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On November 08 2011 14:53 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 14:34 chingchong99 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:42 Karellen wrote:
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game. Instead of "learning" from Tang, wouldnt it be nicer to actually be good at this game? Cheese and all-ins have everything to do with this game as much as a macro game does. SC2 is a dynamic game that's great because it's not always some long macro. Go look at the most recent sen/naniwa game in the ipl4 qualifiers. Sen was pretty cheesy (not going into details to avoid spoilers), but you get the idea. Great games aren't always macro. It only really gets annoying when you get the kids who go random time and time again just to use the cheese for whatever race they choose, best part about that is that when their cheese fails you pretty much auto win.
Why do all the bad players attempt to defend Tang with this logic? He's not advertising this as a guide for cheese; he's advertising this as a guide for high-level aggressive play. It's not - this is the kind of shit I experienced in Platinum league. It's in no way safe aggression; it's an allin hinging on the fact that he has made pure roach with no spines or simply no units at all. Any kind of baneling play immediately shuts this down; any kind of hatch first mass ling shuts this down; any kind of hatch first ling bling shuts it down...hell, even a onebase +1 roach allin would beat this (which is saying a lot because one base roach sucks against speedling openers).
More importantly, while it's important to know cheese for tournament play, just cheesing on ladder won't make you any better, and even more importantly, there's a distinction between knowing how to cheese and cheesing nearly every game (as Tang does).
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On November 08 2011 14:58 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 14:53 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 08 2011 14:34 chingchong99 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:42 Karellen wrote:
I have started implementing this as my sole strategy in ZvZ already. I learned this build from one of Tang's students, and this build is INSANELY strong at least at a high diamond level. The only build that I feel comes out significantly ahead is a 14 pool 14 gas baneling expand with delayed zergling speed. I have not faced anyone that has come out ahead when they go 15 hatch into roaches, but with a 15 hatch 15 pool 14 gas -> defensive banelings + a spine and a queen immediately when pool/hatch finishes, with almost PERFECT micro.
Tldr: great build that at least comes out even vs almost anything but a baneling expand. You almost always need less micro than them too. Has high chance of immediately ending the game. Instead of "learning" from Tang, wouldnt it be nicer to actually be good at this game? Cheese and all-ins have everything to do with this game as much as a macro game does. SC2 is a dynamic game that's great because it's not always some long macro. Go look at the most recent sen/naniwa game in the ipl4 qualifiers. Sen was pretty cheesy (not going into details to avoid spoilers), but you get the idea. Great games aren't always macro. It only really gets annoying when you get the kids who go random time and time again just to use the cheese for whatever race they choose, best part about that is that when their cheese fails you pretty much auto win. Why do all the bad players attempt to defend Tang with this logic? He's not advertising this as a guide for cheese; he's advertising this as a guide for high-level aggressive play. It's not - this is the kind of shit I experienced in Platinum league. It's in no way safe aggression; it's an allin hinging on the fact that he has made pure roach with no spines or simply no units at all. Any kind of baneling play immediately shuts this down; any kind of hatch first mass ling shuts this down; any kind of hatch first ling bling shuts it down...hell, even a onebase +1 roach allin would beat this (which is saying a lot because one base roach sucks against speedling openers). More importantly, while it's important to know cheese for tournament play, just cheesing on ladder won't make you any better, and even more importantly, there's a distinction between knowing how to cheese and cheesing nearly every game (as Tang does).
I think executing timing attacks and all-in builds are actually a fantastic way to win games AND learn SC2. I'm not talking about blind cheese, in fact I argue against Blind cheese as an overall weak play style not particularly useful for those trying to improve. Executing aggressive timing attacks, like the ones I showcase in my ZvZ replays in the OP, are the best way to improve win rate and mechanics.
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I've started seeing this opening more in my ZvZ games, and I have to say, what TangSC says regarding the hatch first ling/bane defense seems right in my experience. I am HAPPY to see this build because it's pretty easy to defend extremely efficiently with banes and a spine or two (again, this is hatch first). But you do have to realize it's happening. I think it's easy to get overwhelmed if you don't take the threat seriously enough.
I've been going straight for mutas once my defense seems solid and that has been very effective.
So I think this is weak against a properly executed hatch first into banes.
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On November 10 2011 04:03 OldManZerg wrote:
I've started seeing this opening more in my ZvZ games, and I have to say, what TangSC says regarding the hatch first ling/bane defense seems right in my experience. I am HAPPY to see this build because it's pretty easy to defend extremely efficiently with banes and a spine or two (again, this is hatch first). But you do have to realize it's happening. I think it's easy to get overwhelmed if you don't take the threat seriously enough.
I've been going straight for mutas once my defense seems solid and that has been very effective.
So I think this is weak against a properly executed hatch first into banes.
Good points OldManZerg, hatch first into ling/bane/spine defense is definitely the hardest style to deal with with pure ling. It really comes down to the mass-ling player's micro/multitasking and their ability to transition at the correct stage in the game.
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Effective as hell there is a lot to learn from this type of agressive play, i am a macro zerg and i'm learning this new style and i fin it very agressive and you can do a lot of things after thet lolz
try it out
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On November 08 2011 10:22 lolcanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:33 Glexarn wrote:On November 08 2011 04:48 TangSC wrote:On November 08 2011 02:16 dicksonlam708 wrote:On October 12 2011 23:13 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This thread should be deleted, the OP is fabricating his credentials as he is not a Season 3 Grandmaster. Furthermore, there is widespread consensus amongst high level players on NA that OP has received account leveling. For the sake of the community, I believe that people shouldn't post guides claiming it to be high level play, because it's not - it's gimmick cheese that the OP justifies by his false credential of being a GM. i totally agree with this guy, i know tang and hes a terrible coach along with terrible player. he bm's all day on ladder. he only cheeses to get his points up, if you see his match history almost all his games are under 6 minutes. post is not high level play as well. Oh yea, btw. He is gm. But he pays people to leave games http://i.imgur.com/UKLXb.jpg http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n587/tang442244/?action=view¤t=DizonBlackmail.jpg Do you have any proof that dicksonlam708 is Dizon? Or, for that matter, any proof that Dizon isn't just a friend of yours posing for a picture? Furthermore, even if it's legitimate, this doesn't exonerate you - it merely also paints someone else negatively. My first post and I'm here to clear up the facts because I'm sick of the bull shit. 1. I am the source of this picture, not Dizon or anyone else. Tang did not pay me to leave the game, merely because I did not leave the game. Given what I know of Tang and his ethics, I already knew that I wouldn't have received anything had I left anyways. (the replay has not been uploaded, so I am the only possible holder of that replay, if evidence is needed). 2. If you watch any of Tang's replays, and actually think about his build order - it's all blind cheese, not reactive aggression like he calls it. And there's nothing fundamental wrong with it, but just because a llama vaguely resembles a horse, you don't call it a horse. 3. Call it hearsay, but the community of top level sc2 players is relatively small. The arguments are always the same - enter a chat channel and the good players are laughing away at Tang while the bronze-diamond always jump into his defense. Well, here are the reasons why we don't appreciate the guides: - We have good reason to believe you had your account leveled. Suspiciously different hotkey usage and even race changes, with several (yes, more than one) people claiming to have leveled your account. After you were unable to find a leveler following the GM reset, your winrate plummeted and you are barely winning 50%. Unfortunately, it's not just hearsay and rumors that are annoying either. - You are one of the only people to leverage your (ex) GM position, rather than actual skill, to benefit yourself financially, and this is probably what led to people investigating your account in the first place. You then used your position to claim to be a professional starcraft player, which may be believable to susceptible individuals who don't know better. - In the same way, these guides are also solely intended for you financial benefit, and not to help the SC2 community. I guess that's fine - but the worst part is that you decide to name these blatantly generic and common builds after yourself (with the exception of this post). As MANY people have pointed out - there's nothing new here, the innovation here isn't close to what iEchoic did, and even then it was pretty damn annoying. /endrant.
^totally agreed, admins should ban tang from teamliquid, all he is doing is uploading cheesy strats he wins against some gms to try to prove he is worth something when all it is, is garbage. All he is doing is advertising his website and his coaching services which he charges 20$/hr even to protoss and terran when he clearly DOES NOT PLAY THAT RACe.
it is obvious he is using this website as traffic tunnneler towards his website.
now that he is nearly exposed hes posting up some "helpful hints" without linking his website, then a few weeks down the road he will continue advertising his website.
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Wow, so much hate?
I personnaly like Tang's posts. They are clear, efficient, and more in depth than most of the other strategy posts. He offers new insights on how to play Zerg, but I guess here on TL, the regular poster only wants to stay alive at t1 for 10 minutes while saturating 4 bases... (you should look at david sirlin's page about the scrub)
I do not know anything about this account leveling, and honestly I don't care. His posts help me, and as I must not be the only one in this case, it helps the SC2 community in general.
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Am i the only one that thinks mass ling builds in zvz are common knowledge? not to mention if they 15 hatch and mass ling they will win from having more larvae.
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I'm pretty tired of these guides posted that claim insane winrates, like that "90%+ WIN RATE MOTHERSHIP BUILD!!!!!" yeah, that one lasted a long time, didn't it.
Another "Tang special" where he takes one of the oldest builds in the game and attaches his name and Season 3 rank (lol?) to the thread. I like how all his "Transitions" are into more all-ins, not one macro option even though you can take a third behind this and a 15hatch player can't do anything about it, rather than trying to just force your way through their roaches hoping they didn't make enough to block their ramp and defend their expo. Once you have that level of production and economy, there's a lot more you can do with it than go all-in and Tang would grow as a player to acknowledge and plan for these outcomes.
All that said, it's still a good, if not great, guide how to do a very nice 2base speedling opener. I just wish that
a) Tang wasn't such a try hard.. most people who make a lot of strat threads are more modest about their builds and their persona, and
b) The guide should set realistic expectations instead of claiming some specific rate of victory towards a build (as if the build has more influence than micro or macro), and
c) The guide should have a macro option instead of only encouraging people to do all-ins. You can be aggressive and drop hatcheries behind it, Think about what Mutalisks let you do, Speedlings can fill that role in ZvZ too especially on big maps where your speedling dominance will make it hard for your opponent to scout.
these are all criticisms of the thread, not the build. Pure speedling is a solid way to play and this guide accurately describes how to get there and what to expect. you don't have to all-in all the time every game though.
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This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them.
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On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them.
You must not have watched the replays I provided, as the games show clear victories against to players using all the styles you mentioned. Roach first cannot efficiently hold an expansion against massling, you should research the power of the mass zergling style because it's really much stronger than you're giving credit for.
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On November 11 2011 22:23 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them. You must not have watched the replays I provided, as the games show clear victories against to players using all the styles you mentioned. Roach first cannot efficiently hold an expansion against massling, you should research the power of the mass zergling style because it's really much stronger than you're giving credit for.
No, you actually didn't address any of that, which is why I brought it up as warning for anyone who takes you seriously. 10 pool will always have faster speed and a faster inject of lings, as well as the potential for very fast banelings, all of which are very bad for a 14/14 mass speedling build. With good micro and scouting a roach expand build will always hold mass speedlings, especially a build that doesn't use +1 melee upgrade. If they also have banelings you will actually just die as well. This plague on the strategy forum gets tiresome... Not at all innovative or even relevant anymore, it is just self promotion.
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On November 11 2011 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 22:23 TangSC wrote:On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them. You must not have watched the replays I provided, as the games show clear victories against to players using all the styles you mentioned. Roach first cannot efficiently hold an expansion against massling, you should research the power of the mass zergling style because it's really much stronger than you're giving credit for. No, you actually didn't address any of that, which is why I brought it up as warning for anyone who takes you seriously. 10 pool will always have faster speed and a faster inject of lings, as well as the potential for very fast banelings, all of which are very bad for a 14/14 mass speedling build. With good micro and scouting a roach expand build will always hold mass speedlings, especially a build that doesn't use +1 melee upgrade. If they also have banelings you will actually just die as well. This plague on the strategy forum gets tiresome... Not at all innovative or even relevant anymore, it is just self promotion.
I disagree, mass-ling is an incredibly effective opening, and the way you describe it simply isn't true. The build takes map control, holds off all early types of cheese, and gives you a solid chance to win the game outright in the early stages. Furthermore, it sets you up with a strong economic base with full 1base saturation and 2 queens, to transition you simply need to squeeze out a few drones while pressuring with your lings and refill the gas. It's a highly effective style of play, as shown in the provided replays. There simply isn't a none-baneling opening that can engage evenly against this style. When executed optimally, you can win the vast majority of your ZvZ as it's not only aggressive, but safe.
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On October 13 2011 01:24 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening. Well him being skilled certainly doesn't show through his openings... Also a speedling expand straight up loses to a 14 gas 14 pool ling bling, and doesn't beat a 15 hatch so your own build is not the best either.
This is blatantly and ridiculously wrong.
Speedling expand (obviously) gets speed at same time as a 14/14 ling/bling all in, and the bane nest isn't far behind.
That's kindof the point of a speedling expand.
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On November 12 2011 01:42 Flexx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:24 solidbebe wrote:On October 13 2011 01:21 TangSC wrote:On October 13 2011 01:14 solidbebe wrote:
Again you post a fancy guide of a widely known long used and at this point a pretty bad build. Also going 1 base roach ( what Ryze did in your video ) in ZvZ is just the epitomy of bad... Ryze is an incredibly skilled zerg and unless you're very high master or grand master, you're in no position to criticize his opening. Well him being skilled certainly doesn't show through his openings... Also a speedling expand straight up loses to a 14 gas 14 pool ling bling, and doesn't beat a 15 hatch so your own build is not the best either. This is blatantly and ridiculously wrong. Speedling expand (obviously) gets speed at same time as a 14/14 ling/bling all in, and the bane nest isn't far behind. That's kindof the point of a speedling expand.
Yes if you want, you can always get baneling nest of your own - it's just not my style. 14/14 Speedling/Baneling 1base all in does NOT auto-kill a speedling expand, there are many replays of my zvz where skilled players open that build and do virtually no damage because I make queens and spines to defend and counter-attack their vulnerable bases. This style is designed to crush 1base all-ins.
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nice BO it worked out quite well for me (high Master here). i love especially all the mapcontrol and flexibility u gain from this build. allthough i would recommend building a spine at 4min if enemys 1basing (as you mentioned), but furthermore build a spine at 5min mark if he has expandet, because ling bling shit is nearly impossible to hold without a queen and a spine at the ramp - but with that u can counterattack really well. if the enemy plays defensive himself, i just tech up to fast mutas 
EDIT:
but what do you do against speedling builds with fewer drones that hit u before u reach a high enough mass of lings? yes if theres a ramp its not that of a problem, but on taldarim i had 0 chance buying any time to get a bit more larva.
the build i mentioned is the following:
13Gas
12Pool
-> mass lings
i maybe just died because i figured it out too late, because i droned up to 16 which was obviously a mistake. but even if u dont, there is a timing were your enemy has more lings than you in early game :/ its kinda hard though because he even had enough money for a relatively fast expansion (at around 4min mark), so you usually feel save droning up to 16.
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I love you and your tactic I started using it in ZvZ and I got promoted to diamond after 5 games :D!!!
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On November 13 2011 20:08 doggy wrote:
but what do you do against speedling builds with fewer drones that hit u before u reach a high enough mass of lings? yes if theres a ramp its not that of a problem, but on taldarim i had 0 chance buying any time to get a bit more larva.
the build i mentioned is the following:
13Gas
12Pool
-> mass lings
Just pull back and keep your lings with your queens and build nothing but lings none-stop. It's tough but you should have enough slow-lings and reinforcing lings to hold off until you get your speed. Then, you have 2 hatcheries against one and hopefully your queens are still alive. Even if you lose them, though, if you rebuild one you will have more ling production in the long-run.
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did anyone notice that in the game vs sheth they both do the EXACT same build? clearly this isn't just some gimmicky thing that only tang does
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On November 21 2011 14:15 Twelve12 wrote:
did anyone notice that in the game vs sheth they both do the EXACT same build? clearly this isn't just some gimmicky thing that only tang does
Sheth and I actually played earlier that day, and he watched the replay and analyzed my build - then stole it and used it against me in that game ^_^
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EPT
