The Hellion Tank Ghost build is a powerful LATE GAME transition (3-4 bases) thought of by me in attempt to change the metagame of TvZ from marine tank medivac. It was significantly much easier to deal with zergs back in season one when most zergs never even thought of going infestors. However once explored, it has proven to be extremely powerful as a unit that can practically counter the entire terran arsenal on its own. As a result, the hellion tank ghost mix was designed and has been shown to counter practically any zerg unit mix as well. Please watch the demonstration video as provided
The units
These units are amazing at taking out huge amounts of zerglings and also acts as a front line defense for soaking up a bit of damage before they can finally reach the tanks and ghosts. Hellions are also used to constantly harass your opponents 3rd and 4th.
These units are the core damage dealers that once in critical mass can practically wipe out zerglings, banelings, roach, hydras as well as softening ultras quite a bit on their own.
The ghosts act as specialist unit that counter the extremely expensive zerg units that can ruin any terran push. EMP is used for neutralizing infestors while snipe is used to take out overseers that provide detection as well as broodlords. Note in most cases, if you take out the overseer, there is no other way for zergs to be able to attack your ghosts. Think of them as a supermarine that have no counters...with a sniper rifle.
Typically thors are the supposed counter to mutalisks. Unfortunately, with the discovery of the magic box, their role in AA has been severly limited. Simply put, if your thors are taken out, any AtG units will stop your push even though you won the ground war. If you are also massing on thors, then smart zergs will react accordingly and either go broodlords, mass roaches, or infestors to counter.
The obvious counter to broodlords would be vikings, however, with infestors, their role becomes diminished as fungal growth will absolutely destroy them. Not to mention that once zergs see you building way too many vikings. They may tech switch to a group dominant force to completely nullify your viking investment.
Ghosts are a great substitute for dealing with mutalisks when doing your push. Snipe practically gives the equivalent range of thor's GtA yet at the same time grants a much larger burst damage since it is spammable. However unlike thors, they are able to kill both broodlords AND nullify infestors-both of which units counter thors.
Now looking at the viking, they cost 150/75 while the ghost costs 200/100. The viking is only slightly cheaper yet fulfills only the role as an anti-armored air unit. Ghosts are versatile units capable of anti-air, anti-light, anti-caster....WITH INVIS. I believe the argument is very clear here
Well overseer has 11 detection range, snipe has only 10 range. Also pro tip, you can self detonate banelings to kill cloaked units like ghost or dark templar. Ghost might be awsome, but if you get attacked while not focused, the few snipes you miss can easily loose you the game. Also @ 3:09 you would have lost if it was not the zergs first time he ever attemped to do a magic box.
It works sorta, and i find it interesting that both bio and mech can transition into this (add lots of ghosts and some hellions for bio, cut down thors and add ghosts on mech), though of course the ghosts would be 3/3 for bio but mech would have tanks and hellions at 3/3
Anyways, I think you really should still have at least a couple Thors around, simply to force him to split his mutas or risk losing all of them and to control space and to tank a bit because if he has a lot of Broodlords (which is common, and by a lot i mean like 15-20 unlike in the video), you'll lose more ghosts than necessary, unless if you started with bio and already have up'd Ghosts and medivacs and maybe even some marines.
However, the problem is when the Broodlords attack, there will be massive splash on your army... if you unsiege though, the Roaches (if he massed them) will rape your army. So really from my experience you still need Thors (if you were meching).
Unless if the opponent is going for Ultralisks, I would say Thor Hellion Ghost is much better. Thors are less gas heavy than Tanks too, and do well against Roaches when in max'd numbers and keep you safer vs mass Muta surprises, and if he catches you with Broodlords off guard you won't lose your entire army and usually the game (as in, before you have enough ghosts if at all for the BLs).
I definitely agree though, that it's better just to get Ghosts only rather than Vikings or both Ghosts and Vikings (talking about mech at least)
On August 20 2011 06:40 Sea_Food wrote: Well overseer has 11 detection range, snipe has only 10 range. Also pro tip, you can self detonate banelings to kill cloaked units like ghost or dark templar. Ghost might be awsome, but if you get attacked while not focused, the few snipes you miss can easily loose you the game. Also @ 3:09 you would have lost if it was not the zergs first time he ever attemped to do a magic box.
Yes, while the overseer does have a higher range, arguably I can say that there is no way overseers constantly going to stay 1 range away from your ghosts. Never have I seen zergs attempt to micro their overseer to try to avoid death.
The self detonate baneling, yes I believe thats the main problem with this composition. It is really important to micro your ghosts so that they should avoid the banelings. In the video, I should have kept my ghosts behind my tanks as I almost lost all of them. Positioning is extremely important here
And as for the mutalisks, yes he did clump up his mutas, however I didn't have cloak researched. Arguably I could say that If i had cloak, I would've held that off regardless
On August 20 2011 07:00 Nightsz wrote: Yes, while the overseer does have a higher range, arguably I can say that there is no way overseers constantly going to stay 1 range away from your ghosts. Never have I seen zergs attempt to micro their overseer to try to avoid death.
The self detonate baneling, yes I believe thats the main problem with this composition. It is really important to micro your ghosts so that they should avoid the banelings. In the video, I should have kept my ghosts behind my tanks as I almost lost all of them. Positioning is extremely important here
And as for the mutalisks, yes he did clump up his mutas, however I didn't have cloak researched. Arguably I could say that If i had cloak, I would've held that off regardless
Definitely agree, the overseer is not going to be paid attention to and 1 range is not much at all. Plus Overseers have pretty slow acceleration don't they?
Honestly I cannot fully understand why it works in your replays. It seems like Master players can get away with things that that would be punished immediately in lower leagues.
Without Marauders if the Zerg player just goes mass roach he can run over an equal investment of gas into tanks. Without MMM drops how do you take out expansions before the Zerg can drone up?
And how you manage to take out Ultras without even having upgrades for your military - I see it working in your replay but it does not make sense. It take 12 snipes to kill an Ultra so Ghosts hardly seem cost efficient vs Ultras.
And what would happen if your opponent went mass Mutas instead of just 5-10? I honestly do to not think it possible to fight 20+ mutas with just Ghosts, no one can snipe that fast.
On August 20 2011 07:47 MockHamill wrote: Honestly I cannot fully understand why it works in your replays. It seems like Master players can get away with things that that would be punished immediately in lower leagues.
Without Marauders if the Zerg player just goes mass roach he can run over an equal investment of gas into tanks. Without MMM drops how do you take out expansions before the Zerg can drone up?
And how you manage to take out Ultras without even having upgrades for your military - I see it working in your replay but it does not make sense. It take 12 snipes to kill an Ultra so Ghosts hardly seem cost efficient vs Ultras.
And what would happen if your opponent went mass Mutas instead of just 5-10? I honestly do to not think it possible to fight 20+ mutas with just Ghosts, no one can snipe that fast.
Im not gonna lie, Im a REALLY terrible player. So I wrote this guide as a general strategy after you've managed to secure 3-4 bases. This isn't somehow you should transition to straight off 1-2 base. Basically this is just something you should do after you somehow managed to push towards the late game phase where you are constantly able to replenish your units
TAKING OUT FULLY UPGRADED ULTRALISKS ONLY SHOW HOW POTENTIALLY POWERFUL THIS CAN BE RIGHT? LOL
As for mutalisks, you have to note that ghosts are extremely cost efficient vs mutalisks even with their auto attack. And remember, as long as you can snipe the overseer, you're ghosts are literally invulnerable cept to banelings and fungal growth
while im not quite sure that you were the one who thought this up, unless your listed in Canada but actually live in korea, but i suppose why beat a dead horse
Either way, id have to agree with you that Ghost Mech is probably the best composition late game. Bio-Mech is good as well, but once you get a critical mass of ghosts and tanks, there isnt really too much that zerg can do except throw units at you, lose them, then roll over and die.
But as stated above, i do believe that you should throw in just 2-3 thors if there are ANY mutos AT ALL or B-Lords, jsut becuase if his/her mutos are clumped, he instantly loses all of him, which forces him use APM on splitting his mutos instead of microing the rest of his army
Nicely done, i realize that it can be kinda hard to write a guide for a composition that really only works in the late game. Thanks for your work! <3
On August 20 2011 07:47 MockHamill wrote: Honestly I cannot fully understand why it works in your replays. It seems like Master players can get away with things that that would be punished immediately in lower leagues.
Without Marauders if the Zerg player just goes mass roach he can run over an equal investment of gas into tanks. Without MMM drops how do you take out expansions before the Zerg can drone up?
And how you manage to take out Ultras without even having upgrades for your military - I see it working in your replay but it does not make sense. It take 12 snipes to kill an Ultra so Ghosts hardly seem cost efficient vs Ultras.
And what would happen if your opponent went mass Mutas instead of just 5-10? I honestly do to not think it possible to fight 20+ mutas with just Ghosts, no one can snipe that fast.
You can never get enough roaches to have equal gas amount to a Terran using tanks. Tanks cost 125 gas, roaches cost 25. Tanks are 3 supply roaches are 2. Therefore, a maxed army of tanks is worth 8250 gas whilst the roaches is worth 2500, so your argument of roaches>tanks is completely invalid.
You don't need to stop the Zerg from droning up, you just have to split the map and fortify, knowing your cost effectiveness will win the game.
With a critical mass of tanks, no zerg ground army in the game can touch it. Not even ultras especially with ghost support. Also, mass ghosts > mass muta. Ghosts are way better vs mutas than marines are. They have a ton of hp, and not even including snipe, destroy mutas in a fight. Add medivac support and they are untouchable vs mutas. Did you know they 2 shot workers?
On August 20 2011 07:47 MockHamill wrote: Honestly I cannot fully understand why it works in your replays. It seems like Master players can get away with things that that would be punished immediately in lower leagues.
Without Marauders if the Zerg player just goes mass roach he can run over an equal investment of gas into tanks. Without MMM drops how do you take out expansions before the Zerg can drone up?
And how you manage to take out Ultras without even having upgrades for your military - I see it working in your replay but it does not make sense. It take 12 snipes to kill an Ultra so Ghosts hardly seem cost efficient vs Ultras.
And what would happen if your opponent went mass Mutas instead of just 5-10? I honestly do to not think it possible to fight 20+ mutas with just Ghosts, no one can snipe that fast.
You can never get enough roaches to have equal gas amount to a Terran using tanks. Tanks cost 125 gas, roaches cost 25. Tanks are 3 supply roaches are 2. Therefore, a maxed army of tanks is worth 8250 gas whilst the roaches is worth 2500, so your argument of roaches>tanks is completely invalid.
You don't need to stop the Zerg from droning up, you just have to split the map and fortify, knowing your cost effectiveness will win the game.
With a critical mass of tanks, no zerg ground army in the game can touch it. Not even ultras especially with ghost support. Also, mass ghosts > mass muta. Ghosts are way better vs mutas than marines are. They have a ton of hp, and not even including snipe, destroy mutas in a fight. Add medivac support and they are untouchable vs mutas. Did you know they 2 shot workers?
Or that they do 20 damage with their normal attack, and 1 more range than Marines? ^_^ Or how time efficient they are for their value? 2 supply for a very strong combat-spellcaster unit in only 40 seconds. I just hope that Ghosts' production time won't need to be produced in the future if Zergs start complaining about a potential new trend of using Ghosts (likely), I love using ghosts (and nukes).
And yes when you play mech it is very different than bio, it's not just a simple change of units. It's a completely different style. You have to turtle and be super defensive, and try to split the map like he said. With bio, you do drops and all that because you're utilizing bio's strengths: mobility in drops and strength in small numbers. With Mech, you use its strength in raw power to take half the map, trying to stop the zerg from breaking you. Unless you're going for a thor hellion force, which also works, but is quite different; usually you take a fast third and rush to a 200/200 or 140 ish army and attack him around 15 minutes and hope he hasn't prepared enough.
A strictly Ghost/Tank/Hellion composition would be incredibly vulnerable to mass mutas, which Zerg should already have in play at this point in the game. I'm not really sure what your plan to force Zerg off Mutas would be. You need either Marines or Thors (or preferably a mix of both) to nullify the high Muta count that your opponent should have or your Ghosts can never take off in power.
Not saying that these units aren't good in late-game TvZ, but I think sticking strictly to this composition without having several Thors and/or Marines involved is ignoring the obvious.
so basically i think at least 3 of those fights were lost for you if there weren't some cloaked ghosts left and no overseer. But then again, 4 vikings and 20 cloaked banshees would have won the same engagements even more convincingly. (well except for the one with the mutas where you might have needed 2 thors and a few scvs...) Some engagements were really sad to watch from a zergs perspective, sending in those so-called fully upgraded ultras one by one was sad (and after the fight he still had ultras/infestors left, so he didn't even send in all his army?!?) Another example would be the first engagement; guess what happens if you send in 100 lings on move command next to a dozent blue flame hellions. Yeah right, they get toasted (especially with so many tanks sieged up around). No manual detonation of banelings on your ghosts too. Morphing Broodlords for 10 seconds above a terran army, marines would have done an equal/better/more cost effective job (since roaches retreated from siege tanks anyway) Ghosts sure are a great unit in TvZ, however i feel like there is a limit on how useful they can be based on your opponents unit composition and your opponents control one fungal growth in the last engagement instead of 20 infested terrans and the zerg would have won. The only time a zerg uses fungal growth in those videos is against 3 siege tanks (to burrow his infestors into a scan shortly thereafter) So yeah, if you have enough ghosts, fungals/banelings can destroy them pretty cost-effective. A muta flock (magic box vs few thors) + few overseer makes short work of you too. Also i would love to play against a terran who neglects marines/thors/vikings, baneling drops are already pretty effective against marines (if you send in a few dummy overlords ahead). But you seem to have no anti-air except for ghosts, so dropping about any zerg unit (and banlings on your ghosts) would crush your whole position.
also at the engagement where the infestors get burrowed you had luckily the ressources lost tab open. Guess what - even after the zerg sacrificing 5-7 infestors by burrowing them into your scan he still lost only 50 ressources more than you total. So much about being cost effective.
oh and before i forget it, as a zerg player neural parasite one ghost (which you can see with your overseer before said overseer gets in snipe range, if you control good enough / terran bad enough he will not snipe/emp all your infestors before they get one neural off) and emp all those beautifully clumped up ghosts, terran will smack himself for having a bunch of marines that cost 100 gas each at your front and no stimpack to retreat
all i'm saying is, sorry, but this strategy (as awesome as it is) does have its weaknesses, the zergs in your video just played to your strategy's strenghts. Do not expect this to be a solid strategy, rather like a gimmicky build that can win you the game outright if your opponent has insufficient control/tactics/strategy
The Problem with this composition is, you will die to pure Roach. Theres a reason people do Mech + Ghost builds TvZ and even then Pure Roach does very well against it. Obviously it does good against Roach, But if they engage you multiple times before you try to push their main, eventually they will just overun you.
@ GM level i've been having a hard time using Mech when they bust out infestor roach.
On August 20 2011 09:19 Cirqueenflex wrote: so basically i think at least 3 of those fights were lost for you if there weren't some cloaked ghosts left and no overseer. But then again, 4 vikings and 20 cloaked banshees would have won the same engagements even more convincingly. (well except for the one with the mutas where you might have needed 2 thors and a few scvs...) Some engagements were really sad to watch from a zergs perspective, sending in those so-called fully upgraded ultras one by one was sad (and after the fight he still had ultras/infestors left, so he didn't even send in all his army?!?) Another example would be the first engagement; guess what happens if you send in 100 lings on move command next to a dozent blue flame hellions. Yeah right, they get toasted (especially with so many tanks sieged up around). No manual detonation of banelings on your ghosts too. Morphing Broodlords for 10 seconds above a terran army, marines would have done an equal/better/more cost effective job (since roaches retreated from siege tanks anyway) Ghosts sure are a great unit in TvZ, however i feel like there is a limit on how useful they can be based on your opponents unit composition and your opponents control one fungal growth in the last engagement instead of 20 infested terrans and the zerg would have won. The only time a zerg uses fungal growth in those videos is against 3 siege tanks (to burrow his infestors into a scan shortly thereafter) So yeah, if you have enough ghosts, fungals/banelings can destroy them pretty cost-effective. A muta flock (magic box vs few thors) + few overseer makes short work of you too. Also i would love to play against a terran who neglects marines/thors/vikings, baneling drops are already pretty effective against marines (if you send in a few dummy overlords ahead). But you seem to have no anti-air except for ghosts, so dropping about any zerg unit (and banlings on your ghosts) would crush your whole position.
also at the engagement where the infestors get burrowed you had luckily the ressources lost tab open. Guess what - even after the zerg sacrificing 5-7 infestors by burrowing them into your scan he still lost only 50 ressources more than you total. So much about being cost effective.
oh and before i forget it, as a zerg player neural parasite one ghost (which you can see with your overseer before said overseer gets in snipe range, if you control good enough / terran bad enough he will not snipe/emp all your infestors before they get one neural off) and emp all those beautifully clumped up ghosts, terran will smack himself for having a bunch of marines that cost 100 gas each at your front and no stimpack to retreat
all i'm saying is, sorry, but this strategy (as awesome as it is) does have its weaknesses, the zergs in your video just played to your strategy's strenghts. Do not expect this to be a solid strategy, rather like a gimmicky build that can win you the game outright if your opponent has insufficient control/tactics/strategy
p.s.: i love ghosts too, they are a great unit!
tl, dr: this strategy wins if your opponent is not prefectly countering you /sarcasm off
I think you should rethink your opening a little bit and ur upgrades are pretty late, but this has great potential.
But really those zerg players are terribad, I can't believe they are masters. Is NA really that much worse than other servers?
On August 20 2011 09:19 Cirqueenflex wrote: so basically i think at least 3 of those fights were lost for you if there weren't some cloaked ghosts left and no overseer. But then again, 4 vikings and 20 cloaked banshees would have won the same engagements even more convincingly. (well except for the one with the mutas where you might have needed 2 thors and a few scvs...) Some engagements were really sad to watch from a zergs perspective, sending in those so-called fully upgraded ultras one by one was sad (and after the fight he still had ultras/infestors left, so he didn't even send in all his army?!?) Another example would be the first engagement; guess what happens if you send in 100 lings on move command next to a dozent blue flame hellions. Yeah right, they get toasted (especially with so many tanks sieged up around). No manual detonation of banelings on your ghosts too. Morphing Broodlords for 10 seconds above a terran army, marines would have done an equal/better/more cost effective job (since roaches retreated from siege tanks anyway) Ghosts sure are a great unit in TvZ, however i feel like there is a limit on how useful they can be based on your opponents unit composition and your opponents control one fungal growth in the last engagement instead of 20 infested terrans and the zerg would have won. The only time a zerg uses fungal growth in those videos is against 3 siege tanks (to burrow his infestors into a scan shortly thereafter) So yeah, if you have enough ghosts, fungals/banelings can destroy them pretty cost-effective. A muta flock (magic box vs few thors) + few overseer makes short work of you too. Also i would love to play against a terran who neglects marines/thors/vikings, baneling drops are already pretty effective against marines (if you send in a few dummy overlords ahead). But you seem to have no anti-air except for ghosts, so dropping about any zerg unit (and banlings on your ghosts) would crush your whole position.
also at the engagement where the infestors get burrowed you had luckily the ressources lost tab open. Guess what - even after the zerg sacrificing 5-7 infestors by burrowing them into your scan he still lost only 50 ressources more than you total. So much about being cost effective.
oh and before i forget it, as a zerg player neural parasite one ghost (which you can see with your overseer before said overseer gets in snipe range, if you control good enough / terran bad enough he will not snipe/emp all your infestors before they get one neural off) and emp all those beautifully clumped up ghosts, terran will smack himself for having a bunch of marines that cost 100 gas each at your front and no stimpack to retreat
all i'm saying is, sorry, but this strategy (as awesome as it is) does have its weaknesses, the zergs in your video just played to your strategy's strenghts. Do not expect this to be a solid strategy, rather like a gimmicky build that can win you the game outright if your opponent has insufficient control/tactics/strategy
p.s.: i love ghosts too, they are a great unit!
erm, i believe at that point where he just sent in his ultras was where he already given up and began to rage at how imba ghosts are. I just wanted to add that in for fun.
Saying that 4 vikings and 20 cloak banshees would've won the same fight is illogical because you have to take infestors into account. Fungal + infested terrans will tear them apart. At least with ghosts you are able to EMP to limit the amount of possible damage taken.
But yes definetly every build is beatable by any means. Not saying this is invincible. In fact, I think the situation you described with the overlord baneling drop to abuse the lack of anti-armor air would work pretty decent against this. I never even thought of it.
But then again, the decision of the battle is going to be heavily influenced by micro from both sides.
tl, dr: this strategy wins if your opponent is not prefectly countering you /sarcasm off
I think you should rethink your opening a little bit and ur upgrades are pretty late, but this has great potential.
But really those zerg players are terribad, I can't believe they are masters. Is NA really that much worse than other servers?
Lol like i said before, I am by means no where close to amazing in my TvZ matchup. My opening is mediocre in my replays and I dont have a solid understanding of how the matchup works in the early game. But I would definetly like to see more high leveled players attempt to try this and give feedback
I think a pf wall in the middle of the map would be unbreakable with this build. Terran can do the slowest push ever with inching pfs forward and tanks. With a split map, I don't see how a zerg can break it, because Ghosts deal with ALL Zerg air better than every unit in the game.
He's low masters so he will be playing against people that are probably going to be pretty close to diamond level to the people puzzled by quality of his opponents. Tbh I think this comp works better with thors added in. Go mech with some ghost and even with magic box if you have 4+ thors with ghosts and a few marines mutas wont be able to kill them cost effectively especially if you go for armor upgrades. I feel without thors, ling infestor with roaches could just bowl over this as it is a very fragile unit comp. In pretty much all the clips the zerg never fungals your ghosts and clump their infestors.
I'm sure some jackass will say "lol cant ever get fungal off emp has longer range!" but it just doesn't work like that unless you completely clump your infestors and move them into cloaked ghosts without pressing fungal until after the terran has cast all his emps. As people said earlier overseer has longer detection range then ghost snipe doesn't mean overseers will never get sniped.
Honestly the biggest weakness of going mech or any of these slower less mobile unit comps is that zergs can just get a unbeatable macro lead if they respond appropriately. However on NA half the zergs I play at mid-high masters are hyper aggressive or try to do some sort of bust. This makes these type of slower mech pushes effective against them since they aren't going for a heavy macro game and will often throw lots of units away and be unprepared macro and army wise for the eventual push.
While it's a viable comp I think it's pretty questionable whether it's actually worth using. This unit comp isn't just slow it's very fragile and control heavy to the point where you might as well be playing marine tank medivac ghost.
I have a question: is mech really that good? Lately on TL, I have been seeing TONS of mech guides in both tvz and tvt, and even in tvp (lol). Personally, I think marine/tank is better vs zerg, but I'd like to hear others opinions. It just seems that in high masters, zergs just constantly conterattack me, and its really hard to deal with that with marine/tank. I cant imagine how devestating counterattacks must be vs mech.
I'm playing mech since a while You don't have to fear lings/muta runby with your helions-thors, although muta can be annoying If your opponents goes broodlords/ultra, it's easier than infestors/roaches comp' Upgrades are better I have the feeling that ghosts mix better in the comp than marine tanks That said, I can't say if mech or marine tank is better, I just know that I can deal with way more experienced player than me with a mech comp' Here's a replay, may be not the most usual game I play, but there's runbys \o/ http://replayfu.com/r/QgN90p
On August 20 2011 10:26 kofman wrote: I have a question: is mech really that good? Lately on TL, I have been seeing TONS of mech guides in both tvz and tvt, and even in tvp (lol). Personally, I think marine/tank is better vs zerg, but I'd like to hear others opinions. It just seems that in high masters, zergs just constantly conterattack me, and its really hard to deal with that with marine/tank. I cant imagine how devestating counterattacks must be vs mech.
Ghost/mech is a fairly powerful late-game composition. Especially if you transitioned FROM a Marine/Tank/Medivac midgame.
The only reason Marines really lose their effectiveness in the late-game is the abundance of infestors and broodlords that Zerg should have available to him. But replacing marines with ghosts and Thors, so long as you can afford the gas to do so, will allow you to hold off Broodlords and EMP infestors.
This isn't to say that you should stop marine production completely. Continuing with your octo-drops and having 3/3 infantry upgrades is ridiculously strong vs the plentiful number of zerg bases.
I wouldn't say it's an end-all-be-all, but it's a lot stronger than just adding vikings to your marine/tank/medivac composition.
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