EPTFantastic build and effort btw.
[G]HUARGH's 90+% winrate PvZ mothership build - Page 15
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Fantastic build and effort btw. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 13 2011 16:22 jemag wrote: I played a little with the build and I think there's a lot of refinement that can be done. One of the big advantages for me in using that build (and it doesn't seem to be given much emphasis in the guide) is how u can have a really strong defensive position but yet be really agressive on the map with chargelots drops. Chargelot drops are extremely effective and were usually a little weird to try and incorporate mid-game in my usual builds. I also think its fairly easy to do effective transitions when you start opening with that build. What I usually prefer is to get my robo as I get my third so I can start becoming agressive with chargelot drops fairly early in the game. I also found that once I get a decent number of archons for archon toilet, just throwing several immortals into the mix and then slowly trading ur zealots for blink stalkers and HTs with storm makes up for a really strong late game composition (basically blink stalker immortal HTs archon mothership). Yeh, I've actually thought about this yesterday, but more in the form of parking 2 warp prisms at 2 of his bases and remaxing on zealots after a big engagement right here. Also, I've been getting the stargate before the 4th sentry and the 2 gateways, kcdc's earlier stargate suggestion got me thinking. I will play around with warp prisms and eventually update the guide. | ||
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Tantaburs
Canada1825 Posts
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:22 Tantaburs wrote: forgive me if it has already been asked before but would it be better to FFE on maps such as Tal'darim/shakuras or still go gate first? I downvote tal'darim (but would still go 1gate expo) and it is never better to go FFE imo. FFE is a very silly opening. | ||
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Gerike
Hungary14 Posts
he come with hidra roach infestor queens vs i have alrdy 4 maybe even 6 (have to look replay ) tons of zealots + i had like 5 stalker but i still had only 1 vortex energy i preatty good catch him what did not entered the vortex i killed off and than i jumped into vortex with all. he did win.asap i did push gua shield and pulled back mother ship ,but it was sniped my army was preatty much raped i did stay there with like 1 archon + 4-5 zealot vs mass speed roach rally there. - yes my mothership was a lil bit later popped than it suppose to be - yes i had +2 attack - yea maybe my macro slipped a lil bit ( but i bet my oppo did not played perf either ) so what should i do if he dont play the max out macro game , he just secure 3 base and start to pressure arround so i have to move to def my 3rd. I have the mothership ( low enery 1 vortex max ) + like 8-10 gate support. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 14 2011 06:18 Gerike wrote: my problem is that around 14 min mark when my 3 rd should really kick in he come with hidra roach infestor queens vs i have alrdy 4 maybe even 6 (have to look replay ) tons of zealots + i had like 5 stalker but i still had only 1 vortex energy i preatty good catch him what did not entered the vortex i killed off and than i jumped into vortex with all. he did win.asap i did push gua shield and pulled back mother ship ,but it was sniped my army was preatty much raped i did stay there with like 1 archon + 4-5 zealot vs mass speed roach rally there. - yes my mothership was a lil bit later popped than it suppose to be - yes i had +2 attack - yea maybe my macro slipped a lil bit ( but i bet my oppo did not played perf either ) so what should i do if he dont play the max out macro game , he just secure 3 base and start to pressure arround so i have to move to def my 3rd. I have the mothership ( low enery 1 vortex max ) + like 8-10 gate support. It's hard to exactly make out what you're saying, could you post the replay? | ||
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IMRandom
Korea (South)34 Posts
On October 14 2011 00:21 marvellosity wrote: Must say, IMRandom is coming across as a total douche. Either provide hard evidence to back up your claims, or shut the hell up. Fantastic build and effort btw. I'm a douche cause i dislike plagiarism? I provided hard evidence. go look at the link I posted. If u can't read korean, how is does that invalidate anything? Even if u can't read korean, even the title's the same. He was lying about being in GM, he edited that out. He LIES. U gonna believe him about plagiarism? User was warned for this post | ||
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CtrlAltGG
United States36 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:25 the p00n wrote: I downvote tal'darim (but would still go 1gate expo) and it is never better to go FFE imo. FFE is a very silly opening. Could you expand on this a little bit because it seems to me that this style of play would actually go very well with the FFE? Especially given that you recommend a larger gateway composition as a follow-up. To me the economic boost of a forge FFE would allow for a heavier ground army whil;e still being able to expand.I'm just theory-crafting but i would like to hear your reasons for not liking the FFE. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:18 CtrlAltGG wrote: Could you expand on this a little bit because it seems to me that this style of play would actually go very well with the FFE? Especially given that you recommend a larger gateway composition as a follow-up. To me the economic boost of a forge FFE would allow for a heavier ground army whil;e still being able to expand.I'm just theory-crafting but i would like to hear your reasons for not liking the FFE. The reason why I dislike FFE is because the zerg does not have to be very conservative with his droning, and can get an immediate 3rd base. A gateway/core opening may branch into a 1-base all-in. It also allows for more metagaming. If I play against an opponent on ladder for the 3rd time and I went for this build 2 games in a row, I may go for a 1base all-in with a fake nexus or do a 6gate instead of transitioning into mothership. With a FFE, your options are very limited. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:27 the p00n wrote: If I play against an opponent on ladder for the 3rd time and I went for this build 2 games in a row, I may go for a 1base all-in with a fake nexus or do a 6gate instead of transitioning into mothership. With a FFE, your options are very limited. Hey, just a general question about this remark. Why would you change your build if you met the same person on the ladder 3 times? If he knows you are doing this strategy, what in particular are you worried about? Just trying to see weakness in this build, and the easiest way to tell if a strategy has a weakness, is when the user is worried that the opponent knows what they are doing. So a better way to ask: What are you scared of when doing this build, if you told your opponent you're doing it at the start of the game? EDIT: Obviously there will be things you are worried about, as a player. For example, regardless of what I'm doing in PvZ, I'm always worried about Mutas, because I have poor track record against muta play - nothing to do with my builds, just me as a player, does poorly against mutas | ||
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habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
The last game I played against rank 1 guy from your division, but I made a mistake in reading. I saw spire with phoenix so I thought he's gonna go muta, (and I also saw like 8 spore crawlers so I thought he must be bad, lol) but he actually went corruptors and infestors with some roaches. I made to many phoenixes, still won first battle, but he than made shitloads of banelings and I couldn't get 4th then eventually lost to broodlords and his superior econ. I noticed you get excess of minerals soon after taking 3rd and you also make robo around that time, so getting few warp prisms around the map and warping +3 speed zealots from 20 warp gates seems to fit in pretty nicely. Also you could mention that against infestors you should get obs with your army asap in case of NP. Great guide.  | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:30 Trusty wrote: So a better way to ask: What are you scared of when doing this build, if you told your opponent you're doing it at the start of the game? Roach/queen all-in (with like 7-8 queens and mass creep), double expanding, extremely fast drops + tunneling claws (can be prevented though, but hard to play against/to scout). | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:11 habermas wrote: HUARGH, I checked the build: 2 easy wins against master zergs, 1 loss so far. The last game I played against rank 1 guy from your division, but I made a mistake in reading. I saw spire with phoenix so I thought he's gonna go muta, (and I also saw like 8 spore crawlers so I thought he must be bad, lol) but he actually went corruptors and infestors with some roaches. I made to many phoenixes, still won first battle, but he than made shitloads of banelings and I couldn't get 4th then eventually lost to broodlords and his superior econ. I noticed you get excess of minerals soon after taking 3rd and you also make robo around that time, so getting few warp prisms around the map and warping +3 speed zealots from 20 warp gates seems to fit in pretty nicely. Also you could mention that against infestors you should get obs with your army asap in case of NP. Great guide. Glad you like the build could you post the replay you lost? I haven't really lost with it yet, even though I almost lost against Snute (because I made a shitton of mistakes). | ||
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Carbonthief
United States289 Posts
Thanks for the guide, sounds awesome and can't wait to practice it and try it out. | ||
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RafaellO)))
Brazil13 Posts
I was losing to a shitton of platinum zergs these past few days, now I beat 3 master zergs today and a ton of diamonds. This build is really great, and more safe and powerful than I'd expect from something with a mothership included. Thank you for the guide and the replays. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 14 2011 11:12 Carbonthief wrote: Question for OP: which replay do you feel executed the build with the best precision in regards to macro, scouting, and reacting to the scouting, up the point of your 3rd base kicking in? I'm going to be watching replays to study the build, and would just like to know which one you think has the fewest actual mistakes. Thanks for the guide, sounds awesome and can't wait to practice it and try it out. Hard to say. I would say the one against Snute, with the following exceptions: 1. constantly chrono your mothership, so you don't lose all your shit to banelings 2. retreat when zealots are gone, at my first big engagement I basically won the game but threw away my advantage by having only archons fight only roaches in a huge concave 3. better initial vortexes 4. faster 4th and +3 weapons | ||
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Carbonthief
United States289 Posts
On October 14 2011 13:16 the p00n wrote: Hard to say. I would say the one against Snute, with the following exceptions: 1. constantly chrono your mothership, so you don't lose all your shit to banelings 2. retreat when zealots are gone, at my first big engagement I basically won the game but threw away my advantage by having only archons fight only roaches in a huge concave 3. better initial vortexes 4. faster 4th and +3 weapons Thankyou... also a question, do you ever have trouble with just, a bunch of lings denying your 1 gate fe? You seem to stay on 1 zealot and a few sentries for longer time than I feel comfortable doing. Once I get like, 6 sentries, pretty invincible, but that span of time before you get all the sentries out feels really dangerous. Do you just, gauge whether or not you can do this, certain pool timings, basically what I'm asking is, is there anything you ever scout that makes you decide to 3 gate expand instead of 1 gate expand because it simply isn't safe, or do you feel you can pretty much always hold it if you do it right? | ||
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RafaellO)))
Brazil13 Posts
It's cheap, and getting the shield upgrades is awesome for both zealots and archons. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:20 the p00n wrote: I've been getting the stargate before the 4th sentry and the 2 gateways, kcdc's earlier stargate suggestion got me thinking. I've been using this as my primary PvZ build and it's very strong. I do change a few things up tho. You can get a very fast stargate by building the stargate before your 4th sentry, but it's not very safe if Z just makes ~10 speedlings to pressure as your setting up your natural. Most of the time, Z doesn't do that, but it's a small investment from Z that will really screw you up if you don't chrono out those 4 sentries. I prefer to get my stargate after 4 sentries and my 2nd gate which is a little faster than the OP which gets 4 sentries and 3 gates before stargate. I don't get a third gate until after starting my mothership. I put more emphasis on void rays than the OP suggests. Having a few voids (rather than 1 or 2) helps protect you from 2 and early 3-base timings because roaches can't hit them and they pop overseers very quickly. If you get into a fight where you're outnumbered, just focus the voids on the overseers and you're safe again. I don't make as many archons. Archon+mothership is great, but it can be beaten by well-positioned roaches and/or broodlords. Having 4 HT with storm and a handful of void rays feels stronger and more versatile than just massing archons. I still make a lot of archons for the meat of my army--I just spread my gas slightly more than the OP suggests. Storm is much better for protecting your mothership+voids against corruptors than archons alone are, and storm's range is very helpful against broodlords. I will say that the control for mothership + archon/zealot + HT + void rays can be very difficult as each group should be controlled separately. I'm not 100% sure charge is worth getting as early as the OP suggests. In that 10-13 min window where I'm setting up my third, I think I'd rather have an extra archon than have my zealots run a little faster. I don't bother with trying to sneak a 9 minute expo. Z can easily shut it down if they're playing well, and the defensible 10:30 expo feels fast enough. | ||
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Botnot
United States16 Posts
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