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Zerg v Zerg Mass Ling All-In (Or is it?)
Examples
+ Show Spoiler +
The Concept
+ Show Spoiler +As many of you know, I encourage aspiring zerg players to adapt an aggressive style of play. There's no matchup where this more crucial than ZvZ, as the very nature of the matchup is explosive and fast-paced. Open with a 14/14 Speedling Expand to hold off any early pressure while getting fast speed. Instead of droning or teching, continue to mass speedlings off 2 bases with 2queens. ![[image loading]](http://tangstarcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Zergling2.jpg) Put a lot of pressure on your opponent if he expands or just use pure ling/spine/queen to hold off his 1base all-in. It's a great way to end the game outright fairly early, but with 2 hatch 2 queen you still have a reasonable economic follow through. Furthermore, your superior ling count will give you complete map control, denying his scouting while you decide whether to drone, continue producing lings, or tech. ZvZ is my best matchup and I thoroughly standby this build as one of the most fun and powerful ways of playing.
The Build
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://tangstarcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Zergling.jpg) 9 Overlord (I do not drone scout in ZvZ) 14 Gas 14 Pool 15 Overlord (Important to position overlords so that you see whether your opponent has expanded or not, also important to make a line of vision with overlords to his base) 15 Queen (Take guys out of gas at 100) 17 2xLings/speed (You must attempt to get into the main with at least 1-2 of these lings to see: is he mining gas, has he made a nest/warren) 19 Go back into drone production until you have EXACTLY 16drones mining at your main 2per patch. 21 Expansion hatchery. 20 2nd queen 22 Overlord After 22 supply, in most situations you will continue to mass lings and attempt to outright kill your opponent. The execution of this build, however, depends on what your opponent is doing.
Economical Considerations/Alternative Openings
+ Show Spoiler +The more you optimize your opening, the more lings you're able to produce. This means you need to be very aware of your mining drones, because occasionally 3 will start mining in the further-away patches with only 1 on the close patches. When this happens you need to manually micro one of the excess drones onto the other patch so that all your patches have 2 mining (Again, total of 16 drones) You can do less-safe variations of the build against players that you know don't open early pool, giving you a surplus in lings later on but you will outright die to any early pool. For example:
9Overlord
15pool (Going pool first means a faster queen, more minerals, but slower speed)
15gas
Drones all the way to 18/18
18 Take your 2nd gas and build an evo chamber to get back to 16supply and build your queen, then cancel both buildings putting you at 20 supply over 18. Then build an overlord and take your expansion about 30seconds earlier than if you went 14gas/14pool.
Again, you're sacrificing safety for an increased ling count in future.
Execution vs 1base Ling/Baneling all-in
+ Show Spoiler +It's very important to have your overlord at his natural by the 4minute mark. If he hasn't expanded by 4min, something is up and it might be wise to get a spine(after your 2nd queen) in your base to keep at the top of your ramp. If you can, try to get a ling or 2 into his main to see if he has a bane nest or is mining gas, but scouting no expansion is a big tell.
Against the 14/14 ling bane style, it's important to utilize your superior ling count to your advantage. For a lot of players, 1base baneling will be the hardest to hold with your speedling-only expansion because you need pretty good micro/multitasking. It's important to utilize your superior ling count to your advantage: you have to engage ling vs ling battles as often as possible and pull away your lings when banelings get close. Also, try to find ways to pick off 1 baneling here and there with 1-2 lings. You do NOT want to stay back and defend with your lings at your expansion or ramp, typically, as this is a narrow/enclosed area where one misclick will result in you losing all your lings. Instead, you want to try to take the battle either to a wide-open area or to his base by aggressively looking for situations to counter attack. Be aware that more cunning players will have a baneling or 2 in their mineral line, so keep an eye for this when you do your countering.
If banelings make it into your base, you need to quickly spread out your drones so that you lose minimal drones to his baneling explosions. If you're not good at manually doing this, try hotkeying 2-3 drones on 7, 8, 9, and 0. That way, you can press 7 right-click, 8 right-click, 9 right-click, 0 right-click to spread your drones out very quickly and efficiently (You don't use these hotkeys early on anyway)
When he's coming in for his baneling/ling push, do a counter attack and use 1 spine at the top of your ramp, 2 queens, and reinforcing lings to hold off his push (Trying as best you can to pick off banelings with small ling groups/queens/spine.) Hopefully, you will kill his mineral line with minimal casualties to your drones back at home. Keep in mind you should NOT be droning against any 1base attack.
Execution vs 1base Roach or Roach/Speedling
+ Show Spoiler +This is probably one of the easier builds to defend. Again, it's important to scout his expansion by the 4minute mark so you know whether to build a spine. If he's expanding, skip the spine, if he's not, get one. Then basically mass lings off 2 hatch and get your spine down to your expansion. Don't try to engage at his base or try to pressure him, just wait til he gets to your base (because that's when and where your army will be strongest) and defend it easily with ling/spine.
Execution vs Hatch first (Roaches)
+ Show Spoiler +If players are too greedy, they die outright to mass lings and you will get a lot of easy easy wins. However, smarter players will get a spine up or go for very fast roaches to block the ramp. Once you see the ramp walled, you want to continue streaming lings aggressively to mostly focus on killing his hatchery. Once he pulls off his ramp though, stream those lings around his roaches for a good surround and kill them and move into the mineral line. If he keeps pulling his roaches back to the ramp in time and you can't surround, just go back to the hatchery. Sometimes it'll take 2, 3, or 4 attempts until you either a) Kill his hatchery, b) surround his roaches and move into his main to end the game.
NOTE: If they go for roaches off 1base and then expand, you can perform the build with similar execution OR play a more macro-oriented style and go for slightly later roaches. Just be prepared for the destiny style roach/ling all-in.
Examples above: EGIdrA and coLRyze
Execution vs Hatch-first (Ling/baneling)
+ Show Spoiler +Strifecro beats me with this style every time with pure ling/baneling and it's probably the best response to a speedling expand. You will still have a superior ling count with my build, but if he's defending well with banes, a spine, lings, and queens, it can be very difficult to win early. Still, you may catch your opponent over droning after he builds 2 banelings and if you snipe those banes with 1 ling you can overwhelm him with your mass ling you can win a good percentage of the time. Also, if you keep him contained in his base he may overproduce defenses allowing you to secure a macro advantage moving into one of the transitions mentioned later in this thread.
Most often, though, you will not kill him and be forced to pull back, at which point you're faced with a problem: If he all-ins with ling/bane as a counter, you need spines to defend as pure-ling won't work vs ling/bane in a defensive situation. My usual response is to get a warren and some drones while I'm pressuring with lings, and make roaches to defend any counter attack. Then if he attacks, I can defend - if he doesn't, I can execute a roach/ling attack.
Execution vs Cheese
+ Show Spoiler +If he cheeses with a very early pool, run your drones away until your 4 lings come out then defend with lings and drones. If you're scared, get a spine started too but I usually don't. Delay your expansion hatch by building your 2nd queen and an overlord immediately. Once you have a decent ling count and have held all early pressure, take your expo - make sure speed is on the way. Once you hold the cheese, I like to counter all-in because the opponent will be hard-pressed to hold a 2base2queen ling push. However, you can always get speedlings and take your expansion while refusing to allow his expo.
Transitions
+ Show Spoiler +Even if you can't kill your opponent or do damage to the drones, your opponent HAS TO build defense to live. It's impossible for them to lose virtually nothing to that many zerglings, they need very adequate defenses. You'll find you're really not in THAT bad of a position with 2 queens and 1 fully saturated base, as you can easily use one round of larva to almost fully saturate your 2nd base and be just fine. Also, with the amount of lings you have to can theoretically keep him stuck in his base a long time and squeeze out a few drones here and there. The problem with doing this, however, is if your opponent counter attacks and you have no defense but lings, you might be in trouble. I can't tell you how many games I switched over into drone production and lost to a counter-attack, so you need to be active with your speedlings to scout their expansion and how many drones they're producing, and if they overproduce units, you just have to produce units or defense just in case they counter. What I recommend is practicing with adding a drone or 2 sparingly while still making lings, so that your economy is slowly improving while your opponent's is staying the same because he's more focused on defense.
Some transitions include:
1) Getting 4 more drones to saturate gas and build either a warren/bane nest and continue the relentless, all-in style aggression.
2) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and moving into roaches to defend any counters while squeezing out an eco advantage while moving into the macro game.
3) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and getting an evo chamber for +1 roaches and doing an aggressive +1 roach/ling timing attack
4) Droning up, building 2 evo chambers to create a semi-wall at your expansion and mostly producing lings/spines to stop any aggression from your opponent. Meanwhile, you can use your gas to tech to very fast mutas or upgraded roaches.
5) Moving into standard mid-game ZvZ with roach/infestor or muta.
Thank you for your time! Enjoy playing aggressive in ZvZ 
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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I've been messing around with some early ling pressure strategies for ZvZ myself, but none this aggressive. At the Gold level, the usual response if my enemy were to see me speedling expand would be to delay his expansion, get speed/banes, and just keep flooding until I die. Seeing as I droned harder a few minutes beforehand, I'd always end up losing.
Your strategy, on the other hand, looks promising. I'll definitely give it a shot and see how it turns out. Would also like to add, very well-written post. You have replays, a casted replay, build orders, and everything someone would need to try this themselves. Kudos to you!
One question though: If somehow your opponent just has too much for you to be able to kill, whether it be perfectly placed banes, roaches blocking their ramp, or so on, how can you transition out of it? Is it too all-in to survive if your flood doesn't work?
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I'd be interested to see how this stacks up against a +1 speedling pressure build. Might grab a friend and see how the two fair against eachother. Usually got about 24 +1 lings heading to an opponent's base at the 6min mark with an exp behind it.
Given that I'm only Plat though, I wouldn't be surprised if +1 speedlings is something you only see at lower levels. :c Still though, might be interesting to compare.
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How do you achieve a 50% win rate against hatch first ling bling? By your percentages, this build is perfect when it obviously has hard counters. Surely you should say winrate 0% (unless my opponent messes up).
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I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game.
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On October 12 2011 06:30 Arnfasta wrote:
I'd be interested to see how this stacks up against a +1 speedling pressure build. Might grab a friend and see how the two fair against eachother. Usually got about 24 +1 lings heading to an opponent's base at the 6min mark with an exp behind it.
Given that I'm only Plat though, I wouldn't be surprised if +1 speedlings is something you only see at lower levels. :c Still though, might be interesting to compare.
I've been doing a very similar aggressive speedling rush. I've faced a few +1 speedling builds and I'm pretty sure I've yet to lose to any of those (if I have it's probably just being really dumb since I'm only diamond). Usually it's pretty rare that they even get it off the ground since their mineral income is so much lower. Alternatively, sometimes they do get it off the ground but usually only on 1 base and the extra drones + lings I have more than compensate.
This build is a fun way to play a very aggressive ZvZ without doing a 6 pool or some such.
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On October 12 2011 06:41 Micket wrote:
How do you achieve a 50% win rate against hatch first ling bling? By your percentages, this build is perfect when it obviously has hard counters. Surely you should say winrate 0% (unless my opponent messes up).
Well they're still forced to be defensive or counter, and if you get a good 'read' that they're not going to attack you (like they build 2-3 spines) then you can actually squeeze out an economic advantage. If they have no drones at their expo and they're not making any spines and just massing lings, you can actually get a lead by holding their counter-attack with queens/spine/ling and then kill them later with roach/ling or in a longer macro game.
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On October 12 2011 06:41 Micket wrote:
How do you achieve a 50% win rate against hatch first ling bling? By your percentages, this build is perfect when it obviously has hard counters. Surely you should say winrate 0% (unless my opponent messes up).
Well this is my experience and ZvZ is my best matchup, so even when they open the theoretically correct hatch first ling/bane defense, I can squeeze out small advantages here and there and occasionally switch into roaches and do another roach/ling style all in.
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On October 12 2011 06:24 Madous wrote:
One question though: If somehow your opponent just has too much for you to be able to kill, whether it be perfectly placed banes, roaches blocking their ramp, or so on, how can you transition out of it? Is it too all-in to survive if your flood doesn't work?
Very good question, I will actually add another paragraph about this but for now I'll respond here. You'll find you're really not in THAT bad of a position with 2 queens and 1 fully saturated base, as you can easily use one round of larva to almost fully saturate your 2nd base and be just fine. Also, with the amount of lings you have to can theoretically keep him stuck in his base a long time and squeeze out a few drones here and there. The problem with doing this, however, is if your opponent counter attacks and you have no defense but lings, you might be in trouble. I can't tell you how many games I switched over into drone production and lost to a counter-attack, so you need to be active with your speedlings to scout their expansion and how many drones they're producing, and if they overproduce units, you just have to produce units or defense just in case they counter.
Some transitions include:
1) Getting 4 more drones to saturate gas and build either a warren/bane nest and continue the relentless, all-in style aggression.
2) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and moving into roaches to defend any counters while squeezing out an eco advantage.
3) Droning up a bit (rallied to your expo) and getting an evo chamber for +1 roaches and doing an aggressive +1 roach/ling timing attack
4) Droning up, building 2 evo chambers to create a semi-wall at your expansion and mostly producing lings/spines to stop any aggression from your opponent. Meanwhile, you can use your gas to tech to very fast mutas or upgraded roaches.
PS: Check out the game against coLRyze for an example of droning up a bit while attacking with lings and transitioning into a roach/ling timing attack before lair.
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Firstly, How did you come up with those percentages? As mentioned earlier 50% winrate against hatch first (im not limiting it to hatch into bane, as a player who is accustomed to hatch first should know when to go bane, and could even go mass ling himself) seems too high. And considering hatch first is the standard in most cases, I feel like you should focus abit more on that, rather than showing the fancy numbers and you winning vs 1base openers. Also, I hope that you played a good amount games against each of the openers you described above, or else the numbers would mean little.
Your guide is also mainly about winning straight up, or what to do against builds / playstyles that your opener is supposed to crush anyways. Rather adress things like Followup, should it come to that, and Banelings. Like in the video, what had he not went lair and just gotten a nest and a couple of banes? THAT wouldve been interesting. The drone count was close enough to cause an even game. Same for idra, had he gone bane nest the game ends there for you. Against a lesser player you'll eventually work your way to a victory but in a straight up match it won't happen.
So for the sake of being constructive : Could you please adjust your percentages against the standard H first build, or justify them abit more? And can you give your stance on how hard hatch first is supposed to kill you?
Those 'factors', under the H1st bane section, that are so numerous to you, that is where the real learning material is located. I feel like there is more to explore on the H1st section.
Lastly, against a hatch first, I thought it was common knowledge that he can outling you. (assuming he gets the same amount of drones as you) Am I mistaken in this?
My apologies if my commentary offended in any way.
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I've experimented with something similar as a response to players who go 15hatch into roach and don't scout incessantly. I do pretty much the same build, at 50 supply (16 drones 2 queens, rest lings) or approx 7:10 I attack opponent's natural, meanwhile I start to mine gas again and put up RW and spend two injects on drones.
I find it's strong against roach expands on maps like typhoon, searing, and others with a wide natural. However if the opponent puts down baneling nest between 5:00-6:00 (he can scout no gas mining) this push is stopped cold; also my partner was able to hold a couple times on typhoon with a spine that protects ramp & 1/2 of the exp, roaches in front of the spine, and two queens blocking the ramp.
Also you don't mention how this plays out against two very common builds: 14 14 roach expand and 14 14 baneling expand. I imagine this would do very well against the former, but be weaker than the latter. Also have you tested against 10p builds that don't attack until speed (10p 10g->3to gas, 10ov, 12 queen, speed, 3 off gas, lings = 4:30 20 lings, 4:45 speed)?
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On October 12 2011 08:05 []Phase[] wrote:
Firstly, How did you come up with those percentages?
The percentages are certainly not 100% accurate and more meant to showcase how effective each build is against that style. I estimated all of them based on the hundreds and hundreds of ZvZs I've played using this build, and my win rate will vary from others because I have practiced it so many times. However, with optimal execution, there's no reason you can't win at least 50% of games against the hatch first with defensive banelings.
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Uber aggressiveness, I like it.. The drone splitting vs CatZ was sick!
It just throws your opponent for a loop, even with Ovies out, there is such a limited time to react to it, atleast imo. Very interessting. Gogo Tang <3
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several things,
really liking the concept of an extractor/evo for increased economy.
sick drone splitting
LOL at the caster calling your lings "tanglings" xD
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so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open?
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On October 12 2011 08:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open?
Sorry ballistixz but I don't understand what you're referring to :S
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On October 12 2011 08:39 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 08:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open? Sorry ballistixz but I don't understand what you're referring to :S
i was reffering to this thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273534
im seeing 2 seprate threads of the exact same OP from u unless ive gone crazy or the site is extremly bugged for me.
edit: nvm *facepalm* i trolled myself. the other thread was baneling and this one is about lings. my bad...
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On October 12 2011 08:42 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 08:39 TangSC wrote:On October 12 2011 08:36 Ballistixz wrote:
so, why did u feel the need to copy paste a 2nd thread even tho the first thread u made on this is still open? Sorry ballistixz but I don't understand what you're referring to :S i was reffering to this thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=273534im seeing 2 seprate threads of the exact same OP from u unless ive gone crazy or the site is extremly bugged for me. edit: nvm *facepalm* i trolled myself. the other thread was baneling and this one is about lings. my bad...
LOL np buddy, they do look pretty similar
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Hi TangSc, great to read your Guide
first sorry for my bad English, English is not my fluent language. I would like to ask :
1. if I face 1 base, then i make spine. Should i replace that drone for spine or not?
2. Where is the spine position to hold 1 base all in, at top of my main ramp or at my natural?
thank you for the answer ;D
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[QUOTE]On October 12 2011 10:18 noeprellik wrote:
[quote]1. if I face 1 base, then i make spine. Should i replace that drone for spine or not?[/quote]
Yes, you always want that full 1-base saturation (16 drones 2 per patch). But you at need to get 4-6 lings out right after pool. Remember, even in the very early stages you can engage even ling vs ling battles against 1base ling/baneling because you will have more lings in the long run.
[quote] 2. Where is the spine position to hold 1 base all in, at top of my main ramp or at my natural?[/quote]
For the ling/bane all in, you'll want the spine at the top of the ramp asap because his first push comes too early for you to move down the ramp usually. Sometimes I'll even get 2 spines building at top of ramp and move one down to bottom when hatch finishes, but this cuts into your ling count. When your second queen is out, make a tumor before transferring to expansion so you can have the spine right at the top of the ramp.
For the roach or roach/ling all in, you want spines below the ramp at your expansion.
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On October 12 2011 08:12 Jagd wrote:
Also you don't mention how this plays out against two very common builds: 14 14 roach expand and 14 14 baneling expand. I imagine this would do very well against the former, but be weaker than the latter. Also have you tested against 10p builds that don't attack until speed (10p 10g->3to gas, 10ov, 12 queen, speed, 3 off gas, lings = 4:30 20 lings, 4:45 speed)?
Against 10pool builds you just have to pull back your lings and play defensive with lings/queen. Your speed will be slightly later than his but you just have to get in as good a first engagement as you can as your defensive advantage will let you secure a superior ling count eventually (but not for the first engagement)
Against the 14/14 Roach expand, you should almost always be able to deny his expansion OR get into the main if he pulls off the ramp to defend his hatchery.
Against the 14/14 Baneling expand, you get a faster expansion and hopefully can keep him contained to one base. I like to pressure with lings, try to pick off his lings/banelings with minimal losses, and slowly add drones to my expo and go for a roach/ling timing attack. It's a dicey situation though, because if he goes into a ling/bane all-in it's hard to hold with only lings so you have to be active with the lings you have at the front and if he's ever getting close to outmassing lings, you need to either get those roaches out asap or spine up.
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This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
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While I think that mass ling is quite viable against ling/bling (though if both players have PERFECT micro I think that ling/bling will win), I watched your "tutorial" window and was frankly unimpressed.
In the video, he runs in with his lings and blings. You decide "counter-attack" and he, for whatever reason, chases you halfway... then leaves his lings in the middle of the map while his banelings do literally nothing and your lings destroy his base. This is really not a good example.
Not that Catz is a bad player, but if he had split his banelings to go around opposite sides of the hatchery he would have gotten plenty of drones. Not to mention the fact that his queen looks to have over 50 energy when your mass of lings hits his base, while half of his lings are sitting in the middle of the map. What if Catz had simply left 1 baneling in the area where his morphed all 3 of his, blocking that way towards his base?
Really, my point is that that game and explanation makes the build look much more powerful than it is. A player going ling/bling has a lot of options and micro tricks. If he had morphed 1 or 2 banelings at home and positioned them at the top of his ramp he would have held your counter with very little effort (you run straight up the ramp, you don't even lead with 1 zergling)
This is more of a "if you're extremely confident in your micro, do this build". It seems like a much better idea to get the bling nest for the "just in case I screw up" moment.
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Ling/Bling will always beat pure ling with comparable micro, I see no pro's for this over ling bling expand.
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United States15536 Posts
On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
Ummm... those are some pretty serious accusations. Whether you like the strat or not, you're going to have to show a little (read: a lot of) evidence before coming into someone's well-constructed thread and giving them shit.
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This is like your 1 base bane build against Terran, nothing new at all....
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On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
No one has ever played on any of my accounts but me. If you'd like to join me on skype, I will talk to you while I play someone high level. It's absolutely not a "concensus", it's a few jealous individuals looking for a reason to be angry. I've been consistently ranked in top global masters and grand masters since beta, and this type of criticism is offensive and blatantly untrue. I'm not claiming I'm spectacular or ready to join GSL, but I have put so much effort into improving my own skills and the skills of others that I find it baffling you'd take the time to spread such ridiculous untruths.
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I didn't learn much from this thread. I've actually done this before many times, and it's bad.
If your opponent ling/bling you won't be able to expand or you lose, provided your opponent isn't worse than you. And if you don't expand, then the build is pointless.
It works against roaches but anyone doing (blind or not) roaches when their opponent is speed ling expanding, is bad - unless you yourself is bad enough not hitting him before he have enough roaches to block the ramp to the natural. And the latter is only doable with hatch first pretty much, and that counters pool->hatch. In others, this build pointless in that scenario too.
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Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad...
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On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad...
Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening.
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On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening.
Well him being skilled certainly doesn't show through his openings... Also a speedling expand straight up loses to a 14 gas 14 pool ling bling, and doesn't beat a 15 hatch so your own build is not the best either.
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On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening.
Um, regardless of being master or GM, 1 base roach doesn't make any sort of sense in the metagame. You cannot expand easily, and you are stuck on 2 base while your opponent is free to do whatever he wants (double expand, even triple expand) because if you try to push out he just conters you with lings and kills your expo, then mass spine his expo.
The game against Idra is pure BO loss and has nothing to do with your build being good or not, idk why it's even there. He goes 15 hatch --> roach, and you went mass ling. Auto lose.
Lastly, your build will not fare well against 2 base defensive baneling assuming equal micro. At that point you're HOPING he messes up. That's not an efficient way to play starcraft at all.
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Hello and first of all thanks for the post! Coming from a mid master's Z (nobody special) I cannot deny the cost efficiency of a ling bling expand. My question for you is: If you were playing yourself(Same skill in every way) would you be confident in this style vs the more cost efficient ling bling expo?
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seems to me like this loses against any baneling build.
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Been playing my ZvZs like this since reading the guide and I am actually very pleasantly surprised by the results. Haven't lost against anything (besides a 6 pool drone all in, and 10 pool/10 gas fast baneling all in) with it yet. And most of the games were against ling/bling compositions. Seems like a free win against roach openings, since you can almost indefinitely deny their expansion. Ling bling is much tougher but very very doable. I find as long as you do what Tang says and just engage his lings as often as possible and make a decent effort at picking of banelings with 1-3 lings you can be very aggressive with pure ling against ling/bling into expo build.
If you do find yourself on the back foot, you can manage their aggression very well with a couple queens, your lings, and a spine crawler. You just have to make sure to again only engage banelings with small groups of lings, or preferably target them down with your queens and spinecrawler. Having a small ling group (8 or so) on the map ready to counter attack also keeps them from streaming units into your base and more often then not they are too busy microing at your base to defend efficiently with anything they might have left to guard a counter attack.
If you are gonna do this though make sure you practice splitting your drones. There are times they get to your mineral line, but if you split well you can make them trade a baneling or two for a drone which is a horrendous trade for them.
Again all this stuff is just observations that I've found with this composition over the course of 8 or so ZvZs. I'm mid masters player so it at least works on somewhat competent players reliably.
Thanks for the guide, its actually alot of fun, and a very intense way to play.
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Thanks for this guide TangSC
Before i started using this, i had a 12 Zerg Vs Zerg Losing Streak which made me lose sooooo many matches. But now, when i first tried it, i won with a base race cause i had sooooo many more lungs than my opponent and subsequently, i have been winning all my ZvZs and gotten rage quits from like countless players LOL
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On October 13 2011 02:43 Zokkar wrote:
seems to me like this loses against any baneling build.
Well no, it just requires different skills. You will have a superior ling count, so it comes down to your positioning/tactical play. Have to exploit your map control (Banelings are slow) and your ability to engage in ling vs ling battles.
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I'm only a bad (low) masters player, and I usually do a hatch first roach defense build every game these days. On some maps, the speedling expand with mass speedlings does badly against my build because I'm able to block the ramp and defend the hatch with only a few roaches. On maps with a very spread-out natural, however, it is impossible for me to make enough roaches and also stay ahead. The strength of this build vs the roaches is mobility, map-control, and threat of counter attacking. I recently have discovered that with my early drone scout that I can see if they take guys off gas and put an expo down, and the timing usually works out that I can get a bane nest down instead of the roach warren. If i scout the speedling expand in time, I think it's very hard for it to work. Definitely viable and not a bad build at all, though; I've lost to it many times.
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I think almost any roach build will come out behind against an experienced player who masses lings. They'll either have enough lings to deny your expansion OR they'll get more drones if you over commit to roaches.
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this is what I do too it's extremely potent. Once you learn how to microa gainst banelings with pure ling it's a great build.
If they go baneling I normally follow up with roaches, but most often I tend to get map control and teching to mutalisks
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On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM.
i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well.
Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games
http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg
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Never paid anyone to leave a game
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On November 08 2011 02:56 TangSC wrote:Never paid anyone to leave a game
you make it kinda hard to believe when you add smileys to both messages in the picture where you paid the guy to leave and your post. lol..
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On November 08 2011 02:16 dicksonlam708 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM. i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well. Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg
http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/?action=view¤t=DizonBlackmail.jpg
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On November 08 2011 04:48 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:16 dicksonlam708 wrote:On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM. i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well. Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/?action=view¤t=DizonBlackmail.jpg
LOL well played Tang, well played.
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Seen this back in the beta, nothing new at all
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On November 08 2011 04:48 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:16 dicksonlam708 wrote:On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM. i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well. Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/?action=view¤t=DizonBlackmail.jpg
Do you have any proof that dicksonlam708 is Dizon? Or, for that matter, any proof that Dizon isn't just a friend of yours posing for a picture?
Furthermore, even if it's legitimate, this doesn't exonerate you - it merely also paints someone else negatively.
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It's a silly accusation. If you show me one person who claims to have accepted money for leaving a game I've played in ladder, I'll show you a liar.
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This is a BO loss on many maps vs first hatch first roach, hatch first ling bane, and hatch first pure ling. While it may be the best build in 1 base vs 1 base in theory it can still lose vs any good baneling hit if the opponent positions his units correctly.
The game vs idra didn't show anything at all, he was a little overgreedy and left when he saw your lings, if he would have cut 2 workers for a slightly earlier roach warren he could have easily had 4-5 roaches in time to defend losing almost nothing and being ahead in the macro game.
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On November 08 2011 06:11 BinxyBrown wrote:
This is a BO loss on many maps vs first hatch first roach, hatch first ling bane, and hatch first pure ling. While it may be the best build in 1 base vs 1 base in theory it can still lose vs any good baneling hit if the opponent positions his units correctly.
The game vs idra didn't show anything at all, he was a little overgreedy and left when he saw your lings, if he would have cut 2 workers for a slightly earlier roach warren he could have easily had 4-5 roaches in time to defend losing almost nothing and being ahead in the macro game.
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a BO loss, mate, as it has some distinct advantages over those builds. I've used this build exclusively in ZvZ for a long time and it's my best matchup by far.
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What would you say is the best defense against this? I'm facing ling/bling allins almost every ZvZ and it's incredibly frustrating.
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I mean the best defense is a good offense, adapt an aggressive ZvZ style yourself or have really good roach defense.
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I've been using this, and even though I'm not super high level, it has literally just stomped everyone I've played against. Since the start of the new season, literally 100% winrate vZ.
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On November 08 2011 07:47 TangSC wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a BO loss, mate, as it has some distinct advantages over those builds. I've used this build exclusively in ZvZ for a long time and it's my best matchup by far.
Really? When we've played the last couple of times you've seemed to like to 9 or 10pool me...
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This is a dumb build that autoloses to any kind of baneling opener.
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This is a cheesey build that I was doing when I was in platinum and didn't know how to ZvZ :/ .
Tang, you pass off all your builds as high level when they are just all-ins that have been around since the game came out. Maybe you'd get more respect if you actually showed more creativity with your builds or talked about more of a macro focus.
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On November 08 2011 05:33 Glexarn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:48 TangSC wrote:On November 08 2011 02:16 dicksonlam708 wrote:On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM. i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well. Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/?action=view¤t=DizonBlackmail.jpg Do you have any proof that dicksonlam708 is Dizon? Or, for that matter, any proof that Dizon isn't just a friend of yours posing for a picture? Furthermore, even if it's legitimate, this doesn't exonerate you - it merely also paints someone else negatively.
My first post and I'm here to clear up the facts because I'm sick of the bull shit.
1. I am the source of this picture, not Dizon or anyone else. Tang did not pay me to leave the game, merely because I did not leave the game. Given what I know of Tang and his ethics, I already knew that I wouldn't have received anything had I left anyways. (the replay has not been uploaded, so I am the only possible holder of that replay, if evidence is needed).
2. If you watch any of Tang's replays, and actually think about his build order - it's all blind cheese, not reactive aggression like he calls it. And there's nothing fundamental wrong with it, but just because a llama vaguely resembles a horse, you don't call it a horse.
3. Call it hearsay, but the community of top level sc2 players is relatively small. The arguments are always the same - enter a chat channel and the good players are laughing away at Tang while the bronze-diamond always jump into his defense. Well, here are the reasons why we don't appreciate the guides:
- We have good reason to believe you had your account leveled. Suspiciously different hotkey usage and even race changes, with several (yes, more than one) people claiming to have leveled your account. After you were unable to find a leveler following the GM reset, your winrate plummeted and you are barely winning 50%. Unfortunately, it's not just hearsay and rumors that are annoying either.
- You are one of the only people to leverage your (ex) GM position, rather than actual skill, to benefit yourself financially, and this is probably what led to people investigating your account in the first place. You then used your position to claim to be a professional starcraft player, which may be believable to susceptible individuals who don't know better.
- In the same way, these guides are also solely intended for you financial benefit, and not to help the SC2 community. I guess that's fine - but the worst part is that you decide to name these blatantly generic and common builds after yourself (with the exception of this post). As MANY people have pointed out - there's nothing new here, the innovation here isn't close to what iEchoic did, and even then it was pretty damn annoying.
/endrant.
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On November 08 2011 06:53 sdrawkcab_ wrote:
What would you say is the best defense against this? I'm facing ling/bling allins almost every ZvZ and it's incredibly frustrating.
Its really easy actually (people that do this to me are just handing me a free win its so kind of them :D). You should have an ovelord to check his drone count, speedlings of your own to run 1 around and check his drone count + ling count. If you see low drones you know he's all inning with something so just prepare by massing a ton of units.
If you go banelings at all then this is also a super easy free win. You should have a decent amount of lings and always should have some defensive banelings if you don't plan on being aggressive and once you see his all in ling coming your way you already have some banelings, so make some more, make sure they don't hit 1 ling and hit a lot of them and it is essentially a free win.
Really I would only do this build if you don't care about improving. If you are trying to improve your game this strategy is not something to do as while it'll get you some easy wins sometimes this build is just hoping your opponent is being to greedy, not have banelings. So if you don't care about improving and want fast wins sure copy this go ahead but yeah.
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On October 12 2011 06:42 Karellen wrote:
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game.
Instead of "learning" from Tang, wouldnt it be nicer to actually be good at this game?
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On November 08 2011 14:34 chingchong99 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:42 Karellen wrote:
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game. Instead of "learning" from Tang, wouldnt it be nicer to actually be good at this game?
Cheese and all-ins have everything to do with this game as much as a macro game does. SC2 is a dynamic game that's great because it's not always some long macro. Go look at the most recent sen/naniwa game in the ipl4 qualifiers. Sen was pretty cheesy (not going into details to avoid spoilers), but you get the idea. Great games aren't always macro. It only really gets annoying when you get the kids who go random time and time again just to use the cheese for whatever race they choose, best part about that is that when their cheese fails you pretty much auto win.
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On November 08 2011 14:53 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 14:34 chingchong99 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:42 Karellen wrote:
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game. Instead of "learning" from Tang, wouldnt it be nicer to actually be good at this game? Cheese and all-ins have everything to do with this game as much as a macro game does. SC2 is a dynamic game that's great because it's not always some long macro. Go look at the most recent sen/naniwa game in the ipl4 qualifiers. Sen was pretty cheesy (not going into details to avoid spoilers), but you get the idea. Great games aren't always macro. It only really gets annoying when you get the kids who go random time and time again just to use the cheese for whatever race they choose, best part about that is that when their cheese fails you pretty much auto win.
Why do all the bad players attempt to defend Tang with this logic? He's not advertising this as a guide for cheese; he's advertising this as a guide for high-level aggressive play. It's not - this is the kind of shit I experienced in Platinum league. It's in no way safe aggression; it's an allin hinging on the fact that he has made pure roach with no spines or simply no units at all. Any kind of baneling play immediately shuts this down; any kind of hatch first mass ling shuts this down; any kind of hatch first ling bling shuts it down...hell, even a onebase +1 roach allin would beat this (which is saying a lot because one base roach sucks against speedling openers).
More importantly, while it's important to know cheese for tournament play, just cheesing on ladder won't make you any better, and even more importantly, there's a distinction between knowing how to cheese and cheesing nearly every game (as Tang does).
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On November 08 2011 14:58 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 14:53 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 08 2011 14:34 chingchong99 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:42 Karellen wrote:
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game. Instead of "learning" from Tang, wouldnt it be nicer to actually be good at this game? Cheese and all-ins have everything to do with this game as much as a macro game does. SC2 is a dynamic game that's great because it's not always some long macro. Go look at the most recent sen/naniwa game in the ipl4 qualifiers. Sen was pretty cheesy (not going into details to avoid spoilers), but you get the idea. Great games aren't always macro. It only really gets annoying when you get the kids who go random time and time again just to use the cheese for whatever race they choose, best part about that is that when their cheese fails you pretty much auto win. Why do all the bad players attempt to defend Tang with this logic? He's not advertising this as a guide for cheese; he's advertising this as a guide for high-level aggressive play. It's not - this is the kind of shit I experienced in Platinum league. It's in no way safe aggression; it's an allin hinging on the fact that he has made pure roach with no spines or simply no units at all. Any kind of baneling play immediately shuts this down; any kind of hatch first mass ling shuts this down; any kind of hatch first ling bling shuts it down...hell, even a onebase +1 roach allin would beat this (which is saying a lot because one base roach sucks against speedling openers). More importantly, while it's important to know cheese for tournament play, just cheesing on ladder won't make you any better, and even more importantly, there's a distinction between knowing how to cheese and cheesing nearly every game (as Tang does).
I think executing timing attacks and all-in builds are actually a fantastic way to win games AND learn SC2. I'm not talking about blind cheese, in fact I argue against Blind cheese as an overall weak play style not particularly useful for those trying to improve. Executing aggressive timing attacks, like the ones I showcase in my ZvZ replays in the OP, are the best way to improve win rate and mechanics.
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I've started seeing this opening more in my ZvZ games, and I have to say, what TangSC says regarding the hatch first ling/bane defense seems right in my experience. I am HAPPY to see this build because it's pretty easy to defend extremely efficiently with banes and a spine or two (again, this is hatch first). But you do have to realize it's happening. I think it's easy to get overwhelmed if you don't take the threat seriously enough.
I've been going straight for mutas once my defense seems solid and that has been very effective.
So I think this is weak against a properly executed hatch first into banes.
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On November 10 2011 04:03 OldManZerg wrote:
I've started seeing this opening more in my ZvZ games, and I have to say, what TangSC says regarding the hatch first ling/bane defense seems right in my experience. I am HAPPY to see this build because it's pretty easy to defend extremely efficiently with banes and a spine or two (again, this is hatch first). But you do have to realize it's happening. I think it's easy to get overwhelmed if you don't take the threat seriously enough.
I've been going straight for mutas once my defense seems solid and that has been very effective.
So I think this is weak against a properly executed hatch first into banes.
Good points OldManZerg, hatch first into ling/bane/spine defense is definitely the hardest style to deal with with pure ling. It really comes down to the mass-ling player's micro/multitasking and their ability to transition at the correct stage in the game.
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Effective as hell there is a lot to learn from this type of agressive play, i am a macro zerg and i'm learning this new style and i fin it very agressive and you can do a lot of things after thet lolz
try it out
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On November 08 2011 10:22 lolcanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:33 Glexarn wrote:On November 08 2011 04:48 TangSC wrote:On November 08 2011 02:16 dicksonlam708 wrote:On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM. i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well. Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/?action=view¤t=DizonBlackmail.jpg Do you have any proof that dicksonlam708 is Dizon? Or, for that matter, any proof that Dizon isn't just a friend of yours posing for a picture? Furthermore, even if it's legitimate, this doesn't exonerate you - it merely also paints someone else negatively. My first post and I'm here to clear up the facts because I'm sick of the bull shit. 1. I am the source of this picture, not Dizon or anyone else. Tang did not pay me to leave the game, merely because I did not leave the game. Given what I know of Tang and his ethics, I already knew that I wouldn't have received anything had I left anyways. (the replay has not been uploaded, so I am the only possible holder of that replay, if evidence is needed). 2. If you watch any of Tang's replays, and actually think about his build order - it's all blind cheese, not reactive aggression like he calls it. And there's nothing fundamental wrong with it, but just because a llama vaguely resembles a horse, you don't call it a horse. 3. Call it hearsay, but the community of top level sc2 players is relatively small. The arguments are always the same - enter a chat channel and the good players are laughing away at Tang while the bronze-diamond always jump into his defense. Well, here are the reasons why we don't appreciate the guides: - We have good reason to believe you had your account leveled. Suspiciously different hotkey usage and even race changes, with several (yes, more than one) people claiming to have leveled your account. After you were unable to find a leveler following the GM reset, your winrate plummeted and you are barely winning 50%. Unfortunately, it's not just hearsay and rumors that are annoying either. - You are one of the only people to leverage your (ex) GM position, rather than actual skill, to benefit yourself financially, and this is probably what led to people investigating your account in the first place. You then used your position to claim to be a professional starcraft player, which may be believable to susceptible individuals who don't know better. - In the same way, these guides are also solely intended for you financial benefit, and not to help the SC2 community. I guess that's fine - but the worst part is that you decide to name these blatantly generic and common builds after yourself (with the exception of this post). As MANY people have pointed out - there's nothing new here, the innovation here isn't close to what iEchoic did, and even then it was pretty damn annoying. /endrant.
^totally agreed, admins should ban tang from teamliquid, all he is doing is uploading cheesy strats he wins against some gms to try to prove he is worth something when all it is, is garbage. All he is doing is advertising his website and his coaching services which he charges 20$/hr even to protoss and terran when he clearly DOES NOT PLAY THAT RACe.
it is obvious he is using this website as traffic tunnneler towards his website.
now that he is nearly exposed hes posting up some "helpful hints" without linking his website, then a few weeks down the road he will continue advertising his website.
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Wow, so much hate?
I personnaly like Tang's posts. They are clear, efficient, and more in depth than most of the other strategy posts. He offers new insights on how to play Zerg, but I guess here on TL, the regular poster only wants to stay alive at t1 for 10 minutes while saturating 4 bases... (you should look at david sirlin's page about the scrub)
I do not know anything about this account leveling, and honestly I don't care. His posts help me, and as I must not be the only one in this case, it helps the SC2 community in general.
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Am i the only one that thinks mass ling builds in zvz are common knowledge? not to mention if they 15 hatch and mass ling they will win from having more larvae.
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I'm pretty tired of these guides posted that claim insane winrates, like that "90%+ WIN RATE MOTHERSHIP BUILD!!!!!" yeah, that one lasted a long time, didn't it.
Another "Tang special" where he takes one of the oldest builds in the game and attaches his name and Season 3 rank (lol?) to the thread. I like how all his "Transitions" are into more all-ins, not one macro option even though you can take a third behind this and a 15hatch player can't do anything about it, rather than trying to just force your way through their roaches hoping they didn't make enough to block their ramp and defend their expo. Once you have that level of production and economy, there's a lot more you can do with it than go all-in and Tang would grow as a player to acknowledge and plan for these outcomes.
All that said, it's still a good, if not great, guide how to do a very nice 2base speedling opener. I just wish that
a) Tang wasn't such a try hard.. most people who make a lot of strat threads are more modest about their builds and their persona, and
b) The guide should set realistic expectations instead of claiming some specific rate of victory towards a build (as if the build has more influence than micro or macro), and
c) The guide should have a macro option instead of only encouraging people to do all-ins. You can be aggressive and drop hatcheries behind it, Think about what Mutalisks let you do, Speedlings can fill that role in ZvZ too especially on big maps where your speedling dominance will make it hard for your opponent to scout.
these are all criticisms of the thread, not the build. Pure speedling is a solid way to play and this guide accurately describes how to get there and what to expect. you don't have to all-in all the time every game though.
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This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them.
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On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them.
You must not have watched the replays I provided, as the games show clear victories against to players using all the styles you mentioned. Roach first cannot efficiently hold an expansion against massling, you should research the power of the mass zergling style because it's really much stronger than you're giving credit for.
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On November 11 2011 22:23 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them. You must not have watched the replays I provided, as the games show clear victories against to players using all the styles you mentioned. Roach first cannot efficiently hold an expansion against massling, you should research the power of the mass zergling style because it's really much stronger than you're giving credit for.
No, you actually didn't address any of that, which is why I brought it up as warning for anyone who takes you seriously. 10 pool will always have faster speed and a faster inject of lings, as well as the potential for very fast banelings, all of which are very bad for a 14/14 mass speedling build. With good micro and scouting a roach expand build will always hold mass speedlings, especially a build that doesn't use +1 melee upgrade. If they also have banelings you will actually just die as well. This plague on the strategy forum gets tiresome... Not at all innovative or even relevant anymore, it is just self promotion.
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On November 11 2011 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 22:23 TangSC wrote:On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them. You must not have watched the replays I provided, as the games show clear victories against to players using all the styles you mentioned. Roach first cannot efficiently hold an expansion against massling, you should research the power of the mass zergling style because it's really much stronger than you're giving credit for. No, you actually didn't address any of that, which is why I brought it up as warning for anyone who takes you seriously. 10 pool will always have faster speed and a faster inject of lings, as well as the potential for very fast banelings, all of which are very bad for a 14/14 mass speedling build. With good micro and scouting a roach expand build will always hold mass speedlings, especially a build that doesn't use +1 melee upgrade. If they also have banelings you will actually just die as well. This plague on the strategy forum gets tiresome... Not at all innovative or even relevant anymore, it is just self promotion.
I disagree, mass-ling is an incredibly effective opening, and the way you describe it simply isn't true. The build takes map control, holds off all early types of cheese, and gives you a solid chance to win the game outright in the early stages. Furthermore, it sets you up with a strong economic base with full 1base saturation and 2 queens, to transition you simply need to squeeze out a few drones while pressuring with your lings and refill the gas. It's a highly effective style of play, as shown in the provided replays. There simply isn't a none-baneling opening that can engage evenly against this style. When executed optimally, you can win the vast majority of your ZvZ as it's not only aggressive, but safe.
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On October 13 2011 01:24 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening. Well him being skilled certainly doesn't show through his openings... Also a speedling expand straight up loses to a 14 gas 14 pool ling bling, and doesn't beat a 15 hatch so your own build is not the best either.
This is blatantly and ridiculously wrong.
Speedling expand (obviously) gets speed at same time as a 14/14 ling/bling all in, and the bane nest isn't far behind.
That's kindof the point of a speedling expand.
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On November 12 2011 01:42 Flexx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:24 solidbebe wrote:On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening. Well him being skilled certainly doesn't show through his openings... Also a speedling expand straight up loses to a 14 gas 14 pool ling bling, and doesn't beat a 15 hatch so your own build is not the best either. This is blatantly and ridiculously wrong. Speedling expand (obviously) gets speed at same time as a 14/14 ling/bling all in, and the bane nest isn't far behind. That's kindof the point of a speedling expand.
Yes if you want, you can always get baneling nest of your own - it's just not my style. 14/14 Speedling/Baneling 1base all in does NOT auto-kill a speedling expand, there are many replays of my zvz where skilled players open that build and do virtually no damage because I make queens and spines to defend and counter-attack their vulnerable bases. This style is designed to crush 1base all-ins.
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nice BO it worked out quite well for me (high Master here). i love especially all the mapcontrol and flexibility u gain from this build. allthough i would recommend building a spine at 4min if enemys 1basing (as you mentioned), but furthermore build a spine at 5min mark if he has expandet, because ling bling shit is nearly impossible to hold without a queen and a spine at the ramp - but with that u can counterattack really well. if the enemy plays defensive himself, i just tech up to fast mutas 
EDIT:
but what do you do against speedling builds with fewer drones that hit u before u reach a high enough mass of lings? yes if theres a ramp its not that of a problem, but on taldarim i had 0 chance buying any time to get a bit more larva.
the build i mentioned is the following:
13Gas
12Pool
-> mass lings
i maybe just died because i figured it out too late, because i droned up to 16 which was obviously a mistake. but even if u dont, there is a timing were your enemy has more lings than you in early game :/ its kinda hard though because he even had enough money for a relatively fast expansion (at around 4min mark), so you usually feel save droning up to 16.
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I love you and your tactic I started using it in ZvZ and I got promoted to diamond after 5 games :D!!!
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On November 13 2011 20:08 doggy wrote:
but what do you do against speedling builds with fewer drones that hit u before u reach a high enough mass of lings? yes if theres a ramp its not that of a problem, but on taldarim i had 0 chance buying any time to get a bit more larva.
the build i mentioned is the following:
13Gas
12Pool
-> mass lings
Just pull back and keep your lings with your queens and build nothing but lings none-stop. It's tough but you should have enough slow-lings and reinforcing lings to hold off until you get your speed. Then, you have 2 hatcheries against one and hopefully your queens are still alive. Even if you lose them, though, if you rebuild one you will have more ling production in the long-run.
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did anyone notice that in the game vs sheth they both do the EXACT same build? clearly this isn't just some gimmicky thing that only tang does
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On November 21 2011 14:15 Twelve12 wrote:
did anyone notice that in the game vs sheth they both do the EXACT same build? clearly this isn't just some gimmicky thing that only tang does
Sheth and I actually played earlier that day, and he watched the replay and analyzed my build - then stole it and used it against me in that game ^_^
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Hi tang!
1. you probably make the best Zerg guides ever! I really really like them, I really learn a lot. I'm a master protoss player but decided to get master with zerg aswell and I had HUGE struggle with ZvZ. So I read in deph your guide so I'll do your strat on ladder and see how it goes  because I tried macro style but I died to early lings/banes timings and stuff like that.
2. Just to let you know, you have a replay on the list that his a ZvT and completly different strat  lol. The game is Versus Sushi.
Thanks again Tang! keep up the good work , you help the community A LOT !
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Thanks Shookone If you're master, I actually recommend doing a later gas build. In particular I really like 15pool 16gas 16hatch 16queen
18/18 Overlord
3xSet of lings when ovy comes out, then 2nd queen and another overlord and mass lings. You'll find after your first injection if you send your first queen to your expansion the spits will line up and you'll have exactly 16 drones mining 2 per patch at your main and speed will finish by 6:00 at which point you begin that relentless ling aggression. If they cheese you, cancel the hatch and build 2-3 spine crawlers immediately and use drone micro. You can delay your 2nd overlord a bit in the event a player goes for an early pool.
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I just got masters with ZvZ being my best matchup. Thanks for the really fun build Tang.
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Thanks a lot Tang for the tips !
By the way, what if the guy went for the baneling on 1base into expansion. Do I just try to counter him and put a spine at my main to be safe and split drones if he comes with his banelings and try to kill banelings with lings when the opportunity comes?
Cause I'm able to defend it easy, but I don't know how to transition it.
Can I make a roach ling allin or something like that? If so how many drones etc.. ? Or +1 roach attack?
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On November 28 2011 10:15 Shookone wrote:Thanks a lot Tang for the tips ! By the way, what if the guy went for the baneling on 1base into expansion. Do I just try to counter him and put a spine at my main to be safe and split drones if he comes with his banelings and try to kill banelings with lings when the opportunity comes? Cause I'm able to defend it easy, but I don't know how to transition it. Can I make a roach ling allin or something like that? If so how many drones etc.. ? Or +1 roach attack?
Usually what I do is block the ramp with 2 queens and then do a counter attack. Make sure to be ready to counter attack always. It is critical to macro perfectly or the counter wont have enough lings to be successful. If you do enough damage, get 2 spines at your expansion and drone up. I usually just go 3 base mass +1 speedroaches after that.
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On November 28 2011 10:21 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 10:15 Shookone wrote:Thanks a lot Tang for the tips ! By the way, what if the guy went for the baneling on 1base into expansion. Do I just try to counter him and put a spine at my main to be safe and split drones if he comes with his banelings and try to kill banelings with lings when the opportunity comes? Cause I'm able to defend it easy, but I don't know how to transition it. Can I make a roach ling allin or something like that? If so how many drones etc.. ? Or +1 roach attack? Usually what I do is block the ramp with 2 queens and then do a counter attack. Make sure to be ready to counter attack always. It is critical to macro perfectly or the counter wont have enough lings to be successful. If you do enough damage, get 2 spines at your expansion and drone up. I usually just go 3 base mass +1 speedroaches after that.
Blocking off the ramp with 2 queens, getting a spine at your expansion, AND going either mass-ling or mass ling/baneling. That's how this style should be dealt with, followed by a nice ling/baneling or mass ling counter attack. I actually lose more often to muta transitions than I do 3base roach.
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On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them.
For some reason, a lot of people think this build auto-loses to early speedling pushes like a 10 or 11pool with gas. With good micro, though, you should be able to hold with a 14/14 expand quite easily. Here is a replay of a game where I go an even more economic build (15pool 16gas 16hatch) and still hold off an early speedling all-in:
http://drop.sc/65903
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Hello I am a sliver zerg from SEA server. I used to do your build and it worked out really well for me at first. But as i went up the leagues, i started to lose to players doing ling bling due to poor micro. Then i switched to ling bling and had a 40% win rate. now however, i started using a variation of your build. the BO is:
9 ovie
12 pool
14 gas (pull drones off gas at 100)
16 ovie
16 queen
drone to 19
once you have 100 gas, pull drones off gas, get speed and get your expansion
start mass producing lings
once your nat is done, get queen
Attack once your speed is done which is about 5 mins into the game
continue to reinforce and win.
Pros
Since the attack happens so early into the game, banelings and roaches are unlikely to have come out and if they have come out already, only a few would be there.
Cons
It is very allin and if you fail to do damage, you will probs lose the game (I think)
However, since your build also ends up with the same tech and buildings after the attack, i think it is as allin as your build.
What do you think and how can i improve this build.
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How do you defend against a 1 base roach baneling?
or
1 base, burrow roach & a bane or two.
with ovvies spread around the base, you can deny most ovvie scouting unless you send 2 at a time, (and lose both), so you may even think he's going 1 base muta.
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Hello, Tang. I'm a Platinum-level Random player and I roll ZvZ a lot more than I would like to. I have one build I sometimes use that is very similar to yours, but instead I 15Hatch/15Pool/15Gas into it, and I usually have 24 Zerglings with Metabolic Boost pounding the front door at about 5:00, around the time where most Zergs in ZvZ have thrown down an expansion and are right at that point starting to feel the impact 300 less minerals has on their early army. How aggressive is your rush, i.e. how many Zerglings do you usually have knocking on the front door and when do you attack?
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On December 02 2011 23:12 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
How do you defend against a 1 base roach baneling?
or
1 base, burrow roach & a bane or two.
with ovvies spread around the base, you can deny most ovvie scouting unless you send 2 at a time, (and lose both), so you may even think he's going 1 base muta.
With proper execution, it's pretty hard to lose to any 1base play. A big ground push will just come too late and you can hold easily with spine/ling and eventual roach (or just counter-attack with lings and win a base race). If my opponent doesn't attack me and stays on one base, I usually just get a lair pretty quickly after the necessary defenses. Then I could with an overseer or an overlord and respond accordingly to what I see.
If he doesn't have a lair and he's just massing ling/bane/roach on one base I'll defend with 2base roach/ling/spine.
If he has a spire, I'll get queens and spores and counter attack with roach/ling when he moves out.
If he has a roach warren and lair, I'll go roaches with overseer and defend his all-in or deny his expansion once I get speed and +1 ranged attack.
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On December 02 2011 22:30 Spocria wrote:
Hello I am a sliver zerg from SEA server. I used to do your build and it worked out really well for me at first. But as i went up the leagues, i started to lose to players doing ling bling due to poor micro. Then i switched to ling bling and had a 40% win rate. now however, i started using a variation of your build. the BO is:
9 ovie
12 pool
14 gas (pull drones off gas at 100)
16 ovie
16 queen
drone to 19
once you have 100 gas, pull drones off gas, get speed and get your expansion
start mass producing lings
once your nat is done, get queen
Attack once your speed is done which is about 5 mins into the game
continue to reinforce and win.
Pros
Since the attack happens so early into the game, banelings and roaches are unlikely to have come out and if they have come out already, only a few would be there.
Cons
It is very allin and if you fail to do damage, you will probs lose the game (I think)
However, since your build also ends up with the same tech and buildings after the attack, i think it is as allin as your build.
What do you think and how can i improve this build.
I think 13pool, 12gas, drone to 14, queen 3xLings (Extractor trick to get 19/18) and then expand is a better option than your build. Neither build is all-in, as long as you're able to know the correct times to make some drones and transition.
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On December 02 2011 23:48 Xarayezona wrote:
Hello, Tang. I'm a Platinum-level Random player and I roll ZvZ a lot more than I would like to. I have one build I sometimes use that is very similar to yours, but instead I 15Hatch/15Pool/15Gas into it, and I usually have 24 Zerglings with Metabolic Boost pounding the front door at about 5:00, around the time where most Zergs in ZvZ have thrown down an expansion and are right at that point starting to feel the impact 300 less minerals has on their early army. How aggressive is your rush, i.e. how many Zerglings do you usually have knocking on the front door and when do you attack?
I don't think you can have 24 lings with metabolic boost at 5minutes with a hatch first, you'd need to do like a 13pool or 14/14 to get that many. You can do a 5minute push with 14/14 like I mention in this thread, but if you do 15pool, 16gas, 16expand, 16queen (no lings yet) 18overlord
3xlings when overlord is done, 2nd queen right after first queen (first queen transfered to expansion after one spit) and then mass lings off 2 queen 2 hatch til 42 supply. (44 lings with speed just finishing at 6minutes). I may do a post comparing all the different zergling openings in ZvZ.
At 42 supply when you push out with lings, you can drone up or reinforce with lings. You can refill gas and go for warren or bane nest (or both), but your first push should end most games or at least cripple your opponent.
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Thank you! I suck at zvz atm so this build let's me to take the iniative (or is it iniatitive can't spell lol). Any way used slighty modified version with leaving one drone on gas for late banelings. Replay here http://drop.sc/86339. I'm low level and with actually microing and not failing so bad it would have been gg way sooner. Do you think leaving one drone on gas is sloppy play or just adding flexibility to the build?
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On January 08 2012 05:05 ilju wrote:Thank you! I suck at zvz atm so this build let's me to take the iniative (or is it iniatitive can't spell lol). Any way used slighty modified version with leaving one drone on gas for late banelings. Replay here http://drop.sc/86339. I'm low level and with actually microing and not failing so bad it would have been gg way sooner. Do you think leaving one drone on gas is sloppy play or just adding flexibility to the build?
Nothing wrong at all with leaving 1 drone in gas, ilju. I get exactly 16 drones mining my minerals to emphasize the importance of the 2 per patch saturation but you can definitely leave one in gas and transfer 2 more over later to go banelings.
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i can't see the video "how to deal with 14/14 baneling all in".. i like a lot this style but i have serious problems vs baneling all inn.. for sure i have to improve my micro but what i m trying to do is close the ramp with 2 queens and a spine behind them but there's no way i can save my expansion because of his baneling/lings.. is there the possbility to see that tutorial?
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On February 08 2012 22:00 Tribuno wrote:
i can't see the video "how to deal with 14/14 baneling all in".. i like a lot this style but i have serious problems vs baneling all inn.. for sure i have to improve my micro but what i m trying to do is close the ramp with 2 queens and a spine behind them but there's no way i can save my expansion because of his baneling/lings.. is there the possbility to see that tutorial?
Yeah my co-caster removed all videos from youtube when he quit sc2 =/
I'm working on an updated ZvZ guide, with stream tutorials and more replays. I'll make sure one of the tutorials is on holding the 1base baneling busts.
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Hi Tang, I am a high masters Zerg player. I feel Z v Z is a matchup many zerg players have explored themselves with many unique takes on the mu. I think some of the reactions are a bit biased, for hatch first and 14/14 bane-ling all in. Much of Z v Z i feel comes down not to builds but to tactics. For instance, a 14/14 baneling all in is much more powerful if you simply split pairs of lings to separate corners of the base while running your first bane lings in. Also, if he splits his drones, you simply camp the mineral line with the bane lings and pick the drones off with lings, and do damage by delaying mining time rather than killing drones. this build will leave you behind against a proper hatch first defence, and a proper 14/14 baneling all in if both builds are played optimally.
Playing Hatch first vs speedling all in's I have found it pretty easy on most maps to wall off my ramp and get up a spine or two, making mostly lings till i have speed up while safetly transitioning into baneling tech. Despite a screw up from the hatch first player he should come out ahead. However, the hatch first player has more chances to make a mistake and get behind rather than the player executing the build.
14/14 baneling all in's should do quite well against this with proper execution. The key to countering good drone splitting is keeping your banes alive and delaying mining time as long as possible. at this timing your build is very vunerable, but good micro can swing this in either favor.
From my Z v Z experience I think There would be some timings opening up if you got a few more drones and optimized this build to include maybe 3 roaches to snipe bane lings while abusing your superior ling count.As a transition i could see a good timing for that against hatch first bane ling builds, with minimal spines.
I have experimented with mass ling and mass ling bane styles, Which Mostly revolved around +1 timing attacks.
One build was a 1-1 ling bane timing attack with 2 bases and a macro hatch. The hypothesis was 1-1 lings can crush roach ling all ins. Also ling/bane timings work out to be right at the point where the opponent may be teching heavily to lair tech of some sort. Which was fun because your tech pays off faster. I found that the timing attack was too easy to stop with proper preparation time, and simply good bane ling micro, 2 banes can kill alot of clumped banes fairly easily, so in conjunction with spines it can be hard to neutralize enemy banes before they kill yours. It was really good at defending roach ling all ins or killing players without a baneling nest. Even the earlier all ins, if you held while upgrading, you could usually kill them off easily once your upgrades kicked in. I abandoned the build because I found the spinewall, + ling bane situation a bit hard to deal with and very all inish because if it failed you were so behind in tech.
I tried the early +1 speeding expand which was alright, but felt simply too early to get +1. It was too easy to just get punished for an early tech advancement. Banelings give results of that gas spent faster, but take more gas in the long run. It was also easy to lose a macro lead to a hatch first with proper defence, (+1 is nice, but fairly useless against queen walls and spines.)
I think your hyper aggressive styles are very good though, because
1. They can be easily optimally executed to gain you an advantage earlier on rather than an optimized macro build which would require more time equally well executed to yield optimal results.
2. they are easier to execute than defend mostly, with maybe the exception of pure ling vs ling bane micro early game vs hatch first ling bane and 14/14 ling bane.
3. They simply force your opponent to have more chances and decisions that could cost him the game than you do.
4. Because of the above, a weaker player will beat stronger players more on average due to the increased required amount of correct decisions in order to defend.
5. I think that most players throughout the z v z metagame do not drone in a good risk vs reward ratio. Many weaker players are not comfortable with a slight marginal lead and tend to either all in or drone a bit greedily. Most players are not comfortable with remaining aggressive while droning with the correct army vs economy ratio for that situation.
6. I like speedlings and speedling build because with such a mobile unit, the opportunity to punish an enemy positional blunder is directly proportion to the movement speed of your army. So simply having a lot of speed lings out on the map that can that have more opportunities to punish the enemy is usually a good thing.
7. the earlier you put pressure on your opponent the less responses he has possible, so you can force the game into a decision tree of possibilities which you are more familiar with than your opponent, where you can possibly gain small advantages.
8. With early aggression builds like this you also gain map control and can deny information which can simultaneously force your opponent to over prepare for your aggression. What do you think about the idea of building a third queen with the sole purpose of walking along the attack path clearing overlords, after all its so easy to lose a z v z when you are blind? Worth it? timed out? I don't know
My philosophy with sc2 and aggression is that "A mistake unpunished is a corner cut and and can turn into an advantage later." I mean the only real way for good players to take advantage of bad players is to punish their mistakes?
Overall a great guide with great replays. I'd like to see some more intermediate timed z v z builds from you, maybe with some cool upgrade timings and gas timings to go with it.
Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, was bored between classes.
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On February 09 2012 00:30 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:00 Tribuno wrote:
i can't see the video "how to deal with 14/14 baneling all in".. i like a lot this style but i have serious problems vs baneling all inn.. for sure i have to improve my micro but what i m trying to do is close the ramp with 2 queens and a spine behind them but there's no way i can save my expansion because of his baneling/lings.. is there the possbility to see that tutorial? Yeah my co-caster removed all videos from youtube when he quit sc2 =/ I'm working on an updated ZvZ guide, with stream tutorials and more replays. I'll make sure one of the tutorials is on holding the 1base baneling busts.
thanks a lot, i appreciate your guide and tutorial! I will wait for the tutorial
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I understand the logic in teaching/encouraging aggressive playstyles for zergs learning the game, but I would say that in ZvZ especially, aggressive playstyles shouldn't work. I understand that a lot of people make mistakes and the aggressive play ends up working, but you're just not going to lose if you have good ling/bane control and play defensively and squeeze a few more drones out.That being said, a big part of ZvZ is pressuring at appropriate times to keep your opponent honest and use your map control to drone, wouldn't you say a better learning experience for upcoming zerg players would be 14/14 ling/bane and adapting to the situation (pressuring greedy players and playing defensive against aggressive players)?
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Hey Tang I just wanted to thank you for this strategy. My ZvZ [although im gold so it really doesn't matter] has gotten so much better. I no long have to guess when to drone or make units, I just make units and crush them! Really awesome thanks so much.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/618qz.jpg)
