EPT[G] TvP FE -> 4Factory MTH, inspired by Byun - Page 2
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PrideTV
Vietnam434 Posts
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Crytch
Germany135 Posts
If you just come to say "hey nice build, but nor your's" your not right here. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Byun did this on GSL and won so its normal for people to think that he was the 1st one using that but in the end it doesn´t matter I really liked this BO when i saw Byun using it thanks for the info TC. But wasn´t this just a Mech build? He mostly used his leftover marines.I wonder if I skimp on the last Reactored Factory I can take a 3rd while I attack? I´ll be sure to give it a try, I really like Mech against Protoss. | ||
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Mattjk
Canada39 Posts
http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/06/14/sc2-101-eglzgamer-pro-build-order-tvp | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
On September 25 2011 01:26 windsupernova wrote: Seriosuly who the hell cares that X or Y foreigner did something in his stream? Kudos to them, but seriously focus on the Build not on who ¨invented it¨. Gosh reminds me of people when a new build is popularized and always someone is claiming ¨they did this since Beta¨ Byun did this on GSL and won so its normal for people to think that he was the 1st one using that but in the end it doesn´t matter I really liked this BO when i saw Byun using it thanks for the info TC. But wasn´t this just a Mech build? He mostly used his leftover marines.I wonder if I skimp on the last Reactored Factory I can take a 3rd while I attack? I´ll be sure to give it a try, I really like Mech against Protoss. Lol well i care who did what, but not in the way people are. I could walk in right now and say "wow, this is my build except with a small difference" I mean, really guys? There's so many strategies that, unless yours is EXACTLY the same, it is perfectly fine to post this guide and say it is Byuns. What's most important (if you want to even think about who "invented" what, which isn't of much importance) is that someone does it on a televised match. Some random bronze player could do this strategy and come in and say it's his build too? I don't think so. And even if your build order is exactly the same, unless you showed it in a televised match I don't think people really care. I mean yes you may have been the first (impossible to tell) person to ever do a specific build order, but did you actually show it in a high level of competition, where risks are bigger and there is more at stake? On September 22 2011 12:42 captainwaffles wrote: This is nothing new like avilo said... LzGamer had similar build, Goody has a similar build, Avilo has a similar build and the difference? They have more techlab facts because tanks are the back bone of a mech army, what byun did doesn't live past the mid game if doesn't cripple or kill his opponent. Its frustrating seeing people give koreans all the credit for builds that foreigners have been doing before them. All that being said, its a pretty cool build. EDIT- for your Key notes part... this is a mech build, I don't see how or why it would be a good idea to make more barracks if he isn't doing an FE build, you can't just build production willy nilly... Let's look at this example. He notes a KEY difference in these foreigner's strategies (I won't even call them a build unless they're EXACTLY the same, cus that's what a friggin BO is) but says it still belongs to the foreigners? No. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
Unless it becomes popular and takes a name, like SK Terran in BW. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:35 Zombo Joe wrote: The build belongs to everyone who uses it. Unless it becomes popular and takes a name, like SK Terran in BW. That's just a general strategy/gameplan/composition though, not a build order. I mean, it is called SK Terran because it is named after the terran player "SK" for "inventing" it, AKA showing it on televised matches before anyone else. Or do I misunderstand and you mean that, as long as there is no dominating player that continues to define and be defined by a specific build, a build should not be associated with someone's name? | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
On October 29 2011 10:53 Zombo Joe wrote: Pretty much, it doesn't really matter, just call it Marine Tank Hellion and be done with it. lol xD that works too | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
On October 29 2011 12:25 spbelky wrote: So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think. Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times. Sweet thank you ^0^ Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion. So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time). So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support). Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem. Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly. Maybe this won't work though, since I'm not sure if it's too different from Marine Tank with focus on marines and bio upgrades, which I hear doesn't work that well (but I don't understand why). | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
On October 29 2011 12:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Sweet thank you ^0^ Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion. So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time). So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support). Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem. Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly. Marines really don't serve any purpose to be honest. They just melt to chargelots, or storm, or colossus, or all of the above. Thors also don't serve any purpose, you're better off with 2 tanks or 3 vikings. As for the phoenix... if it's early game phoenix, you will have the 20 marines to defend. If it's late game phoenix, you will have the ghosts for emp, and shooting them. If he previously went colossus, you will have vikings as well. Phoenix simply isn't a threat, atleast not in my experience. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
On October 29 2011 12:51 spbelky wrote: Marines really don't serve any purpose to be honest. They just melt to chargelots, or storm, or colossus, or all of the above. Thors also don't serve any purpose, you're better off with 2 tanks or 3 vikings. As for the phoenix... if it's early game phoenix, you will have the 20 marines to defend. If it's late game phoenix, you will have the ghosts for emp, and shooting them. If he previously went colossus, you will have vikings as well. Phoenix simply isn't a threat, atleast not in my experience. Though if you micro your tanks to target his Colossi/HT shouldn't your hellion/marine be good enough to deal with the zealots? Or are tanks simply not strong enough to counter Colossi/HT? In my mind this should work but once again I keep hearing marine tank doesn't do too well TvP. Cus if you have maybe 6050 min, 2500 gas, 121 supply 20 Tanks 18 Hellions 25 Marines It might be better than 6250 min, 2625 gas, 115 supply 15 Tanks 25 Hellions 10 Vikings You can get a few more tanks which might make a huge difference. I think Marines are better vs voids and carriers than vikings anyway which both do well against mech right? | ||
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CelestialX
Canada32 Posts
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
On October 29 2011 13:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Though if you micro your tanks to target his Colossi/HT shouldn't your hellion/marine be good enough to deal with the zealots? Or are tanks simply not strong enough to counter Colossi/HT? In my mind this should work but once again I keep hearing marine tank doesn't do too well TvP. Cus if you have maybe 6050 min, 2500 gas, 121 supply 20 Tanks 18 Hellions 25 Marines It might be better than 6250 min, 2625 gas, 115 supply 15 Tanks 25 Hellions 10 Vikings You can get a few more tanks which might make a huge difference. I think Marines are better vs voids and carriers than vikings anyway which both do well against mech right? The biggest flaw in your two examples is that you're not taking in to account the time it takes to build 15-20 tanks. So while the pure marine/tank/hellion might be a better unit composition, it's unrealistic to get that many tanks until the very very late game. Also, and this is a big one, pure MTH at maxed supply is a PURE ground force, which means your army footprint is going to be HUGE, which decreases the effectiveness of your units, since at any given point in time, a significant portion of your army might not even be in range to attack until the chargelots are already in your face. Another reason is that you really need a LOT of hellions, they melt zealots, they buffer damage, they're fast harassing units, a few of them can roast an entire probe line or stray HTs. But if you have a low hellion count, and you still want to use them as harassing / sniping units, you won't have enough hellions left over as buffer units for your tanks. And finally, the size and speed of the hellion makes it far superior to the marine in terms of surviving / escaping protoss splash damage (colossus/ht). Marines not only have a lot less HP than hellions, but they are smaller and thus stack in tighter packs (and are slower, unless you stim, in which case you've already damaged yourself). I can't emphasize enough how squishy marines are, and how surprisingly sturdy hellions can be. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
Again, hopefully my final counterpoint, the Vikings give you that super mobile extra vision range for your tanks, as well as they can snipe colossus with their great mobility. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
On October 29 2011 13:20 spbelky wrote: The biggest flaw in your two examples is that you're not taking in to account the time it takes to build 15-20 tanks. So while the pure marine/tank/hellion might be a better unit composition, it's unrealistic to get that many tanks until the very very late game. Also, and this is a big one, pure MTH at maxed supply is a PURE ground force, which means your army footprint is going to be HUGE, which decreases the effectiveness of your units, since at any given point in time, a significant portion of your army might not even be in range to attack until the chargelots are already in your face. Another reason is that you really need a LOT of hellions, they melt zealots, they buffer damage, they're fast harassing units, a few of them can roast an entire probe line or stray HTs. But if you have a low hellion count, and you still want to use them as harassing / sniping units, you won't have enough hellions left over as buffer units for your tanks. And finally, the size and speed of the hellion makes it far superior to the marine in terms of surviving / escaping protoss splash damage (colossus/ht). Marines not only have a lot less HP than hellions, but they are smaller and thus stack in tighter packs (and are slower, unless you stim, in which case you've already damaged yourself). I can't emphasize enough how squishy marines are, and how surprisingly sturdy hellions can be. Alright, thanks for the awesome response  I understand it a lot better now. | ||
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