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Not too long ago I was playing a ZvP on Shakuras and my opponent managed to wall me off with three pylons before putting down a cannon and expanding. Without the pylons and cannon I normally just expand against a forge fast expand build from Protoss, but in this case I had no such option; so I took those 300 minerals and my scouting drone and built a proxy hatchery in my opponent's base. Threw down a quick roach warren, and my opponent didn't scout my hatchery until it was too late. Obvious victory.
However, even more recently I was playing another ZvP in close positions. I recognize the unfairness in general of this sort of spawn location in the matchup, so I resolved to cheese my opponent and just get it over with: another proxy hatchery. This one was scouted pretty much right away. Not to mention, my opponent in this case didn't go for a forge first, or even a forge at all, he had gone for a standard 3 gate. He pulled probes to hit my hatchery, even got two zealots and a sentry into the fray before it popped, but even still I managed to get 4 roaches out of the thing before it went down, dealing enough damage to my opponent to solidly place me in the lead.
Now I'm not suggesting that we go for a proxy hatchery against 3 gate expand builds, but what if we do against forge first builds? The very delayed gateway could mean that it would turn out to be extremely viable, even if it was placed down right before the Protoss player's eyes: their only options are to pull a LOT of probes (which only works on some maps) or to build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
TL;DR: Protoss has no cost-effective way of dealing with a proxy hatchery if they go for a forge fast expand, so is forcing them to try a good idea?
Thoughts? ^-^
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On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons.
This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind.
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On July 14 2011 08:39 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons. This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind.
Are you sure? If the cannons finish after the hatchery then an intelligently placed hatchery could pump out a few roaches in position to do damage outside of the cannon's range, and then you can just take out his nexus or camp his mineral line, whatever you can to do enough damage to cover the hatchery minus the cannons plus the roaches.
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Proxy hatch roaches against FE is a build order win if the hatchery completes.
But you're still relying on your opponent to make a mistake...
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On July 14 2011 08:45 MrBitter wrote:
Proxy hatch roaches against FE is a build order win if the hatchery completes.
But you're still relying on your opponent to make a mistake...
Looked at your name and did a double take; I'm watching your stream right now, must've looked away for a bit too long to see you typing 
I'm curious, what mistake am I relying on my opponent making?
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Another strategy you can do against the FFE is 14/14 Ling/Baneling - You have to be very aggressive with denying probe scouts but you can make it look like you're going 14/14 20Hatch and really just throw down the nest at 21 or so and mass Zlings. Morph in banes and go with first or 2nd larva inject depending on the timing you prefer. Most protoss will just have 1 cannon and a zealot.
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On July 14 2011 08:43 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 08:39 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons. This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind. Are you sure? If the cannons finish after the hatchery then an intelligently placed hatchery could pump out a few roaches in position to do damage outside of the cannon's range, and then you can just take out his nexus or camp his mineral line, whatever you can to do enough damage to cover the hatchery minus the cannons plus the roaches.
UmiNotsuki, I agree with you.
I once countered an inbase proxy hatch with 2 cannons, timing the cannons so that there would be no hatch cancel(cannons finished just after hatchery).
Several roaches got up, out of range of cannons, and wreaked havoc in my base eventually taking down my nexus.
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On July 14 2011 08:43 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 08:39 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons. This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind. Are you sure? If the cannons finish after the hatchery then an intelligently placed hatchery could pump out a few roaches in position to do damage outside of the cannon's range, and then you can just take out his nexus or camp his mineral line, whatever you can to do enough damage to cover the hatchery minus the cannons plus the roaches.
Yes I am sure. I don't think anyone has been the victim of proxy hatch as much as me (well... victim may not be the right word. I come out on top most of the time now :p). Cannons can be placed intelligently as well so that they flank the hatch and are placed close to it (instead of far away). A zealot should finish in time to join the fight. You can spawn 3 roaches but if you pull a few probes to surround the eggs as they hatch the worst that can happen for you is that a damaged roach or 2 escapes and you chase it down and kill it a few seconds later. You may lose a few probes but the zerg has lost a lot more. If you want to be even more safe, add a 3rd cannon if you see that the hatch is allowed to complete. Cancel if no roaches are made.
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On July 14 2011 09:04 TangSC wrote:
Another strategy you can do against the FFE is 14/14 Ling/Baneling - You have to be very aggressive with denying probe scouts but you can make it look like you're going 14/14 20Hatch and really just throw down the nest at 21 or so and mass Zlings. Morph in banes and go with first or 2nd larva inject depending on the timing you prefer. Most protoss will just have 1 cannon and a zealot.
Yeah, and if I were discussing cheese you'd probably have just given me a better option... I'm just feeling that this isn't cheese because I don't see what an opponent could do to avoid damage, implicit or otherwise. Even if it's scouted.
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Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before.
However a proxy hatch in their base could win you the game just as could a proxy hatch just outside their wall followed by spine crawlers and units to flood once the wall goes down (assuming its fast enough otherwise he will have units to deal with it) its just not the best strategy in this scenario, going hydra off 1 base and nydusing a corner of their main will do far more damage if the nydus gets up then a proxy hatch, you will also have teched in a way that will shutdown a stargate follow up and leaves you options to fall back on.
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On July 14 2011 09:10 Sightbain wrote:
Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before.
This is what I'm hearing, but it's so vague. How will they deal with it? They have few units, if any, and can't put down any cannons without leapfrogging them, which will be cost-ineffective and put me ahead even if my roaches don't kill anything. I can kill units, kill probes, snipe pylons, even kill his nexus if I get into a good enough position.
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On July 14 2011 09:15 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 09:10 Sightbain wrote:
Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before. This is what I'm hearing, but it's so vague. How will they deal with it? They have few units, if any, and can't put down any cannons without leapfrogging them, which will be cost-ineffective and put me ahead even if my roaches don't kill anything. I can kill units, kill probes, snipe pylons, even kill his nexus if I get into a good enough position.
See my previous post on how to correctly deal with it. If the hatch goes up and there are no cannons in range of it though, it will certainly pay off.
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On July 14 2011 09:18 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 09:15 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 09:10 Sightbain wrote:
Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before. This is what I'm hearing, but it's so vague. How will they deal with it? They have few units, if any, and can't put down any cannons without leapfrogging them, which will be cost-ineffective and put me ahead even if my roaches don't kill anything. I can kill units, kill probes, snipe pylons, even kill his nexus if I get into a good enough position. See my previous post on how to correctly deal with it. If the hatch goes up and there are no cannons in range of it though, it will certainly pay off.
Sorry, didn't see that post just earlier. To reply,
Zerg losses:
-A hatchery (300 minerals)
-3 roaches
Protoss costs:
-2 cannons (300 minerals)
-At least two probes
So the question becomes, can I place my hatchery in such a way that you can't get cannons in range of my roaches as they spawn AND shoot at the hatchery AND surround my eggs with probes WITHOUT losing them and letting the roaches escape to do enough damage to pay for themselves. I can't honestly say I have an answer for that question, but I'd bet a good deal that it's "yes" on most maps and spawn positions. Remember that whether or not you see it should be trivial, and putting my hatch in your natural, for instance in a position to block your nexus or otherwise, may be the best option.
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On July 14 2011 09:25 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 09:18 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 09:15 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 09:10 Sightbain wrote:
Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before. This is what I'm hearing, but it's so vague. How will they deal with it? They have few units, if any, and can't put down any cannons without leapfrogging them, which will be cost-ineffective and put me ahead even if my roaches don't kill anything. I can kill units, kill probes, snipe pylons, even kill his nexus if I get into a good enough position. See my previous post on how to correctly deal with it. If the hatch goes up and there are no cannons in range of it though, it will certainly pay off. Sorry, didn't see that post just earlier. To reply, Zerg losses: -A hatchery (300 minerals) -3 roaches Protoss costs: -2 cannons (300 minerals) -At least two probes So the question becomes, can I place my hatchery in such a way that you can't get cannons in range of my roaches as they spawn AND shoot at the hatchery AND surround my eggs with probes WITHOUT losing them and letting the roaches escape to do enough damage to pay for themselves. I can't honestly say I have an answer for that question, but I'd bet a good deal that it's "yes" on most maps and spawn positions. Remember that whether or not you see it should be trivial, and putting my hatch in your natural, for instance in a position to block your nexus or otherwise, may be the best option.
Ok now you're just not thinking... either you place your hatch outside my base, where I respond to it like I would respond to any early roach pressure... or you place your hatch inside my base, where I build 2 cannons right next to it. I don't understand what map or spawn position has to do with this at all.
Putting the hatch to block my nat nexus is a common strat as well, but the only viable follow up to that is to immediately cancel and use the creep to make a evo chamber to delay my nexus. There is no way that that hatch will finish to make roaches because I'm making cannons there regardless.
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On July 14 2011 09:33 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 09:25 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 09:18 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 09:15 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 09:10 Sightbain wrote:
Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before. This is what I'm hearing, but it's so vague. How will they deal with it? They have few units, if any, and can't put down any cannons without leapfrogging them, which will be cost-ineffective and put me ahead even if my roaches don't kill anything. I can kill units, kill probes, snipe pylons, even kill his nexus if I get into a good enough position. See my previous post on how to correctly deal with it. If the hatch goes up and there are no cannons in range of it though, it will certainly pay off. Sorry, didn't see that post just earlier. To reply, Zerg losses: -A hatchery (300 minerals) -3 roaches Protoss costs: -2 cannons (300 minerals) -At least two probes So the question becomes, can I place my hatchery in such a way that you can't get cannons in range of my roaches as they spawn AND shoot at the hatchery AND surround my eggs with probes WITHOUT losing them and letting the roaches escape to do enough damage to pay for themselves. I can't honestly say I have an answer for that question, but I'd bet a good deal that it's "yes" on most maps and spawn positions. Remember that whether or not you see it should be trivial, and putting my hatch in your natural, for instance in a position to block your nexus or otherwise, may be the best option. Ok now you're just not thinking... either you place your hatch outside my base, where I respond to it like I would respond to any early roach pressure... or you place your hatch inside my base, where I build 2 cannons right next to it. I don't understand what map or spawn position has to do with this at all. Putting the hatch to block my nat nexus is a common strat as well, but the only viable follow up to that is to immediately cancel and use the creep to make a evo chamber to delay my nexus. There is no way that that hatch will finish to make roaches because I'm making cannons there regardless.
Alright, then you build two cannons, they finish shortly after my hatchery and are within range of my larvae, so I build no units out of them. Costs you 300 minerals, costs me 300 minerals, because you responded properly. I'm just saying that this is a good idea, yes? I win if you don't scout it, do damage if you scout it but respond inappropriately, and lose nothing if you respond perfectly.
EDIT: Another option, you build two cannons so I cancel my hatchery just before whichever would finish first would do so, and even if yo cancel your cannons I get to decide whether we both get set back 300 minerals or if we don't, which might allow me to expand faster as a follow up.
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Echoing Anihc, the only time proxy hatch has worked against me is when it wasnt scouted, or when I scouted but didn't respond correctly.
It's really just the same as dealing with any other 'in-base' cheese - scouting it, and knowing how to respond.
I think once you get proxy hatch'd in-base and lose; the next time you deny a hatch first, or see no hatch with your scout, you're going to auto-pilot check your base for proxy hatch.
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On July 14 2011 09:46 UmiNotsuki wrote:
Alright, then you build two cannons, they finish shortly after my hatchery and are within range of my larvae, so I build no units out of them. Costs you 300 minerals, costs me 300 minerals, because you responded properly. I'm just saying that this is a good idea, yes? I win if you don't scout it, do damage if you scout it but respond inappropriately, and lose nothing if you respond perfectly.
EDIT: Another option, you build two cannons so I cancel my hatchery just before whichever would finish first would do so, and even if yo cancel your cannons I get to decide whether we both get set back 300 minerals or if we don't, which might allow me to expand faster as a follow up.
Costs you 350 (drone).
But assuming you're still talking about FFE, the protoss will already have his nexus completed/close to completion - and you're going to be expanding far later than you usually would - so in terms of mineral investment, you're pretty even - but taking the whole state of the game into consideration.. you're miles behind.
Edit: if you're 100% going to lose your natural hatch to cannon rush, or have it denied long enough.. on some maps you can opt to take your 3rd as your first expo. Yes he can attempt to go cannon that as well- but by then you should well and truly have some zerglings on the field.
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On July 14 2011 09:51 Trusty wrote:
Echoing Anihc, the only time proxy hatch has worked against me is when it wasnt scouted, or when I scouted but didn't respond correctly.
It's really just the same as dealing with any other 'in-base' cheese - scouting it, and knowing how to respond.
I think once you get proxy hatch'd in-base and lose; the next time you deny a hatch first, or see no hatch with your scout, you're going to auto-pilot check your base for proxy hatch.
I very much agree that it's likely to be scouted. My point is that this is irrelevant against FFE'ing players.
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On July 14 2011 09:55 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I very much agree that it's likely to be scouted. My point is that this is irrelevant against FFE'ing players.
I would say it's more effective against nexus first, than forge first. I think you can get quite a few wins on the ladder. I'm sure not many protoss are aware of the best way to deal with an in-base hatch, because let's be honest, it's pretty strange to see it happening for the first time!
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On July 14 2011 09:55 Trusty wrote:
But assuming you're still talking about FFE, the protoss will already have his nexus completed/close to completion - and you're going to be expanding far later than you usually would - so in terms of mineral investment, you're pretty even - but taking the whole state of the game into consideration.. you're miles behind.
This may very well be true, but I feel that if it's scouted early enough and responded to promptly and correctly, I can simply cancel, double expand and drone like crazy; more than enough to catch up, no? The FFE is *still going to have zero map presence and absolutely minimal numbers of units, and the losses from a slightly later (50 seconds or so, I'd say) double expansion will likely never determine the outcome of this sort of game.
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EPT
