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On August 11 2011 03:19 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition  Joking aside: Show nested quote +2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route. Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later. I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd.
The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now.
I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read  If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
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On August 10 2011 18:19 Pharaun wrote:
Hey Sleepingdog, greetings from germany.
I have to state, iam a noob, if started with season3 after some month break of sc2.
My experience so far is, i get extremely crushed by zerg.
Iam almost 100% doing a FFE.
The Problems i encounter are, that Zerg almost always has a bigger (not mass but really bigger) army then me, at any given point.
This seems to be due to the hard droning, fast third zerg. (i play even enemies so i guess their macro isnt twice as good as mine).
I was really thinking around what to do, because i dont like to follow builds or guides (just for an inspiration)
So i came up with different things:
Teching/passive playstile off of 2 or 3 bases makes no sense, zerg will overwhelm you.
So I lately tried to go FFE 6 gate blink stalker pressure into third base the moment I attack.
to be honest, i get crushed, like you stated above.
So i think what i will try next is, to go FFE 6gate blinkstalker +robo (try to kill/annoy the zerg as much as possible with blink+observer) and maybe a warpprism at the third/main at the same time.
I guess this gameplan is some sort of risky, but i dont know. Zerg is just pumping hydras at minute 9+ and crushes my FFE. I cant get colossi fast enough, and even if i will get them, i dont have enouugh sentries/gateway units to support 1-2 colossi.
I have to say, the 1 Gate (possible 4gate/pressure) build, is not what i think is right.
A good zerg will scout or prepare soemwhat for a push, but i think you will be behind anyways cause of later expo.
Atm i dont really have any idea how to beat zerg, really.
What do you think about a FFE build liek stated above?
-6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass
after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
this is 100% spot on what i feel about PvZ openings right now. No matter what, 3gate expo is bad now. 1gate expo is gimmicky. If it works its great, but usually zergs will make 15-20 speedlings fast to make you cancel 1 or 2 times, losing 200 mins and ur expo gets up way later. FFE is my favorite atm. Been using double stargate + 5gates off 2base to deal with hydra roach, and chargelot archon vs any heavy ling composition. I feel like transitioning from stargate all the way robo bay is way too cost inefficient to only deal with hydras. A large number of phoenix and a mid-sized gateway army deals with hydras perfectly around the 9-10 minute mark.
this matchup is retarded atm for most Protosses, but im theorycrafting alot. The double stargate opening that i am working with is very good for holding off midgame pushes, but it delays your 3rd for awhile and i always end up losing in the long run because my main dries out and Z keeps pressuring my 3rd while i try to get a heavy gateway army with HT. Im theorycrafting and thinking about getting a fleet beacon after my double stargate and pumping 2 carriers -> pressure + 3rd base. Sounds kinda weird off 2 base because carriers are so expensive, but think about it...you already have stargate so all you need is fleet beacon, where as teching to collo -> 200/100 + 200/200 + 300/200 + 200/200 for thermal lance. Its actually not that expensive when you consider that every toss has been teching to collossi. You should keep your phoenix alive to deal with the hydras and pick up any infestors, and your carriers can do massive dps with support of gateway army. Carriers also deal with corruptors in small numbers, so this tech switch forces many more corruptors than if you went collossi. Only thing to avoid is neurals...
PS. This is ALL theorycrafting, just thought of this transition yesterday, because my win rate in PvZ is like 20% atm in high masters lol. Just got me thinking that robo route didnt work, twilight/templar route was doing ok but still crumbled to the econ of the zrg...lets try the stargate tech route, something that has never been explored all too much yet!
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On August 11 2011 05:04 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 03:19 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition Joking aside: 2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route. Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later. I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like. I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd. The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout. The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now. I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
Yeah i agree with this, its a viable follow up but as you said, infestors are way more common these days which would stop this. also, zergs alot of the time build up a timing attack once they see your stargate play to hit right before your collo comes, or when you only have one out. Ive attacked into this army a couple times, and it never turned out very well  . I think itd work if u catch the zerg offguard and he just produced a drone cycle, but tbh this is all luck as it is highly unscoutable..like naniwa said, the matchup is very strange with its somewhat "lucky" timings.
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On August 11 2011 05:04 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 03:19 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition Joking aside: 2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route. Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later. I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like. I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd. The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout. The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now. I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
Ok. What are the general timings for a basic FFE into stargate? When do you take gasses, when do you put down the core, when does the stargate itself go down? When forge fast expanding, what maps should you not do it on? What is the basic FFE build order? Thanks!
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I think you can FFE and while you take your third pressure with Blinkers + DTs a la huk, force your opponent to multi task, while being able to retreat back to your sentries if shit gets to heavy. You can take your third and then tech to ht from there pretty easy.
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On August 11 2011 05:19 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:04 Anihc wrote:On August 11 2011 03:19 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition Joking aside: 2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route. Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later. I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like. I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd. The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout. The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now. I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can. Ok. What are the general timings for a basic FFE into stargate? When do you take gasses, when do you put down the core, when does the stargate itself go down? When forge fast expanding, what maps should you not do it on? What is the basic FFE build order? Thanks!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230939
Essentially you want to get your core as soon as your gateway is done, and your stargate as soon as your core is done... etc. Your first 2 gas should be taken right after you get your gateway, and your 2 natural gases should be taken soon after without having to cut too many chronoboosted probes (if at all).
I FFE on every map there is, even searing crater. You should try judging for yourself which maps are better than others - maps where natural is more open and harder to defend are worse for FFE than maps with chokes to natural. Maps that are worse for FFE just mean that I have to spend more on cannons to defend. It's up to you though what you feel comfortable with.
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I think this thread is mainly about how Nestea and Losira's 3 hatch one gas build revolutionized ZvP But i love it cause it's my go to build now.
The only times I don't win are when I forget to scout or i forget to put my evo down at 6:50.
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On August 11 2011 05:04 Anihc wrote:
The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
Mhmm....will give it a try, I guess.
To be honest, I'm less afraid of infestor timing attacks than I am of a 3 hatch mass-droning zerg who builds nothing but queens for defense. Recently I saw some protoss-players (especially huk) not go for colossi but for an archon-follow-up when facing infestor/ling. Even if the tech-path is delayed (TC/archives) you can warp in a whole round of HTs if you time it correctly, and archons sure are amazing vs infestor/ling.
It seems like PvZ is evolving quite heavily anyways at the moment 
EDIT: nice third game vs darkforce
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just pointing out that a ffe fast 6 gate timing comes roughly at the same time as a 2 gas 4 gate. aside from that zerg doesnt feel much pressure from a 1 gat eexpo either
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What I have been doing a lot is doing a ffe into stargate. pretty standard and I pull the MC build a robo as soon as I make my first void. HOWEVER, I then transition into a double robo and pump out collosus. The biggest thing is that I HIDE the collosus. Then I move out with 6+ collosus. I have 2-3 reps of me doing this but I havwe no idea how to post them so if you want some replays of me doing this, tell me how to upload the replay and I will! :D btw I'm a mid-level diamond player :p
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To be honest, I've found that going into late game in PvZ is suicide unless you can constantly engaged the Zerg, and even then that is tricky to say the least. I prefer a FFE on maps like Shakuras, but I feel too unsafe doing them on maps without easy to take naturals. I've found that after a FFE, 6 gate +1 armor is one of the most realiable ways to outright win the game, but I'm sure that will become countered more often. Other builds like 7 gate blink +2 weapons have also been pretty effective for me. Ive only had success with these builds after FFE.
For maps without an easy to take natural, I've found that 1 Gate expo is my best bet so far. Obviously you need to react to what the Zerg is doing, but I've found 3 gate expo is one of the worst things you can do economically to yourself. Either way, early roach pressure off two bases is extremely frustrating when uing these builds.
Some things I've been theory crafting on are getting a double forge after FFE, or an early robo build. Also, I've seen some FFE into stargate, then Chargelot Archon builds which might have some success.
In my opinion, taking your third is not a good idea until you've done some damage to the Zerg. Taking that early third is like saying to the Zerg, "Hey, lets see who can "macro" harder". Obviously, you won't win that battle.
PvZ used to involve the Protoss defending and trying to get a max army, but with Infestor, roach, ling combinations, I don't see how any "Protoss Death Ball" could hold its own, or even get to max. Not to mention, taking your third has become almost impossible, since lings will delaying it forever or just outright destroy it, and Infestors can use infested terran to easily take down a Nexus.
My thoughts, just try and end the game as soon as possible. PvZ is a flawed match-up.
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3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
This is something I've been having problems with.. Maybe it's because I'm behind too much from FFE/lack of pressure, but it seems like the deathball just isn't scary anymore and if it gets past 15 minutes you're looking at infestor/broodlord, AKA the 'zerg deathball'.
I'd also like to get your opinion on composition vs. infestor play:
Ling/infestor-- seems zealot/ht/archon is best here, everything is great against lings and you have feedback for the infestors.
Roach/infestor-- I've heard anihc say stalker/sentry/immo/ht, but this doesn't work for me; immos are usually in the back or at least not the front lines, and then after a fungal they just never join the fight. Blink is still helpful but gets shut down pretty hard. I think I need to use sentries more but it seems like if you get them fungaled they're 100% dead from chained fungal or even roaches, and cost sooo much to replace.
Is collo a viable option instead of HT? stalker/sentry/collo definitely beats roaches, and if you get blink infestors have a reallly hard time doing anything about it.
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On August 11 2011 07:48 Huntz wrote:This is something I've been having problems with.. Maybe it's because I'm behind too much from FFE/lack of pressure, but it seems like the deathball just isn't scary anymore and if it gets past 15 minutes you're looking at infestor/broodlord, AKA the 'zerg deathball'. I'd also like to get your opinion on composition vs. infestor play: Ling/infestor-- seems zealot/ht/archon is best here, everything is great against lings and you have feedback for the infestors. Roach/infestor-- I've heard anihc say stalker/sentry/immo/ht, but this doesn't work for me; immos are usually in the back or at least not the front lines, and then after a fungal they just never join the fight. Blink is still helpful but gets shut down pretty hard. I think I need to use sentries more but it seems like if you get them fungaled they're 100% dead from chained fungal or even roaches, and cost sooo much to replace. Is collo a viable option instead of HT? stalker/sentry/collo definitely beats roaches, and if you get blink infestors have a reallly hard time doing anything about it.
Roach infestor will get destroyed agianst Immortal HT Stalker Sentry. This is the comp I use every time, and see everyone else use. You might just not have enough Immortals, or perhaps bad engagement micro. HT is ideal not so much for storm but FB, so given that I'd say Colo are just going to be NP targets, while HT FB into Archons being much more ideal.
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On August 11 2011 07:48 Huntz wrote:This is something I've been having problems with.. Maybe it's because I'm behind too much from FFE/lack of pressure, but it seems like the deathball just isn't scary anymore and if it gets past 15 minutes you're looking at infestor/broodlord, AKA the 'zerg deathball'. I'd also like to get your opinion on composition vs. infestor play: Ling/infestor-- seems zealot/ht/archon is best here, everything is great against lings and you have feedback for the infestors. Roach/infestor-- I've heard anihc say stalker/sentry/immo/ht, but this doesn't work for me; immos are usually in the back or at least not the front lines, and then after a fungal they just never join the fight. Blink is still helpful but gets shut down pretty hard. I think I need to use sentries more but it seems like if you get them fungaled they're 100% dead from chained fungal or even roaches, and cost sooo much to replace. Is collo a viable option instead of HT? stalker/sentry/collo definitely beats roaches, and if you get blink infestors have a reallly hard time doing anything about it.
I dont think collo is cost efficient vs roaches, until u get 4-6. Usually you wont before they attack. Definitely immortal stalker HT, dont go storms, have HT just for feedback -> archons. get MULTIPLE robos (2 off 2 base, 3 off 3base) to get immortals, they take forever for produce. Immortals in high numbers RIP through roaches, get like 7 or 8 of them with stalker and a couple sentry for GS, keep ur HT for feedbacking infestors and keep obs over their army. Make sure to chrono boost out weapon upgrades. IMO people dont use enough immortals vs a large number of roaches. They arent THAT expensive: compare 2 stalkers to an immortal in terms of cost. In a straight up fight, 20 stalkers vs 20 roach, its very close, but with blink micro you can win it. 10 immortals vs 20 roach is a pretty convincing win. The only reason people get more stalkers is because they are easier to macro up, but i think getting more than 1 robo just to get immortals is something that is really cost efficient and not alot of people do it. ofc blink stalker are more mobile, can atk air and can harass as well, but in a straight up fight immortals are much more cost efficient.
Chargelot archon with +weapons destroys ling infestor. try to spread out ur chargelots just a bit so that u dont get like 20 fungaled at a time, and u can a-move through ling army easily. when they throw blings in there, then it doesnt work as well, but i usually try to hit a 10gate 2base timing with chargelot archon that hits before too many infestors or blings, around 10-11 min.
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+2 Blink Stalker timing attack with 7/8 gateways while taking the third works incredibly well to my advantage sometimes, but other times, my opponent will have infestors out quick enough to fungal and kill my stalkers, which pretty much means delayed pressure coming from this sort of build comes out too late to apply sufficient damage. I'm not sure if there's any other options on a map like taldarim though, as if a zerg just goes hatch first, the best way to punish it is with a cannon rush/contain. It's really a weird situation, because 1gate expand WILL put you at an economic disadvantage vs hatch first.
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I've seen some top protoss (TT1 for example) make FFE in maps like Tal'darim or Shakuras with 1 gas only into a very fast 5 gate with a later gas timing push to punish greedy zergs. You take their 3rd, and take yours, or you can beat it outright.
I totally agree with the necesity of keep surprising the Z in the match up. In a straight game, the match up is broken, in late game the "death ball" is just a leyend, the z eco get fast out of control, and infestor-bling/roach make a cost efficient army. I guess that's why most pros keep playing mostly all-ins in the match up.
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personally i never FFE unless i have to (TDA) as i feel letting the zerg drone 3 bases is suicidal. i also feel that a 1gate FE is too defensive as well, you really cant put any pressure on a Z when you 1gate FE. 3gate FE allows you to get units out fast, and pressure the Z (not necessarily attack him) and get a lot of sentry mana early, good for constant hallucination scouting, and while your economy is weaker, so is his. you can also deny a 3rd if he tries to take it without having an army.
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I have been toying around with warp prisms vs zergs to certain extent, and I have to say it has given me some good results, I usually warp a bunch of zealots, let them kill drones + expo while pretending to engage the zerg. I can usually kill the hatchery.
But I am also having a lot of difficulties in ZvP right now...
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I'm sorry if this isn't relevant enough or has already been discussed but one build that I feel has been very unexplored is the double stalker opening. With this opening you can expand off the 2 initial gates and follow up the two stalkers with a zealot and sentries (or just sentries). From there you can sim city the rest of gates/ forge and constant production off 2 gateways pre warp gate tech will leave you with sufficient forces to fend off early aggression as long as you do not over extend yourself with the 2 initial stalkers.
I understand that against a speedling opening you only have a small window to apply some pressure (retreat by about 5:02 when speed finishes) but in my experience (low masters) this is enough as their expo is delayed with that opening anyway and you are forcing speedlings from larvae instead of drones.
The 2 stalkers can serve a dual purpose as great early game scouts as well. I have found some success with stalker/sentry/ immortal armies with double forges while constantly applying light pressure in the early/midgame with your first 2 stalkers followed by four/five gate pressure off 2 base. Obviously in starcraft you have to respond to your enemies compositions so this doesn't always apply but only after I take a relatively quick third, behind the follow up pressure, I then choose my tech path which is usually a chargelot/ archon composition. After opening stalker/ sentry heavy this seems to throw people off.
Let me know what you guys think. If you don't want to commit on my general mid/late game plan that's fine, but I mostly want to hear what people think about the double stalker opening as fast expand option.
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Here is my Terran view point, regarding engagement position and composition.
I mostly go marine/Thor in my TvZ against +1 roach/ling Comp and win by virtue of positioning.
If roach/ling was coming from 6 and 8 position, and my Thor/marine into 12 o'clock, I split the marines diagonally to flank the roaches while forcing the lings to wrap round the thors and split up; similar effect of forcefields As well as bringing the marine ball into firing range of both targets. I rarely have to stim.
The real threat in roach/ling are the lings, Their vast numbers splitting up the effective fire power of your units while the zerg is free to micro the roaches.
As posted earlier, IMHO stalker/immortal has potential when blinked to the wing(side) of the immortals, letting them get into range unhindered while the stalkers deal with the lings.
Caveat: this assumes near equal min/gas value for both armies.
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EPT
