as we could witness recently, many protoss players are getting more and more out"played" (meaning: outmacroed) in midgame when going for a forge fast expand. This is due to zerg players feeling completely comfortable going for a fast third, knowing that there is 100% certainty of no early pressure at all. Builds like early blink do get countered by extremely fast thirds. + Show Spoiler +
see Nani vs Ret on shakuras, Blizz EU invitational...
Some time ago, the MC fast voidray + phoenixes build was used to great success, forcing the zerg into hydras while securing a third for the protoss. Nevertheless, it really seems like the stargate style has been figured out. Zergs mostly rely on one single spore for each base, drone hard and use mass-queens for defense. They don't cost larvae, are awsome vs protoss air and even when losing some drones to phoenixes, one production-cycle later everything is replenished while the phoenixes have no energy left. Pretty much the same holds true for FFE into DT-openers. A zerg who prepares for stargate, completely blind-counteres DTs. One spore for detection and queens to take them out works like a charm.
EDIT: as people have pointed out, my comparision with BW was wrong.
In SC2, when FFE, protoss has no reliable, threatening way of harassing a zerg who just drones hard off 3 base. Recently protoss-players started to pressure with the first rounds of pure zealot-warp-ins, but even this isn't "that" threatening to a zerg who has map-control with his first lings + OLs (OL scouted gates and no stargate, therefore still spreaded). It slows him down a little, but overall it's tit for tat. P loses all zealots and has to start building sentries from scratch. And P definitely can't secure a third at that point.
So I was asking myself...what really is the big upside compared to a one gate fast expand? I know that Socke and Sase have never been fans of FFE, both specificly said that they didn't like it because any threat of early pressure is just gone. I realize that with a forge FE (or with a 15/16 nexus, if you are comfortable doing that) you are in a better economical position. The real question is: are you in a better economical position looking at the bigger picture? Are you really better off, when you can't put any serious pressure on zerg early on...or more precisely: when zerg KNOWS there won't be any pressure early on. If you one gate expand, zerg always has to account for the possibility of a 4 gate. This threat is very, very real, I've seen many toss players using that on Tal'Darim and Shakuras after they made a wall at the front to make it look like an expo-build. Also there is the huge variety of completely unexplored chrono-boosted-zealot-pressure builds. Meaning, you build one gate, chrono-boost some zealots, send them right to the zerg expo and force them to waste larvae and pull queens (inefficient inject-timings).
I'll stop with the wall of text now and put it up to discussion: in howfar is FFE more efficient when zerg can take an early third? Obviously it must seem like I'm against FFE and in favour of one gate FE, but I've just tried to list some advantages of one gate FE while being completely undecided myself. The crucial point is, that I feel like the only two harassment openings, stargate and DT, have been figured out and don't prevent zerg macro anymore. How do you play FFE against hardcore-droning zergs? Or what do you think about one gate FE instead?
I have to say that recently i have had a lot of Z players 6-8 pool me on maps that FFE is common and so i just don't even try to go for it anymore because i hate losing to these gimmicky strats. As for your question i won't go into which is more economical but with 1-3gate xpand you can fake pressure and even apply some real pressure and make them not build drones which can make you closer in econ to the Z but maybe not really a better econ than FFE will give you but the Z wont be as far ahead b/c of roach/ling building and not drones.
Nowadays Protoss have been transitioning into a faster 3rd off FFE, whether it's a
FFE--->5gate--->3rd FFE---->7gate fake--->3rd
The thing with FFE is that although you have a bigger probe advantage, you have more mineral available early game, but the gas timing for 3rd/4th gas between FFE/1gate expo/3gate expand etc remains relatively the same. However with a fast 3rd transition off FFE, you get access to 5th+6th gas a lot faster so you get your tier 3 composition faster. you can pretty much get a tier 3 200/200 off 6 gas
I mean nowadays i personally feel like if you dont do some sort of 1 or 2 base all-in/timings, then you pretty much have to turtle until 200/200 from my experiences
Hey Sleepingdog, greetings from germany. I have to state, iam a noob, if started with season3 after some month break of sc2.
My experience so far is, i get extremely crushed by zerg. Iam almost 100% doing a FFE. The Problems i encounter are, that Zerg almost always has a bigger (not mass but really bigger) army then me, at any given point. This seems to be due to the hard droning, fast third zerg. (i play even enemies so i guess their macro isnt twice as good as mine).
I was really thinking around what to do, because i dont like to follow builds or guides (just for an inspiration)
So i came up with different things:
Teching/passive playstile off of 2 or 3 bases makes no sense, zerg will overwhelm you. So I lately tried to go FFE 6 gate blink stalker pressure into third base the moment I attack. to be honest, i get crushed, like you stated above.
So i think what i will try next is, to go FFE 6gate blinkstalker +robo (try to kill/annoy the zerg as much as possible with blink+observer) and maybe a warpprism at the third/main at the same time. I guess this gameplan is some sort of risky, but i dont know. Zerg is just pumping hydras at minute 9+ and crushes my FFE. I cant get colossi fast enough, and even if i will get them, i dont have enouugh sentries/gateway units to support 1-2 colossi.
I have to say, the 1 Gate (possible 4gate/pressure) build, is not what i think is right. A good zerg will scout or prepare soemwhat for a push, but i think you will be behind anyways cause of later expo.
Atm i dont really have any idea how to beat zerg, really. What do you think about a FFE build liek stated above?
-6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
My own favorite way to do this is to go for Stargate play, force sporecrawlers and extra queens, possibly Hydras, and then simply 4-6 pheonixes to get map control and from here expand while the Zerg is defending up his 3 bases, I'm sure I've seen a few proreplays where this style is being used, I just can't find them at the moment.
Perfect write-up it exactly describes the current PvZ situation. If you don't apply early pressure, you lose. +1 blink stalkers, stargate, DT or early sentry pressure have been figured out and are well countered if the Zerg isn't too greedy.
The consequence I personally took from this I'm currently only do 1-2 GW expand with a nice wall-off so that he is forced to account for the possibility of early pressure. A small zaelot poke super early can be really good and even if you did FFE you may support the pressure with canons (although I did not yet figure out how to do this effectively).
Edit: Personally, I think it is extremely hard and almost not possible to compete vs. Zerg in an expension race, though I don't have any practical experience with this strategy...
On August 10 2011 18:15 b_unnies wrote: I mean nowadays i personally feel like if you dont do some sort of 1 or 2 base all-in/timings, then you pretty much have to turtle until 200/200 from my experiences
On August 10 2011 18:22 Tryxtira wrote: From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
But don't you think that the zerg then can apply a lot of pressure with hydras or masslings/drops? You cant tech when taking a fast third, and don't have that much army, where zerg can pump alot of army, if you don't scout 100% for hoe many drones he has and what tech he has?
I feel wwaayyyyyyy more comfortable droning up against a FFE than I do a gateway expand. I never know for sure if/when they might attack, but I do know for certain when a FFE player is totally unable to go on the offensive. Maybe it's just me, but gateway expands seem much more difficult to play against. The OP is definitely on to something.
On August 10 2011 18:22 Tryxtira wrote: From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
But don't you think that the zerg then can apply a lot of pressure with hydras or masslings/drops? You cant tech when taking a fast third, and don't have that much army, where zerg can pump alot of army, if you don't scout 100% for hoe many drones he has and what tech he has?
Well, I believe FFE to put you in a tough spot no matter what, I'm convinced however, that any type of two-base-timings should get crushed if the Zerg properly has a ling outside the base and so on, the Zerg just gets so far ahead by being able to safely drone up 3 bases.
Obviously you're extremely dependent on good scouting, this can't be stressed enough, I believe that Zergs will also start doing sneaky things like not saturating the third and simply use it as a macrohatch to fake droning and use some kind of massive roach/ling all-in. Scouting after FFE is just so crucial...
Although I understand what you're trying to say, cosair/reaver was definitely not the reason that forge fe was the standard. In fact, it was/is a very rare strategy and heavily depended on the map.
In theory 1gate fe doesnt exclude a nexus cancel 1base allin or something, but in my experience it leaves you with slightly less economy and the zerg drones just as hard as he would against ffe.
I don't know what the solution is, I feel like I you have to do insane damage just to be even with z.
On August 10 2011 18:19 Pharaun wrote: -6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
This is pretty much exactly what the protoss in the spoiler of my OP tried to do - the problem is, it hits so late that zerg can just overwhelm you with TONS of roaches. The blink-timing really needs to be "prepared" with some sort of an early poke...otherwise the zerg can quite literally spend all of his larvae on drones and penetrate the roach-hotkey after he has hit the 60-70 mark.
Don't get me wrong, blink-stalkers are awsome vs almost anything zerg can throw at you. But if you straight tech to it, you can end up facing a maxed roach army 14 minutes into a game. And not, that's sadly not an exaggeration.
On August 10 2011 18:29 4kmonk wrote: Although I understand what you're trying to say, cosair/reaver was definitely not the reason that forge fe was the standard. In fact, it was/is a very rare strategy and heavily depended on the map.
Ok, my bad then. As I said, my BW-knowledge is quite limited, but I always felt (from watching games) that protoss had better harassment-options which allowed them to play more passively and still compete with hard droning zergs.
On August 10 2011 18:15 b_unnies wrote: Nowadays Protoss have been transitioning into a faster 3rd off FFE, whether it's a
FFE--->5gate--->3rd FFE---->7gate fake--->3rd
The thing with FFE is that although you have a bigger probe advantage, you have more mineral available early game, but the gas timing for 3rd/4th gas between FFE/1gate expo/3gate expand etc remains relatively the same. However with a fast 3rd transition off FFE, you get access to 5th+6th gas a lot faster so you get your tier 3 composition faster. you can pretty much get a tier 3 200/200 off 6 gas
I mean nowadays i personally feel like if you dont do some sort of 1 or 2 base all-in/timings, then you pretty much have to turtle until 200/200 from my experiences
Maybe the builds haven't been refined enough, but HuK got overwhelmed by mass-roach several times I saw him take an early third. What does prevent zerg from just producing roach from 3 hatch once he sees toss throw down the nexus? I feel like a 7 gate fake is even more dangerous, as you will force units...and have potentially very little to deal with them. It is very map-dependent though, on, say, Antiga shipyard the third is VERY well protected and can easily be taken. Same on shattered, etc.
With the forge fast expand now at the higher levels it seems like protosses are cannoning rushing to stop the expansion to also force some units to kill the pylons and cannons. Which could put the protoss also a little farther behind with minerals but may put them to ahead in the mid to late game because zerg had to build units to kills the pylons. Which is less drones and more time not mining on their expansion.
On August 10 2011 18:19 Pharaun wrote: -6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
This is pretty much exactly what the protoss in the spoiler of my OP tried to do - the problem is, it hits so late that zerg can just overwhelm you with TONS of roaches. The blink-timing really needs to be "prepared" with some sort of an early poke...otherwise the zerg can quite literally spend all of his larvae on drones and penetrate the roach-hotkey after he has hit the 60-70 mark.
Don't get me wrong, blink-stalkers are awsome vs almost anything zerg can throw at you. But if you straight tech to it, you can end up facing a maxed roach army 14 minutes into a game. And not, that's sadly not an exaggeration.
Jeah, theoratically you're right. And it also may not be uncommon, but on my level of play at least (diamond) this never happened to me - sure that's no argument, but i can only talk about my experience. As I said, i will try doing this build, esp. with a warpprism as a second harassement tool. I can see that a good Zerg (Masters+) will have the macro and multitasking abbilities to hold this off rather easily i guess. But don't a Zerg, that want so get maxed with roaches at minute 14 (or let it be 15-16 for a diamond player) need preparation? aka good scouting that an atack is comming, or isn't he commiting to hard if the protoss play passive (ok, he might just crush you then ^^).
Since Season one, i played 3 gate into stargate and 5 Phoenixes(edit: FFE 3 gate star or 3gate xpand star, of course not one base), but this also seems not working anymore, since stargate builds became more common since season 1. And you often cannot hold the resulting push from the zerg, neither if you tech to colossi/mass army or take 3 thirds, thats the main problem with this sort of build. You simply cannot do enough damage with 5 phoenixes.
About 1 gate FE - i think it seems more viable now because zerg didn't explore all possible ways of early agression yet. By the way what if zerg does the roach+ling allin that was very popular like 3 months ago in GSL? I don't think you're able to save your nexus, while he has an expo and can start droning anytime.
As for the sair/reaver opening in BW - that's not what made FFE viable in my opinion (I don't know what did) because the strategy wasn't used all that much. Maybe 1 in 6-7 PvZ's.
I think the best way right now to play it is ffe into stargate . You make the stargate before you researching warpgate and you apply preasure while teching to collo and trying to get a third . In worst case you will do no dommage but force more queen and spine and in the best case you can get the third base . However , the really important think is to not loose his voidray even if you don't do any dommages because if you loose it , you can't make anymore preasure and the Z we'll feel way fore comfortable.
It's an interesting argument - Another thing to think about though - if your opponent knows you're 1gate expanding and makes 20+ speedlings and delays and delays your nexus, I feel like you can get in to a bit of trouble. Maybe I just haven't played enough around with it. Also I feel like there might be some early roach busts that sometimes you could scout with random probe scouting but sometimes you might not...
I guess I'm trying to say forge expand might be a bit of a safer 'standard' option? (map dependent i suppose!!)
I think FFE will go the way of the roach hydra corrupter unless toss' find a way to refine it some way. FFE into stargate seems like the most punishable build especially, because the zerg can just either do a 3 hatch 1 gas build or a no gas 3 hatch build (With an even earlier 3rd) and just saturate his bases with 70+ workers with little to no consequences. Your production is powerful enough, and the toss' tech is delayed just long enough to defend against all sorts of mass gate pushes including 7 gate +2 blink stalkers with an obs. The zerg just gets a third way too fast and can drone way too easily. If the toss gets an early third you can just roll it over with roaches and lings. I have a lot more trouble droning and expanding versus 1 gate expos. Don't most EU tosses prefer that anyway? I don't see Sase FFE very much, and in the assembly zvp relays I've been watching I've been seeing less and less FFEs as well, but that's hardly representative. I just feel that 1 gate expo (And 3 gate expo) keeps the zerg more honest with pressure or the threat of pressure.
EPT
