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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On August 22 2011 02:14 GleaM wrote: Has MC just figured out the cure to EMPs?! WhiteRa has been doing this for a long time already, not only integrating warpprism into his normal play (storm drops etc), but also keeping one with hts in his army to prevent emps. You should definitely check out his stream. | ||
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BlindSC2
United Kingdom435 Posts
When someone is able to fully utilise 300+ APM yea this is an amazing tactic, but right now on a select few can attempt this properly in an extremely small amount of situations (e.g, twilight/double forge style and extremely late colossi switch (25+ mins) AND a terran going full out balls to the wall bio so at most 1 reactorport). That said is there a link to a VOD/replay download of the game mentioned in the OP? ^_^ | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On August 22 2011 02:52 EliteReplay wrote: i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next... protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM. mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^ What he forgot was - meanwhile, constantly move your screen then you have to click and place every unit you produce,and keep up on crono use. (and for some reason the game is buggy as hell about warp ins, somehow Stalkers need 2x the actual room they take up to be warped in. This has been here since beta and hasn't been fixed!) Build and research times are designed with crono in mind and every time you miss a warp wave or crono you can never make that time up, every warp wave / research after that is pushed back. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
If you do everything right, the terran can still remove the shields of your whole army and run out of storms. So it's nowhere near a guaranteed win. If you fail and get the prism killed you...just..lose... | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:32 sleepingdog wrote: I think this could end up to "solve" PvT for the very, very highest level of play (remember: how PvZ was "solved" in BW...) If you do everything right, the terran can still remove the shields of your whole army and run out of storms. So it's nowhere near a guaranteed win. If you fail and get the prism killed you...just..lose... i disagree. I'm sure a LOT of people used this solution when EMP started becoming something Terrans used (me included). It's just that the terran has so many options to kill the warp prism (snipe, vikings, marines) all of which are typically readily available for Terran. Also what's stopping a Terran from just saving his EMP for when you drop the HT out of the warp prism...? That being said, HT in warp prism does indeed help vs EMP because it's not a 100% given that your HT will become useless after a single e+left click from a Terran. however i believe the best solution is still to just split up your army and not 1+a into the terran army. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On August 22 2011 02:14 GleaM wrote: Hey all, Masters P here, and I have been having a very tough time with PvT recently, because Terran players have discovered this unit called the ghost, which is, admittedly, a pretty good unit for a pretty good race ;-) But as I was watching the IEM MainStage match between MC and Puma on Terminus, I almost lost my head and clapped out loud here in the silent Penn State University computer lab! MC picked up and dropped High Templars out of a Warp Prism, which had the speed upgrade, to dodge EMPs. The only thing I wish MC would have done is invested in a second warp prism once he had gotten the speed upgrade for some DT harass or storm drops. But all the same. Has MC just figured out the cure to EMPs? With proper control could this at the very least force Terrans to invest in 6-10 ghosts to lay down EMPs instead of obliterating half of the hitpoints of the Protoss army with 2-4 ghosts? Would love to hear your thoughts!! Well if they tried to time their EMPs to hit your templar before you can pick them back up all of a sudden your most expensive units are floating around in an armorless ship with less HP than a marine without combat shields | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:49 Jayrod wrote: Well if they tried to time their EMPs to hit your templar before you can pick them back up all of a sudden your most expensive units are floating around in an armorless ship with less HP than a marine without combat shields that is my first thoughts... this is a cute tactic that is VERY situational... I don't play toss, but if I did, I would be very nervous all the time floating around so much gas in a paper plane. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:32 sleepingdog wrote: I think this could end up to "solve" PvT for the very, very highest level of play (remember: how PvZ was "solved" in BW...) If you do everything right, the terran can still remove the shields of your whole army and run out of storms. So it's nowhere near a guaranteed win. If you fail and get the prism killed you...just..lose... This isnt solving anything. Even with KA in the game the winrates were ~50%. HT's were apparently disposable at that time (ask any terran). Its a cute tactic but its extremely risky. Not game changing, but could win you a couple maps | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
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SCPlato
United States249 Posts
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SalsaShark
United States56 Posts
On August 22 2011 02:18 Welmu wrote: Only problem is that viking will shut down warp prisms completely and warp prisms are very fragile also so you need to be super careful. I would say that it is kinda situational to use warp prism + ht combo, but super cool tho :> Valid point for sure, but shuttles were really weak so you had to be super careful when you had reavers in them, and reaver drops were a staple in protoss strategy. I agree, though, it is super cool :D I can't wait to see more pros doing this to see if it catches on or gets shut down | ||
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Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
On August 23 2011 08:19 SalsaShark wrote: Valid point for sure, but shuttles were really weak so you had to be super careful when you had reavers in them, and reaver drops were a staple in protoss strategy. I agree, though, it is super cool :D I can't wait to see more pros doing this to see if it catches on or gets shut down yea but in bw terran or zerg didnt have a 10 range AA unit | ||
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lyrlian
Netherlands257 Posts
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GGPope
Australia367 Posts
Those things are frighteningly fast, though, and more people should definitely start using them to benefit their poor slow templar. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
There are people posting saying 'snipe the prism' in the context of the ghost ability. You can't. People just refer to 'snipe the prism' by using a small subset of units to target fire it down. | ||
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paper121
50 Posts
Assume the base amount of economy needed to counter warp prisms from after the one and only factory being built excluding tech lab cost FOR THORS: 1 thor 500 min 325 gas 2 thors 800 min 525 gas 3 thors 1100 min 725 gas 5 thors 1700 min 1125 gas FOR VIKINGS with NO reactor: 1 viking 300 min 175 gas 2 viking 450 min 250 gas 3 viking 600 min 325 gas 4 viking 750 min 400 gas .... 8 viking 1350 min 700 gas FOR VIKINGS with reactor: 2 viking 500 min 300 gas 4 viking 800 min 450 gas 6 viking 1100 min 600 gas 8 viking 1400 min 750 gas Simply changing it from armored to light could be very beneficial in the PvT matchup. Currently for 1 warp prism, 1 thor 5 volleys 2 thors 3 volleys 3 thors 2 volleys ... 5 thors 1 volley 1 viking 4 volleys 2 vikings 2 volleys 3 vikings 2 volleys 4 vikings 1 volley After change to Light 1 thor 3 volleys 2 thor 2 volleys 3 thor 1 volley 1 viking 8 shots 2 viking 4 shots 3 viking 3 shots 4 viking 2 shots ... 8 viking 1 shot through the analysis of these numbers, we see that vikings are the natural choice in countering warp prisms as they are far more cost effective than thors. With the change to light thors will not become far stronger as a counter because the cost effectiveness is very similar to that of using vikings. tl;dr vikings with ghost are too cost effective in countering warp prism play, a simple change of warp prism to light could help by making warp prisms being able to take 2 shots from 4 vikings instead of 1 while the cost effectiveness of thors as a counter would not increase dramatically. of course adding more shield and or health would help too.  | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I would say the chance of getting the prism with vikings is as high as the chance of blink stalkers getting the vikings. But hts at your expos hts in the prism ... if you lose it with the hts it will get pretty evil since you will have to pull your 200 energy hts from the expos before engaging. But we have a similar situation in bw in pvp with reaver vs reaver ... somone loosing the shuttle with the reaver had to run for the hills. I guess at lower levels (everything except gm) its okay to just spread hts. But its always good to master the speed prism. I use it alot as toss and love it, especially terrans often have no answer against the speed prism. If you want to use it with your army its important that its always covered by your army. (so between your bases and your army) Let it follow your behind units (generally the sentrys but stalkers are fine as well) main army group never ... (its to fast for that). And against bio ... never ever pylon mode. Thats like being in grid and pressing morph banelings when you only have banelings selected. And the person saying bw had no 10 range anti air... hello goliath. And hello Paperplane that was faster then the speed shuttle. So bw anti air was way way better. (but also not needed) and science vessels. The projectil was pretty slow, though way more powerful. I wonder why it was only used against arbiters. the ht could use up all his energy before the emp would hit including only storming the vessel to death, also getting it past the dragoons might be pretty hard heh. Anyway back to the prism its a nice thing to use, even early game. If your opponent gets out a viking you already got ahead by just building the prism, unless you wanted to go for colossi. (you also can use it as an early obs heh to scout the terran base take some zeals/stalkers with you and grab a mule and you even got out the money.) And remember its a mobile pylon ... as long as its out no expansion of the terran is save. The most important thing though is warp in at save positions and not near the opponents base heh. And i would say 2 200energy hts are enough in the prism, 3 are of course saver. But normally only 2 storms have to hit and the marines are gone, and marauders have nothing to say even against shieldless zealots. edit: using it for the ht build it can be seen as a support to transition into colossi. (making it saver to get the tech as emps aren't that evil against your hts) oh and changing it to light, make the terran glee as he can snipe it with ghosts. No not snipe but the normal attack that does 20 against light ;p. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
I'm not too concerned with the supposed vikings counter since if your using HT they won't make vikings as it's not really worth making a useless unit in the hope of sniping the prism. The argument that they will have vikings already if you have colossi is moot since if you have colossi you won't need the prism in the first place since colossi will melt ghosts. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
Whilst emp may be good, it's the only way for terran to deal with zealot archon and templar. Most people seem to be forgetting that feedback counters EMP quite well cost per cost, as toss can easily replace the templar with a single warpin, whereass terran has to invest 45s of rax time and rally time before a ghost can get out, and that ghost will have a single EMP and then probably die, unlike templars, so trading 1 templar for 1 ghost is definitely worth it, even if you don't kill the ghost and just drain its energy you prevent terran from engaging for a good minute or two. | ||
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