EPT[D] PvZ - FFE vs 1 gate expo - Page 6
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:19 Alejandrisha wrote: Does a 6gate w/o blink work well against roach openers? As in if they open roach you take a 3rd or tech? I'm familiar with a 5gate off of a 3g expo that hits at about that time and am not sure what the advantages of FFE'ing are in that case. Yes, if they have roaches you just don't commit to the attack and run, and then either tech or get your own 3rd. Roaches won't have speed at that time so they can't chase you (lings can chase but zealots>lings). The advantage of FFE is just that you have a much much better economy than 3g expo. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:25 Anihc wrote: Yes, if they have roaches you just don't commit to the attack and run, and then either tech or get your own 3rd. Roaches won't have speed at that time so they can't chase you (lings can chase but zealots>lings). The advantage of FFE is just that you have a much much better economy than 3g expo. Yeah I was just going to mention that most zergs won't have roach speed by the time your 6-gate hits. The more and more I play against this style the more I'm leaning away from Stargate play (I think it is still viable on maps where it is easy to abuse air play however) and toward a heavier gateway style. Because of the lack of roach speed zealots can retreat with little penality and your +1 zealot will tear through lings (which will be 0/0 because of the late evo chamber). Not only that but this initial push either wins you the game outright or forces roaches, which then allows you to safely secure your own 3rd w/o the threat of something like mass mutas. Then you grab blink and go mass blink stalkers to hold your 3rd from aggression and go from there (likely HT to counter his infestor play). But it still goes back to the OP that even if you want to 6-gate, what is the better opening? I prefer 1-gate FE since you get warp-gate tech done faster and zergs won't respond with their own 3rd base until they confirm you have expo'ed yourself, which means the window between them being on 3 bases compared to you on 2 before your push hits is smaller. But it does go back to how unsafe a 1-gate expo feels at times, though if you do manage to hold zerg aggression it does put you quite on good footing considering you forced a lot of units from zerg. Another thing I have been experimenting with with pretty good success is the same old school 3-gate sentry expand but instead of a 3rd gate I toss down a forge and get a fast +1. Most zergs nowadays seem to respond to what appears to be a 3-gate expo with 2-base infestor/ling which you will obliterate with +1 zealots/sentry. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd. Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch. Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right. That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?". If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind. If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots. Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway. I think its a knowledge thing for the most part. Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:45 Skyro wrote: Not only that but this initial push either wins you the game outright or forces roaches, which then allows you to safely secure your own 3rd w/o the threat of something like mass mutas. Actually muta is still a threat, and coincidentally this is what I have the most trouble dealing with. I've lost multiple times to catz, ostojiy, and slush recently because they go 3rd base > roach > muta, and even though I have blink ready or almost ready when they come with mutas, I have a 3rd base and it's much more difficult to defend 3 bases versus only 2 especially on some maps. Mutas just keep me in my base and it's difficult for me to either move out and attack or secure a 4th and 5th. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:46 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been saying this for months. As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd. Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch. Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right. That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?". If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind. If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots. Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway. I think its a knowledge thing for the most part. Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros. Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:55 Anihc wrote: Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE. In my experience at 400 Master, "slightly behind" would then equate to me having a drone lead. The best possible response is for Protoss to have vision of the Drone the entire time and use 2 Zealots (and maybe a few probes) deal with the Hatchery in a timely manner. This leaves me in the position where I have to cancel the hatchery, as allowing it to finish building would be a complete waste. In this position, which is the worst I can think of, I am still typically about 2 drones up by the time I cancel the hatch. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:09 Jermstuddog wrote: In my experience at 400 Master, "slightly behind" would then equate to me having a drone lead. The best possible response is for Protoss to have vision of the Drone the entire time and use 2 Zealots (and maybe a few probes) deal with the Hatchery in a timely manner. This leaves me in the position where I have to cancel the hatchery, as allowing it to finish building would be a complete waste. In this position, which is the worst I can think of, I am still typically about 2 drones up by the time I cancel the hatch. I don't see how you are "2 drones up" compared to had you not proxy hatched at all? How can you be more ahead by starting and canceling a hatchery? The protoss doesn't need to pull any probes to deal with the proxy hatch. There's already a thread that discusses proxy hatch vs FFE in greater detail, search it up for the correct protoss response. There are many disadvantages of FFEing but the threat of proxy hatch is not one of them, at least at high levels of play. Sorry. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:55 Anihc wrote: Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE. So what is the perfect response ? Say I went nexus first and scout the hatch almost as soon as it goes down. Chrono 2 or 3 zealots ? Get a cannon in range ? Edit: oops I must have missed that thread. I'll go check it out. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:51 Anihc wrote: Actually muta is still a threat, and coincidentally this is what I have the most trouble dealing with. I've lost multiple times to catz, ostojiy, and slush recently because they go 3rd base > roach > muta, and even though I have blink ready or almost ready when they come with mutas, I have a 3rd base and it's much more difficult to defend 3 bases versus only 2 especially on some maps. Mutas just keep me in my base and it's difficult for me to either move out and attack or secure a 4th and 5th. I'm curious did you happen to save any of these replays? Was there anytime during this tech switch he seemed weak enough to push? The answer may lie in just keeping pressure on the zerg to force more units. Also by that point in the game you should have observers or hallucination to scout this. Did you just get caught by surprise and just couldn't defend it nor find a window for you to push? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:24 Geiko wrote: So what is the perfect response ? Say I went nexus first and scout the hatch almost as soon as it goes down. Chrono 2 or 3 zealots ? Get a cannon in range ? Edit: oops I must have missed that thread. I'll go check it out. If you can't find it here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=243651 tl;dr: make 2 cannons right next to the hatch, timed so that they finish after the hatch finishes. If zerg cancels, you cancel as well (although both players net loss 75 minerals, zerg is slightly behind since they had to invest in the 300 minerals before the protoss did). If zerg allows hatch to finish and makes roaches, pull some probes + zealot to block roaches from running out of range of cannons (zerg is much more behind because of investment in early roach warren + roaches, protoss only loses like 2 probes + some mining time) | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:32 Skyro wrote: I'm curious did you happen to save any of these replays? Was there anytime during this tech switch he seemed weak enough to push? The answer may lie in just keeping pressure on the zerg to force more units. Also by that point in the game you should have observers or hallucination to scout this. Did you just get caught by surprise and just couldn't defend it nor find a window for you to push? Sorry, I didn't save the replays. You might be able to find my games vs CatZ from CSN after the clash 2 VODs, I'm sure he did it in at least 1 of the games. Yes there is a timing where he would be weak, but unfortunately my style of play involves getting a rather early 3rd (which I get before I can scout mutas), so I get kind of countered by it. If I transition into just standard 2 base blink I would probably fare much better against roach into muta. The mutas don't really catch me off guard and in some cases they do absolutely zero damage as I have blink stalkers ready to defend, but like I said it keeps me in my base and I can't move out or take my 4th/5th as easily as I normally can so I lose later on. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 12 2011 02:05 Anihc wrote: Zerg needs different responses against early warpgate rushes and stargate, and we can use that to our advantage - I've seen someone (mana I think?) open up standard FFE > stargate but also get a quick 4 warpgates, harass with a void ray and then warp in 2 fast rounds of zealots and stream in 8 zealots to easily take out the third which was defended by 2 queens and 2 spores. I'm sure the reverse can be exploited as well - don't take natural gases that fast and go for a standard warpgate rush, but hide a stargate and surprise his 3rd with void rays after he holds off your zealots with roaches. A similar (ab-)use of the metagame can be seen here by HuK vs Darkforce, I'm sure you know the game: He opens stargate single voidray, but even stops producing phoenixes after I think 1-2 and overwhelms darkforce with a very early zealot/sentry attack. I definitely agree that FFE really needs those kinds of pokes. If zerg has defenses you can go back, macro up and be fine. In the game HuK even gets the third nexus behind the attack. I guess getting TC for blink and robo at the same time should be no problem at this point. I think the stargate is useful when doing that, especially if the zerg scouts it, since it most likely will get him in the "produce queens, spores and drones" mindset. If the zerg doesn't spot a stargate he could probably play it more safe...though that didn't happen in Ret vs Nani on shakuras (I guess spoilers are not really needed anymore, no?) | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Forge FE I feel forge FE is better its just tosses don't know how to follow it up. Sure you can go for a cheesy 2 base allin but I feel like Protoss just have to be more willing to put static defense to protect a third. Its unbelievable how effective cannons are, not just at defending an incoming army, but also effectively negating small-medium ling runby's/counterattacks as well as providing detection. A valid argument is that zerg will react to your super macro-focused build and just get 5 bases. But as we've already seen from Lalush's thread, having additional bases beyond 3 is not that much of an advantage. I don't feel like allins are neccesary, or that you can't match a greedy build with your own greedy build. Tosses may have to forgo chronoing probes in order to get a faster third. They may have to play more patiently and rely on just solid mechanics rather than blind all-or-nothing. You may have to forgo sentries so you can get the archons faster or get that +1 in time. The hardest opponets I play are the ones who don't allin. They're the ones who don't try to hit a predetermined timing, but rather attack based on the game itself. The ones who I can't just deny a third because he has a solid defense. And then, rather than try to just go dts or void rays, just hits a sick timing. I mean seriously, toss compositions are the best in the game. On a side note, I feel protoss are pressuring wrong as well. They're trying these mass stalker blink builds but when zerg has good creep spread and goes mass zergling then they win. They try to do void rays but get thwarted by a spore and a queen. The game has evolved beyond pure 6 gate and dt rush. You have to build based on what you see. And play passive until then, but remember that if you CAN keep a third and you CAN get past the "pure roach 200 army", then you will be ahead/dictating the game. One gate FE I also like this build alot as well. It forces zerg to remain alert and ready for any sneaky builds and prepare accordingly. But at the same time zerg has the ability to "infer" what the toss is most likely doing(Sentry count, units warped in, timings of everything, overlords). With these kinds of builds I feel you most definitely can do a 2 base pressure build. Force the zerg to shy from mass droones, then take advantage of your economic lead to hit a push in the mid game is a valid strategy. Even then tosses still take a third after they pressure, not during or right before. Zerg's can't spare that much besides zerglings and small amount of roaches to counterattack when protoss hits those kinds of timings. Especially with good simcity and building placement, the third is mostly safe. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
From my perspective when I play Zerg (mid-Master): There was a time when FFE totally screwed me. Then I realized I don't need to worry for almost 7:30 minutes and I can just go balls out on drones. As stated in the OP, spores and queens cover the Zerg against air and DTs, so realizing that really helped my game vs. FFE. What screws me - and screws me badly - are the myriad of options Protoss has when they expand after gateways. Whether it's 3 gate expand, 1 gate expand, 2 gate expand... I feel like I never know exactly what attack is coming, or when it's coming. Any of those can turn into a 4 gate, a 6 gate, a 7 gate, 3 gate robotics tech, 6 gate blink stalker, fake expands, I've even seen 6 gate stalker with VRs. It feels so much harder to scout, especially because those early gates provide stalkers that can pick off my slow OLs. Hiding your tech and units (like sentry counts) where my lings can't see them at the front also helps. Ultimately, I hope Protoss keeps going FFE because I feel safest with that build. From my perspective, though - I really think the more dangerous builds are the gateway expands because they're just so freaking unpredictable. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I want to go play like 40 games in ZvP just doing proxy hatches vs FFE now  | ||
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thisisSSK
United States179 Posts
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sebsejr
213 Posts
probably will change when i get past diamond though. /dunno | ||
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