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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote: well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :D So why don't we see 5rax reaper in tvt? | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it. So really dont overestimate their usefulness especially for battles and harassment. Getting an early tech lab, the high gas cost and build time make reapers an investment like most forms of early scouting and limit your options quite a bit. Just building them out of gateways and being able to warp them in anywhere and the general lack of harass units would make them actually better for protoss than for terran I guess. But then again you need the gas as Protoss and I dont see too many pros getting hallucinate early which is pretty similar I would say as early scouting is generally the only reason we see reapers at all. | ||
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Krayze
United States213 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote: The only people who think units like reapers and ravens are good are people that dont play terran. Not that they are useless but which Protoss or Zerg unit would you replace with reapers? And dont say Carriers , terran has BCs so deal with it. So really dont overestimate their usefulness especially for battles and harassment. Getting an early tech lab, the high gas cost and build time make reapers an investment like most forms of early scouting and limit your options quite a bit. Just building them out of gateways and being able to warp them in anywhere and the general lack of harass units would make them actually better for protoss than for terran I guess. But then again you need the gas as Protoss and I dont see too many pros getting hallucinate early which is pretty similar I would say as early scouting is generally the only reason we see reapers at all. Going reaper heavy in early game is a good way to do double expands or quick pressure expands. Problem is you will die immediately when Robo units arrive. You'll have like 6 barracks for marauders and marines and maybe ghosts but no medivacs, tanks, or upgrades. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:19 secretary bird wrote: The only people who think units like reapers and ravens are good are people that dont play terran. Terrans build units fundamentally different from zerg and protoss. F.e mutalisks would be worse in the hands of a terran or protoss, because you can't mass them as easy as zerg. Zerglings coming out of barracks instead of marines??? Excuse me but that would be so UP... The flipside is that terran units such as reapers coming out of hatcheries and warpgates in their current state might just be too strong, due to the easy ways to mass them, and less included costs (harder to upgrade units for terran, tech labs, build time). | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote: well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Reaper are balanced with the idea they take a shitlot tons of time to build. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote: Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Or it would be like TvT where terrans leave a siege tank and a few marines near the mineral line to prevent drops. Or like BW PvT where terrans had to make turrets and a couple of siege tanks at each base to prevent damage from shuttle/reaver drops. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Thoughts? | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote: Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways. It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup. Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective. By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought. | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:43 tehemperorer wrote: I envision something like the reaper, I call it the Shakuran Adept: It's a Protoss unit that is mobile and can harass but comes early enough in the tech tree to be useful. It can cliffwalk, is produced from cyber core ( no warp in), can mind control a single bio unit/non massive at range 7 (marine, marauder, ghost, most zerg, zealot, templar, and other Adept), requires mana to channel the spell, has no attack, hit points are 40/40, passively cloaks when channeling, and costs 100/50. Thoughts? Passive cloak a bit much considering you could get it before any detection was even possible. I like the idea kind of, of a reaperish unit that had no normal attack, but then it just seems like a worse version of an observer that you can get earlier. btw, if it did passive cloak wouldn't the observer be completely obsolete? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:35 Noocta wrote: To be fair, reaper in warp in would be pretty silly. Reaper are balanced with the idea they take a shitlot tons of time to build. People sometimes forget that warp-ins don't build stuff faster than barracks. The unit just comes out near the beginning of the build cycle rather than at the end. You'd still need a ton of gates to make a significant number of reapers just like you currently need a lot of barracks to do so. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:51 Atreides wrote: Passive cloak a bit much considering you could get it before any detection was even possible. I like the idea kind of, of a reaperish unit that had no normal attack, but then it just seems like a worse version of an observer that you can get earlier. btw, if it did passive cloak wouldn't the observer be completely obsolete? Hmmm good point... Let's see, it is a passive cloak only when channeling, and that is limited by energy... 25 energy to cast the mind control plus .6 a second for channeling, so the unit is either early but doesn't last long or it's late and lasts longer. For scouting yeah it's good but has to cast mind control at range 7 meaning range 6 units have a chance to kill him, also adept can't move when channeling so if Terran sees where he is when he cloaks, he will keep units there to kill him. Observer flies, requires scan to kill cause is perma cloak, but Adept is easily killable, I dunno, has to be explored. In PvP would be a good scout unit, might delay warpgate tech to get him then start WG, only requires observer to kill when mind controlling, I dunno EDIT: Seems shitty actually, like a unit that gets used once then dies, maybe change to range 9? | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote: I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable. Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote: Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac? Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective. By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought. Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:57 kcdc wrote: Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho. He does it just to negate econ edge by forcing lings right? | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote: Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways. It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup. Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here. This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference. I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass. | ||
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