|
It's my first week back on sc2 after a 8month break, but so far FFE into stargate harrass into quick 3rd\2colossi push is working wonders for me, I rarely lose pvz's at mid masters. Unfortunately, I see how zergs who rush for extremely quick 3rd would take less damage frome pressure if they play the openings without mistakes.
Still, even if I can't do much damage with a void ray\3 phoenix, I can pretty much force extra queens, spores, and hydras that'll later meet my colossi timing off equal economy. If they don't get hydras, I get to delay 4th, and, more importantly, kill the creep tumors with my quick observers. There's still gas to kill occasionally, some ovies, then I finally can trade energy for drones, clean any overlords on the map, intercept drone transfers, kill lings near towers, patrol map with phoenixes, etc - all while taking a 3rd base off 2gate\robo\4gas, stopping the stargate production.
Then game usually depends on my ability to benifitialy trade colossi-based army before infestor timings, and then transition into zealot/archon/stalker/HT(feedback mostly) + 4th base...if I have my push stopped by a zerg with infestors out and still superior eco, I usually screwed up somewhere. Banes in ovies are pretty annoying though, coupled with infestors, and some hydra drop timings can be devastating if I overproduce air and delay robo too long, although "meeting" drops with army and having spotted them with phoenix works out nicely.
Overall I'm treating it like BW PvZ, being gay with air units and limiting their options, while catching up on expansions and delaying their own.
I haven't tried it off 1gate nexus yet, but I like the safety of FFE, and how on some maps I can get a nice early lead by pyloning their natural and delaying my canon forever, surviving due to wall\etc. One gate nexus pretty much still requires you to get a forge, even if zerg isn't making a dedicated attack, and the only tradeoff is faster warpgate(stargate timing, I think, would be similar, though it's cool if there are resources to safely get a void ray out earlier than 07:30 off 1gate nex).
I guess I'll play out FFE for couple weeks and then try myself a 1gate nex approach.
|
Just for clarification purposes: one gate FE is safe vs early pressure shenanigans, on maps that allow for it. I didn't go into the map specifics, mainly because that wasn't the point I was trying to make (if one gate expo isn't feasible on a map, then the discussion is irrelevant anyways) but also because one gate FE hasn't been as explored as FFE.
For the sake of the argument let's assume for the subsequent discussion assume that we are on a map/position where we can both one gate FE and FFE and are skilled enough to execute it in a way that won't get us killed early 
EDIT: at person above me:
the funny thing is, zergs who delay their third are mostly much more vulnerable than zergs who take it immediately. in + Show Spoiler + the zerg took the third even as his natural, possibly to prevent getting pylon-blocked. By doing that you guarantee yourself a super-early queen and the ability to plant spores way in time before voidrays could be a problem.
This is the core point of my argument: that by going FFE zerg can get the third SO fast that the defense is already in place when your voidray comes flying. If you can harass the third then the zerg did something wrong. Furthermore, I've been quite unable to force hydras. Zergs just mass-roach against me and add infestors+corruptors.
|
Last month (month before that? I dunno) when the roach/ling aggression got really popular, many protoss players were having difficulty defending with a 3-gate expand, never mind a 1-gate expand. On maps where you can go for a full wall-off outside your nat, I could see a 1-gate expo working maybe, but it still seems very vulnerable to early aggression. Also, you have to decide if you're going to gate expo or FFE before you see if he's got gas (and could threaten with early speedlings or roaches). I feel like 1-gate expands will remain a corned-cutting 3-gate expand variation, used against players who have late gas or in cross positions.
|
What I like to do vs. Zerg off FFE is instead of 6 gating, do 4 gate + robo + council and get an observer, blink, and immortals to go with my stalkers. Don't make sentries. Use your observer to watch his third while boosting out +2 weapons. When it finishes, if he's saturated the third, go attack him. You should be up to about 130 food at this point with 4 immortals and the rest stalkers. If he has few drones there, go take a third and start going for colossi.
The idea is the Zerg does not have enough time/larva to both saturate the third and get enough gas to make a huge force of roaches plus infestors which are needed to stop this. Pure roach alone just straight up dies to blink stalkers and immortals, as does roach/ling as your +2 stalkers can kill zerglings in two hits instead of three. The tendency of your immortals to get stuck in the middle of your stalker ball actually helps you here. Your stalkers can take the initial volleys on their shields while the lings are killed, then blink back and let the immortals come to the front against the roaches. It also does pretty well against infestor/ling, again because of the +2 weapons. Just make sure to hug cliff edges as you move as much as possible to reduce the surface area lings have to attack you. He will have infestors out when you attack, but he won't have enough to just straight up fungal spam your entire stalker ball to death 100%-0%, and you have the advantage of immortals against which fungal does very little, and can instakill his infestors if he makes any kind of mistake and gets too close. Kill his ling swarm, then burn down his third's hatchery, kill the drones, and then run back to your base before he can produce another 4-6 infestors to come finish you off.
Of course, the build has weaknesses. Without sentries, if he goes for a baneling bust you're going to have a hard time, but I find that good simcity, making three cannons, and making sure no two cannons can be hit by banelings at the same time helps beat this. The other problem is if he goes for the oldschool muta/ling, you are just plain dead. Without sentries, you have absolutely no hope of surviving muta/ling.
|
On August 10 2011 20:03 Xequecal wrote:
What I like to do vs. Zerg off FFE is instead of 6 gating, do 4 gate + robo + council and get an observer, blink, and immortals to go with my stalkers. Don't make sentries. Use your observer to watch his third while boosting out +2 weapons. When it finishes, if he's saturated the third, go attack him. You should be up to about 130 food at this point with 4 immortals and the rest stalkers. If he has few drones there, go take a third and start going for colossi.
The idea is the Zerg does not have enough time/larva to both saturate the third and get enough gas to make a huge force of roaches plus infestors which are needed to stop this. Pure roach alone just straight up dies to blink stalkers and immortals, as does roach/ling as your +2 stalkers can kill zerglings in two hits instead of three. The tendency of your immortals to get stuck in the middle of your stalker ball actually helps you here. Your stalkers can take the initial volleys on their shields while the lings are killed, then blink back and let the immortals come to the front against the roaches. It also does pretty well against infestor/ling, again because of the +2 weapons. Just make sure to hug cliff edges as you move as much as possible to reduce the surface area lings have to attack you. He will have infestors out when you attack, but he won't have enough to just straight up fungal spam your entire stalker ball to death 100%-0%, and you have the advantage of immortals against which fungal does very little, and can instakill his infestors if he makes any kind of mistake and gets too close. Kill his ling swarm, then burn down his third's hatchery, kill the drones, and then run back to your base before he can produce another 4-6 infestors to come finish you off.
Of course, the build has weaknesses. Without sentries, if he goes for a baneling bust you're going to have a hard time, but I find that good simcity, making three cannons, and making sure no two cannons can be hit by banelings at the same time helps beat this. The other problem is if he goes for the oldschool muta/ling, you are just plain dead. Without sentries, you have absolutely no hope of surviving muta/ling.
at what timeing does your attack comes? Can you show us some replay? This sounds interesting, but looks like mass 1-1 lings would demolish it
|
I agree that common FFE openings lack any pressure ability to scare enough a decent zerg.
As seen in many pro matches one stargate pressure with one or two void ray is too late to deny the third and is not even guaranteed to force hydras (I myself prefer to go mutas after a failed stargate pressure because you will likely caught them teching and without enough phoenixes to deal with 10+ mutas).
On the other and any warpgate timing with or without blink should get overwhelmed if properly scouted (if the zerg knows when he has to stop droning).
2 stargate phoenixes after FFE (MC sometimes does it) looks more promising. If unscouted it's guaranteed damage because one spore is not enough dps to really hurt phoenixes, And then you are sure to retain map-control for a long time allowing some speedlots harass while you tech and take your third. Hydras push are not that strong to counter it (graviton really own that) and infesters with a fourth are probably the way to go. So in theory you should be able to tech and take a third to stay on even footing with the zerg if your multitasking is on par. Although this style is not popular enough to know how strong it can be.
So unless a new standard way to FFE emerge which put enough pressure I agree that 1 gate expo will be the future of PvZ. Because it's as greedy but much more flexible and opens up to a wider variety of timings that the zerg has to prepare for.
|
Yeah, I've seen it as well, pretty much instant 3rd, often even before gas; it reduces the damage from stargate openings quite a bit. Still, all that gives them is better protection of theirs bases. I still get to see everything, kill some drones, kill some overlords, make them multitask as well, and creep tumors(although it's easier for them to protect or remake those, they still die very fast to void ray). If I see them only making drones, I still can take a 3rd off 2gates with pretty much 6 gateways units and 3 phoenix/void ray, that sets me up for a fast death ball.
Actually, against some zergs I found myself able to even poke them with my small unit count a little bit later after harass. I guess it's harder than usual but playable; if I find myself playing perfectly and still getting destroyed, I'll write about it here. Just cleaner aggression and faster expansion timings + non-stop harass seems to go long way.
For me, question is - what gives 1gate expo it's advantage, specially if it gets scouted. I wouldn't want to turn the game into gamble with nexus cancel allins, and if I don't, they still can get a quick third fairly quickly, regardless of my harass. It depends on the timing of stargate units compared to their 3rd laid in response to the nexus, and worker count comparison before that. With FFE I know I'm ahead in workers up to the point where my harass starts, where they get ahead quick after handling it. What I dislike about 1gate nexus is that my 3rd timing would probably coincide with zerg infestor timings, while off FFE against fast 3hatch it's more of a 4th base matter.
|
On August 10 2011 20:45 Soulforged wrote:
Actually, against some zergs I found myself able to even poke them with my small unit count a little bit later after harass.
This is/would be definitely the way to go. Nevertheless almost all protoss players seem to "wing" that currently, I haven't seen a even slightly underlying pattern...when to transition from stargate-harass into gateway-unit-poke. Mostly it seems like they kinda randomly spam some units and go for it, after they are done with phoenix-micro.
Just cleaner aggression and faster expansion timings + non-stop harass seems to go long way.
Completely agreed. This is basicly what I was asking for - how do you pressure competent zergs after FFE. Only stargate-harass into deathball-macro doesn't work vs good zergs. P players doing that get destroyed left and right. If you go stargate, then you have to have some "follow-up-pressure" in store. Nevertheless I have no clue how to structure such a build.
Also I didn't imply that I would plan on going nexus cancel every other game. It's the mere possibility that I "could" be doing it that should force zergs, in theory, into a more conservative playstyle when facing a one gate expo. Pretty much like the robo vs the threat of cloak in PvT.
|
Seems pretty clear that part of opening Stargate (off one OR two bases) has to be attacking with your ground units if the Zerg plays greedy. It's very expensive to defend three bases from Phoenix/Void/Zealot.
|
I mean, with practice and a refined build you can go for a pressure build, like stargate into blink stalker maybe warpprism, something gimmicky...the problem is, when the zerg keeps cool and masses an army you're dead.
I think to make such an build work, you really need alot of refinement and experience, do you agree?
I may also test 2 stargate phoenix into blink stalker nonstop harass the next games, but i think its going to be hard.
After the phoenixes, do you use teh stargates anymore? maybe alter adding some void rays to you're deathball if its going to mid/lategame? or just forget about them?
|
On August 10 2011 18:10 durr wrote:
I have to say that recently i have had a lot of Z players 6-8 pool me on maps that FFE is common and so i just don't even try to go for it anymore because i hate losing to these gimmicky strats. As for your question i won't go into which is more economical but with 1-3gate xpand you can fake pressure and even apply some real pressure and make them not build drones which can make you closer in econ to the Z but maybe not really a better econ than FFE will give you but the Z wont be as far ahead b/c of roach/ling building and not drones.
Its just you lacking skill&knowledge how to counter 6-8pool with forge opening
|
If I get scouted doing a FFE, I'll probably transition to early stargate to punish the probable 3rd expansion. If I don't see a fast 3rd then I throw down some more gates and stop with any stargate aggression. If I do see a 3rd I'll probably continue with stargate aggression and maybe expand as well.
However, I feel that 1gate expo is probably more reliable, as every PvZ I've been in where I've FFE'd, the zerg takes a quick third and I find it very hard to come back from that. 1gate expo gives me the chance to have a fairly formidable army in time for any early pool aggression that I'm on the end of.
|
Im pretty sure 1gate expand is very hard to protect if zerg builds blindly speedlings. Metalopolis i think is the only map where ramp is so close to natural's nexus so you can build protecting wall fast with 2nd and 3rd gateways after nexus. On other maps you have to sit at your ramp and they will just force you to forcefield the ramp choke so you block yourself and cant defend nexus.
|
I tend to go 1 gate expo almost exclusively, assuming I see a late gas. Speedlings basically stop pressure simply with the threat of their existence, but until then, Zealots and Stalkers are way more than enough to make a Zerg feel uneasy.
For reference, I can usually force at least 10-12 Zerglings off of 1 Zealot and 2-3 Stalkers. Stalkers just outrun them and Zealots are naturally good against lings.
|
guys, if zerg don't feel pressure is free to take a 3rd at 4 minutes, build only drones from 3 bases, and just crush you with his 200/200 army at 13-14 minutes.
And, if you watch the game cited by sleepingdog, you will see that, at 10 minutes, zerg already have 50+ units more than a protoss that goes for FFE into 6-7 gates with blink.
so, any kind of pressure/attack/all in need to happen lot earlier.
everything else (turtling to colossi, taking a "fast" third, ecc...) can't really work at high lvl.
|
On August 10 2011 21:47 mazqo wrote:
Im pretty sure 1gate expand is very hard to protect if zerg builds blindly speedlings. Metalopolis i think is the only map where ramp is so close to natural's nexus so you can build protecting wall fast with 2nd and 3rd gateways after nexus. On other maps you have to sit at your ramp and they will just force you to forcefield the ramp choke so you block yourself and cant defend nexus.
This I don't really understand....you can close the gap to your nexus on metalopolis, on antiga shipyard, on nezarim crypt, on abyssal caverns, on shattered temple...
I've seen pro-gamers one gate FE numerous times, for example HwangSin when laddering against korea's elite. If you do it right, it holds. Nevertheless I think it's crucial to not throw down the nexus OR the pylon down the ramp (!) too early. I usually go for something like ~5:10 nexus. The reason why I prefer one gate FE over 3 gate FE is actually not only the economical advantage, but that I can immediately wall off one entrance and have the expo protected against run-bys.
Nevertheless I didn't wanna discuss how to properly one gate FE and how to defend vs early mass speedling...
|
On August 10 2011 18:10 durr wrote:
I have to say that recently i have had a lot of Z players 6-8 pool me on maps that FFE is common and so i just don't even try to go for it anymore because i hate losing to these gimmicky strats. As for your question i won't go into which is more economical but with 1-3gate xpand you can fake pressure and even apply some real pressure and make them not build drones which can make you closer in econ to the Z but maybe not really a better econ than FFE will give you but the Z wont be as far ahead b/c of roach/ling building and not drones.
if you save your first chrono til you scout you can generally get up a 13 forge... which beats the living hell out of most early pool strats...
|
One issue is how fast they get their get their natural. If you go 14 Forge, then you can cannon rush their Natural if they go Hatch first. When you go 1 Gateway, Nexus, then they can Hatch first fairly safely. For that reason the correct answer may not be to do one or the other always, but to mix it up.
|
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
|
It's similar to Brood War, but the exception being that Zerg et's larvae injects which allows them to really have an augmented production rate of drones.
There really is no similarity to Brood War as many key units are very different. I believe one of the reason that P v Z is lopsided is that there has been no revolutionary strategy. There needs to be some sort of strategy SIMILAR to the Forge FE but applicable to SC2.
User was warned for this post
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
