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Hi tang!
1. you probably make the best Zerg guides ever! I really really like them, I really learn a lot. I'm a master protoss player but decided to get master with zerg aswell and I had HUGE struggle with ZvZ. So I read in deph your guide so I'll do your strat on ladder and see how it goes  because I tried macro style but I died to early lings/banes timings and stuff like that.
2. Just to let you know, you have a replay on the list that his a ZvT and completly different strat  lol. The game is Versus Sushi.
Thanks again Tang! keep up the good work , you help the community A LOT !
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Thanks Shookone  If you're master, I actually recommend doing a later gas build. In particular I really like 15pool 16gas 16hatch 16queen
18/18 Overlord
3xSet of lings when ovy comes out, then 2nd queen and another overlord and mass lings. You'll find after your first injection if you send your first queen to your expansion the spits will line up and you'll have exactly 16 drones mining 2 per patch at your main and speed will finish by 6:00 at which point you begin that relentless ling aggression. If they cheese you, cancel the hatch and build 2-3 spine crawlers immediately and use drone micro. You can delay your 2nd overlord a bit in the event a player goes for an early pool.
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I just got masters with ZvZ being my best matchup. Thanks for the really fun build Tang.
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Thanks a lot Tang for the tips !
By the way, what if the guy went for the baneling on 1base into expansion. Do I just try to counter him and put a spine at my main to be safe and split drones if he comes with his banelings and try to kill banelings with lings when the opportunity comes?
Cause I'm able to defend it easy, but I don't know how to transition it.
Can I make a roach ling allin or something like that? If so how many drones etc.. ? Or +1 roach attack?
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On November 28 2011 10:15 Shookone wrote:Thanks a lot Tang for the tips ! By the way, what if the guy went for the baneling on 1base into expansion. Do I just try to counter him and put a spine at my main to be safe and split drones if he comes with his banelings and try to kill banelings with lings when the opportunity comes? Cause I'm able to defend it easy, but I don't know how to transition it. Can I make a roach ling allin or something like that? If so how many drones etc.. ? Or +1 roach attack?
Usually what I do is block the ramp with 2 queens and then do a counter attack. Make sure to be ready to counter attack always. It is critical to macro perfectly or the counter wont have enough lings to be successful. If you do enough damage, get 2 spines at your expansion and drone up. I usually just go 3 base mass +1 speedroaches after that.
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On November 28 2011 10:21 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 10:15 Shookone wrote:Thanks a lot Tang for the tips ! By the way, what if the guy went for the baneling on 1base into expansion. Do I just try to counter him and put a spine at my main to be safe and split drones if he comes with his banelings and try to kill banelings with lings when the opportunity comes? Cause I'm able to defend it easy, but I don't know how to transition it. Can I make a roach ling allin or something like that? If so how many drones etc.. ? Or +1 roach attack? Usually what I do is block the ramp with 2 queens and then do a counter attack. Make sure to be ready to counter attack always. It is critical to macro perfectly or the counter wont have enough lings to be successful. If you do enough damage, get 2 spines at your expansion and drone up. I usually just go 3 base mass +1 speedroaches after that.
Blocking off the ramp with 2 queens, getting a spine at your expansion, AND going either mass-ling or mass ling/baneling. That's how this style should be dealt with, followed by a nice ling/baneling or mass ling counter attack. I actually lose more often to muta transitions than I do 3base roach.
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On November 11 2011 15:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
This style is very vulnerable to 11g/10p and similar quick speedling builds, especially with banelings thrown in. If you are being aggressive before speed you will straight up lose because their speed finishes first, and if you skip banelings you will have to outmicro them by a lot to defend against their baneling attacks. I used to love to do this, but it is a very dim witted strategy to be honest and really doesn't hold up against players with good control and smart build orders.
Just to add to this, a roach opener can defend a ramp and an expansion easily even against 10 pool speedling all ins and +1 ling all ins, while a 14/14 speedling all in is simply a joke and not even worth talking about. If the roach player leaves his ramp unblocked or overextends with roaches out in the open you can get a free win, but again this all in is just plain bad. The damage is that the roach player ends up with a huge army advantage and can safely drone two bases while teching faster than you and that is just not where you want to be in a ZvZ - pretty much guaranteed loss to 2 hatch roach/muta or roach/infestor, or even a +2 roach timing even if you try to all in them.
For some reason, a lot of people think this build auto-loses to early speedling pushes like a 10 or 11pool with gas. With good micro, though, you should be able to hold with a 14/14 expand quite easily. Here is a replay of a game where I go an even more economic build (15pool 16gas 16hatch) and still hold off an early speedling all-in:
http://drop.sc/65903
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Hello I am a sliver zerg from SEA server. I used to do your build and it worked out really well for me at first. But as i went up the leagues, i started to lose to players doing ling bling due to poor micro. Then i switched to ling bling and had a 40% win rate. now however, i started using a variation of your build. the BO is:
9 ovie
12 pool
14 gas (pull drones off gas at 100)
16 ovie
16 queen
drone to 19
once you have 100 gas, pull drones off gas, get speed and get your expansion
start mass producing lings
once your nat is done, get queen
Attack once your speed is done which is about 5 mins into the game
continue to reinforce and win.
Pros
Since the attack happens so early into the game, banelings and roaches are unlikely to have come out and if they have come out already, only a few would be there.
Cons
It is very allin and if you fail to do damage, you will probs lose the game (I think)
However, since your build also ends up with the same tech and buildings after the attack, i think it is as allin as your build.
What do you think and how can i improve this build.
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How do you defend against a 1 base roach baneling?
or
1 base, burrow roach & a bane or two.
with ovvies spread around the base, you can deny most ovvie scouting unless you send 2 at a time, (and lose both), so you may even think he's going 1 base muta.
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Hello, Tang. I'm a Platinum-level Random player and I roll ZvZ a lot more than I would like to. I have one build I sometimes use that is very similar to yours, but instead I 15Hatch/15Pool/15Gas into it, and I usually have 24 Zerglings with Metabolic Boost pounding the front door at about 5:00, around the time where most Zergs in ZvZ have thrown down an expansion and are right at that point starting to feel the impact 300 less minerals has on their early army. How aggressive is your rush, i.e. how many Zerglings do you usually have knocking on the front door and when do you attack?
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On December 02 2011 23:12 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
How do you defend against a 1 base roach baneling?
or
1 base, burrow roach & a bane or two.
with ovvies spread around the base, you can deny most ovvie scouting unless you send 2 at a time, (and lose both), so you may even think he's going 1 base muta.
With proper execution, it's pretty hard to lose to any 1base play. A big ground push will just come too late and you can hold easily with spine/ling and eventual roach (or just counter-attack with lings and win a base race). If my opponent doesn't attack me and stays on one base, I usually just get a lair pretty quickly after the necessary defenses. Then I could with an overseer or an overlord and respond accordingly to what I see.
If he doesn't have a lair and he's just massing ling/bane/roach on one base I'll defend with 2base roach/ling/spine.
If he has a spire, I'll get queens and spores and counter attack with roach/ling when he moves out.
If he has a roach warren and lair, I'll go roaches with overseer and defend his all-in or deny his expansion once I get speed and +1 ranged attack.
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On December 02 2011 22:30 Spocria wrote:
Hello I am a sliver zerg from SEA server. I used to do your build and it worked out really well for me at first. But as i went up the leagues, i started to lose to players doing ling bling due to poor micro. Then i switched to ling bling and had a 40% win rate. now however, i started using a variation of your build. the BO is:
9 ovie
12 pool
14 gas (pull drones off gas at 100)
16 ovie
16 queen
drone to 19
once you have 100 gas, pull drones off gas, get speed and get your expansion
start mass producing lings
once your nat is done, get queen
Attack once your speed is done which is about 5 mins into the game
continue to reinforce and win.
Pros
Since the attack happens so early into the game, banelings and roaches are unlikely to have come out and if they have come out already, only a few would be there.
Cons
It is very allin and if you fail to do damage, you will probs lose the game (I think)
However, since your build also ends up with the same tech and buildings after the attack, i think it is as allin as your build.
What do you think and how can i improve this build.
I think 13pool, 12gas, drone to 14, queen 3xLings (Extractor trick to get 19/18) and then expand is a better option than your build. Neither build is all-in, as long as you're able to know the correct times to make some drones and transition.
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On December 02 2011 23:48 Xarayezona wrote:
Hello, Tang. I'm a Platinum-level Random player and I roll ZvZ a lot more than I would like to. I have one build I sometimes use that is very similar to yours, but instead I 15Hatch/15Pool/15Gas into it, and I usually have 24 Zerglings with Metabolic Boost pounding the front door at about 5:00, around the time where most Zergs in ZvZ have thrown down an expansion and are right at that point starting to feel the impact 300 less minerals has on their early army. How aggressive is your rush, i.e. how many Zerglings do you usually have knocking on the front door and when do you attack?
I don't think you can have 24 lings with metabolic boost at 5minutes with a hatch first, you'd need to do like a 13pool or 14/14 to get that many. You can do a 5minute push with 14/14 like I mention in this thread, but if you do 15pool, 16gas, 16expand, 16queen (no lings yet) 18overlord
3xlings when overlord is done, 2nd queen right after first queen (first queen transfered to expansion after one spit) and then mass lings off 2 queen 2 hatch til 42 supply. (44 lings with speed just finishing at 6minutes). I may do a post comparing all the different zergling openings in ZvZ.
At 42 supply when you push out with lings, you can drone up or reinforce with lings. You can refill gas and go for warren or bane nest (or both), but your first push should end most games or at least cripple your opponent.
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Thank you! I suck at zvz atm so this build let's me to take the iniative (or is it iniatitive can't spell lol). Any way used slighty modified version with leaving one drone on gas for late banelings. Replay here http://drop.sc/86339. I'm low level and with actually microing and not failing so bad it would have been gg way sooner. Do you think leaving one drone on gas is sloppy play or just adding flexibility to the build?
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On January 08 2012 05:05 ilju wrote:Thank you! I suck at zvz atm so this build let's me to take the iniative (or is it iniatitive can't spell lol). Any way used slighty modified version with leaving one drone on gas for late banelings. Replay here http://drop.sc/86339. I'm low level and with actually microing and not failing so bad it would have been gg way sooner. Do you think leaving one drone on gas is sloppy play or just adding flexibility to the build?
Nothing wrong at all with leaving 1 drone in gas, ilju. I get exactly 16 drones mining my minerals to emphasize the importance of the 2 per patch saturation but you can definitely leave one in gas and transfer 2 more over later to go banelings.
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i can't see the video "how to deal with 14/14 baneling all in".. i like a lot this style but i have serious problems vs baneling all inn.. for sure i have to improve my micro but what i m trying to do is close the ramp with 2 queens and a spine behind them but there's no way i can save my expansion because of his baneling/lings.. is there the possbility to see that tutorial?
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On February 08 2012 22:00 Tribuno wrote:
i can't see the video "how to deal with 14/14 baneling all in".. i like a lot this style but i have serious problems vs baneling all inn.. for sure i have to improve my micro but what i m trying to do is close the ramp with 2 queens and a spine behind them but there's no way i can save my expansion because of his baneling/lings.. is there the possbility to see that tutorial?
Yeah my co-caster removed all videos from youtube when he quit sc2 =/
I'm working on an updated ZvZ guide, with stream tutorials and more replays. I'll make sure one of the tutorials is on holding the 1base baneling busts.
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Hi Tang, I am a high masters Zerg player. I feel Z v Z is a matchup many zerg players have explored themselves with many unique takes on the mu. I think some of the reactions are a bit biased, for hatch first and 14/14 bane-ling all in. Much of Z v Z i feel comes down not to builds but to tactics. For instance, a 14/14 baneling all in is much more powerful if you simply split pairs of lings to separate corners of the base while running your first bane lings in. Also, if he splits his drones, you simply camp the mineral line with the bane lings and pick the drones off with lings, and do damage by delaying mining time rather than killing drones. this build will leave you behind against a proper hatch first defence, and a proper 14/14 baneling all in if both builds are played optimally.
Playing Hatch first vs speedling all in's I have found it pretty easy on most maps to wall off my ramp and get up a spine or two, making mostly lings till i have speed up while safetly transitioning into baneling tech. Despite a screw up from the hatch first player he should come out ahead. However, the hatch first player has more chances to make a mistake and get behind rather than the player executing the build.
14/14 baneling all in's should do quite well against this with proper execution. The key to countering good drone splitting is keeping your banes alive and delaying mining time as long as possible. at this timing your build is very vunerable, but good micro can swing this in either favor.
From my Z v Z experience I think There would be some timings opening up if you got a few more drones and optimized this build to include maybe 3 roaches to snipe bane lings while abusing your superior ling count.As a transition i could see a good timing for that against hatch first bane ling builds, with minimal spines.
I have experimented with mass ling and mass ling bane styles, Which Mostly revolved around +1 timing attacks.
One build was a 1-1 ling bane timing attack with 2 bases and a macro hatch. The hypothesis was 1-1 lings can crush roach ling all ins. Also ling/bane timings work out to be right at the point where the opponent may be teching heavily to lair tech of some sort. Which was fun because your tech pays off faster. I found that the timing attack was too easy to stop with proper preparation time, and simply good bane ling micro, 2 banes can kill alot of clumped banes fairly easily, so in conjunction with spines it can be hard to neutralize enemy banes before they kill yours. It was really good at defending roach ling all ins or killing players without a baneling nest. Even the earlier all ins, if you held while upgrading, you could usually kill them off easily once your upgrades kicked in. I abandoned the build because I found the spinewall, + ling bane situation a bit hard to deal with and very all inish because if it failed you were so behind in tech.
I tried the early +1 speeding expand which was alright, but felt simply too early to get +1. It was too easy to just get punished for an early tech advancement. Banelings give results of that gas spent faster, but take more gas in the long run. It was also easy to lose a macro lead to a hatch first with proper defence, (+1 is nice, but fairly useless against queen walls and spines.)
I think your hyper aggressive styles are very good though, because
1. They can be easily optimally executed to gain you an advantage earlier on rather than an optimized macro build which would require more time equally well executed to yield optimal results.
2. they are easier to execute than defend mostly, with maybe the exception of pure ling vs ling bane micro early game vs hatch first ling bane and 14/14 ling bane.
3. They simply force your opponent to have more chances and decisions that could cost him the game than you do.
4. Because of the above, a weaker player will beat stronger players more on average due to the increased required amount of correct decisions in order to defend.
5. I think that most players throughout the z v z metagame do not drone in a good risk vs reward ratio. Many weaker players are not comfortable with a slight marginal lead and tend to either all in or drone a bit greedily. Most players are not comfortable with remaining aggressive while droning with the correct army vs economy ratio for that situation.
6. I like speedlings and speedling build because with such a mobile unit, the opportunity to punish an enemy positional blunder is directly proportion to the movement speed of your army. So simply having a lot of speed lings out on the map that can that have more opportunities to punish the enemy is usually a good thing.
7. the earlier you put pressure on your opponent the less responses he has possible, so you can force the game into a decision tree of possibilities which you are more familiar with than your opponent, where you can possibly gain small advantages.
8. With early aggression builds like this you also gain map control and can deny information which can simultaneously force your opponent to over prepare for your aggression. What do you think about the idea of building a third queen with the sole purpose of walking along the attack path clearing overlords, after all its so easy to lose a z v z when you are blind? Worth it? timed out? I don't know
My philosophy with sc2 and aggression is that "A mistake unpunished is a corner cut and and can turn into an advantage later." I mean the only real way for good players to take advantage of bad players is to punish their mistakes?
Overall a great guide with great replays. I'd like to see some more intermediate timed z v z builds from you, maybe with some cool upgrade timings and gas timings to go with it.
Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, was bored between classes.
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On February 09 2012 00:30 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 22:00 Tribuno wrote:
i can't see the video "how to deal with 14/14 baneling all in".. i like a lot this style but i have serious problems vs baneling all inn.. for sure i have to improve my micro but what i m trying to do is close the ramp with 2 queens and a spine behind them but there's no way i can save my expansion because of his baneling/lings.. is there the possbility to see that tutorial? Yeah my co-caster removed all videos from youtube when he quit sc2 =/ I'm working on an updated ZvZ guide, with stream tutorials and more replays. I'll make sure one of the tutorials is on holding the 1base baneling busts.
thanks a lot, i appreciate your guide and tutorial! I will wait for the tutorial
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I understand the logic in teaching/encouraging aggressive playstyles for zergs learning the game, but I would say that in ZvZ especially, aggressive playstyles shouldn't work. I understand that a lot of people make mistakes and the aggressive play ends up working, but you're just not going to lose if you have good ling/bane control and play defensively and squeeze a few more drones out.That being said, a big part of ZvZ is pressuring at appropriate times to keep your opponent honest and use your map control to drone, wouldn't you say a better learning experience for upcoming zerg players would be 14/14 ling/bane and adapting to the situation (pressuring greedy players and playing defensive against aggressive players)?
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EPT
