scans.
Of course, the implication of having a very fast unit that disregards wall and that can snipe buildings would be that this unit could not be built en masse like many zerg units. This unit coupled with being able to be easily massed would most likely always mean that the Zerg could very easily swarm and gain positioning advantage against Protoss and Terran (and simply retreat back over cliff when positioning is lost).
If this theoretical cliffjumping unit for Zerg could be balanced so that it couldn't be massed, but also is affordable enough to be built early game, it could allow for the same scouting that other races have against Zerg (because of their inability to wall without creep turmors) and the same scouting options Terran have against every race.
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Off topic, but I clicked on this thread thinking that it said "If Protoss had reavers" and panicked (as a Zerg player).
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On October 21 2011 02:19 ExJohn wrote:
Perhaps a cliff jumping mechanic would benefit the Zerg as well for scouting purposes. In the same way Terran was mentioned having an option to ramp poke and a floating building, Zerg has similar mechanics with their ground units and overlords. However, our overlords have a significantly less health than a floating terran building and we don't have scans.
Of course, the implication of having a very fast unit that disregards wall and that can snipe buildings would be that this unit could not be built en masse like many zerg units. This unit coupled with being able to be easily massed would most likely always mean that the Zerg could very easily swarm and gain positioning advantage against Protoss and Terran (and simply retreat back over cliff when positioning is lost).
If this theoretical cliffjumping unit for Zerg could be balanced so that it couldn't be massed, but also is affordable enough to be built early game, it could allow for the same scouting that other races have against Zerg (because of their inability to wall without creep turmors) and the same scouting options Terran have against every race.
60 seconds build time, build from Hatchery not Larvae.
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I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech)
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On October 21 2011 02:01 kcdc wrote:
For the most part, you can't harass behind bio expands well if you're also expanding. If you go stargate, you'll just die to a 2-base push. High ground warp-ins are giving away units unless they're super early. Blink is too late. You can rush out a warp prism and drop some zealots, but it's pretty late and doesn't do much damage. Reapers would be faster and better than all of the above for the same purpose.
High ground warp-ins would be way overpowered early game PvT, with absolutely no way to stop them, and very little investment from protoss, terran would have to bunker their whole freaking base or die to stalkers on the high ground.
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I can see a zealot reaper with upgrades being a good mix early game against marine/marauder.
zealots tank, while reapers kill the kiting marines.
you can use the reapers to harrass too. so you can have a mobile protoss army.
terran have so much shit, that they don't even need things like reapers or sensor tower.
protoss has to put like pylons+observers all over the map just to have a chance to spot a mediavec that can easily retreat, give us sensor tower!! =P
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I take the observer for terran thank you. And reapers where just overnerfed thats all (the range buff on the roaches along with the reaper nerfs were to much). Producing them takes to many barracks, so they are basically gas and mineral expensive. Protoss couldn't use them as well if they needed 8 gates just to mass a few on one base. Especially with the barracks nerf lately they got even worse.
For terran the problem is the transition. 5 racks with tech labs ... now what should i do ... with those. Anyway reapers still work, they are nice for tvt and if the zerg wants to play techless in the early game. I use them to transition into mech versus a zerg x3. Bunker + reaper = sad zerg buildings
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On October 21 2011 02:45 Big J wrote:
I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech)
make reapers needing a cybercore+twilight concil.
problem solved =D
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 21 2011 02:54 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:45 Big J wrote:
I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech) make reapers needing a cybercore+twilight concil. problem solved =D
Then they lose their role for p, which would be to be a fast scouting unit with a bit of harass potential.
It's an interesting idea but it would create issues; if p had them, i think their damage would definitely have to be tweaked down simply because of warpgates. A similar early game, fast scouting unit with little combat abilities would be a nice addition to the protoss arsenal though.
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On October 21 2011 02:45 Big J wrote:
I refuse to call things broken just upon a thought but here are a bunch of concerns:
4gate (2gas) with reapers against zerg: mass reapers rock zerglings and stray spine crawlers, which is the most common 4gate defense. So it would reduce ZvP to roach openings. (especially if you consider FFs + the anti-light damage from reapers against zerglings... 2sentries + reaper/zealot... I don't see this being beaten by any non roach=rush opening)
Also reapers jumping into bases + FFs on ramp... that base is down so fast... again in 4gate scenarios against zerg, but also against terran (static bunker/spine defenses)
also early highground warp in/blink abuse comes to mind
also the reapers cost might have to change (it had to be higher imo), because of warp-in and the general races principles (terran has less tech on the rax then protoss on the gateway; protoss upgrades vs terran upgrades; long reaper build time; mass rax+techlab cost more than gateway+cybercore+warp research, chronoboost)
also I have the feeling that the speed upgrade might be fundamentally broken in the hands of P, at least early game, even if it required a robo or twilight
so imo there would have to be either a major nerf to reapers fighting capacity (less dmg vs light or buildings or both) or to it's costs (75/75, 100/50), or to general Protoss mechanisms like blink, warp in, warp gate research, general tech speed (more low level options, less need for high tech)
I meant for the Protoss reaper topic to be a way to think about Protoss mobility and harass options and what having better options would mean. I didn't mean for it to be taken this literally.
But I do think you're over-reacting. There's a reason Terrans don't build a lot of reapers: reapers not good combat units. They'd be a little better if they had forcefields to keep them alive, but reapers are gas-intensive and have a long build time, so you couldn't have both a lot of reapers and a lot of forcefields in early game. As for high-ground warp-ins, you'd probably want to patch those out of the game. For blink, you can already blink up onto high ground pretty quickly with hallucination. But it's weak, so people usually don't.
Anyway, don't stress about what might be OP. Assume that Blizz would make the necessary adjustments to keep it balanced. Then we can focus on how strategy would change if P had a speedy harass-type unit that can sneak by static defenses.
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It isn't that reapers are bad units but the window for reapers is quite early and getting reapers during that windows cripples your tech. Reapers are actually pretty good in combat if you micro some since you can get a few to 1 shot zealots and sentries. Additionally if you go reaper early, you instantly lose to any void ray opening.
I don't think it would change that much. Its not that different from a proxy pylon and zealot warpin harass like Huk likes to do. It would change scouting but not so much the harass aspect.
As for speed reaper in a PvZ. Maybe? I don't know how P teching patterns work but reapers require so much gas that it would eat into stalker and robo. I do think it would be stronger in PvZ since you can go 'hey I want reaper now' and warp in 6 immediately. Things are never as certain for Terran.
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well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody
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Wouldn't this just turn PvP into another 4 gate fest since you could gain vision with a repear to warp on the high ground?
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On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :D
So why don't we see 5rax reaper in tvt?
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The only people who think units like reapers and ravens are good are people that dont play terran.
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
So really dont overestimate their usefulness especially for battles and harassment.
Getting an early tech lab, the high gas cost and build time make reapers an investment like most forms of early scouting and limit your options quite a bit. Just building them out of gateways and being able to warp them in anywhere and the general lack of harass units would make them actually better for protoss than for terran I guess.
But then again you need the gas as Protoss and I dont see too many pros getting hallucinate early which is pretty similar I would say as early scouting is generally the only reason we see reapers at all.
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Blink stalkers are amazing at harassment pvz, especially late game. It's like instant drops that recharge in 8 seconds. You blink up a cliff, snipe a hatch and blink back. Protoss are great harassment options with blink and warpin's. Adding reapers sounds like blink stalkers that don't need vision to jump up a cliff, they are very similar tho but I would prefer the stalker in most cases.
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On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
The only people who think units like reapers and ravens are good are people that dont play terran.
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
So really dont overestimate their usefulness especially for battles and harassment.
Getting an early tech lab, the high gas cost and build time make reapers an investment like most forms of early scouting and limit your options quite a bit. Just building them out of gateways and being able to warp them in anywhere and the general lack of harass units would make them actually better for protoss than for terran I guess.
But then again you need the gas as Protoss and I dont see too many pros getting hallucinate early which is pretty similar I would say as early scouting is generally the only reason we see reapers at all.
Going reaper heavy in early game is a good way to do double expands or quick pressure expands. Problem is you will die immediately when Robo units arrive. You'll have like 6 barracks for marauders and marines and maybe ghosts but no medivacs, tanks, or upgrades.
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On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
The only people who think units like reapers and ravens are good are people that dont play terran.
Terrans build units fundamentally different from zerg and protoss. F.e mutalisks would be worse in the hands of a terran or protoss, because you can't mass them as easy as zerg. Zerglings coming out of barracks instead of marines??? Excuse me but that would be so UP...
The flipside is that terran units such as reapers coming out of hatcheries and warpgates in their current state might just be too strong, due to the easy ways to mass them, and less included costs (harder to upgrade units for terran, tech labs, build time).
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On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody
Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map.
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To be fair, reaper in warp in would be pretty silly.
Reaper are balanced with the idea they take a shitlot tons of time to build.
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On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map.
Or it would be like TvT where terrans leave a siege tank and a few marines near the mineral line to prevent drops. Or like BW PvT where terrans had to make turrets and a couple of siege tanks at each base to prevent damage from shuttle/reaver drops.
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I envision something like the reaper, I call it the Shakuran Adept: It's a Protoss unit that is mobile and can harass but comes early enough in the tech tree to be useful. It can cliffwalk, is produced from cyber core ( no warp in), can mind control a single bio unit/non massive at range 7 (marine, marauder, ghost, most zerg, zealot, templar, and other Adept), requires mana to channel the spell, has no attack, hit points are 40/40, passively cloaks when channeling, and costs 100/50.
Thoughts?
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On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map.
Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways.
It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup.
Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here.
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Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?
Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.
By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought.
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On October 21 2011 03:43 tehemperorer wrote:
I envision something like the reaper, I call it the Shakuran Adept: It's a Protoss unit that is mobile and can harass but comes early enough in the tech tree to be useful. It can cliffwalk, is produced from cyber core ( no warp in), can mind control a single bio unit/non massive at range 7 (marine, marauder, ghost, most zerg, zealot, templar, and other Adept), requires mana to channel the spell, has no attack, hit points are 40/40, passively cloaks when channeling, and costs 100/50.
Thoughts?
Passive cloak a bit much considering you could get it before any detection was even possible. I like the idea kind of, of a reaperish unit that had no normal attack, but then it just seems like a worse version of an observer that you can get earlier.
btw, if it did passive cloak wouldn't the observer be completely obsolete?
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On October 21 2011 03:35 Noocta wrote:
To be fair, reaper in warp in would be pretty silly.
Reaper are balanced with the idea they take a shitlot tons of time to build.
People sometimes forget that warp-ins don't build stuff faster than barracks. The unit just comes out near the beginning of the build cycle rather than at the end. You'd still need a ton of gates to make a significant number of reapers just like you currently need a lot of barracks to do so.
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On October 21 2011 03:51 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:43 tehemperorer wrote:
I envision something like the reaper, I call it the Shakuran Adept: It's a Protoss unit that is mobile and can harass but comes early enough in the tech tree to be useful. It can cliffwalk, is produced from cyber core ( no warp in), can mind control a single bio unit/non massive at range 7 (marine, marauder, ghost, most zerg, zealot, templar, and other Adept), requires mana to channel the spell, has no attack, hit points are 40/40, passively cloaks when channeling, and costs 100/50.
Thoughts? Passive cloak a bit much considering you could get it before any detection was even possible. I like the idea kind of, of a reaperish unit that had no normal attack, but then it just seems like a worse version of an observer that you can get earlier. btw, if it did passive cloak wouldn't the observer be completely obsolete?
Hmmm good point... Let's see, it is a passive cloak only when channeling, and that is limited by energy... 25 energy to cast the mind control plus .6 a second for channeling, so the unit is either early but doesn't last long or it's late and lasts longer. For scouting yeah it's good but has to cast mind control at range 7 meaning range 6 units have a chance to kill him, also adept can't move when channeling so if Terran sees where he is when he cloaks, he will keep units there to kill him. Observer flies, requires scan to kill cause is perma cloak, but Adept is easily killable, I dunno, has to be explored. In PvP would be a good scout unit, might delay warpgate tech to get him then start WG, only requires observer to kill when mind controlling, I dunno
EDIT: Seems shitty actually, like a unit that gets used once then dies, maybe change to range 9?
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I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.
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On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.
Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are
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On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote:
Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?
Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.
By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought.
Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho.
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On October 21 2011 03:57 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote:
Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?
Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.
By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought. Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho.
He does it just to negate econ edge by forcing lings right?
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Also, people talk like Reaper is guaranteed scout like an observer. It isn't its really good, but in TvT you see people deny the reaper all the time.
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On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways. It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup. Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here.
This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference.
I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass.
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On October 21 2011 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:57 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote:
Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?
Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.
By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought. Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho. He does it just to negate econ edge by forcing lings right?
yeah, not a bad idea but doesn't do much cause you sacrifice chrono on the gateway instead of nexus so it only gives a 1-2 probe advantage then you'd get off a slightly later pressure.
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On October 21 2011 03:54 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:35 Noocta wrote:
To be fair, reaper in warp in would be pretty silly.
Reaper are balanced with the idea they take a shitlot tons of time to build. People sometimes forget that warp-ins don't build stuff faster than barracks. The unit just comes out near the beginning of the build cycle rather than at the end. You'd still need a ton of gates to make a significant number of reapers just like you currently need a lot of barracks to do so.
Getting a ton of tech lab barracks is much more difficult and limits your options, you have to add the scv mining time and build time and cost of the add-ons too.
Getting 5+ gateways is not really comparable imo.
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On October 21 2011 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:57 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote:
Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?
Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.
By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought. Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho. He does it just to negate econ edge by forcing lings right?
That's why I do it. I assume that's why everyone else does it. It's worth doing, but I think a couple reapers would be better than a couple stalkers.
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On October 21 2011 04:06 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways. It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup. Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here. This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference. I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass.
I guess basically what I am saying is that Protoss is less dependent on early map presence then Terran (at least currently) so yes it is considered standard for them to sit in their base defending a fe while they chrono boost probes and gain an economic advantage. But Terran has this sort of build to with a gasless expand, so maybe that would become even more standard. I think it would kill concussive expands and stuff like that though.
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On October 21 2011 03:57 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable. Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are
Observers work of course, but they require blindly committing to a tech path, and the scout will be relatively late. Zealot Stalker poke won't tell you much except that your opponent, like most Terrans, built a bunker at his ramp. It isn't enough to break a bunker, he's not even forced to reveal his units: at absolute best you force 2 SCVs to be pulled, but you'll still have no scouting information except what he chose to show you.
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upgrade for zealot from cyber to be able to get rocketshoes? yes plz^^
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On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.
You would do it once and die to an allin anyway, not a good idea to overinvest in scouting.
Also getting a reaper doesnt mean full information of what his plan is at all.
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On October 21 2011 04:10 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:06 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways. It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup. Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here. This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference. I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass. I guess basically what I am saying is that Protoss is less dependent on early map presence then Terran (at least currently) so yes it is considered standard for them to sit in their base defending a fe while they chrono boost probes and gain an economic advantage. But Terran has this sort of build to with a gasless expand, so maybe that would become even more standard. I think it would kill concussive expands and stuff like that though.
That's something to think about tho. Currently, if T goes 1-rax expand and P goes 1-gate expand, T can attack without consequence. Would it be so bad if P had a way to pressure back in the same situation?
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On October 21 2011 04:10 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:57 tehemperorer wrote:On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable. Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are Observers work of course, but they require blindly committing to a tech path, and the scout will be relatively late. Zealot Stalker poke won't tell you much except that your opponent, like most Terrans, built a bunker at his ramp. It isn't enough to break a bunker, he's not even forced to reveal his units: at absolute best you force 2 SCVs to be pulled, but you'll still have no scouting information except what he chose to show you.
zeal stalker tells you pretty muhc everything, just look for marauder shots and count them. If they come you should expand and get 2 more gates, if they don't, you expand and get robo and watch their expansion. If CC floats it was 2rax expand, and you should now try to match econ, if no cc for a while it is 1/1/1 so prepare, but should have obs by then. Pretty standard
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On October 21 2011 03:18 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :D So why don't we see 5rax reaper in tvt?
because in TvT you can just defend with bio tank and be fine in TvP u cant just defend vs protoss untill 200 and be fine in TvP u must be aggressive
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On October 21 2011 04:15 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:10 Alzadar wrote:On October 21 2011 03:57 tehemperorer wrote:On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable. Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are Observers work of course, but they require blindly committing to a tech path, and the scout will be relatively late. Zealot Stalker poke won't tell you much except that your opponent, like most Terrans, built a bunker at his ramp. It isn't enough to break a bunker, he's not even forced to reveal his units: at absolute best you force 2 SCVs to be pulled, but you'll still have no scouting information except what he chose to show you. zeal stalker tells you pretty muhc everything, just look for marauder shots and count them. If they come you should expand and get 2 more gates, if they don't, you expand and get robo and watch their expansion. If CC floats it was 2rax expand, and you should now try to match econ, if no cc for a while it is 1/1/1 so prepare, but should have obs by then. Pretty standard
Who leaves their marauders up front just to get scouted by small pokes when they have a bunker and marines?
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If we're going to base a discussion on ifs, I'd say the game would be much better off if no race had reaper like units. Blizzard have pretty much admitted to the unit being a failure in terms of what it was originally intended as. I think the game would be much, much better off if no unit except straight up air units were allowed to circumvent cliffs and defenses. No blinking up cliffs, no low ground to high ground warp ins, no reapers, and the cliff walking siege tank that is the colossus is a failure of a unit on a whole bunch of levels in addition to it walking up cliffs.
The geometry of a map should matter waaaay more than it does in SC2.
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On October 21 2011 04:18 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:18 Resistentialism wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :D So why don't we see 5rax reaper in tvt? because in TvT you can just defend with bio tank and be fine in TvP u cant just defend vs protoss untill 200 and be fine in TvP u must be aggressive
People still aren't getting what it means to have to defend your base, so let's try it this way:
Q: How does T deal with the threat of a warp prism?
A: They mostly ignore it. It's weak enough that T usually doesn't prepare in advance, and if P is persistent with warp prism harass, T will keep a few marines at home until he can patrol a viking to shut it down completely.
Q: How would T deal with the threat of reapers in PvT?
A: They'd either ignore it or keep a marauder at home.
This isn't game-breaking stuff. T makes missile turrets against Z. They leave marines and even tanks at home in TvT. Only against P, which has relatively little harassment potential, does T feel so little threat of harass that they don't preemptively defend their base. And the weird part is that they seem to think that they shouldn't have to.
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On October 21 2011 04:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:10 Atreides wrote:On October 21 2011 04:06 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways. It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup. Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here. This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference. I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass. I guess basically what I am saying is that Protoss is less dependent on early map presence then Terran (at least currently) so yes it is considered standard for them to sit in their base defending a fe while they chrono boost probes and gain an economic advantage. But Terran has this sort of build to with a gasless expand, so maybe that would become even more standard. I think it would kill concussive expands and stuff like that though. That's something to think about tho. Currently, if T goes 1-rax expand and P goes 1-gate expand, T can attack without consequence. Would it be so bad if P had a way to pressure back in the same situation?
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand. So its not terrible imba that it has to be the defensive one. If T goes the economic route (gasless) then they can't really pressure either. Maybe its a factor of how good sentries are early at holding a ramp allowing you to cut corners on defense and send out your "reaper". The terran equivalent, the bunker, is substantially more of an investment then sentries you would get anyway.
To make this all clear I have no problem with P gaining some early game scouting. Its needed. There is a lot of "poke front and make wild guess" that goes on. T early game scouting costs them (scan/reaper) but if they want it bad enough they can get it. However, I don't think they need very early game agressive potential, because their early-midgame (or w/e you define the myriad 4-6g timings and other all-ins) agressive potential is so strong allready.
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On October 21 2011 04:23 Quotidian wrote:
If we're going to base a discussion on ifs, I'd say the game would be much better off if no race had reaper like units. Blizzard have pretty much admitted to the unit being a failure in terms of what it was originally intended as. I think the game would be much, much better off if no unit except straight up air units were allowed to circumvent cliffs and defenses. No blinking up cliffs, no low ground to high ground warp ins, no reapers, and the cliff walking siege tank that is the colossus is a failure of a unit on a whole bunch of levels in addition to it walking up cliffs.
The geometry of a map should matter waaaay more than it does in SC2.
I kind of agree with this, but if you are going to make these kinds of changes you really need to tone down air-to-ground efficiency at the same time. Culprits: banshees, void rays, brood lords.
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And then, well, if banshees, void rays and brood lords are less of a threat, you probably need to change the marine.
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On October 21 2011 04:26 Atreides wrote:
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand.
Negative. Concussive expand gets more income than 1 gate FE because of MULEs. Protoss will have more workers, but less income. P has to find an edge elsewhere to win.
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the reaper would break pvp, but you could just make it so that you cannot warp uphill: only downhill (and on level ground, ofc)
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On October 21 2011 04:26 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:23 Quotidian wrote:
If we're going to base a discussion on ifs, I'd say the game would be much better off if no race had reaper like units. Blizzard have pretty much admitted to the unit being a failure in terms of what it was originally intended as. I think the game would be much, much better off if no unit except straight up air units were allowed to circumvent cliffs and defenses. No blinking up cliffs, no low ground to high ground warp ins, no reapers, and the cliff walking siege tank that is the colossus is a failure of a unit on a whole bunch of levels in addition to it walking up cliffs.
The geometry of a map should matter waaaay more than it does in SC2. I kind of agree with this, but if you are going to make these kinds of changes you really need to tone down air-to-ground efficiency at the same time. Culprits: banshees, void rays, brood lords.
I don't see how you came to that conclusion, since the only unit in the game that can circumvent cliffs and shoot air is the stalker - and the stalker would still be able to do it's anti air job really well even if it couldn't blink up cliffs. Maybe some races need better anti air, but I don't think air to ground needs much changing at all.
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On October 21 2011 04:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:26 Atreides wrote:
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand. Negative. Concussive expand gets more income than 1 gate FE because of MULEs. Protoss will have more workers, but less income. P has to find an edge elsewhere to win.
Any proof for that? So it doesnt matter how much chrono you spend on probes or at what timing you compare the income,the existance of MULEs always means the terran has more income?
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A speedy-harassment unit which doesn't require a huge commitment (like dts) and is accessable quite early in the game (like after the cybernatics core) would be indeed something to provide protoss a very much needed harassment potential (maybe also better early game scouting).
I like that you put effort into this thread talking about the possibilities a unit like the reaper could provide protoss without really needing to think if just adding the reaper itself to protoss would be balanced or not. The OP just tries to point out the possibilities a unit like the reaper would mean for protoss and takes it as granted that blizzard would take the necessary steps to balance it out.
However, whichever harassment unit the protoss might get in hots. I think they will need to fix high-ground warpins (like the OP also stated), which is not necessary for protoss and provides abusive strategies.
I especially agree about the fact that terrans don't need to leave anything at home vs a potential threat of protoss harassment, while it's absolutely normal that protoss has to leave stalkers behind vs drops (although protoss has warpins, they are often on cooldown or at early medivac timings protoss often times doesn't even have enough stuff to defend a 2 medivac drop with one single warpin or they get supply blocked because the drop snipes a single pylon ...).
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On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it?
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On October 21 2011 04:41 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:31 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 04:26 Atreides wrote:
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand. Negative. Concussive expand gets more income than 1 gate FE because of MULEs. Protoss will have more workers, but less income. P has to find an edge elsewhere to win. Any proof for that? So it doesnt matter how much chrono you spend on probes or at what timing you compare the income,the existance of MULEs always means the terran has more income?
I don't have a study to link or anything, but I've played easily over 1,000 1 gate FE's against Terran at a pretty high level of play. Concussive expand starts the CC at about the same time as P starts the nexus (usually a little before), but they float it down to the natural shortly after the nexus completes. T has fewer workers (because P chronos probes and T has to pause building SCVs to make orb commands), but T has more mineral income.
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On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it?
Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless.
That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others.
I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course.
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On October 21 2011 05:09 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it? Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless. That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others. I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course.
This is another point I wanted to make with this discussion. Terran has so many harass options (drops, hellions, banshees, and to an extent, basic MM in the early game) that reapers fade into the background. Terran feels complete and versatile in this regard, and the reaper doesn't have much of a use.
But in the Protoss aresenal, reapers would make a huge difference because it would fill so many roles where Protoss is currently left wanting. When you think about what the reaper would allow Protoss to do differently, you start to see a lot of holes in the Protoss force that could be filled in the expansions.
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On October 21 2011 05:09 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it? Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless. That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others. I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course.
I'm a zerg and I'd trade the hydralisk for the reaper.
please?
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On October 21 2011 05:04 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 04:41 secretary bird wrote:On October 21 2011 04:31 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 04:26 Atreides wrote:
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand. Negative. Concussive expand gets more income than 1 gate FE because of MULEs. Protoss will have more workers, but less income. P has to find an edge elsewhere to win. Any proof for that? So it doesnt matter how much chrono you spend on probes or at what timing you compare the income,the existance of MULEs always means the terran has more income? I don't have a study to link or anything, but I've played easily over 1,000 1 gate FE's against Terran at a pretty high level of play. Concussive expand starts the CC at about the same time as P starts the nexus (usually a little before), but they float it down to the natural shortly after the nexus completes. T has fewer workers (because P chronos probes and T has to pause building SCVs to make orb commands), but T has more mineral income.
You certainly have more experience than me and I cant prove the opposite either.
Its just that I would expect the terran to have mined more minerals and the Protoss to have mined more gas at the 10 minute mark for instance, its just a difficult thing to evaluate with all the factors involved thats all.
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On October 21 2011 05:19 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 05:09 secretary bird wrote:On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it? Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless. That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others. I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course. This is another point I wanted to make with this discussion. Terran has so many harass options (drops, hellions, banshees, and to an extent, basic MM in the early game) that reapers fade into the background. Terran feels complete and versatile in this regard, and the reaper doesn't have much of a use. But in the Protoss aresenal, reapers would make a huge difference because it would fill so many roles where Protoss is currently left wanting. When you think about what the reaper would allow Protoss to do differently, you start to see a lot of holes in the Protoss force that could be filled in the expansions.
I guess blizzard agrees that Protoss needs better harass options, the warpprism buff seems to indicate that.
A ground harass unit for Protoss is one of the most likely new units I think.
Reapers are pretty much the opposite of a Protoss unit, a fast harass unit with low hitpoints so looking at it that way it could be nice for them but I would like a better solution.
And I have no idea how fast hallucinate works out because I never tried it but that seems like an early investment in scouting that Protoss dont like to use so I am not sure if reapers would be used much more in that regard but that all depends on how you would implement it as Protoss is just so much different.
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On October 21 2011 05:28 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 05:09 secretary bird wrote:On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it? Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless. That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others. I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course. I'm a zerg and I'd trade the hydralisk for the reaper. please?
I dunno about that. Hydras are not what they used to be my favorite BW unit but they are used in ZvP and ZvZ by Koreans and against something like mass voids you would probably miss them lol.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 21 2011 05:48 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 05:19 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 05:09 secretary bird wrote:On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it? Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless. That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others. I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course. This is another point I wanted to make with this discussion. Terran has so many harass options (drops, hellions, banshees, and to an extent, basic MM in the early game) that reapers fade into the background. Terran feels complete and versatile in this regard, and the reaper doesn't have much of a use. But in the Protoss aresenal, reapers would make a huge difference because it would fill so many roles where Protoss is currently left wanting. When you think about what the reaper would allow Protoss to do differently, you start to see a lot of holes in the Protoss force that could be filled in the expansions. I guess blizzard agrees that Protoss needs better harass options, the warpprism buff seems to indicate that. A ground harass unit for Protoss is one of the most likely new units I think. Reapers are pretty much the opposite of a Protoss unit, a fast harass unit with low hitpoints so looking at it that way it could be nice for them but I would like a better solution. And I have no idea how fast hallucinate works out because I never tried it but that seems like an early investment in scouting that Protoss dont like to use so I am not sure if reapers would be used much more in that regard but that all depends on how you would implement it as Protoss is just so much different.
Hallucination is a big gas investment in something that isn't tech, and has the wonderful virtue of requiring sentry energy to use. Add into the fact that right when it comes out (you have to get warp gate first), you have it just in time to spot the all-in that's about to hit you in the face but have no time to react, and you see why.
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On October 21 2011 03:22 Krayze wrote:
Blink stalkers are amazing at harassment pvz, especially late game. It's like instant drops that recharge in 8 seconds. You blink up a cliff, snipe a hatch and blink back. Protoss are great harassment options with blink and warpin's. Adding reapers sounds like blink stalkers that don't need vision to jump up a cliff, they are very similar tho but I would prefer the stalker in most cases.
No, I agree with the OP more. Reapers on the Protoss team would truly be game changing in a good way with a few tweaks... maybe including not allowing high ground warp in.
Protoss need early game scouting against T more than anybody. Blink obviously not useful for scouting (or getting in and out). It comes too late.
P early scouting in PvP would be phenomenal!
Sure, super late game blink stalker armies can harass if they have a mothership for recall, otherwise they are spotted by creep tumors and flanked too easily.
Warpins are OK, but zealots are the least efficient worker killer out of the low tech options. Stalkers are the worst units against workers in the game, save immortals. FFs in the worker line is something if you catch the guy who isn't watching his base closely... but long term those are going to be easily countered by just moving your workers as soon as you see the red dot in your base on the minimap.
I also don't think a reaper-type unit would need to be good against static defense for it to work on the Protoss team. Just needs to be able to cliff jump and kill a few workers if there is no defense in place. And having shields would be enough to make its recycle harass ability more than worth it.
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On October 21 2011 02:48 rpgalon wrote:
I can see a zealot reaper with upgrades being a good mix early game against marine/marauder.
zealots tank, while reapers kill the kiting marines.
you can use the reapers to harrass too. so you can have a mobile protoss army.
terran have so much shit, that they don't even need things like reapers or sensor tower.
protoss has to put like pylons+observers all over the map just to have a chance to spot a mediavec that can easily retreat, give us sensor tower!! =P
If anything could change, getting a reaper-sh unit and a sensor tower would be incredible for Protoss. They would get so much more mileage out of those two things, I can feel my mouth watering.
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This isn't game-breaking stuff. T makes missile turrets against Z. They leave marines and even tanks at home in TvT. Only against P, which has relatively little harassment potential, does T feel so little threat of harass that they don't preemptively defend their base. And the weird part is that they seem to think that they shouldn't have to.
That's why I like this discussion. Reveals a sense of entitlement to dealing with Protoss harass in the conventional ways. But but ... TvT and TvZ is different! ><
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I don't get it why protosses want a harass unit?
Phoenix, DT, warp prism and any proxy pylon?
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This might be a little off-topic. However, I would like to see reapers able to get a cloak upgrade. It makes sense to me. They are slow to build, and very weak, and designed to be harassing. Late game reapers simply cannot be used against a good opponent because the map is scouted for the most part. Cloaking would allow reapers to scale to late game IMO.
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I admire your way of thinking, I guess that's why Blizzard will add some sort of reaperish to the protoss army. But we can only hope still I feel that it only requires Cybernetics Core, to be honest I suspect this reaper from protoss either coming from Robotics or Stargate.
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On October 21 2011 06:01 decaf wrote:
I don't get it why protosses want a harass unit?
Phoenix, DT, warp prism and any proxy pylon?
Cheap and early to obtain harass unit. You harass early on, rest of game is sizeable battles. Phoenix, DT, WP are all investments that dictate what you as P player are going to do in the next 5 minutes of the game, just because you wanted a harass unit. DT is a solid tech unit used for harass, so is phoenix, they aren't pure "harass units" like the reaper is. You make TC, then shrine, then you make dt, and use it to harass. Now what? Hope you stalled them long enough to get sizeable robo force?
Reaper is nothing out of the way, you make rax as normal, tech lab as normal, then a reaper before getting standard units. It allows for a slight addition to your abilities at that point in the game without committing to a tech path like all the Protoss "harass" units.
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On October 21 2011 05:52 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 05:48 secretary bird wrote:On October 21 2011 05:19 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 05:09 secretary bird wrote:On October 21 2011 04:54 Fairwell wrote:On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote:
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it.
Protoss and Zerg don't even have nearly as many units or upgrades as are available for terrans and new units and upgrades are going to be introduced in hots, so why would you need to replace an existing unit for it? Zerg has less units , Protoss doesnt and the upgrades are pretty useless. That wasnt the point though you wouldnt have to give up a unit but almost any unit is used at certain times and a good unit would really have to stand out in terms of utility compared to others. I was trying to say that reapers arent such a unit and Zergs and Protoss wouldnt really want it that badly , just having an additional unit is always good of course. This is another point I wanted to make with this discussion. Terran has so many harass options (drops, hellions, banshees, and to an extent, basic MM in the early game) that reapers fade into the background. Terran feels complete and versatile in this regard, and the reaper doesn't have much of a use. But in the Protoss aresenal, reapers would make a huge difference because it would fill so many roles where Protoss is currently left wanting. When you think about what the reaper would allow Protoss to do differently, you start to see a lot of holes in the Protoss force that could be filled in the expansions. I guess blizzard agrees that Protoss needs better harass options, the warpprism buff seems to indicate that. A ground harass unit for Protoss is one of the most likely new units I think. Reapers are pretty much the opposite of a Protoss unit, a fast harass unit with low hitpoints so looking at it that way it could be nice for them but I would like a better solution. And I have no idea how fast hallucinate works out because I never tried it but that seems like an early investment in scouting that Protoss dont like to use so I am not sure if reapers would be used much more in that regard but that all depends on how you would implement it as Protoss is just so much different. Hallucination is a big gas investment in something that isn't tech, and has the wonderful virtue of requiring sentry energy to use. Add into the fact that right when it comes out (you have to get warp gate first), you have it just in time to spot the all-in that's about to hit you in the face but have no time to react, and you see why.
I will take your word for it. Sadly the warp gate research increase cancels out the decrease for hallus. The sentry and upgrade remain useful long term though while the reaper is a one time thing.
It somewhat depends on the allin you're worried about but something like 8 min(?) is a lot later than a reaper thats true, you could always just change the upgrade in some way that could be a good idea.
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I find it interesting that the protoss and zerg seem to desperately want a reaper (or reaper type unit) while the terrans all pretty much are saying why would you want an almost useless unit. I do agree that Protoss would benefit from some sort of fast early game harass unit for more options... except in a way Toss already has in Stalkers. Only problem is that they are relatively expensive and cannot cliff walk compared to the reaper. I don't want this to be taken incorrectly but the races are supposed to be unique and different. Having a reaperish unit at the same tech time (about) to both Zerg and Protoss merely because Terran has one seems to head toward an every race must be very similar. In fact the new Toss unit seems to me to be a Banshee type harass unit that only attacks ground (just my prediction)... I do agree that perhaps some more options should be opened up for Zerg and Protoss in some way to allow for more strategies. But to try to fine-tune balance the game, just by giving races units because other races have these types of units... I dunno just seems like a cop-out on Blizz's part and make SC2 not the great RTS it is and can be.
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Hmmm... I think PvP would be slightly inoperable. Imagine, one player attempts to play defensively... they would need to invest in reapers and sentries to survive. Why? Because reaper 6 gates (on one base) would be utterly overpowering. Sentries, as light units get splattered by reapers, and so a completely sentry base defense would be idiotic... though sentry stalker would also give your opponent a mineral advantage with aggressive reaper play. If you're thinking that stalker sentry could beat pure reaper, or even reaper stalker, you're probably right, but early game reaper/zealot would be utterly overwhelming. Almost like making reapers with 200 base HP.
That's why I think the metagame would progress into a reaper vs reaper fest that would early expand with mineral surplus... or degenerate into reaper/zealot(with one seriously protected guardian shield sentry) fests... Also, reapers have a long build time for a reason... and warp tech reverses the production cycle... imagine having 7 reapers by the 6:00 mark O.o
Protoss doesn't really fit with serious poking harass units... It just feels hella weird... Imagine LiquidHero playing vZ where he warps in three tank zealots and four reapers from a warp prism into a zerg base.... It would completely nullify spinecrawler defenses (also, seeing as Protoss gets attack upgrades the quickest of the three races reaper building snipes would be ludicrous)... could you fathom how Zerg would have to learn to play? Completely surround every base with overlords and either go for heavy air play or... well, I guess it would almost be like playing ZvT... except that the drop can just never end... and the dropship outruns your mutalisks O.O
I don't think it would really change much in PvT.... i mean, the zealot stalker poke would become the zealot reaper poke... and Terrans would likely need to techlab first every game for fear of a reaper 4 gate or even a zealot reaper push killing any defensive marines and sniping buildings so quick. Hmm... I guess it does change a lot. And similarly warp prism harass would be mega buffed... imagine 12 idle gateways... suddenly 12 reapers in your base with 12 more to follow in 25ish seconds! The moment a warp prism would show up Terrans would just lift all their buildings xDDDD
Oh man... I hate you Cecil... you have me dreaming of viable Protoss reaper double expands...
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On October 21 2011 06:36 27Odawg wrote:
I find it interesting that the protoss and zerg seem to desperately want a reaper (or reaper type unit) while the terrans all pretty much are saying why would you want an almost useless unit. I do agree that Protoss would benefit from some sort of fast early game harass unit for more options... except in a way Toss already has in Stalkers. Only problem is that they are relatively expensive and cannot cliff walk compared to the reaper. I don't want this to be taken incorrectly but the races are supposed to be unique and different. Having a reaperish unit at the same tech time (about) to both Zerg and Protoss merely because Terran has one seems to head toward an every race must be very similar. In fact the new Toss unit seems to me to be a Banshee type harass unit that only attacks ground (just my prediction)... I do agree that perhaps some more options should be opened up for Zerg and Protoss in some way to allow for more strategies. But to try to fine-tune balance the game, just by giving races units because other races have these types of units... I dunno just seems like a cop-out on Blizz's part and make SC2 not the great RTS it is and can be.
It's not that everyone wants to have a reaper, but like you stated, a reaper like unit or lets put it in a more general consensus: Some kind of speedy harassment unit which doesn't require you to commit fully to some kind of expensive tech (such as early dark shrine). If terrans go for a banshee, a reaper, a hellion or even fast dropship of some sort, they don't need to get any additional tech they wouldn't use right after for their normal army composition (like getting a single prism while adding robo bay for harass is no additional expense, but going for fast stargate just to get 1-2 voids is).
Every race should have different units and that's also how blizzard is approaching the game (fortunately, otherwise starcraft wouldn't be as awsome as it is). However, being able to have simply more options in the game (just think about how many ways terrans have to open the game without going onebase allin), if it's openings, harassment or general playstyle (unit composition) etc is just good for the game. The protoss race as it stands right now is lacking in some kind of raid unit (like blizzard admits as well) and this would make all protoss matchups way more interesting.
Be honest, do you think it's better for protoss to get another colossus-like unit or rather some of harassment unit? I think many people in this thread take "reaper for protoss" word-by-word, which the OP didn't intend at all. He clearly states that he is just talking about a unit of that style and its influences it would make for playing protoss for the better. I hope other people will start seeing that.
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I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
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Dude phoenix is good enough as a harass unit!
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2011 07:38 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 06:36 27Odawg wrote:
I find it interesting that the protoss and zerg seem to desperately want a reaper (or reaper type unit) while the terrans all pretty much are saying why would you want an almost useless unit. I do agree that Protoss would benefit from some sort of fast early game harass unit for more options... except in a way Toss already has in Stalkers. Only problem is that they are relatively expensive and cannot cliff walk compared to the reaper. I don't want this to be taken incorrectly but the races are supposed to be unique and different. Having a reaperish unit at the same tech time (about) to both Zerg and Protoss merely because Terran has one seems to head toward an every race must be very similar. In fact the new Toss unit seems to me to be a Banshee type harass unit that only attacks ground (just my prediction)... I do agree that perhaps some more options should be opened up for Zerg and Protoss in some way to allow for more strategies. But to try to fine-tune balance the game, just by giving races units because other races have these types of units... I dunno just seems like a cop-out on Blizz's part and make SC2 not the great RTS it is and can be. It's not that everyone wants to have a reaper, but like you stated, a reaper like unit or lets put it in a more general consensus: Some kind of speedy harassment unit which doesn't require you to commit fully to some kind of expensive tech (such as early dark shrine). If terrans go for a banshee, a reaper, a hellion or even fast dropship of some sort, they don't need to get any additional tech they wouldn't use right after for their normal army composition (like getting a single prism while adding robo bay for harass is no additional expense, but going for fast stargate just to get 1-2 voids is). Every race should have different units and that's also how blizzard is approaching the game (fortunately, otherwise starcraft wouldn't be as awsome as it is). However, being able to have simply more options in the game (just think about how many ways terrans have to open the game without going onebase allin), if it's openings, harassment or general playstyle (unit composition) etc is just good for the game. The protoss race as it stands right now is lacking in some kind of raid unit (like blizzard admits as well) and this would make all protoss matchups way more interesting. Be honest, do you think it's better for protoss to get another colossus-like unit or rather some of harassment unit? I think many people in this thread take "reaper for protoss" word-by-word, which the OP didn't intend at all. He clearly states that he is just talking about a unit of that style and its influences it would make for playing protoss for the better. I hope other people will start seeing that.
I mostly agree with you and the OP about Protoss getting a harass type unit that is not the reaper. I will take issue with your comment about how it's so simple for a Terran to get a reaper, hellion or even fast dropship for harass. Sure without a doubt the Terran's tech tree is more streamlined than the other races, but if you spend the time to get reapers or hellions or a fast dropship the Terran will be weak to most kinds of pressure. I've tried to get hellions for harass against Toss in the early and mid game (just a lowly Plat) and it doesn't work if the Toss is competent (due to Stalkers being prevelant and massive micro requirements to kill zealots if you have say 2-4 hellions). The only time I think I ever saw truly effective early to mid game hellions was Byun vs a P in game 1 of GSL code A I think it was and that was with marines and dropships for support (may have been some marauders or tanks but I don't remember). Basically any Terran who is going for Hellions or Reapers or a fast dropship for harass can and (I think) should be punished. If he goes fast dropship most likely that's all his army in there, you can go kill him and hope to hold it with warp-ins or defend it then expand or push as you're way ahead. Same with Hellions. I have a feeling some may disagree with this assessment though.
I hope that Protoss does get some sort of unit that helps them in terms of map control and moves them away from get 2-3 base turtle till large army deathball move... expand again, rebuild to large army deathball move rinse repeat. It would be cool if they did get another unit that allowed them to be a bit more free around the map. But too much would be a problem as with the overall strength of a protoss army compared to other units, throw in the harass units with that and how does T or Z handle this. T splits the P army because Terrans don't want to engage army to army unless up on food count, upgrades or has great positioning. What happens if a Protoss can split the Terran army and then force an engageent against the main T army? (We're all theorycrafting here so here's some of my attempts at it).
I do want to ask how much of a problem throwing down a Stargate and making 1 or 2 phoenixes for looking for expos or patrolling for drops would be. Is that going to hurt a Toss so much economically that it's not worth it? I know it's another advanced building but Phoenix build fast and are kinda cheap for Toss right? I honestly don't know just asking. And another question if given some sort of unit to help early scouting (a reaper type unit) would you be willing to see a price increase on the observer?
Again on topic, I agree that Toss seems to need some sort of fleshing out and a raid or harass unit may help this. I fell it just can't be because "Terran has reaper for harass/scouting, Zerg has speedlings for counterattacks, Toss needs to have something at this timing because they're being left out of having this early game" Just my opinion. Zerg (and even Terran) aren't saying they want some sort of space controlling (forcefields) caster, Sentry, because Toss has one. My favorite part of this game is the differences in the races and the strategies and playstyles that creates. To make them more homogeneous and similar would just take that away. So in short I'm agreeing with you just with hesitancy and caution. Why can't we all be friends 
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On October 21 2011 07:54 castled wrote:
I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
it looks bad for terran because they have better things to use, you have no idea how desperate protoss are for some sort of harras unit that is not gimmick or all inish or just bad.
phoenix lol, just compare the damage 4 phoenix can do to a mineral line to something like 4 banelings or 4 hydras or 4 hellions or 4 banshees.
blink stalkers... do you knew that 2 probes can kill workers faster than a stalker?? it takes 7,2 seconds for a stalker to kill a single scv... makes me think that when your mineral line is being attacked by stalkers, maybe you should grab like 5 scv and activate auto repair to deny the damage....
protoss is so desperate for a decent harrass unit T_T
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United States7483 Posts
On October 21 2011 08:03 canSore wrote:
Dude phoenix is good enough as a harass unit!
No, no it isn't. It's so gimmicky, expensive, and doesn't do enough damage. The energy requirement to hurt ground units and inability to do damage to buildings hurts them too much.
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If you honestly think Protoss would use them to harass mid-game where Terrans are not, I do not know what to say. You say 'Warp Prisms are shut down by vikings'... Reapers are shut down a hell of a lot easier than that...
The entire premise of this thread is idiotic to me... Next you'll be asking what if Zerg had Ravens or something. I really do not see how giving Reapers to Protoss would not result in much more than abusive 1 base all ins and blink stalker shenanigans
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On October 21 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 08:03 canSore wrote:
Dude phoenix is good enough as a harass unit! No, no it isn't. It's so gimmicky, expensive, and doesn't do enough damage. The energy requirement to hurt ground units and inability to do damage to buildings hurts them too much.
Don't forget that it only lasts about 7-10 seconds then they gotta go home and get more energy and pray you don't put up a single turret in a time span of about 1:15 game minutes.
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On October 21 2011 08:48 Huggerz wrote:
If you honestly think Protoss would use them to harass mid-game where Terrans are not, I do not know what to say. You say 'Warp Prisms are shut down by vikings'... Reapers are shut down a hell of a lot easier than that...
The entire premise of this thread is idiotic to me... Next you'll be asking what if Zerg had Ravens or something. I really do not see how giving Reapers to Protoss would not result in much more than abusive 1 base all ins and blink stalker shenanigans
protoss are droping sentries in mineral lines... you have no idea what protoss would do with reapers...
why would terran use reapers when they can drop marines
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On October 21 2011 07:54 castled wrote:
I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
You're not really in the right vein of thought when you talk about taking up barracks building time. We're saying a unit like that would be better in the hands of other races because yes, Terrans have better options than reapers (I wish that were my problem as Protoss).
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On October 21 2011 08:48 Huggerz wrote:
If you honestly think Protoss would use them to harass mid-game where Terrans are not, I do not know what to say. You say 'Warp Prisms are shut down by vikings'... Reapers are shut down a hell of a lot easier than that...
The entire premise of this thread is idiotic to me... Next you'll be asking what if Zerg had Ravens or something. I really do not see how giving Reapers to Protoss would not result in much more than abusive 1 base all ins and blink stalker shenanigans
I definitely would, you need to think straight. My harassment options involve heavy teching, Terran doesn't have that problem. Give me a reaper-like unit and I will use it a hell of a lot more than Terrans do, and to be clear, Terrans aren't making reapers because they're a bad unit; they're not making them because they have several better options.
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Why is this thread allowed when there are threads closed each day that are extemely similiar?
How is this helping strategic thinking about what if we had a mobile cliff jumper scout?
Where should we go to next?
What if Protoss had faster detection?
What if Protoss stalkers didn't have overkill?
What if Immortals could be warped in from warpgates? What are the ramifications of being able to have a stronger immortal backbone instead of a stalker force?
How is any of this useful? Protoss don't have reapers. Thinking about getting cliff jumpers is about as useful as thinking "What if Protoss got marines?" Maybe they'll get them, but we don't know. Only Blizzard does.
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Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now.
Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of.
He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know.
DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time (like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it!
So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me.
I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball.
But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses.
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Protoss harass options are really good, you don't have to be Liquid`Hero to use a warp prism, but even just putting proxy pylons around the map and warping in 4 zealots and rallying them to your opponent's mineral line and that's pretty effective harass that anybody can do
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On October 21 2011 07:54 castled wrote:
I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
The gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech huh? How about the gas cost of sentries, which protosses are forced to make pretty much every game?
I would definitely use the reaper if it was protoss unit, because toss is missing something cheap that can harass and scout. But if I played terran, I would hardly ever want to make one, because they have so many other strong options already.
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I'm sure its been mentioned already, but a reaper would really allow the P meta game to expand further in PvZ and primarily in PvT. How much easier would it be to stop a 1-1-1 if you knew not only that it was coming, but which of the many variants it would be? How much easier would it be to do a timing vs zerg, when you can discover whether or not you'll be able to safely move out.
Really the big advantage it would provide is the early game scouting. As is, P scouting is good in the mid game...after all early game choices leading up to the mid game have been decided. A unit with early scouting abilites like the reaper would allow P to be much more reactionary.
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One of the big reasons why terrans don't use reapers is bc of there super long build time, I see protoss with a unit like a reaper being able to do these riducolous counter push's with them. Just after an even exchange warp in 6 reapers and they could be across the map super fast.... It would be crazy hard to deal with IMO.
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On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses.
everyone who tried at least once, knows that multipronged drops are very, very easy to do, it is easy to do with terran, with zerg and with protoss, it just looks cool and all, looks like you are outplaying your opponent hard, defending the drop is much harder than doing it, and if you play protoss it is even harder.
I hope someday people start to apreciate more the guy that is defending drops than the guy that is doing then.
Anyway, the warp prism is now, i think, the BEST dropship in the game, BUT, what are you going to drop as protoss?
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On October 21 2011 10:17 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses. everyone who tried at least once, knows that multipronged drops are very, very easy to do, it is easy to do with terran, with zerg and with protoss, it just looks cool and all, looks like you are outplaying your opponent hard, defending the drop is much harder than doing it, and if you play protoss it is even harder. I hope someday people start to apreciate more the guy that is defending drops than the guy that is doing then. Anyway, the warp prism is now, i think, the BEST dropship in the game, BUT, what are you going to drop as protoss?
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not
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On October 21 2011 10:17 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses. everyone who tried at least once, knows that multipronged drops are very, very easy to do, it is easy to do with terran, with zerg and with protoss, it just looks cool and all, looks like you are outplaying your opponent hard, defending the drop is much harder than doing it, and if you play protoss it is even harder. I hope someday people start to apreciate more the guy that is defending drops than the guy that is doing then. Anyway, the warp prism is now, i think, the BEST dropship in the game, BUT, what are you going to drop as protoss?
umm.. the problem is warp prism without speed is honestly pretty shitty. If you're lucky, you might be able to get around ~6 worker kills with a 3 sentry 1 zealot drop early on, but after that your opponent will be prepared.
More importantly, collosus range is required and will always be researched first - further delaying any potential of midgame warp prism play.
Even if all this went according to plan, lets just say you drop 4 zealots per drop. If the opponent reacts fast enough (zealots are slowww), your opponent suffers minimum losses. It's rather sad that 8 marines, worth 400 minerals can go postal on workers and potentially snipe a Nexus, while multiple zealots will do dick all usually.
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On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses.
Warp prisms are definitely decent. I use them a lot, but there are limitations. First, the units you wind up dropping are usually zealots which make workers run away but don't kill them. So it's not nearly as damaging as a Terran drop. Second, they clog your robo queue which is a vital resource. Third, there's limited windows where they're effective. Against Terran, you want to expand (and have Terran expand) before you start doing drop harass which slows things down, and then you're really only effective until vikings come out. In the late game, you can fly around a couple speed prisms hoping not to get caught by vikings, but Terran wants to have a half dozen vikings anyway. It's not like forcing him to make vikings plays into your hand.
Against Zerg, prisms are better. Zerg doesn't have much AA, so they don't have a good way to shut down warp prism harass until spire.
In both cases tho, warp prisms are late and don't do much damage. Protoss would love to have something earlier and more effective.
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Well zerg is in the same boat tbh as zerg can't even deal with getting around wall-offs like you toss boyz. Reaper harass doesn't really do damage just like zealot harass. Instead it forces people back to their base and forces static defense.
I think you're looking at it with rose tinted spectacles really.
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Reapers would be pretty good in pvp to snipe enemy pylons.
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Canada13379 Posts
On October 21 2011 10:52 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well zerg is in the same boat tbh as zerg can't even deal with getting around wall-offs like you toss boyz. Reaper harass doesn't really do damage just like zealot harass. Instead it forces people back to their base and forces static defense.
I think you're looking at it with rose tinted spectacles really.
But lets look at the game in its entirety.
Zerg can get an FE up very safely relative to protoss. It doesnt matter so much what the opening is from Terran. Zerg gets an FE, they then build spine crawlers, queens and zerglings - sometimes roaches. The Benefit to Zerg is that as long as you see something coming you can just build it right away.
The threat of mutalisks requires Terran to invest into static defence such as turrets and they must leave something behind.
Zealots are melee. Whereas reapers are ranged. Reapers once in a base can chase workers more effectively than zealots can.
Warp prisms dont really force much static defense and very few units really need to be left behind to deal with it. A single viking or two can be left around for defense whereas the same cannot be said for a large number of mutalisks.
The vikings are also normally made in TvP so its not much of a stretch to go and get them.
I'm not saying everything is rosy for zerg but you cannot just say that reapers arent a big deal because P has prisms and can already get past wall offs and Zerg can't. This simply isn't true. Having reapers as protoss or a similar unit would allow for scouting and effective early harass.
Imagine the following: Protoss does a 1 gate FE. They make a zealot, a stalker then the speedy harass unit (reaper). Terran does a 2 rax into expand. Instead of walking cross map with every single unit Terran has made and rallying, they need to leave a marauder or two marines or some other units back at home to defend against the eventual unit harass. The 2 rax wouldn't be as difficult to hold when doing 1 gate FE as it is now. The Terran wouldn't have a reaper come into the back of the protoss base and kill probes while a zealot and 2 stalkers try to keep a bunker from going up and a handful off MM units from denying the expansion or doing serious damage. The whole ability to get an FE up would be much easier for protoss. This is important because without an expansion holding a late 1-1-1 is more difficult.
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That's 2 stalkers or half a sentry worth of gas down the tubes. Can you really hold it with that much gas pumped into a reaper?
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On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not
Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though).
Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so).
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On October 21 2011 12:04 ZeromuS wrote:
Warp prisms dont really force much static defense and very few units really need to be left behind to deal with it. A single viking or two can be left around for defense whereas the same cannot be said for a large number of mutalisks.
A larger investment requires a larger defence.
Who knew?
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On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so).
2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them
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On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do).
I can just as easily say that a "properly microed" lategame protoss army will beat a MMM+GV army with "proper micro" every time, since the lategame protoss army is so much stronger than the terran army. It's just that no one has micro that is that good, where they never make mistakes. So what's the point of making statements like that in the first place?
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I think you're overestimating reaper harass capabilities. A single reaper typically won't do much damage at all. They're good if your opponent doesn't suspect them, but their build time is really slow, and making more than 1 can be really costly, especially when you don't have bunkers as protoss. I don't really see a build that could afford to make more than 2 and not expect to die to a zerg or maybe a 2 rax. And even if you make 3 or more, you need to catch them off guard for it to work because they're very fragile and a few shots from the high ground will take them out.
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On October 21 2011 18:47 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 18:26 Quotidian wrote:On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). I can just as easily say that a "properly microed" lategame protoss army will beat a MMM+GV army with "proper micro" every time, since the lategame protoss army is so much stronger than the terran army. It's just that no one has micro that is that good, where they never make mistakes. So what's the point of making statements like that in the first place? Not really. If the Terran gets off all their EMPs (EMP outranges feedback, Ghosts can cloak, Ghosts are faster than Templar) and the Vikings aren't floated straight over the Stalkers (Vikings have a massive range, Stalkers don't) then the Protoss loses no matter how good their micro is. No Colossus, no storms, no forcefields and no shields against a stimmed, healed Terran army = GG. The only way Protoss can win (assuming equal upgrades etc.) is if the Terran makes a massive mistake, which means as a Protoss you're always just hoping for the other person to do something wrong... which isn't that much of a problem at a low level where people are prone to making mistakes, but is a massive problem the top-top-level 'cause those guys don't make that many mistakes (see GSL Terran dominance).
I dont think just EMP everything and good viking control means you crush the deathball in fact I know it doesnt and saying you need MASSIVE mistakes by the terran to win is just wrong. How many Code S games have you seen where the Protoss has perfect control with a perfect army like that and just gets owned , it usually doesnt even get to that point.
But even if you're right thats completely off topic.
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On October 21 2011 17:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so). 2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them
storm takes 2 seconds to kill probe/drone and 3 seconds to kill scv (terran imba).
you have to fly the templars till they get in range to storm, and then wait then drop, it is like +3-4s
so you had like 5-7s to react and kill the 2 templars +prism
and I can't see 30 workers being killed, it is more something like 6-14, storm has 1.5 radius, why do you put 30 workers in one mineral line? at least tell 6 to long distance mine.
On October 21 2011 13:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:
That's 2 stalkers or half a sentry worth of gas down the tubes. Can you really hold it with that much gas pumped into a reaper?
it's only 1 stalker worth of gas, 75 minerals cheaper and half the supply.
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On October 21 2011 17:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so). 2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them
The point of this thread was to bring up the problem of lack of fast early-game scout and harass, of the sort offered by the Reaper, for Protoss.
High Templar aren't an early-game harrass unit, nor are they a scouting unit. Not to mention that its a pretty big tech investment to get HT and Storm. And if you want to drop them you need to get a robo and warp prism and wait for energy to build up. And if they're dropping your opponent's mineral lines they're not with the army; where they NEED to be to deal with the Terran bio ball, because you don't have Colossi yet having teched to Templars first instead.
You might as well say "drop Colossi". Not saying it can't be effective. I'm saying its a large tech commitment, large resource commitment and, more to the point, isn't an early-game fast harrass/scout option.
Theres a lot of people saying "use this" or "use that" and then going on about DTs or Phoenixes or Warp Prisms. Have you people even played Protoss? Lets review these three popular comments:
Warp Prisms - they're great. And good for mid to late game two-pronged attacks. But how does that help early game harrass and scouting exactly? What you going to drop for that? Zealots with their melee attack and slow movement? Stalkers which are expensive and aren't that good against workers? Sentries with their massive gas cost and which are desparately needed at your base to hold off the predictable early attacks?
Dark Templars - amazing units if your opponent doesn't realise they're coming but you generally get one shot to use them before your opponent realises and puts detection everywhere. More to the point they take forever to tech to and are expensive.
Phoenixes - pushes you into the Stargate tech. You need a fair few of them to be effective. Cannot shoot ground and require energy to harrass with. Plus can't do anything to buildings and rarely that effective late game because they're very specialised. And you can't really get them out THAT fast.
In order to do any of these three you need to make a tech commitment which, if you end up giving up on because your harrass wasn't working, is a fairly big loss.
To compare: if a terran gets a reaper that costs him 50/50 and 45 seconds build, if that doesn't work out all that has been lost is the 50/50 cost of the reaper because the tech required (barracks and tech lab) you either have to build just to open your tech choices or get built anway for stim. If a Protoss goes for DTs then that costs 150/100 Twilight Council (50 seconds), 100/250 Dark Shrine (100 seconds) and 125/125 DT (45 seconds cooldown on the warpgate). So compare 50/50 and 45 seconds out of barracks time with 250/350 and 150 seconds of tech buildings plus another 125/125 disposable loss on the DT which actually puts the gate in question on cooldown for as long as it takes to build a Reaper (numbers are all from liquipedia); plus it pushes you onto the Templar tech path whereas a reaper is a throwaway tech choice (you can get Marauders and stim instead off the same tech setup). You can do the same comparison for any of the others, Phoenix (requires at least two, to lift and damage) needs 450/350 and 130 seconds (assuming one Stargate) and pushes you onto the Stargate tech. Probably the most stable is Warp Prism harrass because both Robos and Warp Prisms are very versatile; however thats still a 200/0 50 second investment in a Warp Prism (tying up your robo so it can't produce a quick immortal or observer, arguably both more important than a quicker marine) as well as the cost of however many gateway units you want, plus the cooldowns on gateways and for generally less effect than a Terran marine drop and possibly even less effect than just building a few reapers.
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On October 21 2011 03:41 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Or it would be like TvT where terrans leave a siege tank and a few marines near the mineral line to prevent drops. Or like BW PvT where terrans had to make turrets and a couple of siege tanks at each base to prevent damage from shuttle/reaver drops.
except in broodwar tanks were 2 supply not 3 and so was much more viable to leave them to be defensie while u rarmy would not be as weakened u would be sup[rised how big of a difference a few tanks can be in a major engagment.,
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On October 21 2011 20:35 cristo1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:41 Piledriver wrote:On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Or it would be like TvT where terrans leave a siege tank and a few marines near the mineral line to prevent drops. Or like BW PvT where terrans had to make turrets and a couple of siege tanks at each base to prevent damage from shuttle/reaver drops. except in broodwar tanks were 2 supply not 3 and so was much more viable to leave them to be defensie while u rarmy would not be as weakened u would be sup[rised how big of a difference a few tanks can be in a major engagment.,
Leaving one tank and, say, three marines to prevent a drop is 6 supply. Leaving three Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries behind to defend against a drop is also 6 supply. However three Zealots or Stalkers or Sentries are probably not going to be enough to kill off a harrass drop whereas a tank and three marines might well be especially given that you have SCVs to repair the tank literally right by it, mining away.
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On October 21 2011 18:47 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 18:26 Quotidian wrote:On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). I can just as easily say that a "properly microed" lategame protoss army will beat a MMM+GV army with "proper micro" every time, since the lategame protoss army is so much stronger than the terran army. It's just that no one has micro that is that good, where they never make mistakes. So what's the point of making statements like that in the first place? Not really. If the Terran gets off all their EMPs (EMP outranges feedback, Ghosts can cloak, Ghosts are faster than Templar) and the Vikings aren't floated straight over the Stalkers (Vikings have a massive range, Stalkers don't) then the Protoss loses no matter how good their micro is. No Colossus, no storms, no forcefields and no shields against a stimmed, healed Terran army = GG. The only way Protoss can win (assuming equal upgrades etc.) is if the Terran makes a massive mistake, which means as a Protoss you're always just hoping for the other person to do something wrong... which isn't that much of a problem at a low level where people are prone to making mistakes, but is a massive problem the top-top-level 'cause those guys don't make that many mistakes (see GSL Terran dominance).
if protoss spreads properly, snipes vikings with blink stalkers and lands feedbacks (which they will with proper micro because feedback is instant cast and EMP has a travel time) then protoss will win every time. Etc etc ad infinitum
Just stop talking in ifs, non-specifics and generalities, it really serves no purpose. Everything can be counter-argued by just mirroring the original argument and it's always just as valid as what was originally presented as the argument.
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Love the idea!
I do like how reapers affect openings in TvT though. Its sometimes the only thing that forces me to get 2 marines/have marines in base instead of towers right from the start.
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On October 21 2011 20:07 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 17:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so). 2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them storm takes 2 seconds to kill probe/drone and 3 seconds to kill scv (terran imba). you have to fly the templars till they get in range to storm, and then wait then drop, it is like +3-4s so you had like 5-7s to react and kill the 2 templars +prism and I can't see 30 workers being killed, it is more something like 6-14, storm has 1.5 radius, why do you put 30 workers in one mineral line? at least tell 6 to long distance mine. Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 13:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:
That's 2 stalkers or half a sentry worth of gas down the tubes. Can you really hold it with that much gas pumped into a reaper? it's only 1 stalker worth of gas, 75 minerals cheaper and half the supply.
Holy crap, I thought stalkers were 150/25 for the longest time lol.
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Wholeheartedly agree with KCDC:
1. Losing workers to HT is solved by watching your minimap
2. Dropping zealots on workers is like dropping sheep herders on sheep
3. PvT: how many stalker shots does it take to kill an scv? 5. How many stalkers can you put in prism? 4. That's why these "godly" warp prism drops aren't as godly as you think. The risk/reward of losing WP or your costly units is so imbalanced compared to the level of risk/reward for Terran units in dropships.
EDIT: Yeah, hyperbole on the losing 30 workers thing... The truth is you lost probably six, and their loss reminded you to mule calldown. Who won there?
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If zerg had the reaper I would make it every game
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EPT
