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[D] If Protoss had the reaper - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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darklight54321
Profile Joined July 2011
United States361 Posts
October 20 2011 19:08 GMT
#41
On October 21 2011 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:57 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote:
Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?

Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.

By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought.


Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho.

He does it just to negate econ edge by forcing lings right?



yeah, not a bad idea but doesn't do much cause you sacrifice chrono on the gateway instead of nexus so it only gives a 1-2 probe advantage then you'd get off a slightly later pressure.
secretary bird
Profile Joined September 2011
447 Posts
October 20 2011 19:08 GMT
#42
On October 21 2011 03:54 kcdc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:35 Noocta wrote:
To be fair, reaper in warp in would be pretty silly.
Reaper are balanced with the idea they take a shitlot tons of time to build.


People sometimes forget that warp-ins don't build stuff faster than barracks. The unit just comes out near the beginning of the build cycle rather than at the end. You'd still need a ton of gates to make a significant number of reapers just like you currently need a lot of barracks to do so.


Getting a ton of tech lab barracks is much more difficult and limits your options, you have to add the scv mining time and build time and cost of the add-ons too.

Getting 5+ gateways is not really comparable imo.


kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
October 20 2011 19:09 GMT
#43
On October 21 2011 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:57 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:51 Danglars wrote:
Are these the sluggish reapers reapers until you complete 100/100 research at the cybercore, or would that research be in the robo fac?

Good discussion about the mobility, let it continue. Get the other races thinking about mobility and scouting from a different perspective.

By the way, from what I see out of Liquid'Hero, late-gas zerg openings can still be abused by stalkers off of 1gate expand (Heavy chrono on gate) or 2gate expand. Food for thought.


Yeah, you can force a handful of lings and make him micro his queens until speed is about 30 sec from done. You're lucky to kill more than a ling or 2 tho.

He does it just to negate econ edge by forcing lings right?


That's why I do it. I assume that's why everyone else does it. It's worth doing, but I think a couple reapers would be better than a couple stalkers.
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-20 19:10:50
October 20 2011 19:10 GMT
#44
On October 21 2011 04:06 kcdc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody


Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map.


Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways.

It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup.

Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here.


This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference.

I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass.


I guess basically what I am saying is that Protoss is less dependent on early map presence then Terran (at least currently) so yes it is considered standard for them to sit in their base defending a fe while they chrono boost probes and gain an economic advantage. But Terran has this sort of build to with a gasless expand, so maybe that would become even more standard. I think it would kill concussive expands and stuff like that though.
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
October 20 2011 19:10 GMT
#45
On October 21 2011 03:57 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.

Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are


Observers work of course, but they require blindly committing to a tech path, and the scout will be relatively late. Zealot Stalker poke won't tell you much except that your opponent, like most Terrans, built a bunker at his ramp. It isn't enough to break a bunker, he's not even forced to reveal his units: at absolute best you force 2 SCVs to be pulled, but you'll still have no scouting information except what he chose to show you.
I am the Town Medic.
Welmu
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Finland3295 Posts
October 20 2011 19:12 GMT
#46
upgrade for zealot from cyber to be able to get rocketshoes? yes plz^^
Progamertwitter.com/welmu1 | twitch.com/Welmu1
secretary bird
Profile Joined September 2011
447 Posts
October 20 2011 19:12 GMT
#47
On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.


You would do it once and die to an allin anyway, not a good idea to overinvest in scouting.

Also getting a reaper doesnt mean full information of what his plan is at all.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
October 20 2011 19:14 GMT
#48
On October 21 2011 04:10 Atreides wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 04:06 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody


Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map.


Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways.

It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup.

Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here.


This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference.

I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass.


I guess basically what I am saying is that Protoss is less dependent on early map presence then Terran (at least currently) so yes it is considered standard for them to sit in their base defending a fe while they chrono boost probes and gain an economic advantage. But Terran has this sort of build to with a gasless expand, so maybe that would become even more standard. I think it would kill concussive expands and stuff like that though.


That's something to think about tho. Currently, if T goes 1-rax expand and P goes 1-gate expand, T can attack without consequence. Would it be so bad if P had a way to pressure back in the same situation?
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-20 19:15:34
October 20 2011 19:15 GMT
#49
On October 21 2011 04:10 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:57 tehemperorer wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.

Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are


Observers work of course, but they require blindly committing to a tech path, and the scout will be relatively late. Zealot Stalker poke won't tell you much except that your opponent, like most Terrans, built a bunker at his ramp. It isn't enough to break a bunker, he's not even forced to reveal his units: at absolute best you force 2 SCVs to be pulled, but you'll still have no scouting information except what he chose to show you.

zeal stalker tells you pretty muhc everything, just look for marauder shots and count them. If they come you should expand and get 2 more gates, if they don't, you expand and get robo and watch their expansion. If CC floats it was 2rax expand, and you should now try to match econ, if no cc for a while it is 1/1/1 so prepare, but should have obs by then. Pretty standard
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Thebbeuttiffulland
Profile Joined October 2011
Brazil288 Posts
October 20 2011 19:18 GMT
#50
On October 21 2011 03:18 Resistentialism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :D



So why don't we see 5rax reaper in tvt?

because in TvT you can just defend with bio tank and be fine in TvP u cant just defend vs protoss untill 200 and be fine in TvP u must be aggressive
truth is out there
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
October 20 2011 19:23 GMT
#51
On October 21 2011 04:15 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 04:10 Alzadar wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:57 tehemperorer wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:56 Alzadar wrote:
I would pay 200/200 to be able to build a reaper. The ability to scout is invaluable.

Usually early obs or even just a 1z 1s poke against Terran is pretty clear what their intentions are


Observers work of course, but they require blindly committing to a tech path, and the scout will be relatively late. Zealot Stalker poke won't tell you much except that your opponent, like most Terrans, built a bunker at his ramp. It isn't enough to break a bunker, he's not even forced to reveal his units: at absolute best you force 2 SCVs to be pulled, but you'll still have no scouting information except what he chose to show you.

zeal stalker tells you pretty muhc everything, just look for marauder shots and count them. If they come you should expand and get 2 more gates, if they don't, you expand and get robo and watch their expansion. If CC floats it was 2rax expand, and you should now try to match econ, if no cc for a while it is 1/1/1 so prepare, but should have obs by then. Pretty standard


Who leaves their marauders up front just to get scouted by small pokes when they have a bunker and marines?
Quotidian
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1937 Posts
October 20 2011 19:23 GMT
#52
If we're going to base a discussion on ifs, I'd say the game would be much better off if no race had reaper like units. Blizzard have pretty much admitted to the unit being a failure in terms of what it was originally intended as. I think the game would be much, much better off if no unit except straight up air units were allowed to circumvent cliffs and defenses. No blinking up cliffs, no low ground to high ground warp ins, no reapers, and the cliff walking siege tank that is the colossus is a failure of a unit on a whole bunch of levels in addition to it walking up cliffs.

The geometry of a map should matter waaaay more than it does in SC2.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-20 19:28:15
October 20 2011 19:25 GMT
#53
On October 21 2011 04:18 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 03:18 Resistentialism wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :D



So why don't we see 5rax reaper in tvt?

because in TvT you can just defend with bio tank and be fine in TvP u cant just defend vs protoss untill 200 and be fine in TvP u must be aggressive


People still aren't getting what it means to have to defend your base, so let's try it this way:

Q: How does T deal with the threat of a warp prism?
A: They mostly ignore it. It's weak enough that T usually doesn't prepare in advance, and if P is persistent with warp prism harass, T will keep a few marines at home until he can patrol a viking to shut it down completely.

Q: How would T deal with the threat of reapers in PvT?
A: They'd either ignore it or keep a marauder at home.

This isn't game-breaking stuff. T makes missile turrets against Z. They leave marines and even tanks at home in TvT. Only against P, which has relatively little harassment potential, does T feel so little threat of harass that they don't preemptively defend their base. And the weird part is that they seem to think that they shouldn't have to.
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-20 19:27:34
October 20 2011 19:26 GMT
#54
On October 21 2011 04:14 kcdc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 04:10 Atreides wrote:
On October 21 2011 04:06 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:47 Atreides wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:
On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody


Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map.


Yeah just no. Protoss does not have to leave defense in base to defend reapers. As the original comment indicated one stalker warpin easily deals with a reaper. Whereas with Terran if you are out on the map you are in serious trouble if one reaper shows up. This would give a ridiculously safe 1gate expo as the fact that literally EVERY game you would have to leave units in main to defend against a reaper and there is nothing you can do about it. In TvT you can scout a techlab opening and assumer reaper and prepare, or vice versa its not allways on the table. Allowing it off just the core would mean it was available allways.

It is quite an overstatement to say it would only serve scouting. You could not do any sort of a poke at all early game as Terran and I am pretty sure this in and of itself would imbalance the matchup.

Edit: To the other posts about in base defense, thats all fine and dandy we are talking about the very early game here.


This is exceptionally silly. Sure, Protoss can use a stalker to defend his base against reapers. Terran can use a marauder to defend his base against reapers. You mention warping in a stalker, but Protoss doesn't have warpgate that early. And even if they did, Terran can spawn units at their mineral line just as easily as Protoss can. Warpgate doesn't make a bit of difference.

I guess the implicit assumption you're making here is that Terran shouldn't have to worry about reaper backstabs while Protoss should. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get at with this discussion. The game would be very different if Protoss had a way to harass.


I guess basically what I am saying is that Protoss is less dependent on early map presence then Terran (at least currently) so yes it is considered standard for them to sit in their base defending a fe while they chrono boost probes and gain an economic advantage. But Terran has this sort of build to with a gasless expand, so maybe that would become even more standard. I think it would kill concussive expands and stuff like that though.


That's something to think about tho. Currently, if T goes 1-rax expand and P goes 1-gate expand, T can attack without consequence. Would it be so bad if P had a way to pressure back in the same situation?


I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand. So its not terrible imba that it has to be the defensive one. If T goes the economic route (gasless) then they can't really pressure either. Maybe its a factor of how good sentries are early at holding a ramp allowing you to cut corners on defense and send out your "reaper". The terran equivalent, the bunker, is substantially more of an investment then sentries you would get anyway.

To make this all clear I have no problem with P gaining some early game scouting. Its needed. There is a lot of "poke front and make wild guess" that goes on. T early game scouting costs them (scan/reaper) but if they want it bad enough they can get it. However, I don't think they need very early game agressive potential, because their early-midgame (or w/e you define the myriad 4-6g timings and other all-ins) agressive potential is so strong allready.
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
October 20 2011 19:26 GMT
#55
On October 21 2011 04:23 Quotidian wrote:
If we're going to base a discussion on ifs, I'd say the game would be much better off if no race had reaper like units. Blizzard have pretty much admitted to the unit being a failure in terms of what it was originally intended as. I think the game would be much, much better off if no unit except straight up air units were allowed to circumvent cliffs and defenses. No blinking up cliffs, no low ground to high ground warp ins, no reapers, and the cliff walking siege tank that is the colossus is a failure of a unit on a whole bunch of levels in addition to it walking up cliffs.

The geometry of a map should matter waaaay more than it does in SC2.


I kind of agree with this, but if you are going to make these kinds of changes you really need to tone down air-to-ground efficiency at the same time. Culprits: banshees, void rays, brood lords.
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
October 20 2011 19:31 GMT
#56
And then, well, if banshees, void rays and brood lords are less of a threat, you probably need to change the marine.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
October 20 2011 19:31 GMT
#57
On October 21 2011 04:26 Atreides wrote:
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand.


Negative. Concussive expand gets more income than 1 gate FE because of MULEs. Protoss will have more workers, but less income. P has to find an edge elsewhere to win.
MiKTeX
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
October 20 2011 19:32 GMT
#58
the reaper would break pvp, but you could just make it so that you cannot warp uphill: only downhill (and on level ground, ofc)
Quotidian
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1937 Posts
October 20 2011 19:40 GMT
#59
On October 21 2011 04:26 Resistentialism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 04:23 Quotidian wrote:
If we're going to base a discussion on ifs, I'd say the game would be much better off if no race had reaper like units. Blizzard have pretty much admitted to the unit being a failure in terms of what it was originally intended as. I think the game would be much, much better off if no unit except straight up air units were allowed to circumvent cliffs and defenses. No blinking up cliffs, no low ground to high ground warp ins, no reapers, and the cliff walking siege tank that is the colossus is a failure of a unit on a whole bunch of levels in addition to it walking up cliffs.

The geometry of a map should matter waaaay more than it does in SC2.


I kind of agree with this, but if you are going to make these kinds of changes you really need to tone down air-to-ground efficiency at the same time. Culprits: banshees, void rays, brood lords.



I don't see how you came to that conclusion, since the only unit in the game that can circumvent cliffs and shoot air is the stalker - and the stalker would still be able to do it's anti air job really well even if it couldn't blink up cliffs. Maybe some races need better anti air, but I don't think air to ground needs much changing at all.
secretary bird
Profile Joined September 2011
447 Posts
October 20 2011 19:41 GMT
#60
On October 21 2011 04:31 kcdc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 04:26 Atreides wrote:
I do not know off the top of my head the exact relative timings and stuff, but I am pretty sure that a standard one gate fe is more economic than a concussive expand.


Negative. Concussive expand gets more income than 1 gate FE because of MULEs. Protoss will have more workers, but less income. P has to find an edge elsewhere to win.


Any proof for that? So it doesnt matter how much chrono you spend on probes or at what timing you compare the income,the existance of MULEs always means the terran has more income?
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