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On August 20 2011 09:31 GoKu` wrote:
The Problem with this composition is, you will die to pure Roach. Theres a reason people do Mech + Ghost builds TvZ and even then Pure Roach does very well against it. Obviously it does good against Roach, But if they engage you multiple times before you try to push their main, eventually they will just overun you.
@ GM level i've been having a hard time using Mech when they bust out infestor roach.
What are you talking about O_O. Roach vs Mech is pretty even. Its much like the Hydra vs. Mech in BW. Its and even match.
@OP Yeah I've been going mass ghost Mech in TvZ.
Mutas 100/100 and do 9 damage. 3 Food
Ghosts 200/100 and do 20 against light(more?) and EMPs infestors, and snipe ultras/BLs. 2 food
If you have 1 ghost for every muta and then a thor. I think your set against Mutas.
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On August 20 2011 11:04 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 09:31 GoKu` wrote:
The Problem with this composition is, you will die to pure Roach. Theres a reason people do Mech + Ghost builds TvZ and even then Pure Roach does very well against it. Obviously it does good against Roach, But if they engage you multiple times before you try to push their main, eventually they will just overun you.
@ GM level i've been having a hard time using Mech when they bust out infestor roach. What are you talking about O_O. Roach vs Mech is pretty even. Its much like the Hydra vs. Mech in BW. Its and even match. @OP Yeah I've been going mass ghost Mech in TvZ. Mutas 100/100 and do 9 damage. 3 Food Ghosts 200/100 and do 20 against light(more?) and EMPs infestors, and snipe ultras/BLs. 2 food If you have 1 ghost for every muta and then a thor. I think your set against Mutas.
-.- mutas are 2 food
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On August 20 2011 11:04 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 09:31 GoKu` wrote:
The Problem with this composition is, you will die to pure Roach. Theres a reason people do Mech + Ghost builds TvZ and even then Pure Roach does very well against it. Obviously it does good against Roach, But if they engage you multiple times before you try to push their main, eventually they will just overun you.
@ GM level i've been having a hard time using Mech when they bust out infestor roach. What are you talking about O_O. Roach vs Mech is pretty even. Its much like the Hydra vs. Mech in BW. Its and even match. @OP Yeah I've been going mass ghost Mech in TvZ. Mutas 100/100 and do 9 damage. 3 Food Ghosts 200/100 and do 20 against light(more?) and EMPs infestors, and snipe ultras/BLs. 2 food If you have 1 ghost for every muta and then a thor. I think your set against Mutas.
I dont even think you'll need 1:1, i think 1 ghost for every 2 mutas should be more than enough, maybe even 2 for every 5
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I also think adding in a few thors in late game would be helpful. When do you do the transition? And what do you normally use before?
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On August 20 2011 14:31 SkysLa wrote:
I also think adding in a few thors in late game would be helpful. When do you do the transition? And what do you normally use before?
I usually get my 3rd base with Marine/Tank/Medivac from 3Rax, 1Factory, 1Starport and 1-2 Engineering bays so you don't have too many Raxes at this point.
I would say that lift 2 of the Raxes and get Tech Labs on those. Build 2 Factories on the Reactors so you have:
3 Tech Lab Raxes for Ghosts
3 Factories, 2 Reactor, one Tech Lab
1 Reactor Starport
2 Engineering bays and an Armory
Ghost Academy
And then if possible, a 4th Factory so that you produce 2fact Hellion/2fact Tank/Thor and 3rax Ghost as well as Dropships/Vikings from one Reactor Starport. You might want to add a 2nd Starport for utility purposes(Ravens, Banshee harass or just more production).
This is assuming you don't want to waste any of your production facilities for scouting and such. Add more if you start floating, mainly Tech Lab Factories, Tech Lab Raxes or Starports.
I don't have a clue if this works, but I'll test this out once I get back to playing Zergs and see how it works.
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On August 20 2011 19:59 Airact wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 14:31 SkysLa wrote:
I also think adding in a few thors in late game would be helpful. When do you do the transition? And what do you normally use before? I usually get my 3rd base with Marine/Tank/Medivac from 3Rax, 1Factory, 1Starport and 1-2 Engineering bays so you don't have too many Raxes at this point. I would say that lift 2 of the Raxes and get Tech Labs on those. Build 2 Factories on the Reactors so you have: 3 Tech Lab Raxes for Ghosts 3 Factories, 2 Reactor, one Tech Lab 1 Reactor Starport 2 Engineering bays and an Armory Ghost Academy And then if possible, a 4th Factory so that you produce 2fact Hellion/2fact Tank/Thor and 3rax Ghost as well as Dropships/Vikings from one Reactor Starport. You might want to add a 2nd Starport for utility purposes(Ravens, Banshee harass or just more production). This is assuming you don't want to waste any of your production facilities for scouting and such. Add more if you start floating, mainly Tech Lab Factories, Tech Lab Raxes or Starports. I don't have a clue if this works, but I'll test this out once I get back to playing Zergs and see how it works.
I think 2 techlab fac 1 reactor fac is better. Otherwise you'll be stuck with a maxed comp with like 40 hellions.
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On August 20 2011 21:10 Klyberess wrote:
I think 2 techlab fac 1 reactor fac is better. Otherwise you'll be stuck with a maxed comp with like 40 hellions.
I went with assuming that you would use 2 Reactors and one Tech lab raxes for Marines and I wanted to use every addon and every production building.
1Reactor 2 Tech Lab raxes would be interesting tho. A bit weaker army, but a faster 3rd and a possibility to get more upgrades faster.
What openers would you suggest and how should I play with that?
-I would think about a Marine/Medivac push with both Stim and shields as well as 2 Medivacs and as many Marines as possible. BW TvZ kind of MM poke/attack/pressure/whateveryouwanttocallit. Get a Tech Lab for your Factory meanwhile and get Tanks to get a bit on the defensive while you build your 3rd CC and get your Mech going while you retreat as Mutalisks come(or if you cannot be attacked by ground, just force the Mutas to be in his base because you would drop him or kill his Mutalisks if he engages).
I don't know how would I open the game, when to get my 2nd gas, raxes etc. but well... Need to figure those out.
I know for sure that it's going to be after a FE because on one base it will suck.
How would this work on Tal'Darim altar as it's the only ladder map where you effectively cannot split the map?
This is just a bit of theorycrafting by a Diamond level Terran, but if any Zergs want to test it, feel free to PM and stuff. I probably won't be any good at it, but well... I'll improve.
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I have taldarim vetoed actually so I have no clue, but If you're able to maintain the xelnaga towers with hellions. Then the slow push should be a bit easier.
What I typically try to do so, start the transition to mech on 2 bases with 3 factories (2 tech 1 reactor) And get extra barracks, get a thor or 2 to deter muta harass. And then try to secure my 3rd and follow up with ghosts. My reactor tech lab ratio for later game becomes 2 reactors: 3 techlabs
As for openings I'm not even that great myself. I just attempt to do 1 reaper FE into blue flame hellion drops --> cloaked banshees --> and then finally the fullswitch
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you don't need ghosts to be compared to mutalisks, your thors are your main anti air, so a 1:2 ratio or such is pointless
now of course, you could just mass mass ghost to deal with mutas, BLs, and infestors, but you need thors to deal with the roaches unless you are really good at sniping (snipe like 50 times in 1 second lol), and since you are going mech you probably didn't get infantry weapons, or at least not double infantry weapons
you just need to make sure you have at least 10 ghosts or so in the mid-lategame, so that you can easily take down or severely weaken a BL/infestor composition -- i'd say 20 is really safe and good for late gamme, as long as they don't just die every battle, cus u need the energy to snipe/EMP
BLs and infestors in small numbers are quite weak to mech. It's just the first time they attack you with their army, where it is huge, and is very hard to stop. Snipe snipe snipe, and it's instantly much smaller.
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There goes my Z v T late game again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Perhaps i will need to transition to Roach Bling Losira style against it. Thank god for the overseer price change in the PTR.
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I think that this will still fall to a well executed mutra-ling-bling.
I've played against it, and I think that ghosts alone are not enough anti-air if you plan to be building tanks as well.
I also played against a variation with the terran going thor-ghost. I believe it will still fall to mass muta without the addition of marines.
You will either be overrun by banelings and lings, or simply not haven enough firepower to deal with someone who forgoes baneling for mass mass muta.
Furthermore ghosts cannot stim, and will be slower and less effective at dealing with muta harass once the muta numbers get really high.
I think you still need some marines.
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Do you know what a muta is?
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the video was horrible demonstration, the zerg goes mass ground vs ur mech + ghost. in which the ghosts worked against you in terms of cost effectiveness. you'd have been better off making more mech..
not to say ghosts arent great but at least demonstrate it a bit better, cuz in that scenario they were totally useless
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I am of the mind that marine tank is still very good and I am more comfortable with it, deals with counters and roaches much better. Easy to keep pressure on zerg constantly dropping, sniping hatcheries (can't do that with hellions really...) and lends itself easily to throwing down like 8 more racks and a ghost academy and pumping ghosts which will have the 3-3 I got for marines. I have even sometimes been pretty effectively transitioning into 3-4 starport battlecruiser which I cannot imagine doing with ghost mech.
Marine ghost tank just seems a lot stronger than hellion ghost tank to me.
Cool to see diversity, but I don't really want to be turtling for 20 minutes.
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if you're including tanks, just use them sparingly. With ghosts out to neutralize infestors, thor do more for the cost than tanks late game. Esp with 3/3 =D
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On August 26 2011 01:46 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
Do you know what a muta is?
do you realize ghosts do 20 damage a shot, and each one can kill at least one mutalisk before it can even attack? and they are much less gas heavy than mutalisks?
Also, turrets.
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On August 26 2011 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:do you realize ghosts do 20 damage a shot, and each one can kill at least one mutalisk before it can even attack? and they are much less gas heavy than mutalisks? Also, turrets.
About this, I had some fun in Unit Tester:
-At 0/0, 24 Ghosts beat 30 (0/0) Mutas in a straight up fight, no snipes used.
-At 1/1 and 2/2, 21 Ghosts beats 30 (1/1 and 2/2) mutas, no snipes used.
-At 3/3, 20 Ghosts beats (3/3) 30 mutas, no snipes used.
Ghosts are clumped as much as possible in these tests. The results were pretty consistent. Basically, Ghosts are decent against mass muta even without using snipes.
If we include Snipes. I let each Ghost accumulate to 100 energy. This I think is a fair assumption given the Mobius Reactor upgrade and some time walking around. Again, Ghosts were clumped as tightly as possible to maximize Muta splash. I then Spammed snipe as quickly as I possibly could.
-At 0/0, 17 Ghosts beat 30 (0/0) Mutas
-At 1/1 and 2/2, 15 Ghosts beat 30 (1/1 and 2/2) Mutas
-At 3/3, 14 Ghosts beat (3/3) 30 Mutas
I couldn't manage better than that since at 14 or less Ghosts I ended up running out of energy. Suffice to say that with Snipes Ghosts are Super effective against Mutas. They even provide the same tactical advantage as Thors since if Mutas even get on the same screen then a flurry of snipe spams and he'll lose a few Mutas almost instantly. With Thors the Zerg could fly away and heal up and Marines lack the range to cover more than a relatively small area which makes Tank snipes possible. Ghosts can cover a huge area with Snipes, and because of instant hit and huge range, tank snipes are completely out of the question. I'd wager the Zerg would lose 3-4 Mutas minimum to kill 1 tank, and if it was some pro Korean Terran with 500 APM the Zerg would probably lose half his flock.
It's also worth noting that generally Terran Infantry upgrades will be ahead of Zerg air upgrades so actual in-game mileage may actually be better than what I managed in the unit tester.
P.S: An interesting note is that if you have Mobius Reactor researched and a single freshly rallied Ghost is caught by a flock of mutas, you have enough energy for 3 Snipes which can instantly kill a Mutalisk regardless of how big his flock is. This means that if you have good enough map awareness and quick enough reactions, you will never trade worse than 1 Ghost for 1 Muta, even if it's 1 Ghost vs. 50 Mutas!! NEVER SAY DIE!
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On August 26 2011 06:03 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 26 2011 01:46 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
Do you know what a muta is? do you realize ghosts do 20 damage a shot, and each one can kill at least one mutalisk before it can even attack? and they are much less gas heavy than mutalisks? Also, turrets. About this, I had some fun in Unit Tester: -At 0/0, 24 Ghosts beat 30 (0/0) Mutas in a straight up fight, no snipes used. -At 1/1 and 2/2, 21 Ghosts beats 30 (1/1 and 2/2) mutas, no snipes used. -At 3/3, 20 Ghosts beats (3/3) 30 mutas, no snipes used. Ghosts are clumped as much as possible in these tests. The results were pretty consistent. Basically, Ghosts are decent against mass muta even without using snipes. If we include Snipes. I let each Ghost accumulate to 100 energy. This I think is a fair assumption given the Mobius Reactor upgrade and some time walking around. Again, Ghosts were clumped as tightly as possible to maximize Muta splash. I then Spammed snipe as quickly as I possibly could. -At 0/0, 17 Ghosts beat 30 (0/0) Mutas -At 1/1 and 2/2, 15 Ghosts beat 30 (1/1 and 2/2) Mutas -At 3/3, 14 Ghosts beat (3/3) 30 Mutas I couldn't manage better than that since at 14 or less Ghosts I ended up running out of energy. Suffice to say that with Snipes Ghosts are Super effective against Mutas. They even provide the same tactical advantage as Thors since if Mutas even get on the same screen then a flurry of snipe spams and he'll lose a few Mutas almost instantly. With Thors the Zerg could fly away and heal up and Marines lack the range to cover more than a relatively small area which makes Tank snipes possible. Ghosts can cover a huge area with Snipes, and because of instant hit and huge range, tank snipes are completely out of the question. I'd wager the Zerg would lose 3-4 Mutas minimum to kill 1 tank, and if it was some pro Korean Terran with 500 APM the Zerg would probably lose half his flock. It's also worth noting that generally Terran Infantry upgrades will be ahead of Zerg air upgrades so actual in-game mileage may actually be better than what I managed in the unit tester. P.S: An interesting note is that if you have Mobius Reactor researched and a single freshly rallied Ghost is caught by a flock of mutas, you have enough energy for 3 Snipes which can instantly kill a Mutalisk regardless of how big his flock is. This means that if you have good enough map awareness and quick enough reactions, you will never trade worse than 1 Ghost for 1 Muta, even if it's 1 Ghost vs. 50 Mutas!! NEVER SAY DIE!
Thank you for the numbers, let the truth be heard 
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i have found that keeping your army mainly bio + medivac with good decent upgrades and then using about 4 tanks + 4 thors as a metal shield is almost unbreakable until you have maxed out if you see broods add some vikings since you shud alllready have a reactor starport ^^ using dorps for herras etc it works for me and im hesitant using ghosts since i have like minus 10 apm ^^
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EPT
