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On October 16 2011 00:03 Excludos wrote:
I love the use of word "easily", especially as we're dealing with builds you don't see. You have to see the entierty of the base to be able to know for sure 100% that there aren't more gateways.
And it does. You will be ahead in tech when 1gate expanding compared to ffe, and thus you'll have archons just that little bit earlier. And since we're talking about "sniping" the mothership, it can only occur if the toss does a mistake (which is a long way from saying "impossible". Mistakes are easy), or when mothership doesn't have vortex and/or you don't have archons.
If you see a 5minish expo it's 1gate fe, if it's 5:48ish it's 3gate. Not exactly rocket science is it.
You won't have a tech advantage, both forge fe and 1gate fe get the starport around the 7min mark.
The only difference is that 1gate has more sentry energy.
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On October 16 2011 01:11 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 00:03 Excludos wrote:On October 15 2011 23:49 Arcanefrost wrote:On October 15 2011 23:18 Excludos wrote:On October 15 2011 17:20 Arcanefrost wrote:On October 15 2011 06:12 the p00n wrote:On October 15 2011 04:01 Arcanefrost wrote:
I heard hasuobs say this wasn't the way to go because if he scouts and gets fast corruptors it kills you, have you ever faced this? HasuObs does it off a FFE, so it doesn't matter what he says. Why not? It's the same idea and most zergs treat 1gate fe like ffe anyways. Not at all. When you expand with one or 3 gateways (a lot of the time, the zerg wont be able to know the difference), you have the ability to be, or at least threaten to be, agressive. When you ffe, your economy will shoot, but you wont have any units. If you rush for mothership after ffe, and zerg just kills it off with corrupters because you don't have archons (and you wont), then you're screwed. If you do a normal expand and he rushes for corrupters, you will have archons out in time to be able to flush them. I will say this though, corrupters is the best way to fight mothership, and there have been cases where I've just lost it because I wasn't careful enough. Sometimes thats a loss right there, other times I have won by simply rebuilding it (as my third is up, and he wont be able to take my third out right away since he spent so much resources on the corrupters). I have won vs several Gm players with this build, and a progamer. You can't say its not viable  I disagree. You can easily scout the difference between 1gate and 3gate. I doubt that vs macro oriented zergs 1gate fe will give your archon count that big of a boost. It's obviously viable if you can beat gm players with it, but I don't feel like this style will stay for a long time. If zergs start responding to mothership and vortex better this will be a lot less good, it's just not the way to go imo. But that's just my opinion, if you like it by all means keep doing it. I love the use of word "easily", especially as we're dealing with builds you don't see. You have to see the entierty of the base to be able to know for sure 100% that there aren't more gateways. And it does. You will be ahead in tech when 1gate expanding compared to ffe, and thus you'll have archons just that little bit earlier. And since we're talking about "sniping" the mothership, it can only occur if the toss does a mistake (which is a long way from saying "impossible". Mistakes are easy), or when mothership doesn't have vortex and/or you don't have archons. 1-gate expand is at ~5:10 and 3-gate expand is at ~6:00. A good Z will know the difference. Also, archon tech is limited by gas income, not by building time, so FFE will actually have archons a little faster. The advantage of 1-gate expand is that it limits Z's economy relative to what a FFE allows. 1-gate FE gets much faster WG tech, and you have the threat of a quick attack with 3 to 6 gates. Against FFE, Z can take a third before gas or any lings.
The amount of archons is limited by gas. The moment you receive archons is limited by tech time. The latter is longer if you go ffe than if you 1gate expo. If you do a ffe you'll have to worry about a lot of things before you can start teching to a T3 unit, mainly the point on how you're going to survive, while a 1gate expo generally just flows better into it. You can always argue that you can rush to archons, and it will be quicker with ffe, but you can't argue that you'll be safe doing so.
The last part I already mentioned, although with other words. You are entirely correct there 
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On October 16 2011 01:12 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 00:03 Excludos wrote:
I love the use of word "easily", especially as we're dealing with builds you don't see. You have to see the entierty of the base to be able to know for sure 100% that there aren't more gateways.
And it does. You will be ahead in tech when 1gate expanding compared to ffe, and thus you'll have archons just that little bit earlier. And since we're talking about "sniping" the mothership, it can only occur if the toss does a mistake (which is a long way from saying "impossible". Mistakes are easy), or when mothership doesn't have vortex and/or you don't have archons. If you see a 5minish expo it's 1gate fe, if it's 5:48ish it's 3gate. Not exactly rocket science is it. You won't have a tech advantage, both forge fe and 1gate fe get the starport around the 7min mark. The only difference is that 1gate has more sentry energy.
Yes, the zerg can also generally presume a 1gate expo when he sees the gateway being chronoed instead of the wg. However, you can't treat it like "oh, he's onegate expanding. He wont be attacking for a while", just like with 3gate expo. A zerg cannot take his third the same way he does with a ffe.
edit: I'll also add this, which is a response to my own post a bit earlier stating a zerg often times wont know the difference. The reason is that in my experience a expo never goes down exactly when you want it to. Sure, if the zerg doesn't bother being aggressive, its going to go down at 5:10. A lot of the time, you need one extra sentry before you can put it down, and its delayed. Likewise with a 3gate expo, often times you expand a bit earlier than usual, simply because you know the zerg doesn't have any plans on attacking.
It varies a lot by game to game. And as a zerg player, a lot of the time you don't know for certain whetever its one or 3 gates, and you can't 100% rule out a possible attack.
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The point was that 1gate fe doesn't have that big an impact on hasu's statement to completely neglect it, I don't know why wer'e argueing over these silly things.
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On October 16 2011 02:53 Arcanefrost wrote:
The point was that 1gate fe doesn't have that big an impact on hasu's statement to completely neglect it, I don't know why wer'e argueing over these silly things.
You can get nearly twice the amount of corruptors against FFE due to FFE giving the zerg a free 3rd, which is why it doesn't matter what hasuobs says because even though he's roughly doing the same build, he gives the zerg the ability to drone up on 3 bases with a delayed gas.
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What do you do against a big roach hydra +2 attack on 2 bases? It hits me just as I begin to warp in archons and a lot of chargelots, and right as my +2 is finishing. The games start out in my favor, I deny the third and get map control and see everything going on. But I don't seem to have enough to deal with his army (especially since roaches tank a LOT of damage). I feel like there is some method of using forcefields and vortex to split the army that I am neglecting? Or maybe I need to add in some more void rays? Here are a few replays to show what I'm talking about:
http://drop.sc/44880
http://drop.sc/44881
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You should use forcefields to buy time, mostly - you have about 16 saved up, that's a lot of extra time for Archons.
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can someone upload some replays on dealing with banelings? in the midgame especially, I just dont seem to have enough units to handle them + the drops at the same time
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On October 16 2011 19:51 DropTester wrote:
can someone upload some replays on dealing with banelings? in the midgame especially, I just dont seem to have enough units to handle them + the drops at the same time
The drops can be a pain. Luckily, you have that starport just sitting there, not really being used. Make a couple extra phoenixes, and put them on patrol next to your bases. This way you at least get a warning when one is nearing your base, giving you time to move your probes. If you see it early enough, you can even kill it off.
Banelings vs me straight up midgame has never been a problem. You should have 7-9 sentries with you the entire time, and archons generally annihilate banelings when they're out on the field. Funnily enough, its a lot bigger problem lategame. This due to the fact that he can have so many blings that you'll be having a hard time using vortex to your favor. Storm is your friend here
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-237113.jpg)
I don't think you should pay too much attention to everything I'm doing in this replay. A lot of it was just plain stupid. Things to note: Get a canon behind each mineral line. This way he can't just park his blings behind it and stop you from mining for minutes. Secondly, my attack was my worst executed attack ever, I should have just taken a fourth instead and waited for him to attack me. Get observers earlier, and get storm.
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On October 02 2011 12:30 the p00n wrote:
My handle is HUARGH and I play at the grandmaster level.
Could you elaborate on how someone who has never been in grandmaster league play at the grandmaster level?
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I have been using this awesome build for some time now, with good success in mid-master ladder.
However there seems to be a window of weakness before we can reach a critical number of archons, so the time between 11:00 and 13:00 is very scary.
Do you feel the same or am I just doing it wrong ? :D
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On October 17 2011 01:05 buldermar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 12:30 the p00n wrote:
My handle is HUARGH and I play at the grandmaster level.
Could you elaborate on how someone who has never been in grandmaster league play at the grandmaster level?
If you had bothered to read the first page, you'd find out He was in gm, but got demoted before season end because of inactivity.
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On October 16 2011 19:51 DropTester wrote:
can someone upload some replays on dealing with banelings? in the midgame especially, I just dont seem to have enough units to handle them + the drops at the same time
Download the replay vs. glsnute in the OP, he used baneling drops.
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Quite an interesting build. I've been analyzing your replays and am just about ready to put it to the test. I'll update with how well it goes, but none the less im excited to try it out. Thanks!
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On October 17 2011 02:48 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 01:05 buldermar wrote:On October 02 2011 12:30 the p00n wrote:
My handle is HUARGH and I play at the grandmaster level.
Could you elaborate on how someone who has never been in grandmaster league play at the grandmaster level? If you had bothered to read the first page, you'd find out He was in gm, but got demoted before season end because of inactivity.
If you had bothered to use your brain, you'd find out that he was never in GM, therefore also never getting demoted due to inactivity or for any other reason *smiley that blinks*.
Firstly, I've had him on my friendslist (the one that shows real name) since season 1. He was never in GM, and would most certainly brag about if it he was. Furthermore, I know he has been trying to get into GM unsuccesfully several times.
Secondly, the question was pointed at him, as in "could you elaborate" rather than "could someone elaborate".
Finally, I'd definitely argue that "playing at the grandmaster level" is a phrase that, with no further elaboration, suggests being in GM league. However, seing that he never was in GM league, it's an outright lie, which is relevant for the situation as it increases perceived reliability and therefore negating possible skepticism about the strategy; "Well, he's GM, so he probably know better... 90% winrate in GM league, it must be really strong (as opposed to if it was in a lower league)"
One could argue that this isn't of high enough significance for me to act on it, and I'll respect that point of view, but being in a position with superior information about the author of the thread to most of the readers of this thread, I think that intentionally not informing this thread mislead readers of his intentional deception would be wrong of me. That being said, I'm not going to spend time proving myself, so feel free to disregard the above. I'll put my own credibility on the line stating that he, to this point in time, has never been in GM league with the accountname HUARGH.
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@ TS; I'm impressed by the thread, intention of the build and strategy and will absolutely give it a try today.
I read through all posts quickly, and ended up with the last one. Two more things to add; I'll definitely be watching all replays posted in this thread as I really think this kind of play could make the mother-ship viable, even if it were only to keep equal in bases compared to the Zerg (I don't think it needs to rely completely on some proper vortexes), the other thing is that I'd like to add I've had the author of this thread in my FL too for quite some time (before GM league was introduced) and I can only confirm I've never seen him hit GM league either; I'm not going to mix myself into such a debate as I do feel it's irrelevant, because I know where the author stands skill-wise.
Thanks for sharing and I'll keep an eye on this thread Take care guys
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On October 17 2011 21:58 buldermar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 02:48 Excludos wrote:On October 17 2011 01:05 buldermar wrote:On October 02 2011 12:30 the p00n wrote:
My handle is HUARGH and I play at the grandmaster level.
Could you elaborate on how someone who has never been in grandmaster league play at the grandmaster level? If you had bothered to read the first page, you'd find out He was in gm, but got demoted before season end because of inactivity. If you had bothered to use your brain, you'd find out that he was never in GM, therefore also never getting demoted due to inactivity or for any other reason *smiley that blinks*. Firstly, I've had him on my friendslist (the one that shows real name) since season 1. He was never in GM, and would most certainly brag about if it he was. Furthermore, I know he has been trying to get into GM unsuccesfully several times. Secondly, the question was pointed at him, as in "could you elaborate" rather than "could someone elaborate". Finally, I'd definitely argue that "playing at the grandmaster level" is a phrase that, with no further elaboration, suggests being in GM league. However, seing that he never was in GM league, it's an outright lie, which is relevant for the situation as it increases perceived reliability and therefore negating possible skepticism about the strategy; "Well, he's GM, so he probably know better... 90% winrate in GM league, it must be really strong (as opposed to if it was in a lower league)" One could argue that this isn't of high enough significance for me to act on it, and I'll respect that point of view, but being in a position with superior information about the author of the thread to most of the readers of this thread, I think that intentionally not informing this thread mislead readers of his intentional deception would be wrong of me. That being said, I'm not going to spend time proving myself, so feel free to disregard the above. I'll put my own credibility on the line stating that he, to this point in time, has never been in GM league with the accountname HUARGH.
People need to chill out about this. There are a lot of good players that aren't in GM. Minigun is one of the best P players on the NA ladder, and he's not in GM. I stopped taking SC2 as seriously at the start of this year, so now I'm not close to GM, but I still occasionally play (and beat) pros. There's not much of a skill gap between high masters and low GM. If your build beats GM players, then you can say it works at the GM level.
Since we're into the GM title, here's a rep against GM #145.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-237260.jpg)
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On October 17 2011 23:00 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 21:58 buldermar wrote:On October 17 2011 02:48 Excludos wrote:On October 17 2011 01:05 buldermar wrote:On October 02 2011 12:30 the p00n wrote:
My handle is HUARGH and I play at the grandmaster level.
Could you elaborate on how someone who has never been in grandmaster league play at the grandmaster level? If you had bothered to read the first page, you'd find out He was in gm, but got demoted before season end because of inactivity. If you had bothered to use your brain, you'd find out that he was never in GM, therefore also never getting demoted due to inactivity or for any other reason *smiley that blinks*. Firstly, I've had him on my friendslist (the one that shows real name) since season 1. He was never in GM, and would most certainly brag about if it he was. Furthermore, I know he has been trying to get into GM unsuccesfully several times. Secondly, the question was pointed at him, as in "could you elaborate" rather than "could someone elaborate". Finally, I'd definitely argue that "playing at the grandmaster level" is a phrase that, with no further elaboration, suggests being in GM league. However, seing that he never was in GM league, it's an outright lie, which is relevant for the situation as it increases perceived reliability and therefore negating possible skepticism about the strategy; "Well, he's GM, so he probably know better... 90% winrate in GM league, it must be really strong (as opposed to if it was in a lower league)" One could argue that this isn't of high enough significance for me to act on it, and I'll respect that point of view, but being in a position with superior information about the author of the thread to most of the readers of this thread, I think that intentionally not informing this thread mislead readers of his intentional deception would be wrong of me. That being said, I'm not going to spend time proving myself, so feel free to disregard the above. I'll put my own credibility on the line stating that he, to this point in time, has never been in GM league with the accountname HUARGH. People need to chill out about this. There are a lot of good players that aren't in GM. Minigun is one of the best P players on the NA ladder, and he's not in GM. I stopped taking SC2 as seriously at the start of this year, so now I'm not close to GM, but I still occasionally play (and beat) pros. There's not much of a skill gap between high masters and low GM. If your build beats GM players, then you can say it works at the GM level. Since we're into the GM title, here's a rep against GM #145.
I'm not debating the skilllevel of non GM players, nor am I debating the skillgap of the GM league and master league and their respective players. I'm stating that the author of this thread was never in GM league and therefore, per definition, cannot be playing at the GM level, because the later serves as a direct reference to former league distinction (read: skilldistinction). Therefore, claiming to be playing at the GM level is a lie both rhetorically and logically.
What are the defining criterium for playing at the GM level? If you don't have to, at the very least, at some point having been in GM league, then, at the very least, any master league player can claim to be playing at the GM level by having beaten x amount of GM players in their y amount of played games. That negates the whole point of making such claim in the first place, as it serves to distinguish oneself from those who "do not" play at the GM level, which, in effect, will be nobody in the master league. The same line of thought applies to all leagues. As such, the effect of neagting defining criterium for playing at any league level results in anyone from any league being able to rightfully claim to be playing at the GM level.
If your build beat x amount of GM players, you can directly and rightfully state so, but that does not translate into you playing at the GM level in either tautology.
EDIT: a random typo.
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Sooooooo happy to see someone take the mothership seriously insted of being like LOL I MADE A MOTHERSHIP LOLOLOL. EVen carriers i think need to be explored more, even though they just die sooo fast to some units and take longer to make than it takes for small mountain ranges to form. Still, i think there could be some validity in SkyToss. who knows wht match up, but the void ray/carrier/mothership/phoenix unit comp needs exploring.
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On October 18 2011 00:10 buldermar wrote:
I'm not debating the skilllevel of non GM players, nor am I debating the skillgap of the GM league and master league and their respective players. I'm stating that the author of this thread was never in GM league and therefore, per definition, cannot be playing at the GM level
Of course he can play at the GM level, since the GM league has limited places. As long as a good amount of his opponents are GMs. I don't know if that's the case or not, but check his match history first. If a lot of his opponents are GMs, his MMR is one of a GM despite him being in Master's.
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EPT
