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On October 21 2011 09:19 avilo wrote:Protoss can already harrass good - it's just that they don't. Warp prisms are incredible right now. Watch liquid hero, he's one of the few sane protoss that realizes the warp prism is essentially a 200 mineral arbiter, and utilizes storm drops like brood war, and brace yourself - uses them to micro collosus in and out of. He plays Protoss like brood war style, aka very good with great multi-task. He even...get this...builds more than 2 observers. Crazy i know. DTs are great for harrass, blink stalker, phoenix...but warp prism is the best imo...just protoss players have not developed that play yet because most of them are lazy and happy with a 1A deathball. Spending the time and energy to make 2 warp prisms and micro them in two different locations at the same time ( like a terran player does with drops) is just too hard apparently - yet every brood war player did it! So yeah...not buying the Protoss does not have enough harrass options/units. I'll buy into the idea "Protoss players have not developed harrass play much" cause that sounds more accurate to me. I bet anyone that if there were a top tier protoss like bisu that switched over to SC2, you'd see the massive difference in multi-task between a SC1 protoss progamer and the typical SC2 protoss progamer that just makes a 1A deathball. But lately Protosses have started to wise up and get with the program and are developing warp prism play right now. Looks like white-ra is not the only one anymore that realizes he has a 200 mineral arbiter/potential speed shuttle at robo tech that has many uses. 
Warp prisms are definitely decent. I use them a lot, but there are limitations. First, the units you wind up dropping are usually zealots which make workers run away but don't kill them. So it's not nearly as damaging as a Terran drop. Second, they clog your robo queue which is a vital resource. Third, there's limited windows where they're effective. Against Terran, you want to expand (and have Terran expand) before you start doing drop harass which slows things down, and then you're really only effective until vikings come out. In the late game, you can fly around a couple speed prisms hoping not to get caught by vikings, but Terran wants to have a half dozen vikings anyway. It's not like forcing him to make vikings plays into your hand.
Against Zerg, prisms are better. Zerg doesn't have much AA, so they don't have a good way to shut down warp prism harass until spire.
In both cases tho, warp prisms are late and don't do much damage. Protoss would love to have something earlier and more effective.
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Well zerg is in the same boat tbh as zerg can't even deal with getting around wall-offs like you toss boyz. Reaper harass doesn't really do damage just like zealot harass. Instead it forces people back to their base and forces static defense.
I think you're looking at it with rose tinted spectacles really.
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Reapers would be pretty good in pvp to snipe enemy pylons.
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Canada13400 Posts
On October 21 2011 10:52 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Well zerg is in the same boat tbh as zerg can't even deal with getting around wall-offs like you toss boyz. Reaper harass doesn't really do damage just like zealot harass. Instead it forces people back to their base and forces static defense.
I think you're looking at it with rose tinted spectacles really.
But lets look at the game in its entirety.
Zerg can get an FE up very safely relative to protoss. It doesnt matter so much what the opening is from Terran. Zerg gets an FE, they then build spine crawlers, queens and zerglings - sometimes roaches. The Benefit to Zerg is that as long as you see something coming you can just build it right away.
The threat of mutalisks requires Terran to invest into static defence such as turrets and they must leave something behind.
Zealots are melee. Whereas reapers are ranged. Reapers once in a base can chase workers more effectively than zealots can.
Warp prisms dont really force much static defense and very few units really need to be left behind to deal with it. A single viking or two can be left around for defense whereas the same cannot be said for a large number of mutalisks.
The vikings are also normally made in TvP so its not much of a stretch to go and get them.
I'm not saying everything is rosy for zerg but you cannot just say that reapers arent a big deal because P has prisms and can already get past wall offs and Zerg can't. This simply isn't true. Having reapers as protoss or a similar unit would allow for scouting and effective early harass.
Imagine the following: Protoss does a 1 gate FE. They make a zealot, a stalker then the speedy harass unit (reaper). Terran does a 2 rax into expand. Instead of walking cross map with every single unit Terran has made and rallying, they need to leave a marauder or two marines or some other units back at home to defend against the eventual unit harass. The 2 rax wouldn't be as difficult to hold when doing 1 gate FE as it is now. The Terran wouldn't have a reaper come into the back of the protoss base and kill probes while a zealot and 2 stalkers try to keep a bunker from going up and a handful off MM units from denying the expansion or doing serious damage. The whole ability to get an FE up would be much easier for protoss. This is important because without an expansion holding a late 1-1-1 is more difficult.
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That's 2 stalkers or half a sentry worth of gas down the tubes. Can you really hold it with that much gas pumped into a reaper?
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On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not
Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though).
Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so).
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On October 21 2011 12:04 ZeromuS wrote:
Warp prisms dont really force much static defense and very few units really need to be left behind to deal with it. A single viking or two can be left around for defense whereas the same cannot be said for a large number of mutalisks.
A larger investment requires a larger defence.
Who knew?
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On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so).
2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them
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On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do).
I can just as easily say that a "properly microed" lategame protoss army will beat a MMM+GV army with "proper micro" every time, since the lategame protoss army is so much stronger than the terran army. It's just that no one has micro that is that good, where they never make mistakes. So what's the point of making statements like that in the first place?
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I think you're overestimating reaper harass capabilities. A single reaper typically won't do much damage at all. They're good if your opponent doesn't suspect them, but their build time is really slow, and making more than 1 can be really costly, especially when you don't have bunkers as protoss. I don't really see a build that could afford to make more than 2 and not expect to die to a zerg or maybe a 2 rax. And even if you make 3 or more, you need to catch them off guard for it to work because they're very fragile and a few shots from the high ground will take them out.
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On October 21 2011 18:47 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 18:26 Quotidian wrote:On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). I can just as easily say that a "properly microed" lategame protoss army will beat a MMM+GV army with "proper micro" every time, since the lategame protoss army is so much stronger than the terran army. It's just that no one has micro that is that good, where they never make mistakes. So what's the point of making statements like that in the first place? Not really. If the Terran gets off all their EMPs (EMP outranges feedback, Ghosts can cloak, Ghosts are faster than Templar) and the Vikings aren't floated straight over the Stalkers (Vikings have a massive range, Stalkers don't) then the Protoss loses no matter how good their micro is. No Colossus, no storms, no forcefields and no shields against a stimmed, healed Terran army = GG. The only way Protoss can win (assuming equal upgrades etc.) is if the Terran makes a massive mistake, which means as a Protoss you're always just hoping for the other person to do something wrong... which isn't that much of a problem at a low level where people are prone to making mistakes, but is a massive problem the top-top-level 'cause those guys don't make that many mistakes (see GSL Terran dominance).
I dont think just EMP everything and good viking control means you crush the deathball in fact I know it doesnt and saying you need MASSIVE mistakes by the terran to win is just wrong. How many Code S games have you seen where the Protoss has perfect control with a perfect army like that and just gets owned , it usually doesnt even get to that point.
But even if you're right thats completely off topic.
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On October 21 2011 17:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so). 2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them
storm takes 2 seconds to kill probe/drone and 3 seconds to kill scv (terran imba).
you have to fly the templars till they get in range to storm, and then wait then drop, it is like +3-4s
so you had like 5-7s to react and kill the 2 templars +prism
and I can't see 30 workers being killed, it is more something like 6-14, storm has 1.5 radius, why do you put 30 workers in one mineral line? at least tell 6 to long distance mine.
On October 21 2011 13:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:
That's 2 stalkers or half a sentry worth of gas down the tubes. Can you really hold it with that much gas pumped into a reaper?
it's only 1 stalker worth of gas, 75 minerals cheaper and half the supply.
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On October 21 2011 17:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so). 2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them
The point of this thread was to bring up the problem of lack of fast early-game scout and harass, of the sort offered by the Reaper, for Protoss.
High Templar aren't an early-game harrass unit, nor are they a scouting unit. Not to mention that its a pretty big tech investment to get HT and Storm. And if you want to drop them you need to get a robo and warp prism and wait for energy to build up. And if they're dropping your opponent's mineral lines they're not with the army; where they NEED to be to deal with the Terran bio ball, because you don't have Colossi yet having teched to Templars first instead.
You might as well say "drop Colossi". Not saying it can't be effective. I'm saying its a large tech commitment, large resource commitment and, more to the point, isn't an early-game fast harrass/scout option.
Theres a lot of people saying "use this" or "use that" and then going on about DTs or Phoenixes or Warp Prisms. Have you people even played Protoss? Lets review these three popular comments:
Warp Prisms - they're great. And good for mid to late game two-pronged attacks. But how does that help early game harrass and scouting exactly? What you going to drop for that? Zealots with their melee attack and slow movement? Stalkers which are expensive and aren't that good against workers? Sentries with their massive gas cost and which are desparately needed at your base to hold off the predictable early attacks?
Dark Templars - amazing units if your opponent doesn't realise they're coming but you generally get one shot to use them before your opponent realises and puts detection everywhere. More to the point they take forever to tech to and are expensive.
Phoenixes - pushes you into the Stargate tech. You need a fair few of them to be effective. Cannot shoot ground and require energy to harrass with. Plus can't do anything to buildings and rarely that effective late game because they're very specialised. And you can't really get them out THAT fast.
In order to do any of these three you need to make a tech commitment which, if you end up giving up on because your harrass wasn't working, is a fairly big loss.
To compare: if a terran gets a reaper that costs him 50/50 and 45 seconds build, if that doesn't work out all that has been lost is the 50/50 cost of the reaper because the tech required (barracks and tech lab) you either have to build just to open your tech choices or get built anway for stim. If a Protoss goes for DTs then that costs 150/100 Twilight Council (50 seconds), 100/250 Dark Shrine (100 seconds) and 125/125 DT (45 seconds cooldown on the warpgate). So compare 50/50 and 45 seconds out of barracks time with 250/350 and 150 seconds of tech buildings plus another 125/125 disposable loss on the DT which actually puts the gate in question on cooldown for as long as it takes to build a Reaper (numbers are all from liquipedia); plus it pushes you onto the Templar tech path whereas a reaper is a throwaway tech choice (you can get Marauders and stim instead off the same tech setup). You can do the same comparison for any of the others, Phoenix (requires at least two, to lift and damage) needs 450/350 and 130 seconds (assuming one Stargate) and pushes you onto the Stargate tech. Probably the most stable is Warp Prism harrass because both Robos and Warp Prisms are very versatile; however thats still a 200/0 50 second investment in a Warp Prism (tying up your robo so it can't produce a quick immortal or observer, arguably both more important than a quicker marine) as well as the cost of however many gateway units you want, plus the cooldowns on gateways and for generally less effect than a Terran marine drop and possibly even less effect than just building a few reapers.
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On October 21 2011 03:41 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Or it would be like TvT where terrans leave a siege tank and a few marines near the mineral line to prevent drops. Or like BW PvT where terrans had to make turrets and a couple of siege tanks at each base to prevent damage from shuttle/reaver drops.
except in broodwar tanks were 2 supply not 3 and so was much more viable to leave them to be defensie while u rarmy would not be as weakened u would be sup[rised how big of a difference a few tanks can be in a major engagment.,
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On October 21 2011 20:35 cristo1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 03:41 Piledriver wrote:On October 21 2011 03:32 kcdc wrote:On October 21 2011 03:16 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:
well terran cant warp in units in main so if 5-10 reapers come will terran have to run back to base?...until terran comes there will be no buildings left :Dand you cant let toss to have too much harash units because bio wont be viable terran will have to defend harash and fight only head to head with protoss so all terrans will become goody Haha. It would surely be awful if Terran had to leave some defense in his base against Protoss harass. As Protoss player, I can't imagine what it would be like if I had to worry about defending my bases against Terran back-stabs when my army is out on the map. Or it would be like TvT where terrans leave a siege tank and a few marines near the mineral line to prevent drops. Or like BW PvT where terrans had to make turrets and a couple of siege tanks at each base to prevent damage from shuttle/reaver drops. except in broodwar tanks were 2 supply not 3 and so was much more viable to leave them to be defensie while u rarmy would not be as weakened u would be sup[rised how big of a difference a few tanks can be in a major engagment.,
Leaving one tank and, say, three marines to prevent a drop is 6 supply. Leaving three Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries behind to defend against a drop is also 6 supply. However three Zealots or Stalkers or Sentries are probably not going to be enough to kill off a harrass drop whereas a tank and three marines might well be especially given that you have SCVs to repair the tank literally right by it, mining away.
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On October 21 2011 18:47 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 18:26 Quotidian wrote:On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). I can just as easily say that a "properly microed" lategame protoss army will beat a MMM+GV army with "proper micro" every time, since the lategame protoss army is so much stronger than the terran army. It's just that no one has micro that is that good, where they never make mistakes. So what's the point of making statements like that in the first place? Not really. If the Terran gets off all their EMPs (EMP outranges feedback, Ghosts can cloak, Ghosts are faster than Templar) and the Vikings aren't floated straight over the Stalkers (Vikings have a massive range, Stalkers don't) then the Protoss loses no matter how good their micro is. No Colossus, no storms, no forcefields and no shields against a stimmed, healed Terran army = GG. The only way Protoss can win (assuming equal upgrades etc.) is if the Terran makes a massive mistake, which means as a Protoss you're always just hoping for the other person to do something wrong... which isn't that much of a problem at a low level where people are prone to making mistakes, but is a massive problem the top-top-level 'cause those guys don't make that many mistakes (see GSL Terran dominance).
if protoss spreads properly, snipes vikings with blink stalkers and lands feedbacks (which they will with proper micro because feedback is instant cast and EMP has a travel time) then protoss will win every time. Etc etc ad infinitum
Just stop talking in ifs, non-specifics and generalities, it really serves no purpose. Everything can be counter-argued by just mirroring the original argument and it's always just as valid as what was originally presented as the argument.
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Love the idea!
I do like how reapers affect openings in TvT though. Its sometimes the only thing that forces me to get 2 marines/have marines in base instead of towers right from the start.
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On October 21 2011 20:07 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 17:24 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:On October 21 2011 15:06 althaz wrote:On October 21 2011 10:42 dhe95 wrote:
a few zealots can do a lot of damage. protoss don't need to be killing 30 workers a game to stay even. they need to survive building up a death ball while keeping the other player under control. dropping everywhere will discourage a mass amount of expansions simply because it's so much easier to harass. just look at the many tvzs where a zerg takes a fast 3rd and cracks under the terran's constant drops and harassment
then later on ht or dt drops are deadly. 2 hts can completely destroy a mineral line whether the other player is distracted or not Couldn't be more wrong. Protoss at the moment has no real answer in a direct engagement to MMM+GV (assuming proper micro from the Terran, which admittedly is quite rare and difficult to do). In PvZ Protoss can't fight Infestor-Broodlord directly without being way ahead (it's arguably harder to get this combo going that it is to stop it though). Also, Zealots suck pretty hard as a drop unit. They can't catch workers, can't kill them particularly quickly and can't escape. They are the best thing Protoss has. That's not the same as them being good. IMO Protoss needs a more powerful harass unit, especially vs Terran who are generally stronger early-game as well as late game (but the mid-game quite frequently favours Protoss, because it's hard for Terran to match the Protoss' tech choices and they absolutely need to do so). 2 hts killed my 30 workers in 1 second ;( what about them storm takes 2 seconds to kill probe/drone and 3 seconds to kill scv (terran imba). you have to fly the templars till they get in range to storm, and then wait then drop, it is like +3-4s so you had like 5-7s to react and kill the 2 templars +prism and I can't see 30 workers being killed, it is more something like 6-14, storm has 1.5 radius, why do you put 30 workers in one mineral line? at least tell 6 to long distance mine. Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 13:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:
That's 2 stalkers or half a sentry worth of gas down the tubes. Can you really hold it with that much gas pumped into a reaper? it's only 1 stalker worth of gas, 75 minerals cheaper and half the supply.
Holy crap, I thought stalkers were 150/25 for the longest time lol.
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Wholeheartedly agree with KCDC:
1. Losing workers to HT is solved by watching your minimap
2. Dropping zealots on workers is like dropping sheep herders on sheep
3. PvT: how many stalker shots does it take to kill an scv? 5. How many stalkers can you put in prism? 4. That's why these "godly" warp prism drops aren't as godly as you think. The risk/reward of losing WP or your costly units is so imbalanced compared to the level of risk/reward for Terran units in dropships.
EDIT: Yeah, hyperbole on the losing 30 workers thing... The truth is you lost probably six, and their loss reminded you to mule calldown. Who won there?
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EPT
