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On October 12 2011 08:12 Jagd wrote:
Also you don't mention how this plays out against two very common builds: 14 14 roach expand and 14 14 baneling expand. I imagine this would do very well against the former, but be weaker than the latter. Also have you tested against 10p builds that don't attack until speed (10p 10g->3to gas, 10ov, 12 queen, speed, 3 off gas, lings = 4:30 20 lings, 4:45 speed)?
Against 10pool builds you just have to pull back your lings and play defensive with lings/queen. Your speed will be slightly later than his but you just have to get in as good a first engagement as you can as your defensive advantage will let you secure a superior ling count eventually (but not for the first engagement)
Against the 14/14 Roach expand, you should almost always be able to deny his expansion OR get into the main if he pulls off the ramp to defend his hatchery.
Against the 14/14 Baneling expand, you get a faster expansion and hopefully can keep him contained to one base. I like to pressure with lings, try to pick off his lings/banelings with minimal losses, and slowly add drones to my expo and go for a roach/ling timing attack. It's a dicey situation though, because if he goes into a ling/bane all-in it's hard to hold with only lings so you have to be active with the lings you have at the front and if he's ever getting close to outmassing lings, you need to either get those roaches out asap or spine up.
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This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
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While I think that mass ling is quite viable against ling/bling (though if both players have PERFECT micro I think that ling/bling will win), I watched your "tutorial" window and was frankly unimpressed.
In the video, he runs in with his lings and blings. You decide "counter-attack" and he, for whatever reason, chases you halfway... then leaves his lings in the middle of the map while his banelings do literally nothing and your lings destroy his base. This is really not a good example.
Not that Catz is a bad player, but if he had split his banelings to go around opposite sides of the hatchery he would have gotten plenty of drones. Not to mention the fact that his queen looks to have over 50 energy when your mass of lings hits his base, while half of his lings are sitting in the middle of the map. What if Catz had simply left 1 baneling in the area where his morphed all 3 of his, blocking that way towards his base?
Really, my point is that that game and explanation makes the build look much more powerful than it is. A player going ling/bling has a lot of options and micro tricks. If he had morphed 1 or 2 banelings at home and positioned them at the top of his ramp he would have held your counter with very little effort (you run straight up the ramp, you don't even lead with 1 zergling)
This is more of a "if you're extremely confident in your micro, do this build". It seems like a much better idea to get the bling nest for the "just in case I screw up" moment.
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Ling/Bling will always beat pure ling with comparable micro, I see no pro's for this over ling bling expand.
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United States15536 Posts
On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
Ummm... those are some pretty serious accusations. Whether you like the strat or not, you're going to have to show a little (read: a lot of) evidence before coming into someone's well-constructed thread and giving them shit.
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This is like your 1 base bane build against Terran, nothing new at all....
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On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
No one has ever played on any of my accounts but me. If you'd like to join me on skype, I will talk to you while I play someone high level. It's absolutely not a "concensus", it's a few jealous individuals looking for a reason to be angry. I've been consistently ranked in top global masters and grand masters since beta, and this type of criticism is offensive and blatantly untrue. I'm not claiming I'm spectacular or ready to join GSL, but I have put so much effort into improving my own skills and the skills of others that I find it baffling you'd take the time to spread such ridiculous untruths.
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I didn't learn much from this thread. I've actually done this before many times, and it's bad.
If your opponent ling/bling you won't be able to expand or you lose, provided your opponent isn't worse than you. And if you don't expand, then the build is pointless.
It works against roaches but anyone doing (blind or not) roaches when their opponent is speed ling expanding, is bad - unless you yourself is bad enough not hitting him before he have enough roaches to block the ramp to the natural. And the latter is only doable with hatch first pretty much, and that counters pool->hatch. In others, this build pointless in that scenario too.
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Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad...
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On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad...
Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening.
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On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening.
Well him being skilled certainly doesn't show through his openings... Also a speedling expand straight up loses to a 14 gas 14 pool ling bling, and doesn't beat a 15 hatch so your own build is not the best either.
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On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening.
Um, regardless of being master or GM, 1 base roach doesn't make any sort of sense in the metagame. You cannot expand easily, and you are stuck on 2 base while your opponent is free to do whatever he wants (double expand, even triple expand) because if you try to push out he just conters you with lings and kills your expo, then mass spine his expo.
The game against Idra is pure BO loss and has nothing to do with your build being good or not, idk why it's even there. He goes 15 hatch --> roach, and you went mass ling. Auto lose.
Lastly, your build will not fare well against 2 base defensive baneling assuming equal micro. At that point you're HOPING he messes up. That's not an efficient way to play starcraft at all.
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Hello and first of all thanks for the post! Coming from a mid master's Z (nobody special) I cannot deny the cost efficiency of a ling bling expand. My question for you is: If you were playing yourself(Same skill in every way) would you be confident in this style vs the more cost efficient ling bling expo?
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seems to me like this loses against any baneling build.
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Been playing my ZvZs like this since reading the guide and I am actually very pleasantly surprised by the results. Haven't lost against anything (besides a 6 pool drone all in, and 10 pool/10 gas fast baneling all in) with it yet. And most of the games were against ling/bling compositions. Seems like a free win against roach openings, since you can almost indefinitely deny their expansion. Ling bling is much tougher but very very doable. I find as long as you do what Tang says and just engage his lings as often as possible and make a decent effort at picking of banelings with 1-3 lings you can be very aggressive with pure ling against ling/bling into expo build.
If you do find yourself on the back foot, you can manage their aggression very well with a couple queens, your lings, and a spine crawler. You just have to make sure to again only engage banelings with small groups of lings, or preferably target them down with your queens and spinecrawler. Having a small ling group (8 or so) on the map ready to counter attack also keeps them from streaming units into your base and more often then not they are too busy microing at your base to defend efficiently with anything they might have left to guard a counter attack.
If you are gonna do this though make sure you practice splitting your drones. There are times they get to your mineral line, but if you split well you can make them trade a baneling or two for a drone which is a horrendous trade for them.
Again all this stuff is just observations that I've found with this composition over the course of 8 or so ZvZs. I'm mid masters player so it at least works on somewhat competent players reliably.
Thanks for the guide, its actually alot of fun, and a very intense way to play.
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Thanks for this guide TangSC
Before i started using this, i had a 12 Zerg Vs Zerg Losing Streak which made me lose sooooo many matches. But now, when i first tried it, i won with a base race cause i had sooooo many more lungs than my opponent and subsequently, i have been winning all my ZvZs and gotten rage quits from like countless players LOL
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On October 13 2011 02:43 Zokkar wrote:
seems to me like this loses against any baneling build.
Well no, it just requires different skills. You will have a superior ling count, so it comes down to your positioning/tactical play. Have to exploit your map control (Banelings are slow) and your ability to engage in ling vs ling battles.
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I'm only a bad (low) masters player, and I usually do a hatch first roach defense build every game these days. On some maps, the speedling expand with mass speedlings does badly against my build because I'm able to block the ramp and defend the hatch with only a few roaches. On maps with a very spread-out natural, however, it is impossible for me to make enough roaches and also stay ahead. The strength of this build vs the roaches is mobility, map-control, and threat of counter attacking. I recently have discovered that with my early drone scout that I can see if they take guys off gas and put an expo down, and the timing usually works out that I can get a bane nest down instead of the roach warren. If i scout the speedling expand in time, I think it's very hard for it to work. Definitely viable and not a bad build at all, though; I've lost to it many times.
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I think almost any roach build will come out behind against an experienced player who masses lings. They'll either have enough lings to deny your expansion OR they'll get more drones if you over commit to roaches.
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this is what I do too it's extremely potent. Once you learn how to microa gainst banelings with pure ling it's a great build.
If they go baneling I normally follow up with roaches, but most often I tend to get map control and teching to mutalisks
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EPT
