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On July 14 2011 09:46 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 09:33 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 09:25 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 09:18 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 09:15 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 09:10 Sightbain wrote:
Not scouting it, not setting up proper defenses to deal with it once it finishes. Those are the mistakes your relying on. Even if you get 4 roaches into his base your unlikely yo kill their entire probe line unless they panic and don't make a single cannon or unit to defend it. Also you have dedicated 300 minerals a roach warren and the resources to make the roaches in their base, but if it was scouted all of it will be dealt with shortly and you will be even further behind then you were before. This is what I'm hearing, but it's so vague. How will they deal with it? They have few units, if any, and can't put down any cannons without leapfrogging them, which will be cost-ineffective and put me ahead even if my roaches don't kill anything. I can kill units, kill probes, snipe pylons, even kill his nexus if I get into a good enough position. See my previous post on how to correctly deal with it. If the hatch goes up and there are no cannons in range of it though, it will certainly pay off. Sorry, didn't see that post just earlier. To reply, Zerg losses: -A hatchery (300 minerals) -3 roaches Protoss costs: -2 cannons (300 minerals) -At least two probes So the question becomes, can I place my hatchery in such a way that you can't get cannons in range of my roaches as they spawn AND shoot at the hatchery AND surround my eggs with probes WITHOUT losing them and letting the roaches escape to do enough damage to pay for themselves. I can't honestly say I have an answer for that question, but I'd bet a good deal that it's "yes" on most maps and spawn positions. Remember that whether or not you see it should be trivial, and putting my hatch in your natural, for instance in a position to block your nexus or otherwise, may be the best option. Ok now you're just not thinking... either you place your hatch outside my base, where I respond to it like I would respond to any early roach pressure... or you place your hatch inside my base, where I build 2 cannons right next to it. I don't understand what map or spawn position has to do with this at all. Putting the hatch to block my nat nexus is a common strat as well, but the only viable follow up to that is to immediately cancel and use the creep to make a evo chamber to delay my nexus. There is no way that that hatch will finish to make roaches because I'm making cannons there regardless. Alright, then you build two cannons, they finish shortly after my hatchery and are within range of my larvae, so I build no units out of them. Costs you 300 minerals, costs me 300 minerals, because you responded properly. I'm just saying that this is a good idea, yes? I win if you don't scout it, do damage if you scout it but respond inappropriately, and lose nothing if you respond perfectly. EDIT: Another option, you build two cannons so I cancel my hatchery just before whichever would finish first would do so, and even if yo cancel your cannons I get to decide whether we both get set back 300 minerals or if we don't, which might allow me to expand faster as a follow up.
It's still a disadvantage to you because you have to invest those 300 minerals much earlier than I do. 300 minerals at 5 minutes into the game is not the same as 300 minerals 10 minutes into the game (exaggeration, but you get the idea).
Also again you're not making much sense, how does spending 300 for a hatch then cancelling allow you to expand faster?
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On July 14 2011 10:02 UmiNotsuki wrote:
This may very well be true, but I feel that if it's scouted early enough and responded to promptly and correctly, I can simply cancel, double expand and drone like crazy; more than enough to catch up, no? The FFE is *still going to have zero map presence and absolutely minimal numbers of units, and the losses from a slightly later (50 seconds or so, I'd say) double expansion will likely never determine the outcome of this sort of game.
Hmm that is quite possible... I think it can't really be discussed that far (proxy hatch cancel into double expo).. As a protoss player, my gut tells me you should be behind..
I'd like to see some games with this scenario 'played-out'... I'm able to play in 4 hours if you're keen.. Trusty.795 on NA.
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On July 14 2011 09:07 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 08:43 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 08:39 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons. This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind. Are you sure? If the cannons finish after the hatchery then an intelligently placed hatchery could pump out a few roaches in position to do damage outside of the cannon's range, and then you can just take out his nexus or camp his mineral line, whatever you can to do enough damage to cover the hatchery minus the cannons plus the roaches. UmiNotsuki, I agree with you. I once countered an inbase proxy hatch with 2 cannons, timing the cannons so that there would be no hatch cancel(cannons finished just after hatchery). Several roaches got up, out of range of cannons, and wreaked havoc in my base eventually taking down my nexus.
I take this back, LOL
i JUST played against proxy hatch when I ffe and this time i dealt with it better and stopped it
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in my opinion the most powerful place to put the proxy hatch is right outside his cannon wall (right outside his natural). this allows you to defend it with lings/roaches, and once its done you make a queen there (for creepspread from his base to yours lol. double creep highway) and the first few larva spent on drones to make spine crawlers
most protoss put cannons BEHIND things (like gateways) to have protected cannons. if the protoss puts his cannons in front of his gateways, they are fresh targets for your roaches.
either way, the toss cannot really contest your proxy hatchery right outside his base. imo this is a stronger way of doing the "spine crawler aggression" compared to using a overlord
next your spine crawlers can kill the gateways/cybers that are protecting his cannons and easily roach bust his unprotected cannons
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On July 14 2011 10:13 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 09:07 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 08:43 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 08:39 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons. This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind. Are you sure? If the cannons finish after the hatchery then an intelligently placed hatchery could pump out a few roaches in position to do damage outside of the cannon's range, and then you can just take out his nexus or camp his mineral line, whatever you can to do enough damage to cover the hatchery minus the cannons plus the roaches. UmiNotsuki, I agree with you. I once countered an inbase proxy hatch with 2 cannons, timing the cannons so that there would be no hatch cancel(cannons finished just after hatchery). Several roaches got up, out of range of cannons, and wreaked havoc in my base eventually taking down my nexus. I take this back, LOL i JUST played against proxy hatch when I ffe and this time i dealt with it better and stopped it
Do tell, what happened?
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On July 14 2011 10:47 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 10:13 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 09:07 travis wrote:On July 14 2011 08:43 UmiNotsuki wrote:On July 14 2011 08:39 Anihc wrote:On July 14 2011 08:33 UmiNotsuki wrote:
build a pylon and at least 2 cannons in range of the hatchery (in which case we could allow the cannons to finish before cancelling our hatchery and gaining an advantage by forcing extra cannons for only the cost of a cancelled hatchery.
You can't "allow" this. The Protoss times his cannons so that they complete after your hatch completes so that if you cancel your hatch he can cancel his cannons. This is a cool strat but it relies on the Protoss not scouting it or responding incorrectly. If the Protoss responds correctly (and it doesn't require special micro or anything to respond correctly, only knowing what to do), you will just put yourself behind. Are you sure? If the cannons finish after the hatchery then an intelligently placed hatchery could pump out a few roaches in position to do damage outside of the cannon's range, and then you can just take out his nexus or camp his mineral line, whatever you can to do enough damage to cover the hatchery minus the cannons plus the roaches. UmiNotsuki, I agree with you. I once countered an inbase proxy hatch with 2 cannons, timing the cannons so that there would be no hatch cancel(cannons finished just after hatchery). Several roaches got up, out of range of cannons, and wreaked havoc in my base eventually taking down my nexus. I take this back, LOL i JUST played against proxy hatch when I ffe and this time i dealt with it better and stopped it Do tell, what happened?
I put 2 cannons right up next to the hatchery to shoot at it and rallied a zealot there. I kept the zealot hitting the hatchery and as roaches popped out cannons killed them. Out of like 5 roaches 3 got away from the cannons with a small amount of life. They ended up killing some probes but a chronoboosted stalker dealt with them and the zerg was way too far behind to win the game.
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Here's something I (1650 masters) find really good against P--go hatch first on Shakuras Plateau/Tal'Darim Altar, and proxy hatch if they cannon rush. I have a ~80% win rate doing that, simply because pulling off a cannon rush is distracting at a time when you really need to be watching your base. And the money that you're spending on the rush means that you can't afford the cannons you need in your base to defend even if you do scout it. What's interesting I've never seen it used at the pro level after a failed hatch-first (Even though stock proxy hatches work occasionally) as a response to cannon rush; why isn't it viable as a last-ditch effort instead of simply gg'ing?
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EPT
