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Hey all,
Masters P here, and I have been having a very tough time with PvT recently, because Terran players have discovered this unit called the ghost, which is, admittedly, a pretty good unit for a pretty good race ;-)
But as I was watching the IEM MainStage match between MC and Puma on Terminus, I almost lost my head and clapped out loud here in the silent Penn State University computer lab! MC picked up and dropped High Templars out of a Warp Prism, which had the speed upgrade, to dodge EMPs. The only thing I wish MC would have done is invested in a second warp prism once he had gotten the speed upgrade for some DT harass or storm drops. But all the same.
Has MC just figured out the cure to EMPs? With proper control could this at the very least force Terrans to invest in 6-10 ghosts to lay down EMPs instead of obliterating half of the hitpoints of the Protoss army with 2-4 ghosts?
Would love to hear your thoughts!!
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Only problem is that viking will shut down warp prisms completely and warp prisms are very fragile also so you need to be super careful. I would say that it is kinda situational to use warp prism + ht combo, but super cool tho :>
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It's good and helps protoss dodge emp's although I'd like to see how different things would be if puma built 1-2 vikings, with there long range the warp prism would be vulnerable to being sniped.
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It is more of a situational gamble more than anything else. Warp prism are so fragile and versus terrans who have the easiest time killing flying units, its not worth the risk.
The counter to ghosts is still splitting up your units and proper micro along with some scouting observers to try and feedback first.
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I think it would be fair if you changed the title into : "PvT Warp Prism HT Micro -HerO- ", because MC himself said, that he started to use it after he saw his team mate HerO doing it on ladder/custom games. He said that after last game vs Select, in interview with Mr.Bitter on IEM main stage.
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I think it might be good, but warp prisms are easily sniped by vikings i think. But i play terran not protoss, so I don't know that much about protoss micro.
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Hasn't this been around a while? I remember HuK doing it on his stream about a month ago, i think...
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Huk was doing this before, and the idea of this has been there since BW (slow AoE units aka Reavers loaded up into Shuttles).
It is definitely worth it if you can do it, and have practiced it so you can micro well, but of course that also means less apm for macro and other things. It's up to you, and depends on the situation. However, the real solution would just to get Colossi. Because as we all know, Vikings > Colossi and HT > Viking and Ghost > HT, but using a warp prism can lessen the disadvantage the protoss has when it is a HT vs Ghost battle. Really though, since you need Robo Bay for both WP speed and Colossi, it makes sense that WP (Colossi tech basically) should help against Ghosts (and with really good micro, possibly turn the tide of battle to the Protoss' side despite Ghost > HT).
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id love too see something similar with infestors, because zerg gets drop anyways and has alot of overlords to hide the overlord with the infestors
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It requires a very high level of micro to pull off, which doesn't apply to the vast majority of us. Otherwise, the prism will just get sniped in half a second (because marines are so good).
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next...
protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM.
mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^
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On August 22 2011 02:52 EliteReplay wrote:
i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next...
protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM.
mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^
Lol, no need to bash Terran, their micro and multitasking can be very impressive. I do agree that the warp prism - Templar play is an advanced tactic that is beyond many of us mere mortals.
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On August 22 2011 02:52 EliteReplay wrote:
i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next...
protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM.
mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^
not at all biased(i'm joking, you're completely wrong and should go post somewhere else)
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On August 22 2011 02:52 EliteReplay wrote:
i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next...
protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM.
mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^
you do realise you can take that sentance switch out protoss words for terran ones pretty effortlessly.
and then toss just 1A'a with few ff or tt... right?
On the warp prism use, it seems really micro intensive but it was working fine until speed kicked in an it charged head first into marines :S
I also thought that fight was going to be lopsided as crap in the other direction but upgrades and the prism dying along with cargo kind of changed that i guess.
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HuK has been doing this like 3 months ago on streams. The only problem is that if your wp gets sniped there goes your entire engagement...
The best way to really tackle this is to drop the hts before you commit, but otherwise its just a really gimmicky strategy which can really screw you over beyond recovery for the slightest messup.
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On August 22 2011 02:52 EliteReplay wrote:
i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next...
protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM.
mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^
Well its certanly exaggerated, but not at all false. the protoss 1a myth emerged when all protoss was doing was collossus, but it does not apply to gateway styles. I agree, splitting the high templar requires more skill than clicking on a location to epm, frankly emp does more damage, is instant, removes energy and has a larger area of effect. Blizzard designed ghosts to be the counter to ht, ironically ghost are more dangerous than hts...
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Putting high templars in warp prisms to save them from EMPs and being sniped is not a new concept, its just that if they have any sort of anti air (which is likely since vikings and marines are common) the warp prism will die in a second
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I don't think this is really viable in any league besides high masters to grandmasters because most people won't have the apm to micro the warp prism while still controlling their army properly. Also it's incredibly risky because the warp prism is made of glass and could be easily picked off, so unless the prism gets like a health increase I don't think it'll be commonly used.
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I saw White-Ra did this a lot on his stream. This is a very 'micro'-demanding tactic. It is great fun to see pros doing it.
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I first saw HuK do it, vs MVP. So i've been doing it since. Not smart if they have vikings, obv. But if they only have two, often it will just be focusing the colo or smth. Cute little tactic, but I feel so safe / not worried when i have my ht in a ship
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On August 22 2011 02:14 GleaM wrote:
Has MC just figured out the cure to EMPs?!
WhiteRa has been doing this for a long time already, not only integrating warpprism into his normal play (storm drops etc), but also keeping one with hts in his army to prevent emps. You should definitely check out his stream.
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WhiteRa also did this a fair bit on his stream, as well as more recently using immortals once or twice (after Tyler mentioned it on SotG I think)
When someone is able to fully utilise 300+ APM yea this is an amazing tactic, but right now on a select few can attempt this properly in an extremely small amount of situations (e.g, twilight/double forge style and extremely late colossi switch (25+ mins) AND a terran going full out balls to the wall bio so at most 1 reactorport).
That said is there a link to a VOD/replay download of the game mentioned in the OP? ^_^
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On August 22 2011 02:52 EliteReplay wrote:
i think will be usefull with a buff in shield of hearth otherwise... read next...
protoss the micro intense race, this are the requirement before engaging Proper FF, Guardian Shield, Spread army (avoid Emp), Control your Stalkers focusing on important units, Warp prism drop in the middle of the battle and Feedback + Storm THIS REQUIRES INSANE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND APM.
mean while Terran 1A+Stim ^^
What he forgot was - meanwhile, constantly move your screen then you have to click and place every unit you produce,and keep up on crono use. (and for some reason the game is buggy as hell about warp ins, somehow Stalkers need 2x the actual room they take up to be warped in. This has been here since beta and hasn't been fixed!) Build and research times are designed with crono in mind and every time you miss a warp wave or crono you can never make that time up, every warp wave / research after that is pushed back.
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I think this could end up to "solve" PvT for the very, very highest level of play (remember: how PvZ was "solved" in BW...)
If you do everything right, the terran can still remove the shields of your whole army and run out of storms. So it's nowhere near a guaranteed win. If you fail and get the prism killed you...just..lose...
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On August 22 2011 06:32 sleepingdog wrote:
I think this could end up to "solve" PvT for the very, very highest level of play (remember: how PvZ was "solved" in BW...)
If you do everything right, the terran can still remove the shields of your whole army and run out of storms. So it's nowhere near a guaranteed win. If you fail and get the prism killed you...just..lose...
i disagree. I'm sure a LOT of people used this solution when EMP started becoming something Terrans used (me included). It's just that the terran has so many options to kill the warp prism (snipe, vikings, marines) all of which are typically readily available for Terran. Also what's stopping a Terran from just saving his EMP for when you drop the HT out of the warp prism...?
That being said, HT in warp prism does indeed help vs EMP because it's not a 100% given that your HT will become useless after a single e+left click from a Terran. however i believe the best solution is still to just split up your army and not 1+a into the terran army.
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On August 22 2011 02:14 GleaM wrote:
Hey all,
Masters P here, and I have been having a very tough time with PvT recently, because Terran players have discovered this unit called the ghost, which is, admittedly, a pretty good unit for a pretty good race ;-)
But as I was watching the IEM MainStage match between MC and Puma on Terminus, I almost lost my head and clapped out loud here in the silent Penn State University computer lab! MC picked up and dropped High Templars out of a Warp Prism, which had the speed upgrade, to dodge EMPs. The only thing I wish MC would have done is invested in a second warp prism once he had gotten the speed upgrade for some DT harass or storm drops. But all the same.
Has MC just figured out the cure to EMPs? With proper control could this at the very least force Terrans to invest in 6-10 ghosts to lay down EMPs instead of obliterating half of the hitpoints of the Protoss army with 2-4 ghosts?
Would love to hear your thoughts!!
Well if they tried to time their EMPs to hit your templar before you can pick them back up all of a sudden your most expensive units are floating around in an armorless ship with less HP than a marine without combat shields
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On August 22 2011 06:49 Jayrod wrote:
Well if they tried to time their EMPs to hit your templar before you can pick them back up all of a sudden your most expensive units are floating around in an armorless ship with less HP than a marine without combat shields
that is my first thoughts... this is a cute tactic that is VERY situational... I don't play toss, but if I did, I would be very nervous all the time floating around so much gas in a paper plane.
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On August 22 2011 06:32 sleepingdog wrote:
I think this could end up to "solve" PvT for the very, very highest level of play (remember: how PvZ was "solved" in BW...)
If you do everything right, the terran can still remove the shields of your whole army and run out of storms. So it's nowhere near a guaranteed win. If you fail and get the prism killed you...just..lose...
This isnt solving anything. Even with KA in the game the winrates were ~50%. HT's were apparently disposable at that time (ask any terran). Its a cute tactic but its extremely risky. Not game changing, but could win you a couple maps
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I remember this tactic being used in broodwar. How were high templar balanced against science vessels in broodwar? Seems like it would have been even more difficult to keep energy on your templar against a science vessel since it flies.
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it can be affective, but as said a few times before, it is very fragile. You will notice in that game the casters are looking at the battle and the warp prism dies so fast during one of the engagements that they don't actually see it die and are asking each other where it went. Shows that even a player with the skill of MC can still lose a warp prism with good control. It is a big investment to lose as well. 4 storms for a battle, 600 gas and 400 minerals plus losing your AOE capability which is vital against Terran if you are going that route over a lot of colossus.
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On August 22 2011 02:18 Welmu wrote:
Only problem is that viking will shut down warp prisms completely and warp prisms are very fragile also so you need to be super careful. I would say that it is kinda situational to use warp prism + ht combo, but super cool tho :>
Valid point for sure, but shuttles were really weak so you had to be super careful when you had reavers in them, and reaver drops were a staple in protoss strategy. I agree, though, it is super cool :D I can't wait to see more pros doing this to see if it catches on or gets shut down
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On August 23 2011 08:19 SalsaShark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:18 Welmu wrote:
Only problem is that viking will shut down warp prisms completely and warp prisms are very fragile also so you need to be super careful. I would say that it is kinda situational to use warp prism + ht combo, but super cool tho :> Valid point for sure, but shuttles were really weak so you had to be super careful when you had reavers in them, and reaver drops were a staple in protoss strategy. I agree, though, it is super cool :D I can't wait to see more pros doing this to see if it catches on or gets shut down
yea but in bw terran or zerg didnt have a 10 range AA unit
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I saw Liquid'Hero do this on his stream. very cool. He was chasing the terran kiting terran army with his own army+warp prism, when he owuld catch up with his prism he would drop 1/2 storms on the bio ball and continue to do so till his prism was empty, was a really neat trick!
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It's a great tactic and people should definitely use it if they have the APM, but it obviously requires very very careful control and your tech path has to steer your opponent away from vikings or the poor warp prism is going to die instantly.
Those things are frighteningly fast, though, and more people should definitely start using them to benefit their poor slow templar.
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I'll do this when warp prisms get hardened shields. Till then I'd shit myself having 600 gas flying around in a paper airplane.
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You can't 'Snipe' (Ghost ability) a warp prism. It's not biological.
There are people posting saying 'snipe the prism' in the context of the ghost ability. You can't.
People just refer to 'snipe the prism' by using a small subset of units to target fire it down.
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well the issue is that a ghost can also just emp the already flimsy warp prism so thats 40 effective health gone instantly, the 100hp left can dealt with 2-4 vikings which is very affordable and if your fielding collosi there will be a good viking count anyway. For a while P may get away with this strategy and do good damage, but eventually T will realize its strength and target warp prisms with higher priority in engagements and in general with without needing to stray too far from common unit compositions already in place of the matchup. T has after all seen the the most in drop play and counter drop play. Warp Prism needs some sort of change.
Assume the base amount of economy needed to counter warp prisms from after the one and only factory being built excluding tech lab cost
FOR THORS:
1 thor 500 min 325 gas
2 thors 800 min 525 gas
3 thors 1100 min 725 gas
5 thors 1700 min 1125 gas
FOR VIKINGS with NO reactor:
1 viking 300 min 175 gas
2 viking 450 min 250 gas
3 viking 600 min 325 gas
4 viking 750 min 400 gas
....
8 viking 1350 min 700 gas
FOR VIKINGS with reactor:
2 viking 500 min 300 gas
4 viking 800 min 450 gas
6 viking 1100 min 600 gas
8 viking 1400 min 750 gas
Simply changing it from armored to light could be very beneficial in the PvT matchup. Currently for 1 warp prism,
1 thor 5 volleys
2 thors 3 volleys
3 thors 2 volleys
...
5 thors 1 volley
1 viking 4 volleys
2 vikings 2 volleys
3 vikings 2 volleys
4 vikings 1 volley
After change to Light
1 thor 3 volleys
2 thor 2 volleys
3 thor 1 volley
1 viking 8 shots
2 viking 4 shots
3 viking 3 shots
4 viking 2 shots
...
8 viking 1 shot
through the analysis of these numbers, we see that vikings are the natural choice in countering warp prisms as they are far more cost effective than thors. With the change to light thors will not become far stronger as a counter because the cost effectiveness is very similar to that of using vikings.
tl;dr
vikings with ghost are too cost effective in countering warp prism play, a simple change of warp prism to light could help by making warp prisms being able to take 2 shots from 4 vikings instead of 1 while the cost effectiveness of thors as a counter would not increase dramatically.
of course adding more shield and or health would help too. 
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thats basically out of bw. Its something you can do if you have the apm for it. And for the people saying its easy for a terran to get the warp prims, only if it flys directly into your marines. get 2 vikings they will never ever get a microed speed prism down. get 4 yeah you can do it... but you just lost 4 medivacs pre battle and will lose the fight unimportant on how your emps will do.
I would say the chance of getting the prism with vikings is as high as the chance of blink stalkers getting the vikings.
But hts at your expos hts in the prism ... if you lose it with the hts it will get pretty evil since you will have to pull your 200 energy hts from the expos before engaging. But we have a similar situation in bw in pvp with reaver vs reaver ... somone loosing the shuttle with the reaver had to run for the hills.
I guess at lower levels (everything except gm) its okay to just spread hts. But its always good to master the speed prism. I use it alot as toss and love it, especially terrans often have no answer against the speed prism.
If you want to use it with your army its important that its always covered by your army. (so between your bases and your army) Let it follow your behind units (generally the sentrys but stalkers are fine as well) main army group never ... (its to fast for that). And against bio ... never ever pylon mode. Thats like being in grid and pressing morph banelings when you only have banelings selected.
And the person saying bw had no 10 range anti air... hello goliath. And hello Paperplane that was faster then the speed shuttle. So bw anti air was way way better. (but also not needed)
and science vessels. The projectil was pretty slow, though way more powerful. I wonder why it was only used against arbiters. the ht could use up all his energy before the emp would hit including only storming the vessel to death, also getting it past the dragoons might be pretty hard heh.
Anyway back to the prism its a nice thing to use, even early game. If your opponent gets out a viking you already got ahead by just building the prism, unless you wanted to go for colossi. (you also can use it as an early obs heh to scout the terran base take some zeals/stalkers with you and grab a mule and you even got out the money.) And remember its a mobile pylon ... as long as its out no expansion of the terran is save.
The most important thing though is warp in at save positions and not near the opponents base heh.
And i would say 2 200energy hts are enough in the prism, 3 are of course saver. But normally only 2 storms have to hit and the marines are gone, and marauders have nothing to say even against shieldless zealots.
edit: using it for the ht build it can be seen as a support to transition into colossi. (making it saver to get the tech as emps aren't that evil against your hts)
oh and changing it to light, make the terran glee as he can snipe it with ghosts. No not snipe but the normal attack that does 20 against light ;p.
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I've been testing this out. It's more effective than I thought since it immediately positions your HT to storm. What this means is that you can actually storm kiting bio armies with proper warp prism usage. Before your slow HT would never catch up to a kiting bio army. There is a certain rhythm to it as well. I hotkey the 4 HT in the prism and as you perform a drop I hit 5t5t5t5t and it syncs up perfectly with storm cooldown, though for most engagements I've found following up the storms with feedbacks on the medivacs to be more effective.
I'm not too concerned with the supposed vikings counter since if your using HT they won't make vikings as it's not really worth making a useless unit in the hope of sniping the prism. The argument that they will have vikings already if you have colossi is moot since if you have colossi you won't need the prism in the first place since colossi will melt ghosts.
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Huk has done it, so has white-ra, and many other protoss players, it's a good idea and can be super frustrating to deal with, works with archons as well, and is more effective than trying to hide the archons in the back.
Whilst emp may be good, it's the only way for terran to deal with zealot archon and templar. Most people seem to be forgetting that feedback counters EMP quite well cost per cost, as toss can easily replace the templar with a single warpin, whereass terran has to invest 45s of rax time and rally time before a ghost can get out, and that ghost will have a single EMP and then probably die, unlike templars, so trading 1 templar for 1 ghost is definitely worth it, even if you don't kill the ghost and just drain its energy you prevent terran from engaging for a good minute or two.
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If you have speed upgrade for the prism and you're super fast, vikings won't be a problem. It'll be hard to control as hell but still. I have no idea why people haven't used this more...a year of SC2 and it has finally been utilized a few times by a pro.
That said WP should be used to pick up wounded colossi too, that would be so cool to see. Imagine having speed upgrade and the warpprism directly behind colossi( so vikings can't snipe it without getting too close to the stalkers) and picking up colossi while vikings focus fire one. That would make them waste shots and you'd delay the death of the colossi ^^
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On August 23 2011 14:26 Andr3 wrote:
If you have speed upgrade for the prism and you're super fast, vikings won't be a problem. It'll be hard to control as hell but still. I have no idea why people haven't used this more...a year of SC2 and it has finally been utilized a few times by a pro.
That said WP should be used to pick up wounded colossi too, that would be so cool to see. Imagine having speed upgrade and the warpprism directly behind colossi( so vikings can't snipe it without getting too close to the stalkers) and picking up colossi while vikings focus fire one. That would make them waste shots and you'd delay the death of the colossi ^^
Even with the speed upgrade, the sight range of a warpprism is 10, while viking range is 9. It's like flying non-magic boxed muta's around thors in terms of risk, because losing a warp prism with even 2 high energy HT's is like losing half a dozen muta's to a thor volley.
I'd love to see a change to unarmoured status with 1 base armour. It'd take 8 viking volleys to bring it down then, and wouldn't take additional damage from thor's either. While a warp prism isn't weak if you look at raw stats, it's mainly that if you have just 1 or 2 colossi in your army, terran will already have enough vikings to 2shot the warpprism.
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If you properly position the warpprism(behind the colossi as much as possible) you can pickup the colossi without being shot by the vikings. The radius of the "load units" isn't that small. I'm not saying it would be easy, it's unrealistic to think so. But it is possible to pick up colossi, and move out before the viking shoots you. You'd just have to have some really sick control...
But yes I agree with the change to armor type of the WP, currently it really dies too fast..
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On August 23 2011 10:31 FeyFey wrote:
oh and changing it to light, make the terran glee as he can snipe it with ghosts. No not snipe but the normal attack that does 20 against light ;p.
But the main thing you are forgetting is that the warp prism is supposed to be in the back of the army far past the 6 range of ghosts (the reason for thor and viking counter is their high anti air range at 10 and 9 respectively, which will hit where HT need to be as the range for storm is 9)
It would be far more risky to the T to need to bring 200 min 100 gas ghosts to the front where they can easily die just to kill a warp prism that. plus the economy of it is actually worse
1 ghost 5 shots
2 ghost 3 shots
3 ghost 2 shots
5 ghost 1 shot
you would need to spend an additional 800min and 400 gas (assuming 1 ghost is already on the field) to be able to achieve what 750min and 400 gas of vikings. and if the P has collosi you would have the vikings anyway.
of course unarmored would be the best buff, but simply changing to light would in my opinion make warp prisms strong enough
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EPT
