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TvP Fast Expand into 4 Factory Marine Tank Hellion ![[image loading]](http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/spbelky/MTH.jpg)
I don't know if Byun was the creator of this build, but this was the first time I've ever seen it.
edit: apparently Goody, LZGamer, Avilo, and some other foreigners have been doing this for a while. I searched for any guides similar to this one before I posed this, and did not find one. So while Goody, LZGamer, and Avilo may have pioneered this build, I was unaware of that, and they deserve some credit.
Some things about me... + Show Spoiler +This is my first "guide", and it is now comprehensive. I am a High Masters Terran on NA. So far I've been successful with this build, but I would not recommend it as a main staple build... just something you have fun with every once in a while. I personally don't see this working on small maps, and have only tried it only cross positions, on maps like Tal'Darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau, and maybe Antigua Shipyard. With that said, this is a very strong build.
I saw Byun do this in Code A the other day and wanted to try it and wanted to put the Build Order up on TL for everyone to have.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66247
If you don't have a GOM subscription... get one  If you really can't get a subscription, I've supplied two replays:
Replay 1: General BO, there is no opponent, but this is the exact build Byun was doing.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13366
+ Show Spoiler +Build Order
10 Supply Depot (near CC, not choke)
12 Barracks (when the scv finishes Barracks, this is your scouting SCV)
15 Marine (only one for now)
16 Orbital Command (that scouting SCV should be heading out)
17 Command Center at natural (to time this right, pull an scv when the marine is 50% done, send it to natural)
17 Supply Depot
17 Marine (this one is delayed, but constant hereafter)
22 Refinery
22 Refinery
24 Bunker (can slap down at 23 if you aren't comfortable)
25 Factory + Orbital Command
29 Reactor on Barracks + 3rd Refinery at natural
31 Supply Depot
34 Supply Depot
34 Tech Lab on Factory
37 Tank + 2x Marine + Siege mode (constant Tank+2marine from here on out)
42 Supply Depot (constant supply depots from scv from now on)
~55Food, once you've started your 2nd tank, throw down 3 factories at once.
~You also need to start building 2x supply depots constantly now
Once the 3 factories finish, build 3x Reactors on them + Blue Flame upgrade (this massive gas dump will delay your 3rd tank a little bit)
When you push out at 10 minutes you should have:
~100 supply, consisting of
20 Marines
3 Siege Tanks + Siege mode
6 Hellions + Blue Flame
and by the time you reach your opponents base another 6 hellions should have caught up (they're so fast) and 2 marines and another tank straggling behind. The speed of hellions is really the strength of this build. They reinforce fast, they can dart up ramps for vision, and they can quickly harass a mineral line away from your main push.
Replay 2: A variation of the build I made up in a ladder game, it's a bit safer for closer positions / smaller maps
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13367
+ Show Spoiler +This is not the "best" execution of the build. I make an early push with just marines and tanks that I feel confident will do damage if hes teching too hard, unfortunately I didn't send 1 marine ahead of my army like I'm supposed to... and got caught out of position. Then when I sieged on the low ground I didn't have the hellion I needed to sprint up the ramp for vision and had to pull back. Barf. If you want a better execution replay, check the GOM VOD, or check back here later, I'll try and upload a better one.
Key Notes
• This should not be your staple TvP build, but rather a nice build you can throw in there once in a while on larger maps.
• If you opponent is NOT going for a FE... bunker+wall up on one base, and try to identify what all in is coming.
+ Show Spoiler +Vs 4gate: hopefully you have enough bunkers + scv repair + wall off until siege mode arrives
Vs Voidray: continue with siege mode, but get a viking asap, possibly even swapping starport with the reactor rax if you still have healthy marines (2x viking or viking+medivac)
Vs DT: hopefully you haven't muled too hard, get a Raven asap. If it's that dire of a situation swap the starport for the factory techlab and cancel siegemode. If you're not sure if it's a DT, you can afford the 325 minerals to make an engi bay + 2 turrest (1 at each CC)
Vs Colossus: I actually haven't seen a 1base colossus build on a big map in a long long time... so... you should be safe with siege tanks + vikings OR banshees, just keep your marines away from that colossus!
Vs Anything on a small map, you're dead.
Vs What else is there that isn't an expansion build??
• Siege up in typical positions outside his natural (think Tal'Darim)
• Bringing a few SCVs is optional, I personally like to. (Keep them separate from army control groups!)
• If you do bring SCVs, it's nice to build a Barracks outside their base. You can use it to get vision of high ground, get extra tank range, or land it to create a choke point (zealot deathtrap)
• You shouldn't have your whole army on one hotkey! Ideally you want 3, 1 for each unit type, but at the very least set it up so you can easily use your marines to focus any immortal shields, and/or use your tanks to focus stalkers or zealots that aren't humping your marines.
• Hellions are fast, use them! Scout ahead of your army, flame those zealots a few times before the major battle!
I think that just about sums it up, if I missed anything let me know and I'll be sure to add it. Other than that, I hope you enjoy this build and please report back with any feedback / comments / results!
edit
OK so it'd been a month, and I've played a few games where I used the build.
Replay 3: Another variation of the build I made up in a ladder game, it's pretty good I like it.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15011
+ Show Spoiler + I delay the tanks for reactored hellion scouting/harass and defensive marauders. The one thing I like about this game is the extra barracks I build and float over to gain vision of the high ground + extra tank range. The biggest criticism I'd have in this game is I positioned my tanks poorly outside his natural, I could have done a better job.
Replay 4: Pretty smooth execution of the build on Shakuras.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15012
+ Show Spoiler + Basically I just slammed out the build order, positioned myself properly, and then started to lean on him till he caved and lost. Pretty easy win.
Replay 5: Standard execution of build, although I add an extra bunker to be safe.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15013
+ Show Spoiler +Then I scouted an early robo + colossus, and it took me longer than it should have to throw down the starport. He tried to flank my army, so I just pounced on the position to prevent his retreat. KEY NOTE: I DID NOT PUSH INTO HIS BASE. I just separated his army from his base, and then sent in the hellions to harass. However, afterward he caught me out of position and raped my army. Bad. Didn't panic, came back, won in a long game. However, I noticed he was going very stalker / colossus heavy, so I decided getting some marauders might be a good idea. I'll be honest, I don't have a lot of late game experience with mech, so some games I end up transitioning into a mech/bio hybrid, and just abuse the positioning power of tanks, and the zealot/ht/probe roasting power of hellions, WITH bio.
Replay 6: Pretty smooth execution of the build on Shakuras, with the deviation of an extra barracks.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15014
+ Show Spoiler + I delayed his expo with an engi bay, and then feared he might just 4/5gate me instead of actually expanding, so I threw down an extra barracks. I later scanned to see that he did in fact expand, so I just used the extra barracks for addons, not a huge deal.
Later he catches me in the middle of the map as I'm pushing, and when I see his army I decide it might be better to just take map control and play safe instead of going for the kill, which is a great strength of this build. At around 22/23minutes, he engages me with a maxed protoss deathball, but my 3 emps + 8 sieged tanks and 70 supply of hellions melt his shit pretty fast. Splash damage ftw.
Replay 7: Good opening on Metalopolis, bad push though.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15015
+ Show Spoiler +He catches 3 of my tanks unsieged, and has 3 colossus of his own. Somehow the engagement still goes in my favor, and I probably could have ended the game at 13minutes but I didn't realize how badly I had beat him.
He goes mass blink stalker, which I'm forced to defend with hellions, which means neither of us is killing eachother very fast. After the second blink stalker bullshit I said fuck it and started making/upgrading marauders. I should have denied expos / hellion harassed his eco more in the late game, but other than that a solid game. Oh and he desparately tech swaps to void rays and goes for a base race, but it fails.
Replay 8: Tal'Darim, Protoss opens VR.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=15016
+ Show Spoiler + So he 2gate VR expands... Keys to defending this kind of crap: unit positioning! Just run away from the VR until he over extends, then engage. This will both minimize losses and delay for your viking. It's important to still get siegemode asap, because if they bring the gateway units too, you're gonna need the siege range.
After that, ezwin.
Late Game Transition
• After the push, you should either have done at least one of the following:
-Inflicted significant economic damage
-Traded armies, hopefully favoring you
-Taken map control
-Won the game
-Lost the game
• ...If you lost, that sucks. If you won, that rules. If you achieved one of the other options, it should be safe for you to begin building your 3rd CC and start setting yourself up for the late game! To do this, begin by:
-Lifting your barracks and building a Starport on the reactor. You will use this for hellion drops, or if he has colossus tech, vikings.
-Build to additional barracks for a total of 3, all with tech labs
-Build a ghost academy
-Build and engi bay if you don't have one (I usually have one, I hate DTs) infantry upgrades are optional, but they are cheap... and I like to build marauders when I don't need ghosts.
-Build atleast one armory. This is personal preference, but 3/3 mech is pretty sweet... In anycase, you should upgrade your mech with atleast one armory.
Your general Late Game strategy should be to take Map Control, Deny Bases, Take Bases, and Hellion Harass. If you fail to do ALL four of these things, you will lose to a good protoss. Luckily, if you successfully take Map Control, the other three goals become much easier. So, naturally, taking Map Control should be your #1 priority.
The best way to gain [u]Map Control]/u] is to find somewhere on the map to siege your siege tanks that: allows you to take a 3rd/4th base, and serve as a base camp for your hellions to scout probes trying to put up expansions (Deny Bases), and dart in to already existing protoss expansions (Hellion Harass).
Other tactics include hellion drops for economic harass, and marauder drops for tech/production harass. If you're lucky, one of these forms of harassment will draw the protoss army out of position, allowing your main army to gain a better position. If you're not that lucky, then continue macro'ing and harassing, and you should reach max before him, in which case you can push hard and win. The amount of splash damage Tanks/Hellions/Ghosts do to ground is absurd, so as long as you don't get caught in a bad spot, your army should beat his, so don't be afraid to get aggressive, so long as you're careful not to engage poorly.
Also, make sure you keep scouting his tech / army composition. If you continually poke/prod him, you should be fine, but if you leave him alone too long he could tech switch and murder you. It could be anything from mass zealots and you don't have enough hellions, or heavy immortals you don't have enough ghosts for, or mass colossus you don't have the vikings for. There's even the dreaded VR or Carrier tech switch, in which case you should have seen from your pokes/prods that you can just straight up kill him. The investment in stargate tech should set him back enough for you to just roll him over, but it's hard to identify that timing sometimes,  .
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it sounds weird actually giving this dude credit for ANYTHING, but LzGamer had a very similar TvP build which, due to its strange timings, netted him a lot of NA ladder points around high masters.
edit: it was a 1 rax reactor expand into 3 fac blue flame hellion -> tanks.
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Is this still effective for patch 1.4?
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LzGamer was having a lot of success with similar build to this with alot of hellions, some tanks and marines. When you have alot of hellions, they become cost effective to army trade with stalkers.
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I got raped by this build the other day T_T
scouted 4 factories, 3 with reactors and had no fucking clue what was going on.
decided to slap down 3 robo's assuming he was meching thors/tanks and hellions
next thing i know there's a blue flame/marine/tank army knocking on my doorstep
I wasnt expecting it so soon as i had just put down 3 robo's + my 3rd nexus all around the 9 minute mark.
I got caught macroing too hard and was utterly crush
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On September 22 2011 08:22 happyft wrote:
Is this still effective for patch 1.4?
Ya the -5 damage on blue flame isn't a HUGE deal when killing the zealots.
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I've seen this kind of openings many times, even in Warden's stream & Avilo's stream. But i think you should have a correct positioning of tanks... that's a bit difficult.
Anyways, these strategies have an unexploited potential. Thanks!
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Thank you for making this, was happy to see byun win the first set, though i liked both Oz and Byun 
It seems really strong just the way he used it, for maps with cliffable naturals.
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This is not a new build -_- why does it take a korean to do something for people to respect what foreigners came up with and already were doing -_-
The only new twist i saw from the byun game was a 4th reactored factory...which i'm pretty sure was not able to be supported lol.
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its a interresting built hellions are with support of tank marine more versatile then it seems to be
they do vs non light units decent dmg thx to aoe
are fast and cost no gas at all
to be honest i never saw a 3 reactor only for hellions
i mean
how many supply he built as once 3/4 ?
in terms of macro such a built is a little bit harder then the normal builts that terran do
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On September 22 2011 08:51 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 08:22 happyft wrote:
Is this still effective for patch 1.4? Ya the -5 damage on blue flame isn't a HUGE deal when killing the zealots.
Hm, is there a non-all in variation of this build? I've been getting wrecked in my tvp's with my standard 1 reactor rax CC into mech build. Also, don't you necessarily need ghost?
Man I'm still wincing thinking about this one game I lost to a 2 base timing attack the toss did with +1 shield chargelot archon 6 gate all-in.
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On September 22 2011 09:27 avilo wrote:
This is not a new build -_- why does it take a korean to do something for people to respect what foreigners came up with and already were doing -_-
The only new twist i saw from the byun game was a 4th reactored factory...which i'm pretty sure was not able to be supported lol.
because foreigners are bad and d-class pros like rainbow can do whatever they want on NA and still get 80% winrates
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I got crushed by this on cross position Shattered Temple last night. If the terran does a slow and positional push, it is incredibly awkward to deal with. I'm still not certain of the best unit combination to counter it.
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This is nothing new like avilo said... LzGamer had similar build, Goody has a similar build, Avilo has a similar build and the difference? They have more techlab facts because tanks are the back bone of a mech army, what byun did doesn't live past the mid game if doesn't cripple or kill his opponent.
Its frustrating seeing people give koreans all the credit for builds that foreigners have been doing before them.
All that being said, its a pretty cool build.
EDIT- for your Key notes part... this is a mech build, I don't see how or why it would be a good idea to make more barracks if he isn't doing an FE build, you can't just build production willy nilly...
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I don't know, for all intents and purposes LZgamer's of the build was essentially 1 base play that used the 2nd orbital as a macro CC for several minutes until he pushed out, after which he'd float the orbital out. Also he did not get siege mode, instead opting for extra tank and mobile mode to target fire the armored units while hellions target fired the light units. Its pretty rare for the P to go Stargate after seeing a 1 rax inbase CC.
I don't watch avilo much, but from what I've seen of his TvP he tends to delay the push substantially in order to include Ghosts with the push. I've watched a lot of Goody and Major, who tend to make mech work in TvP, but I don't think I've ever seen 3 fac reactor hellion on two base without Thors or Vikings. To me it seems like Goody delays his push for Vikings, kinda like how Avilo delays for Ghosts. And Major tends to go BW style mass expand with mass tank and hope the opponent doesn't go air (at which point he abandons mech and makes a gazillion marines)
Also most players I've seen tend to open up mech with either Banshees, BFH drop, or fast Thor...instead this build opens up with a fairy standard 1 rax FE into very late BFH production.
I think you'd be surprised how well BFH does against Zeal/Archon even after the patch. Test it yourself in the unit tester. Chargelots are easily kitable if you can bait them all to charge at a single retard magnet sent slightly ahead of their army. A good player will turn the charge autocast off and trigger it manually, but I've only seen EG.Axslav do that...I haven't noticed any Koreans doing it either.
I mean seriously, BFH/SpeedReaper absolutely dominates Chargelot/Archon cost for cost with equal upgrades, and can easily outrun storms. The advantage gets even bigger when you pair the hellions with non-sucky gas units, or have Ghosts around to EMP down the HTs (or the extra Archon)
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Lz and avilo have definitely been doing this for a while but does it really matter who gets credit for a build? Props to Byun for being one of the few terrans with enough balls to pull out a mech style vs protoss in GSL. I really hope that we see more TvP mech play in the future of GSL and Korean play in general.
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On September 22 2011 12:21 Caz. wrote:
I got crushed by this on cross position Shattered Temple last night. If the terran does a slow and positional push, it is incredibly awkward to deal with. I'm still not certain of the best unit combination to counter it.
When I scout a mech build with a lot of hellions, I try to get blink as fast as possible to deny
harassing. But later you need colossi because stalkers don't cut it anymore.
In the end you want some immortals to catch tankfire, some more colossi for damage (hellions and marines) and blink stalkers. Don't forget upgrades!
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Tried it against a DT Expo on Taldarim.
Replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-232993.jpg)
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On September 22 2011 09:27 avilo wrote:
This is not a new build -_- why does it take a korean to do something for people to respect what foreigners came up with and already were doing -_-
The only new twist i saw from the byun game was a 4th reactored factory...which i'm pretty sure was not able to be supported lol.
I watch the GSL. I do not watch Goody or LZGamer.
I really don't know what else to say, I didn't mean to offend the foreigners who were obviously doing this first.
My sincere intention was to share something in an organized and public manner. Does it really matter who gets credit? I honestly considered NOT putting any name in the title, but then I still get people yelling at me for not giving the right person credit, or perhaps trying to steal credit.
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On September 22 2011 12:42 captainwaffles wrote:
EDIT- for your Key notes part... this is a mech build, I don't see how or why it would be a good idea to make more barracks if he isn't doing an FE build, you can't just build production willy nilly...
I'll clarify for you.
The 3x Factory timing is ~7:30 gametime.
You will know way before that 7:30 mark if your opponent isn't going for a FE.
With that said, I wouldn't consider a 3-1-1 or 4-1-1 "willy nilly" production.
In addition: I've never been 1based while using this build, so I don't know, maybe it CAN hold off 1base play, maybe not. But I know from experience that I have an easy time holding off 1base play if I can get a starport up followed by additional barracks.
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Lol at build, no credit for us. Always innovative when a Korean does it
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can we stop complaining about the korean who played this build first, and switch back to the topic?
If you just come to say "hey nice build, but nor your's" your not right here.
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Seriosuly who the hell cares that X or Y foreigner did something in his stream? Kudos to them, but seriously focus on the Build not on who ¨invented it¨. Gosh reminds me of people when a new build is popularized and always someone is claiming ¨they did this since Beta¨
Byun did this on GSL and won so its normal for people to think that he was the 1st one using that but in the end it doesn´t matter
I really liked this BO when i saw Byun using it thanks for the info TC. But wasn´t this just a Mech build? He mostly used his leftover marines.I wonder if I skimp on the last Reactored Factory I can take a 3rd while I attack?
I´ll be sure to give it a try, I really like Mech against Protoss.
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I believe this build hits before colossus or at least before more than 1 colossus with range. That might be helpful to note.
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On September 25 2011 01:26 windsupernova wrote:
Seriosuly who the hell cares that X or Y foreigner did something in his stream? Kudos to them, but seriously focus on the Build not on who ¨invented it¨. Gosh reminds me of people when a new build is popularized and always someone is claiming ¨they did this since Beta¨
Byun did this on GSL and won so its normal for people to think that he was the 1st one using that but in the end it doesn´t matter
I really liked this BO when i saw Byun using it thanks for the info TC. But wasn´t this just a Mech build? He mostly used his leftover marines.I wonder if I skimp on the last Reactored Factory I can take a 3rd while I attack?
I´ll be sure to give it a try, I really like Mech against Protoss.
Lol well i care who did what, but not in the way people are. I could walk in right now and say "wow, this is my build except with a small difference"
I mean, really guys? There's so many strategies that, unless yours is EXACTLY the same, it is perfectly fine to post this guide and say it is Byuns.
What's most important (if you want to even think about who "invented" what, which isn't of much importance) is that someone does it on a televised match. Some random bronze player could do this strategy and come in and say it's his build too? I don't think so.
And even if your build order is exactly the same, unless you showed it in a televised match I don't think people really care. I mean yes you may have been the first (impossible to tell) person to ever do a specific build order, but did you actually show it in a high level of competition, where risks are bigger and there is more at stake?
On September 22 2011 12:42 captainwaffles wrote:
This is nothing new like avilo said... LzGamer had similar build, Goody has a similar build, Avilo has a similar build and the difference? They have more techlab facts because tanks are the back bone of a mech army, what byun did doesn't live past the mid game if doesn't cripple or kill his opponent.
Its frustrating seeing people give koreans all the credit for builds that foreigners have been doing before them.
All that being said, its a pretty cool build.
EDIT- for your Key notes part... this is a mech build, I don't see how or why it would be a good idea to make more barracks if he isn't doing an FE build, you can't just build production willy nilly...
Let's look at this example. He notes a KEY difference in these foreigner's strategies (I won't even call them a build unless they're EXACTLY the same, cus that's what a friggin BO is) but says it still belongs to the foreigners? No.
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The build belongs to everyone who uses it.
Unless it becomes popular and takes a name, like SK Terran in BW.
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On October 29 2011 10:35 Zombo Joe wrote:
The build belongs to everyone who uses it.
Unless it becomes popular and takes a name, like SK Terran in BW.
That's just a general strategy/gameplan/composition though, not a build order.
I mean, it is called SK Terran because it is named after the terran player "SK" for "inventing" it, AKA showing it on televised matches before anyone else.
Or do I misunderstand and you mean that, as long as there is no dominating player that continues to define and be defined by a specific build, a build should not be associated with someone's name?
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Pretty much, it doesn't really matter, just call it Marine Tank Hellion and be done with it. lol
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On October 29 2011 10:53 Zombo Joe wrote:
Pretty much, it doesn't really matter, just call it Marine Tank Hellion and be done with it. lol
xD that works too
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So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think.
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times.
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On October 29 2011 12:25 spbelky wrote:
So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think.
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times.
Sweet thank you ^0^
Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion.
So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time).
So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support).
Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem.
Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly.
Maybe this won't work though, since I'm not sure if it's too different from Marine Tank with focus on marines and bio upgrades, which I hear doesn't work that well (but I don't understand why).
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On October 29 2011 12:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 12:25 spbelky wrote:
So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think.
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times. Sweet thank you ^0^ Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion. So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time). So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support). Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem. Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly.
Marines really don't serve any purpose to be honest. They just melt to chargelots, or storm, or colossus, or all of the above. Thors also don't serve any purpose, you're better off with 2 tanks or 3 vikings. As for the phoenix... if it's early game phoenix, you will have the 20 marines to defend. If it's late game phoenix, you will have the ghosts for emp, and shooting them. If he previously went colossus, you will have vikings as well.
Phoenix simply isn't a threat, atleast not in my experience.
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On October 29 2011 12:51 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 12:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 29 2011 12:25 spbelky wrote:
So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think.
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times. Sweet thank you ^0^ Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion. So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time). So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support). Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem. Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly. Marines really don't serve any purpose to be honest. They just melt to chargelots, or storm, or colossus, or all of the above. Thors also don't serve any purpose, you're better off with 2 tanks or 3 vikings. As for the phoenix... if it's early game phoenix, you will have the 20 marines to defend. If it's late game phoenix, you will have the ghosts for emp, and shooting them. If he previously went colossus, you will have vikings as well. Phoenix simply isn't a threat, atleast not in my experience.
Though if you micro your tanks to target his Colossi/HT shouldn't your hellion/marine be good enough to deal with the zealots? Or are tanks simply not strong enough to counter Colossi/HT? In my mind this should work but once again I keep hearing marine tank doesn't do too well TvP.
Cus if you have maybe
6050 min, 2500 gas, 121 supply
20 Tanks
18 Hellions
25 Marines
It might be better than
6250 min, 2625 gas, 115 supply
15 Tanks
25 Hellions
10 Vikings
You can get a few more tanks which might make a huge difference. I think Marines are better vs voids and carriers than vikings anyway which both do well against mech right?
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This timing was made by some diamond player in the Korean server.
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On October 29 2011 13:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 12:51 spbelky wrote:On October 29 2011 12:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 29 2011 12:25 spbelky wrote:
So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think.
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times. Sweet thank you ^0^ Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion. So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time). So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support). Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem. Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly. Marines really don't serve any purpose to be honest. They just melt to chargelots, or storm, or colossus, or all of the above. Thors also don't serve any purpose, you're better off with 2 tanks or 3 vikings. As for the phoenix... if it's early game phoenix, you will have the 20 marines to defend. If it's late game phoenix, you will have the ghosts for emp, and shooting them. If he previously went colossus, you will have vikings as well. Phoenix simply isn't a threat, atleast not in my experience. Though if you micro your tanks to target his Colossi/HT shouldn't your hellion/marine be good enough to deal with the zealots? Or are tanks simply not strong enough to counter Colossi/HT? In my mind this should work but once again I keep hearing marine tank doesn't do too well TvP. Cus if you have maybe 6050 min, 2500 gas, 121 supply 20 Tanks 18 Hellions 25 Marines It might be better than 6250 min, 2625 gas, 115 supply 15 Tanks 25 Hellions 10 Vikings You can get a few more tanks which might make a huge difference. I think Marines are better vs voids and carriers than vikings anyway which both do well against mech right?
The biggest flaw in your two examples is that you're not taking in to account the time it takes to build 15-20 tanks. So while the pure marine/tank/hellion might be a better unit composition, it's unrealistic to get that many tanks until the very very late game.
Also, and this is a big one, pure MTH at maxed supply is a PURE ground force, which means your army footprint is going to be HUGE, which decreases the effectiveness of your units, since at any given point in time, a significant portion of your army might not even be in range to attack until the chargelots are already in your face.
Another reason is that you really need a LOT of hellions, they melt zealots, they buffer damage, they're fast harassing units, a few of them can roast an entire probe line or stray HTs. But if you have a low hellion count, and you still want to use them as harassing / sniping units, you won't have enough hellions left over as buffer units for your tanks.
And finally, the size and speed of the hellion makes it far superior to the marine in terms of surviving / escaping protoss splash damage (colossus/ht). Marines not only have a lot less HP than hellions, but they are smaller and thus stack in tighter packs (and are slower, unless you stim, in which case you've already damaged yourself). I can't emphasize enough how squishy marines are, and how surprisingly sturdy hellions can be.
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I guess Tanks + Marines + Hellions could be better than Tank/Hellion/Viking if you plan on playing SUPER defensive, because there is no way you can be aggressive vs a colossus Protoss with tanks as your counter colossus, you will be forced to siege AND gain that extra vision BEFORE the engagement for your tanks to really counter them, so I don't see how you can accomplish any aggression with that composition.
Again, hopefully my final counterpoint, the Vikings give you that super mobile extra vision range for your tanks, as well as they can snipe colossus with their great mobility.
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On October 29 2011 13:20 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 29 2011 12:51 spbelky wrote:On October 29 2011 12:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 29 2011 12:25 spbelky wrote:
So I just uploaded replays 3-8, they're pretty good I think.
Also added a late game transition section now that I've used the build a few times. Sweet thank you ^0^ Also, I have a question. Usually when you go mech you go heavy on hellions and tanks, maybe a thor or two just to transition into starports, but later on you rely on Vikings as anti-air cus thors are only good against light air units and ground units which is already taken care of by tank/hellion. So I was thinking, since Tanks outrange Colossi anyways, and 1 viking is about the same cost as 5 marines (gas being slightly more valuable, especially cus you're going mech and want as much gas as possible), maybe it would be better in some cases to get marines vs vikings? You can float barracks around for vision and a mass phoenix transition won't catch you off guard (you might not have enough vikings at the time). So in this case since you already have barracks making marines maybe it would be good to just stick with marine/tank/hellion, although you're upgrading the tanks and hellions mainly? (if you do upgrade infantry it would just be +1 attack since the marines are just DPS support). Yes you might need combat shield and stim to make the marines efficient, but Starports need gas to make too so the upgrade costs shouldn't be much a problem. Another obvious advantage is that marines can attack ground units too, and when you have an army of tanks and hellions, both of which shoot slowly and usually overkill a lot, the Marines might improve your overall strength significantly. Marines really don't serve any purpose to be honest. They just melt to chargelots, or storm, or colossus, or all of the above. Thors also don't serve any purpose, you're better off with 2 tanks or 3 vikings. As for the phoenix... if it's early game phoenix, you will have the 20 marines to defend. If it's late game phoenix, you will have the ghosts for emp, and shooting them. If he previously went colossus, you will have vikings as well. Phoenix simply isn't a threat, atleast not in my experience. Though if you micro your tanks to target his Colossi/HT shouldn't your hellion/marine be good enough to deal with the zealots? Or are tanks simply not strong enough to counter Colossi/HT? In my mind this should work but once again I keep hearing marine tank doesn't do too well TvP. Cus if you have maybe 6050 min, 2500 gas, 121 supply 20 Tanks 18 Hellions 25 Marines It might be better than 6250 min, 2625 gas, 115 supply 15 Tanks 25 Hellions 10 Vikings You can get a few more tanks which might make a huge difference. I think Marines are better vs voids and carriers than vikings anyway which both do well against mech right? The biggest flaw in your two examples is that you're not taking in to account the time it takes to build 15-20 tanks. So while the pure marine/tank/hellion might be a better unit composition, it's unrealistic to get that many tanks until the very very late game. Also, and this is a big one, pure MTH at maxed supply is a PURE ground force, which means your army footprint is going to be HUGE, which decreases the effectiveness of your units, since at any given point in time, a significant portion of your army might not even be in range to attack until the chargelots are already in your face. Another reason is that you really need a LOT of hellions, they melt zealots, they buffer damage, they're fast harassing units, a few of them can roast an entire probe line or stray HTs. But if you have a low hellion count, and you still want to use them as harassing / sniping units, you won't have enough hellions left over as buffer units for your tanks. And finally, the size and speed of the hellion makes it far superior to the marine in terms of surviving / escaping protoss splash damage (colossus/ht). Marines not only have a lot less HP than hellions, but they are smaller and thus stack in tighter packs (and are slower, unless you stim, in which case you've already damaged yourself). I can't emphasize enough how squishy marines are, and how surprisingly sturdy hellions can be.
Alright, thanks for the awesome response I understand it a lot better now.
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EPT
