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On October 21 2011 06:36 27Odawg wrote:
I find it interesting that the protoss and zerg seem to desperately want a reaper (or reaper type unit) while the terrans all pretty much are saying why would you want an almost useless unit. I do agree that Protoss would benefit from some sort of fast early game harass unit for more options... except in a way Toss already has in Stalkers. Only problem is that they are relatively expensive and cannot cliff walk compared to the reaper. I don't want this to be taken incorrectly but the races are supposed to be unique and different. Having a reaperish unit at the same tech time (about) to both Zerg and Protoss merely because Terran has one seems to head toward an every race must be very similar. In fact the new Toss unit seems to me to be a Banshee type harass unit that only attacks ground (just my prediction)... I do agree that perhaps some more options should be opened up for Zerg and Protoss in some way to allow for more strategies. But to try to fine-tune balance the game, just by giving races units because other races have these types of units... I dunno just seems like a cop-out on Blizz's part and make SC2 not the great RTS it is and can be.
It's not that everyone wants to have a reaper, but like you stated, a reaper like unit or lets put it in a more general consensus: Some kind of speedy harassment unit which doesn't require you to commit fully to some kind of expensive tech (such as early dark shrine). If terrans go for a banshee, a reaper, a hellion or even fast dropship of some sort, they don't need to get any additional tech they wouldn't use right after for their normal army composition (like getting a single prism while adding robo bay for harass is no additional expense, but going for fast stargate just to get 1-2 voids is).
Every race should have different units and that's also how blizzard is approaching the game (fortunately, otherwise starcraft wouldn't be as awsome as it is). However, being able to have simply more options in the game (just think about how many ways terrans have to open the game without going onebase allin), if it's openings, harassment or general playstyle (unit composition) etc is just good for the game. The protoss race as it stands right now is lacking in some kind of raid unit (like blizzard admits as well) and this would make all protoss matchups way more interesting.
Be honest, do you think it's better for protoss to get another colossus-like unit or rather some of harassment unit? I think many people in this thread take "reaper for protoss" word-by-word, which the OP didn't intend at all. He clearly states that he is just talking about a unit of that style and its influences it would make for playing protoss for the better. I hope other people will start seeing that.
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I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
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Dude phoenix is good enough as a harass unit!
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2011 07:38 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 06:36 27Odawg wrote:
I find it interesting that the protoss and zerg seem to desperately want a reaper (or reaper type unit) while the terrans all pretty much are saying why would you want an almost useless unit. I do agree that Protoss would benefit from some sort of fast early game harass unit for more options... except in a way Toss already has in Stalkers. Only problem is that they are relatively expensive and cannot cliff walk compared to the reaper. I don't want this to be taken incorrectly but the races are supposed to be unique and different. Having a reaperish unit at the same tech time (about) to both Zerg and Protoss merely because Terran has one seems to head toward an every race must be very similar. In fact the new Toss unit seems to me to be a Banshee type harass unit that only attacks ground (just my prediction)... I do agree that perhaps some more options should be opened up for Zerg and Protoss in some way to allow for more strategies. But to try to fine-tune balance the game, just by giving races units because other races have these types of units... I dunno just seems like a cop-out on Blizz's part and make SC2 not the great RTS it is and can be. It's not that everyone wants to have a reaper, but like you stated, a reaper like unit or lets put it in a more general consensus: Some kind of speedy harassment unit which doesn't require you to commit fully to some kind of expensive tech (such as early dark shrine). If terrans go for a banshee, a reaper, a hellion or even fast dropship of some sort, they don't need to get any additional tech they wouldn't use right after for their normal army composition (like getting a single prism while adding robo bay for harass is no additional expense, but going for fast stargate just to get 1-2 voids is). Every race should have different units and that's also how blizzard is approaching the game (fortunately, otherwise starcraft wouldn't be as awsome as it is). However, being able to have simply more options in the game (just think about how many ways terrans have to open the game without going onebase allin), if it's openings, harassment or general playstyle (unit composition) etc is just good for the game. The protoss race as it stands right now is lacking in some kind of raid unit (like blizzard admits as well) and this would make all protoss matchups way more interesting. Be honest, do you think it's better for protoss to get another colossus-like unit or rather some of harassment unit? I think many people in this thread take "reaper for protoss" word-by-word, which the OP didn't intend at all. He clearly states that he is just talking about a unit of that style and its influences it would make for playing protoss for the better. I hope other people will start seeing that.
I mostly agree with you and the OP about Protoss getting a harass type unit that is not the reaper. I will take issue with your comment about how it's so simple for a Terran to get a reaper, hellion or even fast dropship for harass. Sure without a doubt the Terran's tech tree is more streamlined than the other races, but if you spend the time to get reapers or hellions or a fast dropship the Terran will be weak to most kinds of pressure. I've tried to get hellions for harass against Toss in the early and mid game (just a lowly Plat) and it doesn't work if the Toss is competent (due to Stalkers being prevelant and massive micro requirements to kill zealots if you have say 2-4 hellions). The only time I think I ever saw truly effective early to mid game hellions was Byun vs a P in game 1 of GSL code A I think it was and that was with marines and dropships for support (may have been some marauders or tanks but I don't remember). Basically any Terran who is going for Hellions or Reapers or a fast dropship for harass can and (I think) should be punished. If he goes fast dropship most likely that's all his army in there, you can go kill him and hope to hold it with warp-ins or defend it then expand or push as you're way ahead. Same with Hellions. I have a feeling some may disagree with this assessment though.
I hope that Protoss does get some sort of unit that helps them in terms of map control and moves them away from get 2-3 base turtle till large army deathball move... expand again, rebuild to large army deathball move rinse repeat. It would be cool if they did get another unit that allowed them to be a bit more free around the map. But too much would be a problem as with the overall strength of a protoss army compared to other units, throw in the harass units with that and how does T or Z handle this. T splits the P army because Terrans don't want to engage army to army unless up on food count, upgrades or has great positioning. What happens if a Protoss can split the Terran army and then force an engageent against the main T army? (We're all theorycrafting here so here's some of my attempts at it).
I do want to ask how much of a problem throwing down a Stargate and making 1 or 2 phoenixes for looking for expos or patrolling for drops would be. Is that going to hurt a Toss so much economically that it's not worth it? I know it's another advanced building but Phoenix build fast and are kinda cheap for Toss right? I honestly don't know just asking. And another question if given some sort of unit to help early scouting (a reaper type unit) would you be willing to see a price increase on the observer?
Again on topic, I agree that Toss seems to need some sort of fleshing out and a raid or harass unit may help this. I fell it just can't be because "Terran has reaper for harass/scouting, Zerg has speedlings for counterattacks, Toss needs to have something at this timing because they're being left out of having this early game" Just my opinion. Zerg (and even Terran) aren't saying they want some sort of space controlling (forcefields) caster, Sentry, because Toss has one. My favorite part of this game is the differences in the races and the strategies and playstyles that creates. To make them more homogeneous and similar would just take that away. So in short I'm agreeing with you just with hesitancy and caution. Why can't we all be friends 
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On October 21 2011 07:54 castled wrote:
I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
it looks bad for terran because they have better things to use, you have no idea how desperate protoss are for some sort of harras unit that is not gimmick or all inish or just bad.
phoenix lol, just compare the damage 4 phoenix can do to a mineral line to something like 4 banelings or 4 hydras or 4 hellions or 4 banshees.
blink stalkers... do you knew that 2 probes can kill workers faster than a stalker?? it takes 7,2 seconds for a stalker to kill a single scv... makes me think that when your mineral line is being attacked by stalkers, maybe you should grab like 5 scv and activate auto repair to deny the damage....
protoss is so desperate for a decent harrass unit T_T
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United States7483 Posts
On October 21 2011 08:03 canSore wrote:
Dude phoenix is good enough as a harass unit!
No, no it isn't. It's so gimmicky, expensive, and doesn't do enough damage. The energy requirement to hurt ground units and inability to do damage to buildings hurts them too much.
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If you honestly think Protoss would use them to harass mid-game where Terrans are not, I do not know what to say. You say 'Warp Prisms are shut down by vikings'... Reapers are shut down a hell of a lot easier than that...
The entire premise of this thread is idiotic to me... Next you'll be asking what if Zerg had Ravens or something. I really do not see how giving Reapers to Protoss would not result in much more than abusive 1 base all ins and blink stalker shenanigans
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On October 21 2011 08:45 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 08:03 canSore wrote:
Dude phoenix is good enough as a harass unit! No, no it isn't. It's so gimmicky, expensive, and doesn't do enough damage. The energy requirement to hurt ground units and inability to do damage to buildings hurts them too much.
Don't forget that it only lasts about 7-10 seconds then they gotta go home and get more energy and pray you don't put up a single turret in a time span of about 1:15 game minutes.
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On October 21 2011 08:48 Huggerz wrote:
If you honestly think Protoss would use them to harass mid-game where Terrans are not, I do not know what to say. You say 'Warp Prisms are shut down by vikings'... Reapers are shut down a hell of a lot easier than that...
The entire premise of this thread is idiotic to me... Next you'll be asking what if Zerg had Ravens or something. I really do not see how giving Reapers to Protoss would not result in much more than abusive 1 base all ins and blink stalker shenanigans
protoss are droping sentries in mineral lines... you have no idea what protoss would do with reapers...
why would terran use reapers when they can drop marines
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On October 21 2011 07:54 castled wrote:
I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
You're not really in the right vein of thought when you talk about taking up barracks building time. We're saying a unit like that would be better in the hands of other races because yes, Terrans have better options than reapers (I wish that were my problem as Protoss).
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On October 21 2011 08:48 Huggerz wrote:
If you honestly think Protoss would use them to harass mid-game where Terrans are not, I do not know what to say. You say 'Warp Prisms are shut down by vikings'... Reapers are shut down a hell of a lot easier than that...
The entire premise of this thread is idiotic to me... Next you'll be asking what if Zerg had Ravens or something. I really do not see how giving Reapers to Protoss would not result in much more than abusive 1 base all ins and blink stalker shenanigans
I definitely would, you need to think straight. My harassment options involve heavy teching, Terran doesn't have that problem. Give me a reaper-like unit and I will use it a hell of a lot more than Terrans do, and to be clear, Terrans aren't making reapers because they're a bad unit; they're not making them because they have several better options.
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Why is this thread allowed when there are threads closed each day that are extemely similiar?
How is this helping strategic thinking about what if we had a mobile cliff jumper scout?
Where should we go to next?
What if Protoss had faster detection?
What if Protoss stalkers didn't have overkill?
What if Immortals could be warped in from warpgates? What are the ramifications of being able to have a stronger immortal backbone instead of a stalker force?
How is any of this useful? Protoss don't have reapers. Thinking about getting cliff jumpers is about as useful as thinking "What if Protoss got marines?" Maybe they'll get them, but we don't know. Only Blizzard does.
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Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now.
Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of.
He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know.
DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time (like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it!
So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me.
I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball.
But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses.
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Protoss harass options are really good, you don't have to be Liquid`Hero to use a warp prism, but even just putting proxy pylons around the map and warping in 4 zealots and rallying them to your opponent's mineral line and that's pretty effective harass that anybody can do
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On October 21 2011 07:54 castled wrote:
I don't think the Protoss and Zergs who want reapers understand the true cost of the unit: it ties up your barracks for a long time and you end up with weak unit when it comes to actual combat. The marines/marauders you would have built instead of the reaper in that time will often make the difference in holding off early aggression. Plus the gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech.
I just wanted to note this for Ps and Zs saying they would build reapers every game if they had them.
The gas cost of reapers early game severely delays any tech huh? How about the gas cost of sentries, which protosses are forced to make pretty much every game?
I would definitely use the reaper if it was protoss unit, because toss is missing something cheap that can harass and scout. But if I played terran, I would hardly ever want to make one, because they have so many other strong options already.
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I'm sure its been mentioned already, but a reaper would really allow the P meta game to expand further in PvZ and primarily in PvT. How much easier would it be to stop a 1-1-1 if you knew not only that it was coming, but which of the many variants it would be? How much easier would it be to do a timing vs zerg, when you can discover whether or not you'll be able to safely move out.
Really the big advantage it would provide is the early game scouting. As is, P scouting is good in the mid game...after all early game choices leading up to the mid game have been decided. A unit with early scouting abilites like the reaper would allow P to be much more reactionary.
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One of the big reasons why terrans don't use reapers is bc of there super long build time, I see protoss with a unit like a reaper being able to do these riducolous counter push's with them. Just after an even exchange warp in 6 reapers and they could be across the map super fast.... It would be crazy hard to deal with IMO.
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On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses.
everyone who tried at least once, knows that multipronged drops are very, very easy to do, it is easy to do with terran, with zerg and with protoss, it just looks cool and all, looks like you are outplaying your opponent hard, defending the drop is much harder than doing it, and if you play protoss it is even harder.
I hope someday people start to apreciate more the guy that is defending drops than the guy that is doing then.
Anyway, the warp prism is now, i think, the BEST dropship in the game, BUT, what are you going to drop as protoss?
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On October 21 2011 10:17 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses. everyone who tried at least once, knows that multipronged drops are very, very easy to do, it is easy to do with terran, with zerg and with protoss, it just looks cool and all, looks like you are outplaying your opponent hard, defending the drop is much harder than doing it, and if you play protoss it is even harder. I hope someday people start to apreciate more the guy that is defending drops than the guy that is doing then. Anyway, the warp prism is now, i think, the BEST dropship in the game, BUT, what are you going to drop as protoss?
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not
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On October 21 2011 10:17 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses. everyone who tried at least once, knows that multipronged drops are very, very easy to do, it is easy to do with terran, with zerg and with protoss, it just looks cool and all, looks like you are outplaying your opponent hard, defending the drop is much harder than doing it, and if you play protoss it is even harder. I hope someday people start to apreciate more the guy that is defending drops than the guy that is doing then. Anyway, the warp prism is now, i think, the BEST dropship in the game, BUT, what are you going to drop as protoss?
umm.. the problem is warp prism without speed is honestly pretty shitty. If you're lucky, you might be able to get around ~6 worker kills with a 3 sentry 1 zealot drop early on, but after that your opponent will be prepared.
More importantly, collosus range is required and will always be researched first - further delaying any potential of midgame warp prism play.
Even if all this went according to plan, lets just say you drop 4 zealots per drop. If the opponent reacts fast enough (zealots are slowww), your opponent suffers minimum losses. It's rather sad that 8 marines, worth 400 minerals can go postal on workers and potentially snipe a Nexus, while multiple zealots will do dick all usually.
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