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[G]Hyper-Aggressive ZvZ: 2Hatch Ling(Season 3 GM)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 20:29:25
October 11 2011 20:18 GMT
#1
Zerg v Zerg Mass Ling All-In (Or is it?)

[image loading]


Examples

+ Show Spoiler +
Here is an example against LiquidSheth:
http://drop.sc/55500

Here is an example of how to hold early gas/pool:
http://drop.sc/65903

Here are a tutorial of this style against the common 14/14Ling baneling all in:
http://www.youtube.com/ratanakdefectueux#p/c/8E20E4384342A73E/3/EE2AMdI6ndo

Here is a game I played against coLRyze where I showcase an aggressive transition after massling:


Here is a game I played against coLCatZ utilizing my style:
http://www.youtube.com/ratanakdefectueux#p/c/4A0B7EB686026A9B/10/0JEDp7Wb8-Y

Here is a short game against EGIdrA:
http://www.youtube.com/ratanakdefectueux#p/c/4A0B7EB686026A9B/11/9vAAserrzdc

Replays!
In the course of laddering, I saved additional replays against top contenders on the NA server. All of my opponents are experienced, TOP master players:
http://drop.sc/55499 (Raine)
http://drop.sc/55503 (Computer)
http://drop.sc/55496 (YanagiNagi)
http://drop.sc/55485 (Goswer)
http://drop.sc/55482 (sKsDhalism)
http://drop.sc/54766 (ZeroSkill)
http://drop.sc/54765 (ZelNiq)
http://drop.sc/54760 (Unyb)
http://drop.sc/54759 (TylerDurden)
http://drop.sc/54757 (Sushi)
http://drop.sc/54755 (Secretasnman)
http://drop.sc/54753 (REQShuffle)
http://drop.sc/54751 (PPGbubbles)
http://drop.sc/54743 (Inflowlooky)
http://drop.sc/54740 (FruitDealer)
http://drop.sc/54738 (FitzyHere)
http://drop.sc/54737 (FitzyHere2)
http://drop.sc/54732 (Element)
http://drop.sc/54730 (DarkChigo)
http://drop.sc/54727 (clSBellini)
http://drop.sc/54724 (BuBuKitty)
http://drop.sc/54723 (bnYdice)
http://drop.sc/54722 (bnYdice2)
http://drop.sc/54721 (BlackMamba)


The Concept

+ Show Spoiler +
As many of you know, I encourage aspiring zerg players to adapt an aggressive style of play. There's no matchup where this more crucial than ZvZ, as the very nature of the matchup is explosive and fast-paced. Open with a 14/14 Speedling Expand to hold off any early pressure while getting fast speed. Instead of droning or teching, continue to mass speedlings off 2 bases with 2queens.
[image loading]
Put a lot of pressure on your opponent if he expands or just use pure ling/spine/queen to hold off his 1base all-in. It's a great way to end the game outright fairly early, but with 2 hatch 2 queen you still have a reasonable economic follow through. Furthermore, your superior ling count will give you complete map control, denying his scouting while you decide whether to drone, continue producing lings, or tech.
ZvZ is my best matchup and I thoroughly standby this build as one of the most fun and powerful ways of playing.


The Build

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
9 Overlord (I do not drone scout in ZvZ)
14 Gas
14 Pool
15 Overlord (Important to position overlords so that you see whether your opponent has expanded or not, also important to make a line of vision with overlords to his base)
15 Queen (Take guys out of gas at 100)
17 2xLings/speed (You must attempt to get into the main with at least 1-2 of these lings to see: is he mining gas, has he made a nest/warren)
19 Go back into drone production until you have EXACTLY 16drones mining at your main 2per patch.
21 Expansion hatchery.
20 2nd queen
22 Overlord
After 22 supply, in most situations you will continue to mass lings and attempt to outright kill your opponent. The execution of this build, however, depends on what your opponent is doing.


Economical Considerations/Alternative Openings

+ Show Spoiler +
The more you optimize your opening, the more lings you're able to produce. This means you need to be very aware of your mining drones, because occasionally 3 will start mining in the further-away patches with only 1 on the close patches. When this happens you need to manually micro one of the excess drones onto the other patch so that all your patches have 2 mining (Again, total of 16 drones) You can do less-safe variations of the build against players that you know don't open early pool, giving you a surplus in lings later on but you will outright die to any early pool. For example:

9Overlord
15pool (Going pool first means a faster queen, more minerals, but slower speed)
15gas
Drones all the way to 18/18
18 Take your 2nd gas and build an evo chamber to get back to 16supply and build your queen, then cancel both buildings putting you at 20 supply over 18. Then build an overlord and take your expansion about 30seconds earlier than if you went 14gas/14pool.
Again, you're sacrificing safety for an increased ling count in future.


Execution vs 1base Ling/Baneling all-in

+ Show Spoiler +
It's very important to have your overlord at his natural by the 4minute mark. If he hasn't expanded by 4min, something is up and it might be wise to get a spine(after your 2nd queen) in your base to keep at the top of your ramp. If you can, try to get a ling or 2 into his main to see if he has a bane nest or is mining gas, but scouting no expansion is a big tell.

Against the 14/14 ling bane style, it's important to utilize your superior ling count to your advantage. For a lot of players, 1base baneling will be the hardest to hold with your speedling-only expansion because you need pretty good micro/multitasking. It's important to utilize your superior ling count to your advantage: you have to engage ling vs ling battles as often as possible and pull away your lings when banelings get close. Also, try to find ways to pick off 1 baneling here and there with 1-2 lings. You do NOT want to stay back and defend with your lings at your expansion or ramp, typically, as this is a narrow/enclosed area where one misclick will result in you losing all your lings. Instead, you want to try to take the battle either to a wide-open area or to his base by aggressively looking for situations to counter attack. Be aware that more cunning players will have a baneling or 2 in their mineral line, so keep an eye for this when you do your countering.

If banelings make it into your base, you need to quickly spread out your drones so that you lose minimal drones to his baneling explosions. If you're not good at manually doing this, try hotkeying 2-3 drones on 7, 8, 9, and 0. That way, you can press 7 right-click, 8 right-click, 9 right-click, 0 right-click to spread your drones out very quickly and efficiently (You don't use these hotkeys early on anyway)

When he's coming in for his baneling/ling push, do a counter attack and use 1 spine at the top of your ramp, 2 queens, and reinforcing lings to hold off his push (Trying as best you can to pick off banelings with small ling groups/queens/spine.) Hopefully, you will kill his mineral line with minimal casualties to your drones back at home. Keep in mind you should NOT be droning against any 1base attack.


Execution vs 1base Roach or Roach/Speedling

+ Show Spoiler +
This is probably one of the easier builds to defend. Again, it's important to scout his expansion by the 4minute mark so you know whether to build a spine. If he's expanding, skip the spine, if he's not, get one. Then basically mass lings off 2 hatch and get your spine down to your expansion. Don't try to engage at his base or try to pressure him, just wait til he gets to your base (because that's when and where your army will be strongest) and defend it easily with ling/spine.

Execution vs Hatch first (Roaches)

+ Show Spoiler +
If players are too greedy, they die outright to mass lings and you will get a lot of easy easy wins. However, smarter players will get a spine up or go for very fast roaches to block the ramp. Once you see the ramp walled, you want to continue streaming lings aggressively to mostly focus on killing his hatchery. Once he pulls off his ramp though, stream those lings around his roaches for a good surround and kill them and move into the mineral line. If he keeps pulling his roaches back to the ramp in time and you can't surround, just go back to the hatchery. Sometimes it'll take 2, 3, or 4 attempts until you either a) Kill his hatchery, b) surround his roaches and move into his main to end the game.
NOTE: If they go for roaches off 1base and then expand, you can perform the build with similar execution OR play a more macro-oriented style and go for slightly later roaches. Just be prepared for the destiny style roach/ling all-in.
Examples above: EGIdrA and coLRyze


Execution vs Hatch-first (Ling/baneling)

+ Show Spoiler +
Strifecro beats me with this style every time with pure ling/baneling and it's probably the best response to a speedling expand. You will still have a superior ling count with my build, but if he's defending well with banes, a spine, lings, and queens, it can be very difficult to win early. Still, you may catch your opponent over droning after he builds 2 banelings and if you snipe those banes with 1 ling you can overwhelm him with your mass ling you can win a good percentage of the time. Also, if you keep him contained in his base he may overproduce defenses allowing you to secure a macro advantage moving into one of the transitions mentioned later in this thread.

Most often, though, you will not kill him and be forced to pull back, at which point you're faced with a problem: If he all-ins with ling/bane as a counter, you need spines to defend as pure-ling won't work vs ling/bane in a defensive situation. My usual response is to get a warren and some drones while I'm pressuring with lings, and make roaches to defend any counter attack. Then if he attacks, I can defend - if he doesn't, I can execute a roach/ling attack.


Execution vs Cheese

+ Show Spoiler +
If he cheeses with a very early pool, run your drones away until your 4 lings come out then defend with lings and drones. If you're scared, get a spine started too but I usually don't. Delay your expansion hatch by building your 2nd queen and an overlord immediately. Once you have a decent ling count and have held all early pressure, take your expo - make sure speed is on the way. Once you hold the cheese, I like to counter all-in because the opponent will be hard-pressed to hold a 2base2queen ling push. However, you can always get speedlings and take your expansion while refusing to allow his expo.


Transitions

+ Show Spoiler +
Even if you can't kill your opponent or do damage to the drones, your opponent HAS TO build defense to live. It's impossible for them to lose virtually nothing to that many zerglings, they need very adequate defenses. You'll find you're really not in THAT bad of a position with 2 queens and 1 fully saturated base, as you can easily use one round of larva to almost fully saturate your 2nd base and be just fine. Also, with the amount of lings you have to can theoretically keep him stuck in his base a long time and squeeze out a few drones here and there. The problem with doing this, however, is if your opponent counter attacks and you have no defense but lings, you might be in trouble. I can't tell you how many games I switched over into drone production and lost to a counter-attack, so you need to be active with your speedlings to scout their expansion and how many drones they're producing, and if they overproduce units, you just have to produce units or defense just in case they counter. What I recommend is practicing with adding a drone or 2 sparingly while still making lings, so that your economy is slowly improving while your opponent's is staying the same because he's more focused on defense.

Some transitions include:
1) Getting 4 more drones to saturate gas and build either a warren/bane nest and continue the relentless, all-in style aggression.
2) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and moving into roaches to defend any counters while squeezing out an eco advantage while moving into the macro game.
3) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and getting an evo chamber for +1 roaches and doing an aggressive +1 roach/ling timing attack
4) Droning up, building 2 evo chambers to create a semi-wall at your expansion and mostly producing lings/spines to stop any aggression from your opponent. Meanwhile, you can use your gas to tech to very fast mutas or upgraded roaches.
5) Moving into standard mid-game ZvZ with roach/infestor or muta.


Thank you for your time! Enjoy playing aggressive in ZvZ

- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Madous
Profile Joined August 2011
United States21 Posts
October 11 2011 21:24 GMT
#2
I've been messing around with some early ling pressure strategies for ZvZ myself, but none this aggressive. At the Gold level, the usual response if my enemy were to see me speedling expand would be to delay his expansion, get speed/banes, and just keep flooding until I die. Seeing as I droned harder a few minutes beforehand, I'd always end up losing.

Your strategy, on the other hand, looks promising. I'll definitely give it a shot and see how it turns out. Would also like to add, very well-written post. You have replays, a casted replay, build orders, and everything someone would need to try this themselves. Kudos to you!

One question though: If somehow your opponent just has too much for you to be able to kill, whether it be perfectly placed banes, roaches blocking their ramp, or so on, how can you transition out of it? Is it too all-in to survive if your flood doesn't work?
Hydras exist for the sole purpose of getting to trick your opponent into making them so that you can hard counter them with pretty much any other unit in the game.
Arnfasta
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States183 Posts
October 11 2011 21:30 GMT
#3
I'd be interested to see how this stacks up against a +1 speedling pressure build. Might grab a friend and see how the two fair against eachother. Usually got about 24 +1 lings heading to an opponent's base at the 6min mark with an exp behind it.

Given that I'm only Plat though, I wouldn't be surprised if +1 speedlings is something you only see at lower levels. :c Still though, might be interesting to compare.
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
October 11 2011 21:41 GMT
#4
How do you achieve a 50% win rate against hatch first ling bling? By your percentages, this build is perfect when it obviously has hard counters. Surely you should say winrate 0% (unless my opponent messes up).
Karellen
Profile Joined June 2011
United States50 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 23:05:09
October 11 2011 21:42 GMT
#5
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.

Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game.
ShadowWolf
Profile Joined March 2010
United States197 Posts
October 11 2011 21:46 GMT
#6
On October 12 2011 06:30 Arnfasta wrote:
I'd be interested to see how this stacks up against a +1 speedling pressure build. Might grab a friend and see how the two fair against eachother. Usually got about 24 +1 lings heading to an opponent's base at the 6min mark with an exp behind it.

Given that I'm only Plat though, I wouldn't be surprised if +1 speedlings is something you only see at lower levels. :c Still though, might be interesting to compare.


I've been doing a very similar aggressive speedling rush. I've faced a few +1 speedling builds and I'm pretty sure I've yet to lose to any of those (if I have it's probably just being really dumb since I'm only diamond). Usually it's pretty rare that they even get it off the ground since their mineral income is so much lower. Alternatively, sometimes they do get it off the ground but usually only on 1 base and the extra drones + lings I have more than compensate.

This build is a fun way to play a very aggressive ZvZ without doing a 6 pool or some such.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 11 2011 22:40 GMT
#7
On October 12 2011 06:41 Micket wrote:
How do you achieve a 50% win rate against hatch first ling bling? By your percentages, this build is perfect when it obviously has hard counters. Surely you should say winrate 0% (unless my opponent messes up).


Well they're still forced to be defensive or counter, and if you get a good 'read' that they're not going to attack you (like they build 2-3 spines) then you can actually squeeze out an economic advantage. If they have no drones at their expo and they're not making any spines and just massing lings, you can actually get a lead by holding their counter-attack with queens/spine/ling and then kill them later with roach/ling or in a longer macro game.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 11 2011 22:41 GMT
#8
On October 12 2011 06:41 Micket wrote:
How do you achieve a 50% win rate against hatch first ling bling? By your percentages, this build is perfect when it obviously has hard counters. Surely you should say winrate 0% (unless my opponent messes up).


Well this is my experience and ZvZ is my best matchup, so even when they open the theoretically correct hatch first ling/bane defense, I can squeeze out small advantages here and there and occasionally switch into roaches and do another roach/ling style all in.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 22:49:00
October 11 2011 22:48 GMT
#9
On October 12 2011 06:24 Madous wrote:

One question though: If somehow your opponent just has too much for you to be able to kill, whether it be perfectly placed banes, roaches blocking their ramp, or so on, how can you transition out of it? Is it too all-in to survive if your flood doesn't work?


Very good question, I will actually add another paragraph about this but for now I'll respond here. You'll find you're really not in THAT bad of a position with 2 queens and 1 fully saturated base, as you can easily use one round of larva to almost fully saturate your 2nd base and be just fine. Also, with the amount of lings you have to can theoretically keep him stuck in his base a long time and squeeze out a few drones here and there. The problem with doing this, however, is if your opponent counter attacks and you have no defense but lings, you might be in trouble. I can't tell you how many games I switched over into drone production and lost to a counter-attack, so you need to be active with your speedlings to scout their expansion and how many drones they're producing, and if they overproduce units, you just have to produce units or defense just in case they counter.

Some transitions include:
1) Getting 4 more drones to saturate gas and build either a warren/bane nest and continue the relentless, all-in style aggression.
2) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and moving into roaches to defend any counters while squeezing out an eco advantage.
3) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and getting an evo chamber for +1 roaches and doing an aggressive +1 roach/ling timing attack
4) Droning up, building 2 evo chambers to create a semi-wall at your expansion and mostly producing lings/spines to stop any aggression from your opponent. Meanwhile, you can use your gas to tech to very fast mutas or upgraded roaches.

PS: Check out the game against coLRyze for an example of droning up a bit while attacking with lings and transitioning into a roach/ling timing attack before lair.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
[]Phase[]
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium927 Posts
October 11 2011 23:05 GMT
#10
Firstly, How did you come up with those percentages? As mentioned earlier 50% winrate against hatch first (im not limiting it to hatch into bane, as a player who is accustomed to hatch first should know when to go bane, and could even go mass ling himself) seems too high. And considering hatch first is the standard in most cases, I feel like you should focus abit more on that, rather than showing the fancy numbers and you winning vs 1base openers. Also, I hope that you played a good amount games against each of the openers you described above, or else the numbers would mean little.

Your guide is also mainly about winning straight up, or what to do against builds / playstyles that your opener is supposed to crush anyways. Rather adress things like Followup, should it come to that, and Banelings. Like in the video, what had he not went lair and just gotten a nest and a couple of banes? THAT wouldve been interesting. The drone count was close enough to cause an even game. Same for idra, had he gone bane nest the game ends there for you. Against a lesser player you'll eventually work your way to a victory but in a straight up match it won't happen.

So for the sake of being constructive : Could you please adjust your percentages against the standard H first build, or justify them abit more? And can you give your stance on how hard hatch first is supposed to kill you?
Those 'factors', under the H1st bane section, that are so numerous to you, that is where the real learning material is located. I feel like there is more to explore on the H1st section.
Lastly, against a hatch first, I thought it was common knowledge that he can outling you. (assuming he gets the same amount of drones as you) Am I mistaken in this?

My apologies if my commentary offended in any way.
Jagd
Profile Joined April 2011
United States71 Posts
October 11 2011 23:12 GMT
#11
I've experimented with something similar as a response to players who go 15hatch into roach and don't scout incessantly. I do pretty much the same build, at 50 supply (16 drones 2 queens, rest lings) or approx 7:10 I attack opponent's natural, meanwhile I start to mine gas again and put up RW and spend two injects on drones.

I find it's strong against roach expands on maps like typhoon, searing, and others with a wide natural. However if the opponent puts down baneling nest between 5:00-6:00 (he can scout no gas mining) this push is stopped cold; also my partner was able to hold a couple times on typhoon with a spine that protects ramp & 1/2 of the exp, roaches in front of the spine, and two queens blocking the ramp.

Also you don't mention how this plays out against two very common builds: 14 14 roach expand and 14 14 baneling expand. I imagine this would do very well against the former, but be weaker than the latter. Also have you tested against 10p builds that don't attack until speed (10p 10g->3to gas, 10ov, 12 queen, speed, 3 off gas, lings = 4:30 20 lings, 4:45 speed)?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 11 2011 23:14 GMT
#12
On October 12 2011 08:05 []Phase[] wrote:
Firstly, How did you come up with those percentages?


The percentages are certainly not 100% accurate and more meant to showcase how effective each build is against that style. I estimated all of them based on the hundreds and hundreds of ZvZs I've played using this build, and my win rate will vary from others because I have practiced it so many times. However, with optimal execution, there's no reason you can't win at least 50% of games against the hatch first with defensive banelings.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
daggertech
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden24 Posts
October 11 2011 23:30 GMT
#13
Uber aggressiveness, I like it.. The drone splitting vs CatZ was sick!
It just throws your opponent for a loop, even with Ovies out, there is such a limited time to react to it, atleast imo. Very interessting. Gogo Tang <3
chaos~
Profile Joined October 2011
United States13 Posts
October 11 2011 23:35 GMT
#14
several things,
really liking the concept of an extractor/evo for increased economy.
sick drone splitting
LOL at the caster calling your lings "tanglings" xD
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
October 11 2011 23:36 GMT
#15
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 11 2011 23:39 GMT
#16
On October 12 2011 08:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open?


Sorry ballistixz but I don't understand what you're referring to :S
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-11 23:44:17
October 11 2011 23:42 GMT
#17
On October 12 2011 08:39 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 08:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open?


Sorry ballistixz but I don't understand what you're referring to :S


i was reffering to this thread.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273534

im seeing 2 seprate threads of the exact same OP from u unless ive gone crazy or the site is extremly bugged for me.


edit: nvm *facepalm* i trolled myself. the other thread was baneling and this one is about lings. my bad...
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 11 2011 23:56 GMT
#18
On October 12 2011 08:42 Ballistixz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2011 08:39 TangSC wrote:
On October 12 2011 08:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open?


Sorry ballistixz but I don't understand what you're referring to :S


i was reffering to this thread.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273534

im seeing 2 seprate threads of the exact same OP from u unless ive gone crazy or the site is extremly bugged for me.


edit: nvm *facepalm* i trolled myself. the other thread was baneling and this one is about lings. my bad...


LOL np buddy, they do look pretty similar
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noeprellik
Profile Joined March 2011
7 Posts
October 12 2011 01:18 GMT
#19
Hi TangSc, great to read your Guide

first sorry for my bad English, English is not my fluent language. I would like to ask :
1. if I face 1 base, then i make spine. Should i replace that drone for spine or not?
2. Where is the spine position to hold 1 base all in, at top of my main ramp or at my natural?

thank you for the answer ;D
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
October 12 2011 01:27 GMT
#20
[QUOTE]On October 12 2011 10:18 noeprellik wrote:


[quote]1. if I face 1 base, then i make spine. Should i replace that drone for spine or not?[/quote]

Yes, you always want that full 1-base saturation (16 drones 2 per patch). But you at need to get 4-6 lings out right after pool. Remember, even in the very early stages you can engage even ling vs ling battles against 1base ling/baneling because you will have more lings in the long run.

[quote] 2. Where is the spine position to hold 1 base all in, at top of my main ramp or at my natural?[/quote]
For the ling/bane all in, you'll want the spine at the top of the ramp asap because his first push comes too early for you to move down the ramp usually. Sometimes I'll even get 2 spines building at top of ramp and move one down to bottom when hatch finishes, but this cuts into your ling count. When your second queen is out, make a tumor before transferring to expansion so you can have the spine right at the top of the ramp.

For the roach or roach/ling all in, you want spines below the ramp at your expansion.


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