as we could witness recently, many protoss players are getting more and more out"played" (meaning: outmacroed) in midgame when going for a forge fast expand. This is due to zerg players feeling completely comfortable going for a fast third, knowing that there is 100% certainty of no early pressure at all. Builds like early blink do get countered by extremely fast thirds. + Show Spoiler +
see Nani vs Ret on shakuras, Blizz EU invitational...
Some time ago, the MC fast voidray + phoenixes build was used to great success, forcing the zerg into hydras while securing a third for the protoss. Nevertheless, it really seems like the stargate style has been figured out. Zergs mostly rely on one single spore for each base, drone hard and use mass-queens for defense. They don't cost larvae, are awsome vs protoss air and even when losing some drones to phoenixes, one production-cycle later everything is replenished while the phoenixes have no energy left. Pretty much the same holds true for FFE into DT-openers. A zerg who prepares for stargate, completely blind-counteres DTs. One spore for detection and queens to take them out works like a charm.
EDIT: as people have pointed out, my comparision with BW was wrong.
In SC2, when FFE, protoss has no reliable, threatening way of harassing a zerg who just drones hard off 3 base. Recently protoss-players started to pressure with the first rounds of pure zealot-warp-ins, but even this isn't "that" threatening to a zerg who has map-control with his first lings + OLs (OL scouted gates and no stargate, therefore still spreaded). It slows him down a little, but overall it's tit for tat. P loses all zealots and has to start building sentries from scratch. And P definitely can't secure a third at that point.
So I was asking myself...what really is the big upside compared to a one gate fast expand? I know that Socke and Sase have never been fans of FFE, both specificly said that they didn't like it because any threat of early pressure is just gone. I realize that with a forge FE (or with a 15/16 nexus, if you are comfortable doing that) you are in a better economical position. The real question is: are you in a better economical position looking at the bigger picture? Are you really better off, when you can't put any serious pressure on zerg early on...or more precisely: when zerg KNOWS there won't be any pressure early on. If you one gate expand, zerg always has to account for the possibility of a 4 gate. This threat is very, very real, I've seen many toss players using that on Tal'Darim and Shakuras after they made a wall at the front to make it look like an expo-build. Also there is the huge variety of completely unexplored chrono-boosted-zealot-pressure builds. Meaning, you build one gate, chrono-boost some zealots, send them right to the zerg expo and force them to waste larvae and pull queens (inefficient inject-timings).
I'll stop with the wall of text now and put it up to discussion: in howfar is FFE more efficient when zerg can take an early third? Obviously it must seem like I'm against FFE and in favour of one gate FE, but I've just tried to list some advantages of one gate FE while being completely undecided myself. The crucial point is, that I feel like the only two harassment openings, stargate and DT, have been figured out and don't prevent zerg macro anymore. How do you play FFE against hardcore-droning zergs? Or what do you think about one gate FE instead?
I have to say that recently i have had a lot of Z players 6-8 pool me on maps that FFE is common and so i just don't even try to go for it anymore because i hate losing to these gimmicky strats. As for your question i won't go into which is more economical but with 1-3gate xpand you can fake pressure and even apply some real pressure and make them not build drones which can make you closer in econ to the Z but maybe not really a better econ than FFE will give you but the Z wont be as far ahead b/c of roach/ling building and not drones.
Nowadays Protoss have been transitioning into a faster 3rd off FFE, whether it's a
FFE--->5gate--->3rd FFE---->7gate fake--->3rd
The thing with FFE is that although you have a bigger probe advantage, you have more mineral available early game, but the gas timing for 3rd/4th gas between FFE/1gate expo/3gate expand etc remains relatively the same. However with a fast 3rd transition off FFE, you get access to 5th+6th gas a lot faster so you get your tier 3 composition faster. you can pretty much get a tier 3 200/200 off 6 gas
I mean nowadays i personally feel like if you dont do some sort of 1 or 2 base all-in/timings, then you pretty much have to turtle until 200/200 from my experiences
Hey Sleepingdog, greetings from germany. I have to state, iam a noob, if started with season3 after some month break of sc2.
My experience so far is, i get extremely crushed by zerg. Iam almost 100% doing a FFE. The Problems i encounter are, that Zerg almost always has a bigger (not mass but really bigger) army then me, at any given point. This seems to be due to the hard droning, fast third zerg. (i play even enemies so i guess their macro isnt twice as good as mine).
I was really thinking around what to do, because i dont like to follow builds or guides (just for an inspiration)
So i came up with different things:
Teching/passive playstile off of 2 or 3 bases makes no sense, zerg will overwhelm you. So I lately tried to go FFE 6 gate blink stalker pressure into third base the moment I attack. to be honest, i get crushed, like you stated above.
So i think what i will try next is, to go FFE 6gate blinkstalker +robo (try to kill/annoy the zerg as much as possible with blink+observer) and maybe a warpprism at the third/main at the same time. I guess this gameplan is some sort of risky, but i dont know. Zerg is just pumping hydras at minute 9+ and crushes my FFE. I cant get colossi fast enough, and even if i will get them, i dont have enouugh sentries/gateway units to support 1-2 colossi.
I have to say, the 1 Gate (possible 4gate/pressure) build, is not what i think is right. A good zerg will scout or prepare soemwhat for a push, but i think you will be behind anyways cause of later expo.
Atm i dont really have any idea how to beat zerg, really. What do you think about a FFE build liek stated above?
-6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
My own favorite way to do this is to go for Stargate play, force sporecrawlers and extra queens, possibly Hydras, and then simply 4-6 pheonixes to get map control and from here expand while the Zerg is defending up his 3 bases, I'm sure I've seen a few proreplays where this style is being used, I just can't find them at the moment.
Perfect write-up it exactly describes the current PvZ situation. If you don't apply early pressure, you lose. +1 blink stalkers, stargate, DT or early sentry pressure have been figured out and are well countered if the Zerg isn't too greedy.
The consequence I personally took from this I'm currently only do 1-2 GW expand with a nice wall-off so that he is forced to account for the possibility of early pressure. A small zaelot poke super early can be really good and even if you did FFE you may support the pressure with canons (although I did not yet figure out how to do this effectively).
Edit: Personally, I think it is extremely hard and almost not possible to compete vs. Zerg in an expension race, though I don't have any practical experience with this strategy...
On August 10 2011 18:15 b_unnies wrote: I mean nowadays i personally feel like if you dont do some sort of 1 or 2 base all-in/timings, then you pretty much have to turtle until 200/200 from my experiences
On August 10 2011 18:22 Tryxtira wrote: From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
But don't you think that the zerg then can apply a lot of pressure with hydras or masslings/drops? You cant tech when taking a fast third, and don't have that much army, where zerg can pump alot of army, if you don't scout 100% for hoe many drones he has and what tech he has?
I feel wwaayyyyyyy more comfortable droning up against a FFE than I do a gateway expand. I never know for sure if/when they might attack, but I do know for certain when a FFE player is totally unable to go on the offensive. Maybe it's just me, but gateway expands seem much more difficult to play against. The OP is definitely on to something.
On August 10 2011 18:22 Tryxtira wrote: From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
But don't you think that the zerg then can apply a lot of pressure with hydras or masslings/drops? You cant tech when taking a fast third, and don't have that much army, where zerg can pump alot of army, if you don't scout 100% for hoe many drones he has and what tech he has?
Well, I believe FFE to put you in a tough spot no matter what, I'm convinced however, that any type of two-base-timings should get crushed if the Zerg properly has a ling outside the base and so on, the Zerg just gets so far ahead by being able to safely drone up 3 bases.
Obviously you're extremely dependent on good scouting, this can't be stressed enough, I believe that Zergs will also start doing sneaky things like not saturating the third and simply use it as a macrohatch to fake droning and use some kind of massive roach/ling all-in. Scouting after FFE is just so crucial...
Although I understand what you're trying to say, cosair/reaver was definitely not the reason that forge fe was the standard. In fact, it was/is a very rare strategy and heavily depended on the map.
In theory 1gate fe doesnt exclude a nexus cancel 1base allin or something, but in my experience it leaves you with slightly less economy and the zerg drones just as hard as he would against ffe.
I don't know what the solution is, I feel like I you have to do insane damage just to be even with z.
On August 10 2011 18:19 Pharaun wrote: -6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
This is pretty much exactly what the protoss in the spoiler of my OP tried to do - the problem is, it hits so late that zerg can just overwhelm you with TONS of roaches. The blink-timing really needs to be "prepared" with some sort of an early poke...otherwise the zerg can quite literally spend all of his larvae on drones and penetrate the roach-hotkey after he has hit the 60-70 mark.
Don't get me wrong, blink-stalkers are awsome vs almost anything zerg can throw at you. But if you straight tech to it, you can end up facing a maxed roach army 14 minutes into a game. And not, that's sadly not an exaggeration.
On August 10 2011 18:29 4kmonk wrote: Although I understand what you're trying to say, cosair/reaver was definitely not the reason that forge fe was the standard. In fact, it was/is a very rare strategy and heavily depended on the map.
Ok, my bad then. As I said, my BW-knowledge is quite limited, but I always felt (from watching games) that protoss had better harassment-options which allowed them to play more passively and still compete with hard droning zergs.
On August 10 2011 18:15 b_unnies wrote: Nowadays Protoss have been transitioning into a faster 3rd off FFE, whether it's a
FFE--->5gate--->3rd FFE---->7gate fake--->3rd
The thing with FFE is that although you have a bigger probe advantage, you have more mineral available early game, but the gas timing for 3rd/4th gas between FFE/1gate expo/3gate expand etc remains relatively the same. However with a fast 3rd transition off FFE, you get access to 5th+6th gas a lot faster so you get your tier 3 composition faster. you can pretty much get a tier 3 200/200 off 6 gas
I mean nowadays i personally feel like if you dont do some sort of 1 or 2 base all-in/timings, then you pretty much have to turtle until 200/200 from my experiences
Maybe the builds haven't been refined enough, but HuK got overwhelmed by mass-roach several times I saw him take an early third. What does prevent zerg from just producing roach from 3 hatch once he sees toss throw down the nexus? I feel like a 7 gate fake is even more dangerous, as you will force units...and have potentially very little to deal with them. It is very map-dependent though, on, say, Antiga shipyard the third is VERY well protected and can easily be taken. Same on shattered, etc.
With the forge fast expand now at the higher levels it seems like protosses are cannoning rushing to stop the expansion to also force some units to kill the pylons and cannons. Which could put the protoss also a little farther behind with minerals but may put them to ahead in the mid to late game because zerg had to build units to kills the pylons. Which is less drones and more time not mining on their expansion.
On August 10 2011 18:19 Pharaun wrote: -6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
This is pretty much exactly what the protoss in the spoiler of my OP tried to do - the problem is, it hits so late that zerg can just overwhelm you with TONS of roaches. The blink-timing really needs to be "prepared" with some sort of an early poke...otherwise the zerg can quite literally spend all of his larvae on drones and penetrate the roach-hotkey after he has hit the 60-70 mark.
Don't get me wrong, blink-stalkers are awsome vs almost anything zerg can throw at you. But if you straight tech to it, you can end up facing a maxed roach army 14 minutes into a game. And not, that's sadly not an exaggeration.
Jeah, theoratically you're right. And it also may not be uncommon, but on my level of play at least (diamond) this never happened to me - sure that's no argument, but i can only talk about my experience. As I said, i will try doing this build, esp. with a warpprism as a second harassement tool. I can see that a good Zerg (Masters+) will have the macro and multitasking abbilities to hold this off rather easily i guess. But don't a Zerg, that want so get maxed with roaches at minute 14 (or let it be 15-16 for a diamond player) need preparation? aka good scouting that an atack is comming, or isn't he commiting to hard if the protoss play passive (ok, he might just crush you then ^^).
Since Season one, i played 3 gate into stargate and 5 Phoenixes(edit: FFE 3 gate star or 3gate xpand star, of course not one base), but this also seems not working anymore, since stargate builds became more common since season 1. And you often cannot hold the resulting push from the zerg, neither if you tech to colossi/mass army or take 3 thirds, thats the main problem with this sort of build. You simply cannot do enough damage with 5 phoenixes.
About 1 gate FE - i think it seems more viable now because zerg didn't explore all possible ways of early agression yet. By the way what if zerg does the roach+ling allin that was very popular like 3 months ago in GSL? I don't think you're able to save your nexus, while he has an expo and can start droning anytime.
As for the sair/reaver opening in BW - that's not what made FFE viable in my opinion (I don't know what did) because the strategy wasn't used all that much. Maybe 1 in 6-7 PvZ's.
I think the best way right now to play it is ffe into stargate . You make the stargate before you researching warpgate and you apply preasure while teching to collo and trying to get a third . In worst case you will do no dommage but force more queen and spine and in the best case you can get the third base . However , the really important think is to not loose his voidray even if you don't do any dommages because if you loose it , you can't make anymore preasure and the Z we'll feel way fore comfortable.
It's an interesting argument - Another thing to think about though - if your opponent knows you're 1gate expanding and makes 20+ speedlings and delays and delays your nexus, I feel like you can get in to a bit of trouble. Maybe I just haven't played enough around with it. Also I feel like there might be some early roach busts that sometimes you could scout with random probe scouting but sometimes you might not...
I guess I'm trying to say forge expand might be a bit of a safer 'standard' option? (map dependent i suppose!!)
I think FFE will go the way of the roach hydra corrupter unless toss' find a way to refine it some way. FFE into stargate seems like the most punishable build especially, because the zerg can just either do a 3 hatch 1 gas build or a no gas 3 hatch build (With an even earlier 3rd) and just saturate his bases with 70+ workers with little to no consequences. Your production is powerful enough, and the toss' tech is delayed just long enough to defend against all sorts of mass gate pushes including 7 gate +2 blink stalkers with an obs. The zerg just gets a third way too fast and can drone way too easily. If the toss gets an early third you can just roll it over with roaches and lings. I have a lot more trouble droning and expanding versus 1 gate expos. Don't most EU tosses prefer that anyway? I don't see Sase FFE very much, and in the assembly zvp relays I've been watching I've been seeing less and less FFEs as well, but that's hardly representative. I just feel that 1 gate expo (And 3 gate expo) keeps the zerg more honest with pressure or the threat of pressure.
It's my first week back on sc2 after a 8month break, but so far FFE into stargate harrass into quick 3rd\2colossi push is working wonders for me, I rarely lose pvz's at mid masters. Unfortunately, I see how zergs who rush for extremely quick 3rd would take less damage frome pressure if they play the openings without mistakes. Still, even if I can't do much damage with a void ray\3 phoenix, I can pretty much force extra queens, spores, and hydras that'll later meet my colossi timing off equal economy. If they don't get hydras, I get to delay 4th, and, more importantly, kill the creep tumors with my quick observers. There's still gas to kill occasionally, some ovies, then I finally can trade energy for drones, clean any overlords on the map, intercept drone transfers, kill lings near towers, patrol map with phoenixes, etc - all while taking a 3rd base off 2gate\robo\4gas, stopping the stargate production. Then game usually depends on my ability to benifitialy trade colossi-based army before infestor timings, and then transition into zealot/archon/stalker/HT(feedback mostly) + 4th base...if I have my push stopped by a zerg with infestors out and still superior eco, I usually screwed up somewhere. Banes in ovies are pretty annoying though, coupled with infestors, and some hydra drop timings can be devastating if I overproduce air and delay robo too long, although "meeting" drops with army and having spotted them with phoenix works out nicely. Overall I'm treating it like BW PvZ, being gay with air units and limiting their options, while catching up on expansions and delaying their own.
I haven't tried it off 1gate nexus yet, but I like the safety of FFE, and how on some maps I can get a nice early lead by pyloning their natural and delaying my canon forever, surviving due to wall\etc. One gate nexus pretty much still requires you to get a forge, even if zerg isn't making a dedicated attack, and the only tradeoff is faster warpgate(stargate timing, I think, would be similar, though it's cool if there are resources to safely get a void ray out earlier than 07:30 off 1gate nex). I guess I'll play out FFE for couple weeks and then try myself a 1gate nex approach.
Just for clarification purposes: one gate FE is safe vs early pressure shenanigans, on maps that allow for it. I didn't go into the map specifics, mainly because that wasn't the point I was trying to make (if one gate expo isn't feasible on a map, then the discussion is irrelevant anyways) but also because one gate FE hasn't been as explored as FFE.
For the sake of the argument let's assume for the subsequent discussion assume that we are on a map/position where we can both one gate FE and FFE and are skilled enough to execute it in a way that won't get us killed early
EDIT: at person above me: the funny thing is, zergs who delay their third are mostly much more vulnerable than zergs who take it immediately. in + Show Spoiler +
Ret vs nani blizz eu inv
the zerg took the third even as his natural, possibly to prevent getting pylon-blocked. By doing that you guarantee yourself a super-early queen and the ability to plant spores way in time before voidrays could be a problem.
This is the core point of my argument: that by going FFE zerg can get the third SO fast that the defense is already in place when your voidray comes flying. If you can harass the third then the zerg did something wrong. Furthermore, I've been quite unable to force hydras. Zergs just mass-roach against me and add infestors+corruptors.
Last month (month before that? I dunno) when the roach/ling aggression got really popular, many protoss players were having difficulty defending with a 3-gate expand, never mind a 1-gate expand. On maps where you can go for a full wall-off outside your nat, I could see a 1-gate expo working maybe, but it still seems very vulnerable to early aggression. Also, you have to decide if you're going to gate expo or FFE before you see if he's got gas (and could threaten with early speedlings or roaches). I feel like 1-gate expands will remain a corned-cutting 3-gate expand variation, used against players who have late gas or in cross positions.
What I like to do vs. Zerg off FFE is instead of 6 gating, do 4 gate + robo + council and get an observer, blink, and immortals to go with my stalkers. Don't make sentries. Use your observer to watch his third while boosting out +2 weapons. When it finishes, if he's saturated the third, go attack him. You should be up to about 130 food at this point with 4 immortals and the rest stalkers. If he has few drones there, go take a third and start going for colossi.
The idea is the Zerg does not have enough time/larva to both saturate the third and get enough gas to make a huge force of roaches plus infestors which are needed to stop this. Pure roach alone just straight up dies to blink stalkers and immortals, as does roach/ling as your +2 stalkers can kill zerglings in two hits instead of three. The tendency of your immortals to get stuck in the middle of your stalker ball actually helps you here. Your stalkers can take the initial volleys on their shields while the lings are killed, then blink back and let the immortals come to the front against the roaches. It also does pretty well against infestor/ling, again because of the +2 weapons. Just make sure to hug cliff edges as you move as much as possible to reduce the surface area lings have to attack you. He will have infestors out when you attack, but he won't have enough to just straight up fungal spam your entire stalker ball to death 100%-0%, and you have the advantage of immortals against which fungal does very little, and can instakill his infestors if he makes any kind of mistake and gets too close. Kill his ling swarm, then burn down his third's hatchery, kill the drones, and then run back to your base before he can produce another 4-6 infestors to come finish you off.
Of course, the build has weaknesses. Without sentries, if he goes for a baneling bust you're going to have a hard time, but I find that good simcity, making three cannons, and making sure no two cannons can be hit by banelings at the same time helps beat this. The other problem is if he goes for the oldschool muta/ling, you are just plain dead. Without sentries, you have absolutely no hope of surviving muta/ling.
On August 10 2011 20:03 Xequecal wrote: What I like to do vs. Zerg off FFE is instead of 6 gating, do 4 gate + robo + council and get an observer, blink, and immortals to go with my stalkers. Don't make sentries. Use your observer to watch his third while boosting out +2 weapons. When it finishes, if he's saturated the third, go attack him. You should be up to about 130 food at this point with 4 immortals and the rest stalkers. If he has few drones there, go take a third and start going for colossi.
The idea is the Zerg does not have enough time/larva to both saturate the third and get enough gas to make a huge force of roaches plus infestors which are needed to stop this. Pure roach alone just straight up dies to blink stalkers and immortals, as does roach/ling as your +2 stalkers can kill zerglings in two hits instead of three. The tendency of your immortals to get stuck in the middle of your stalker ball actually helps you here. Your stalkers can take the initial volleys on their shields while the lings are killed, then blink back and let the immortals come to the front against the roaches. It also does pretty well against infestor/ling, again because of the +2 weapons. Just make sure to hug cliff edges as you move as much as possible to reduce the surface area lings have to attack you. He will have infestors out when you attack, but he won't have enough to just straight up fungal spam your entire stalker ball to death 100%-0%, and you have the advantage of immortals against which fungal does very little, and can instakill his infestors if he makes any kind of mistake and gets too close. Kill his ling swarm, then burn down his third's hatchery, kill the drones, and then run back to your base before he can produce another 4-6 infestors to come finish you off.
Of course, the build has weaknesses. Without sentries, if he goes for a baneling bust you're going to have a hard time, but I find that good simcity, making three cannons, and making sure no two cannons can be hit by banelings at the same time helps beat this. The other problem is if he goes for the oldschool muta/ling, you are just plain dead. Without sentries, you have absolutely no hope of surviving muta/ling.
at what timeing does your attack comes? Can you show us some replay? This sounds interesting, but looks like mass 1-1 lings would demolish it
I agree that common FFE openings lack any pressure ability to scare enough a decent zerg.
As seen in many pro matches one stargate pressure with one or two void ray is too late to deny the third and is not even guaranteed to force hydras (I myself prefer to go mutas after a failed stargate pressure because you will likely caught them teching and without enough phoenixes to deal with 10+ mutas). On the other and any warpgate timing with or without blink should get overwhelmed if properly scouted (if the zerg knows when he has to stop droning).
2 stargate phoenixes after FFE (MC sometimes does it) looks more promising. If unscouted it's guaranteed damage because one spore is not enough dps to really hurt phoenixes, And then you are sure to retain map-control for a long time allowing some speedlots harass while you tech and take your third. Hydras push are not that strong to counter it (graviton really own that) and infesters with a fourth are probably the way to go. So in theory you should be able to tech and take a third to stay on even footing with the zerg if your multitasking is on par. Although this style is not popular enough to know how strong it can be.
So unless a new standard way to FFE emerge which put enough pressure I agree that 1 gate expo will be the future of PvZ. Because it's as greedy but much more flexible and opens up to a wider variety of timings that the zerg has to prepare for.
Yeah, I've seen it as well, pretty much instant 3rd, often even before gas; it reduces the damage from stargate openings quite a bit. Still, all that gives them is better protection of theirs bases. I still get to see everything, kill some drones, kill some overlords, make them multitask as well, and creep tumors(although it's easier for them to protect or remake those, they still die very fast to void ray). If I see them only making drones, I still can take a 3rd off 2gates with pretty much 6 gateways units and 3 phoenix/void ray, that sets me up for a fast death ball. Actually, against some zergs I found myself able to even poke them with my small unit count a little bit later after harass. I guess it's harder than usual but playable; if I find myself playing perfectly and still getting destroyed, I'll write about it here. Just cleaner aggression and faster expansion timings + non-stop harass seems to go long way. For me, question is - what gives 1gate expo it's advantage, specially if it gets scouted. I wouldn't want to turn the game into gamble with nexus cancel allins, and if I don't, they still can get a quick third fairly quickly, regardless of my harass. It depends on the timing of stargate units compared to their 3rd laid in response to the nexus, and worker count comparison before that. With FFE I know I'm ahead in workers up to the point where my harass starts, where they get ahead quick after handling it. What I dislike about 1gate nexus is that my 3rd timing would probably coincide with zerg infestor timings, while off FFE against fast 3hatch it's more of a 4th base matter.
On August 10 2011 20:45 Soulforged wrote: Actually, against some zergs I found myself able to even poke them with my small unit count a little bit later after harass.
This is/would be definitely the way to go. Nevertheless almost all protoss players seem to "wing" that currently, I haven't seen a even slightly underlying pattern...when to transition from stargate-harass into gateway-unit-poke. Mostly it seems like they kinda randomly spam some units and go for it, after they are done with phoenix-micro.
Just cleaner aggression and faster expansion timings + non-stop harass seems to go long way.
Completely agreed. This is basicly what I was asking for - how do you pressure competent zergs after FFE. Only stargate-harass into deathball-macro doesn't work vs good zergs. P players doing that get destroyed left and right. If you go stargate, then you have to have some "follow-up-pressure" in store. Nevertheless I have no clue how to structure such a build.
Also I didn't imply that I would plan on going nexus cancel every other game. It's the mere possibility that I "could" be doing it that should force zergs, in theory, into a more conservative playstyle when facing a one gate expo. Pretty much like the robo vs the threat of cloak in PvT.
Seems pretty clear that part of opening Stargate (off one OR two bases) has to be attacking with your ground units if the Zerg plays greedy. It's very expensive to defend three bases from Phoenix/Void/Zealot.
I mean, with practice and a refined build you can go for a pressure build, like stargate into blink stalker maybe warpprism, something gimmicky...the problem is, when the zerg keeps cool and masses an army you're dead. I think to make such an build work, you really need alot of refinement and experience, do you agree? I may also test 2 stargate phoenix into blink stalker nonstop harass the next games, but i think its going to be hard.
After the phoenixes, do you use teh stargates anymore? maybe alter adding some void rays to you're deathball if its going to mid/lategame? or just forget about them?
On August 10 2011 18:10 durr wrote: I have to say that recently i have had a lot of Z players 6-8 pool me on maps that FFE is common and so i just don't even try to go for it anymore because i hate losing to these gimmicky strats. As for your question i won't go into which is more economical but with 1-3gate xpand you can fake pressure and even apply some real pressure and make them not build drones which can make you closer in econ to the Z but maybe not really a better econ than FFE will give you but the Z wont be as far ahead b/c of roach/ling building and not drones.
Its just you lacking skill&knowledge how to counter 6-8pool with forge opening
If I get scouted doing a FFE, I'll probably transition to early stargate to punish the probable 3rd expansion. If I don't see a fast 3rd then I throw down some more gates and stop with any stargate aggression. If I do see a 3rd I'll probably continue with stargate aggression and maybe expand as well.
However, I feel that 1gate expo is probably more reliable, as every PvZ I've been in where I've FFE'd, the zerg takes a quick third and I find it very hard to come back from that. 1gate expo gives me the chance to have a fairly formidable army in time for any early pool aggression that I'm on the end of.
Im pretty sure 1gate expand is very hard to protect if zerg builds blindly speedlings. Metalopolis i think is the only map where ramp is so close to natural's nexus so you can build protecting wall fast with 2nd and 3rd gateways after nexus. On other maps you have to sit at your ramp and they will just force you to forcefield the ramp choke so you block yourself and cant defend nexus.
I tend to go 1 gate expo almost exclusively, assuming I see a late gas. Speedlings basically stop pressure simply with the threat of their existence, but until then, Zealots and Stalkers are way more than enough to make a Zerg feel uneasy.
For reference, I can usually force at least 10-12 Zerglings off of 1 Zealot and 2-3 Stalkers. Stalkers just outrun them and Zealots are naturally good against lings.
guys, if zerg don't feel pressure is free to take a 3rd at 4 minutes, build only drones from 3 bases, and just crush you with his 200/200 army at 13-14 minutes.
And, if you watch the game cited by sleepingdog, you will see that, at 10 minutes, zerg already have 50+ units more than a protoss that goes for FFE into 6-7 gates with blink.
so, any kind of pressure/attack/all in need to happen lot earlier.
everything else (turtling to colossi, taking a "fast" third, ecc...) can't really work at high lvl.
On August 10 2011 21:47 mazqo wrote: Im pretty sure 1gate expand is very hard to protect if zerg builds blindly speedlings. Metalopolis i think is the only map where ramp is so close to natural's nexus so you can build protecting wall fast with 2nd and 3rd gateways after nexus. On other maps you have to sit at your ramp and they will just force you to forcefield the ramp choke so you block yourself and cant defend nexus.
This I don't really understand....you can close the gap to your nexus on metalopolis, on antiga shipyard, on nezarim crypt, on abyssal caverns, on shattered temple...
I've seen pro-gamers one gate FE numerous times, for example HwangSin when laddering against korea's elite. If you do it right, it holds. Nevertheless I think it's crucial to not throw down the nexus OR the pylon down the ramp (!) too early. I usually go for something like ~5:10 nexus. The reason why I prefer one gate FE over 3 gate FE is actually not only the economical advantage, but that I can immediately wall off one entrance and have the expo protected against run-bys.
Nevertheless I didn't wanna discuss how to properly one gate FE and how to defend vs early mass speedling...
On August 10 2011 18:10 durr wrote: I have to say that recently i have had a lot of Z players 6-8 pool me on maps that FFE is common and so i just don't even try to go for it anymore because i hate losing to these gimmicky strats. As for your question i won't go into which is more economical but with 1-3gate xpand you can fake pressure and even apply some real pressure and make them not build drones which can make you closer in econ to the Z but maybe not really a better econ than FFE will give you but the Z wont be as far ahead b/c of roach/ling building and not drones.
if you save your first chrono til you scout you can generally get up a 13 forge... which beats the living hell out of most early pool strats...
One issue is how fast they get their get their natural. If you go 14 Forge, then you can cannon rush their Natural if they go Hatch first. When you go 1 Gateway, Nexus, then they can Hatch first fairly safely. For that reason the correct answer may not be to do one or the other always, but to mix it up.
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
It's similar to Brood War, but the exception being that Zerg et's larvae injects which allows them to really have an augmented production rate of drones.
There really is no similarity to Brood War as many key units are very different. I believe one of the reason that P v Z is lopsided is that there has been no revolutionary strategy. There needs to be some sort of strategy SIMILAR to the Forge FE but applicable to SC2.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Zerg will have an economic advantage the majority of the game if you Forge Fast Expand as you can't put pressure early enough to prevent him from spamming D.
Obviously if you play smart and don't suicide your army technically you're not behind, but there needs to be some sort of timing attack in terms of harassment or pressure because that economic advantage will lead to an intense growth of their army. This is obvious as they have larvae injection. I have no real opinion on any matchup and whether it is balanced or not as the metagame/strategies have not been developed enough.
On August 11 2011 01:21 kineSiS- wrote: Obviously if you play smart and don't suicide your army technically you're not behind, but there needs to be some sort of timing attack in terms of harassment or pressure because that economic advantage will lead to an intense growth of their army.
Wtf, did you not comprehend my post at all? All of my suggestions about transitions after FFE are about gateway timing attacks (at "non-traditional" timings - such as 8 min 6 gate +1 zeal), with the addition of the fact that these attacks don't have to be all-in and you can either expand behind them or back off and expand safely
On August 11 2011 01:21 kineSiS- wrote:.I have no real opinion on any matchup and whether it is balanced or not as the metagame/strategies have not been developed enough.
Ow, my brain hurts from reading this sentence.
1) Don't comment if you don't have an opinion. 2) No one is talking about balance here. Don't even mention it. 3) Learn what metagame means before using it.
I have pretty much the same problem than the OP with the FFE build. I'm using this build everytime I can, but Z players learned to deal with by taking their third really fast. Taking a fast third is hard too, because the opponent can just mass up Roaches / Flings and crush your little army ( Fast stargate into colossi / third let you with very few units for a long time... ) or delay your expansion. I feel like that putting pressure on zerg is crucial on the early stage of the game, just because forcing him to make a unit instead of a drone at the 5 mn Mark is way more efficient than doing it at 10mn.
I'm currently working on a FFE build into 6 gate with hallucinated zealot +1 (you get 2 of them per hallucination) which is going pretty well for the moment.
Actually, I'm asking myself if faking a entire army with hallucination between 5 - 10 mn mark (working on it :D) wouldn't be super effective to force units with 0 risk or send the fake at the natural and the real one at the third if scouted... (hallucination is underestimated IMHO, if anyone is interested, i can upload a replay!).
On August 10 2011 19:09 Lazzi wrote: I think the best way right now to play it is ffe into stargate . You make the stargate before you researching warpgate and you apply preasure while teching to collo and trying to get a third . In worst case you will do no dommage but force more queen and spine and in the best case you can get the third base . However , the really important think is to not loose his voidray even if you don't do any dommages because if you loose it , you can't make anymore preasure and the Z we'll feel way fore comfortable.
That's so dangerous. I used to do it, but it is soooo risky. Basically what you're doing is tech, then tech some more, than expand. If he gets some queens to defend, and just builds a massive army off of his economy, he will be able to kill you because you invested too much into tech and economy.
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Could you sometime write a guide outlining how to FFE? There's lots of scattered posts all around, none of which seem to agree on build order or how to react to scouting or what maps are better to nexus first or forge at whatever on. I can usually scrape by with a "forge fast expand", my problem is i feel SO clunky transitioning into whatever out of it. You'd be my favorite if you could throw some light on the topic :D
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Could you sometime write a guide outlining how to FFE? There's lots of scattered posts all around, none of which seem to agree on build order or how to react to scouting or what maps are better to nexus first or forge at whatever on. I can usually scrape by with a "forge fast expand", my problem is i feel SO clunky transitioning into whatever out of it. You'd be my favorite if you could throw some light on the topic :D
Second. I would love a GM player or Pro to lay out the specific timings of FFE into SG, DT and #gatepush. I understand these in concept, but in pratice, I'm terrible at them.
When i ffe, i find that it is hard to take a third less you have a good way to pressure the zerg to cover the expansion. Blink play can be good, but it can die really fast to roach/hydra spam off 2 base, so I guess scouting is also an issue.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds.
First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition
Joking aside:
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later.
I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Could you sometime write a guide outlining how to FFE? There's lots of scattered posts all around, none of which seem to agree on build order or how to react to scouting or what maps are better to nexus first or forge at whatever on. I can usually scrape by with a "forge fast expand", my problem is i feel SO clunky transitioning into whatever out of it. You'd be my favorite if you could throw some light on the topic :D
I find this discussion interesting because I feel the opposite. I feel like if I cant FFE on a map then I am at a huge disadvantage vs zerg. 3gate expand has been completely figured out by zergs. 1gate expand is very tricky to pull off and in my experience only possible when zerg has a late gas, otherwise zerg shows up with 12 lings and 4 roaches and all I have is 3 sentries and zealot. The winner of that battle is obvious.
edit: What I like to do after a FFE is build a stargate, and make just a single void. This will force defense from the zerg, because he must prepare for the void/phoenix harass that is never coming. Use the void to kill overlords, scouting lings, and to scout your opponents buildings. Follow this up with mass gateway units. Depending on the situation you can either attack or take a third and tech to colossus. If you take the third you should at least do some pressuring with your army so zerg cant macro up 80+ drones. I usually like to start making voids again at some point because your opponent wont make hydras when he realises you arent getting mass air.
I've never really liked FFE to be honest. The way I get by with FFE is by keeping the Zerg in the dark by using early Zealots to clear Xel'Nagas, and poke around looking for a Third, sometimes just attacking at odd times with 2 Zealots after clearing Towers. Basically I exploit weak players, though if I were to face a really good Zerg.. They wouldn't fall for it and simply build just enough to kill whatever I'm doing early game.
I've seen MC and some other Protoss do really well with 1 Gate FE into a fast third. Basically if you're good with your third timing, and cut an appropriate amount of gateway units I'm confident you can play without falling behind. See MC vs I think it was Sheth on Metal recently. MC cut a lot of Gateway units a lot of the time in reaction to Sheth's passivity.
I feel a FFE has to be a reactive opening. You can lay a blind forge down, but I think it's important to either cancel it, or not make any cannons the moment you know an early pool isn't being throw at you. I feel 1 Gate FE and 3 Gate FE both are fine openings, and I feel 3 Gate Expand is the opening zergs are currently most comfortable playing against. I don't think any of those openings is "out-dated" or just plain weak anymore. I do feel that certain ones are better on certain maps and in certain situations compared to the others.
With my freind i get him to 3gate pressure into expo into 6gate for a 3rd, 9gate to take a 4th. He upgrades of 1. And gets blink, charge and hallusinations. Basically. He plays reactiveley with the warpgates, but quite heave on static defences to deter herass/run buys. 1 cannön per mineraline then adding 2nd after taking nat at both bases, 3rd with 3rd base, 4 with 4 etc...
He builds alot i mean alot of sentries, and faints units, generally zeals an stalker. This simple combination, has had me waste larva and fungles. Ff are pureley defensive to prevent any busts.
Basically 3 gate sentry expand with cannons over units.
We are silver level player though, maybe a pro can tell me how to beat that.
On August 11 2011 03:50 TibblesEvilCat wrote: not from low player.
With my freind i get him to 3gate pressure into expo into 6gate for a 3rd, 9gate to take a 4th. He upgrades of 1. And gets blink, charge and hallusinations. Basically. He plays reactiveley with the warpgates, but quite heave on static defences to deter herass/run buys. 1 cannön per mineraline then adding 2nd after taking nat at both bases, 3rd with 3rd base, 4 with 4 etc...
He builds alot i mean alot of sentries, and faints units, generally zeals an stalker. This simple combination, has had me waste larva and fungles. Ff are pureley defensive to prevent any busts.
Basically 3 gate sentry expand with cannons over units.
We are silver level player though, maybe a pro can tell me how to beat that.
That'll unfortunately start losing around gold league because he'll simply fall behind in economy. He's taking a late 2nd base AND he's not using his most powerful units (sentries) to make an offense. If he's hitting with zealot stalker pokes late enough you can have fungals, just macroing a little better will crush it.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
What if you do this, and zerg opens a nydus near your third (but in your fog of war) and pumps some composition that includes a good number of hydras at your third? Is it possible for the zerg to do that? Can he have enough hydras to overcome your gateway-heavy army supported by cannons? If you scout the den and the nydus bulding in the zerg's base, how would you respond?
My fear is that by using the mobility of nydus to overcome defender's advantage and slow off-creep hydra speed, there is just no way to defend without colossus or templar...but if you wait until you have enough of those units to take a third, then you've delayed your economy so much that the zerg's economy is overwhelming (since he can choose whether or not to build the hydras based on whether or not he scouts the RF). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
What if you do this, and zerg opens a nydus near your third (but in your fog of war) and pumps some composition that includes a good number of hydras at your third? Is it possible for the zerg to do that? Can he have enough hydras to overcome your gateway-heavy army supported by cannons? If you scout the den and the nydus bulding in the zerg's base, how would you respond?
My fear is that by using the mobility of nydus to overcome defender's advantage and slow off-creep hydra speed, there is just no way to defend without colossus or templar...but if you wait until you have enough of those units to take a third, then you've delayed your economy so much that the zerg's economy is overwhelming (since he can choose whether or not to build the hydras based on whether or not he scouts the RF). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I don't see why a Nydus attack on your third is relevant to what anihc is talking about. That's not even a tactic commonly used. You should as a Protoss realize what they are doing and match their army value in order to take your third when you feel it's needed.
From what I've experienced/seen from pros is that to achieve this massive eco advantage the 3rd is laid down so early it can (and should) be scouted by your initial probe scout. If you open FFE I think cannon rushing can be effective here. At the very least it forces units and disrupts the zerg player.
Personally I've never been a fan of FFE even though I do use it on some maps. To me the strength of the FFE or 15 Nexus is not the strict eco advantage (which is debatable since if you don't FFE zerg won't take that super early 3rd), but the fact that you can make certain unit compositions on 2-bases (void ray/colossi) that is not possible with a normal 1 or 3-gate sentry expand since you can skimp on sentries.
Right now the mentality of protoss players is mostly geared around 2-base timing attacks, yet I remember in season 1 when FFE/15 Nex was able to keep up with the zerg worker count with chrono boosted probes. I don't believe it is a given that protoss cannot keep up economically with proper expo timings and pressuring to force units. For example would you really be behind if you 1-gate FE (so zerg doesn't take that super early 3rd), then take your 3rd immediately after warp-gate tech is done? You would take your 3rd behind a gateway army and feint some pressure to force units.
I also think it's a problem to automatically assume a zerg plays flawlessly and that certain strategies are outdated or completely figured out. Stargate openers out of FE is still viable and there are many variations as you can go 1 or 2 stargate, more void ray or phoenix heavy, fake a stargate and just 1 void ray, etc. 6-gates are still incredibly effective vs fast 3rds especially if you get a proxy pylon up.
On August 10 2011 18:22 Tryxtira wrote: From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
My own favorite way to do this is to go for Stargate play, force sporecrawlers and extra queens, possibly Hydras, and then simply 4-6 pheonixes to get map control and from here expand while the Zerg is defending up his 3 bases, I'm sure I've seen a few proreplays where this style is being used, I just can't find them at the moment.
If P goes for an ultra fast 3rd to counter Zerg's fast 3rd, Zerg responds with Muta, and neither Blink/Storm nor a sufficient number of Stalkers to cover 3 mineral lines are done in time to prevent massive damage. Does anyone disagree with this statement?
I think the biggest problem with PvZ at this moment is a timing window in the early game where protoss absolutely can't scout. Once speedlings pop, zerg has full map control and any zerg player who plays properly should spot a probe on the map and kill it pretty fast. This is true whether we're playing a gate expand strategy or a FFE.
We have to get hallucination/air/observer to know what's going on... And by that time, it's often too late: There's been enough time for the zerg to get a significant macro lead on the protoss, or an attack comes right as the scout pops out. The time to make a decision as to how we follow through after getting the natural happens before we can see anything the zerg does, so it's essentially a coin flip.
Is the 1 gate expand better than the FFE? Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I would say the 1 gate expand makes you able to pressure faster, but it also is more risky: You're defending with 3 units and relying on the zerg not to force a cancel on your nexus. If we start seeing more 1 gate expands, we're just going to see more early ling pokes.
I've been working on a zealot/cannon early game push to deny the natural, or at the very least a fast third, getting the nexus at a similar timing as if you went a ~30 food 1 gate FE.
Essentially, 14 gate/~16 forge, or similar depending on map (earlier gate for further spawn positions/scouting info), starting a wall at the natural. 1-2 partially walled cannons and a zealot does wonders against a hatch/pool, is hit or miss vs pool/hatch, terrible vs gas/pool or pool/gas. VS early pools, I don't know, theorycrafting tells me either easy win or crushing defeat
Very limited testing on ladder, just throwing it out there if someone else wants to test it further
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
What if you do this, and zerg opens a nydus near your third (but in your fog of war) and pumps some composition that includes a good number of hydras at your third? Is it possible for the zerg to do that? Can he have enough hydras to overcome your gateway-heavy army supported by cannons? If you scout the den and the nydus bulding in the zerg's base, how would you respond?
My fear is that by using the mobility of nydus to overcome defender's advantage and slow off-creep hydra speed, there is just no way to defend without colossus or templar...but if you wait until you have enough of those units to take a third, then you've delayed your economy so much that the zerg's economy is overwhelming (since he can choose whether or not to build the hydras based on whether or not he scouts the RF). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I don't see why a Nydus attack on your third is relevant to what anihc is talking about. That's not even a tactic commonly used. You should as a Protoss realize what they are doing and match their army value in order to take your third when you feel it's needed.
I'm trying to discuss the idea of building a big +1 zealot-heavy gateway army to psychologically pressure the zerg but actually employing it to secure a third base rather than using it press an attack.
So what if you do that and then the zerg responds by using nydus to put a bunch of hydras + meatshields in striking distance of your third? Hydras are the counter to lots of gateway units and the conventional wisdom is that you need colossus or templar to defend against them, which you won't have if you decided to go mass gateway and take a third. So how now brown cow? I'm hoping that since Anihc is "a big fan" of this strategy he's used it enough to know what the outcome of this situation is.
I mean maybe I'm missing some implicit assumption in what Anihc's talking about -- for example, "There's no way that the zerg will have a lair in the situation I'm describing, so you're talking nonsense."
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds.
First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later.
I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd.
The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now.
I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
On August 10 2011 18:19 Pharaun wrote: Hey Sleepingdog, greetings from germany. I have to state, iam a noob, if started with season3 after some month break of sc2.
My experience so far is, i get extremely crushed by zerg. Iam almost 100% doing a FFE. The Problems i encounter are, that Zerg almost always has a bigger (not mass but really bigger) army then me, at any given point. This seems to be due to the hard droning, fast third zerg. (i play even enemies so i guess their macro isnt twice as good as mine).
I was really thinking around what to do, because i dont like to follow builds or guides (just for an inspiration)
So i came up with different things:
Teching/passive playstile off of 2 or 3 bases makes no sense, zerg will overwhelm you. So I lately tried to go FFE 6 gate blink stalker pressure into third base the moment I attack. to be honest, i get crushed, like you stated above.
So i think what i will try next is, to go FFE 6gate blinkstalker +robo (try to kill/annoy the zerg as much as possible with blink+observer) and maybe a warpprism at the third/main at the same time. I guess this gameplan is some sort of risky, but i dont know. Zerg is just pumping hydras at minute 9+ and crushes my FFE. I cant get colossi fast enough, and even if i will get them, i dont have enouugh sentries/gateway units to support 1-2 colossi.
I have to say, the 1 Gate (possible 4gate/pressure) build, is not what i think is right. A good zerg will scout or prepare soemwhat for a push, but i think you will be behind anyways cause of later expo.
Atm i dont really have any idea how to beat zerg, really. What do you think about a FFE build liek stated above?
-6gate blink stalker +obs +warpprism harass after 15-20?! stalker stop mass production and concentrate on taking third+ colossi or other tech (this all while you are harassing the zerg)
I have to test it, but i don't really see another way at the moment. ( i dont like cheese/allin as a constant build on ladder)
this is 100% spot on what i feel about PvZ openings right now. No matter what, 3gate expo is bad now. 1gate expo is gimmicky. If it works its great, but usually zergs will make 15-20 speedlings fast to make you cancel 1 or 2 times, losing 200 mins and ur expo gets up way later. FFE is my favorite atm. Been using double stargate + 5gates off 2base to deal with hydra roach, and chargelot archon vs any heavy ling composition. I feel like transitioning from stargate all the way robo bay is way too cost inefficient to only deal with hydras. A large number of phoenix and a mid-sized gateway army deals with hydras perfectly around the 9-10 minute mark.
this matchup is retarded atm for most Protosses, but im theorycrafting alot. The double stargate opening that i am working with is very good for holding off midgame pushes, but it delays your 3rd for awhile and i always end up losing in the long run because my main dries out and Z keeps pressuring my 3rd while i try to get a heavy gateway army with HT. Im theorycrafting and thinking about getting a fleet beacon after my double stargate and pumping 2 carriers -> pressure + 3rd base. Sounds kinda weird off 2 base because carriers are so expensive, but think about it...you already have stargate so all you need is fleet beacon, where as teching to collo -> 200/100 + 200/200 + 300/200 + 200/200 for thermal lance. Its actually not that expensive when you consider that every toss has been teching to collossi. You should keep your phoenix alive to deal with the hydras and pick up any infestors, and your carriers can do massive dps with support of gateway army. Carriers also deal with corruptors in small numbers, so this tech switch forces many more corruptors than if you went collossi. Only thing to avoid is neurals...
PS. This is ALL theorycrafting, just thought of this transition yesterday, because my win rate in PvZ is like 20% atm in high masters lol. Just got me thinking that robo route didnt work, twilight/templar route was doing ok but still crumbled to the econ of the zrg...lets try the stargate tech route, something that has never been explored all too much yet!
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds.
First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition
Joking aside:
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later.
I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd.
The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now.
I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
Yeah i agree with this, its a viable follow up but as you said, infestors are way more common these days which would stop this. also, zergs alot of the time build up a timing attack once they see your stargate play to hit right before your collo comes, or when you only have one out. Ive attacked into this army a couple times, and it never turned out very well . I think itd work if u catch the zerg offguard and he just produced a drone cycle, but tbh this is all luck as it is highly unscoutable..like naniwa said, the matchup is very strange with its somewhat "lucky" timings.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds.
First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition
Joking aside:
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later.
I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd.
The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now.
I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
Ok. What are the general timings for a basic FFE into stargate? When do you take gasses, when do you put down the core, when does the stargate itself go down? When forge fast expanding, what maps should you not do it on? What is the basic FFE build order? Thanks!
I think you can FFE and while you take your third pressure with Blinkers + DTs a la huk, force your opponent to multi task, while being able to retreat back to your sentries if shit gets to heavy. You can take your third and then tech to ht from there pretty easy.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote: First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds.
First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition
Joking aside:
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later.
I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
I've pretty much stopped doing FFE > stargate > 6 gate as much so I don't have any recent reps. I know I have some though from older patches so I'll upload a few when I get home. Meanwhile you can find a vod of me using this 3 games in a row against Darkforce on IPL TV from IPL 2 qualifiers. Game 1 I lost due to really poor micro in the engagement (it was pretty embarrassing T_T), game 2 I did a slightly earlier timing and caught him overdroning, game 3 he got out a lot defense which I scouted so I just went back home and took my 3rd.
The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
The main weakness is that I don't get a robo, so burrow play would destroy it. Also it may not do very well against infestor play which is pretty common now.
I have thought about writing a PvZ guide, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen (this is going to sound a bit pompous but I'm just being honest) since I do play competitively and writing it and keeping it updated would take a LOT of time (time that I'd rather spend practicing), and I'd rather not lay down my entire game plan in great detail for opponents to read If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
Ok. What are the general timings for a basic FFE into stargate? When do you take gasses, when do you put down the core, when does the stargate itself go down? When forge fast expanding, what maps should you not do it on? What is the basic FFE build order? Thanks!
Essentially you want to get your core as soon as your gateway is done, and your stargate as soon as your core is done... etc. Your first 2 gas should be taken right after you get your gateway, and your 2 natural gases should be taken soon after without having to cut too many chronoboosted probes (if at all).
I FFE on every map there is, even searing crater. You should try judging for yourself which maps are better than others - maps where natural is more open and harder to defend are worse for FFE than maps with chokes to natural. Maps that are worse for FFE just mean that I have to spend more on cannons to defend. It's up to you though what you feel comfortable with.
I think this thread is mainly about how Nestea and Losira's 3 hatch one gas build revolutionized ZvP But i love it cause it's my go to build now. The only times I don't win are when I forget to scout or i forget to put my evo down at 6:50.
On August 11 2011 05:04 Anihc wrote: The basic idea is to do your standard FFE > stargate into 1 void 3/4 phoenix harass or just skip the void and go straight for phoenix, and then when you have about ~40 probes you cut probes temporarily to throw down 5 more gates. Make about 6-8 sentries first, and then the rest stalkers. Attack anywhere between 10-13 minutes depending on what your phoenix scout.
Mhmm....will give it a try, I guess.
To be honest, I'm less afraid of infestor timing attacks than I am of a 3 hatch mass-droning zerg who builds nothing but queens for defense. Recently I saw some protoss-players (especially huk) not go for colossi but for an archon-follow-up when facing infestor/ling. Even if the tech-path is delayed (TC/archives) you can warp in a whole round of HTs if you time it correctly, and archons sure are amazing vs infestor/ling.
It seems like PvZ is evolving quite heavily anyways at the moment
just pointing out that a ffe fast 6 gate timing comes roughly at the same time as a 2 gas 4 gate. aside from that zerg doesnt feel much pressure from a 1 gat eexpo either
What I have been doing a lot is doing a ffe into stargate. pretty standard and I pull the MC build a robo as soon as I make my first void. HOWEVER, I then transition into a double robo and pump out collosus. The biggest thing is that I HIDE the collosus. Then I move out with 6+ collosus. I have 2-3 reps of me doing this but I havwe no idea how to post them so if you want some replays of me doing this, tell me how to upload the replay and I will! :D btw I'm a mid-level diamond player :p
To be honest, I've found that going into late game in PvZ is suicide unless you can constantly engaged the Zerg, and even then that is tricky to say the least. I prefer a FFE on maps like Shakuras, but I feel too unsafe doing them on maps without easy to take naturals. I've found that after a FFE, 6 gate +1 armor is one of the most realiable ways to outright win the game, but I'm sure that will become countered more often. Other builds like 7 gate blink +2 weapons have also been pretty effective for me. Ive only had success with these builds after FFE.
For maps without an easy to take natural, I've found that 1 Gate expo is my best bet so far. Obviously you need to react to what the Zerg is doing, but I've found 3 gate expo is one of the worst things you can do economically to yourself. Either way, early roach pressure off two bases is extremely frustrating when uing these builds.
Some things I've been theory crafting on are getting a double forge after FFE, or an early robo build. Also, I've seen some FFE into stargate, then Chargelot Archon builds which might have some success.
In my opinion, taking your third is not a good idea until you've done some damage to the Zerg. Taking that early third is like saying to the Zerg, "Hey, lets see who can "macro" harder". Obviously, you won't win that battle.
PvZ used to involve the Protoss defending and trying to get a max army, but with Infestor, roach, ling combinations, I don't see how any "Protoss Death Ball" could hold its own, or even get to max. Not to mention, taking your third has become almost impossible, since lings will delaying it forever or just outright destroy it, and Infestors can use infested terran to easily take down a Nexus.
My thoughts, just try and end the game as soon as possible. PvZ is a flawed match-up.
This is something I've been having problems with.. Maybe it's because I'm behind too much from FFE/lack of pressure, but it seems like the deathball just isn't scary anymore and if it gets past 15 minutes you're looking at infestor/broodlord, AKA the 'zerg deathball'.
I'd also like to get your opinion on composition vs. infestor play:
Ling/infestor-- seems zealot/ht/archon is best here, everything is great against lings and you have feedback for the infestors.
Roach/infestor-- I've heard anihc say stalker/sentry/immo/ht, but this doesn't work for me; immos are usually in the back or at least not the front lines, and then after a fungal they just never join the fight. Blink is still helpful but gets shut down pretty hard. I think I need to use sentries more but it seems like if you get them fungaled they're 100% dead from chained fungal or even roaches, and cost sooo much to replace.
Is collo a viable option instead of HT? stalker/sentry/collo definitely beats roaches, and if you get blink infestors have a reallly hard time doing anything about it.
This is something I've been having problems with.. Maybe it's because I'm behind too much from FFE/lack of pressure, but it seems like the deathball just isn't scary anymore and if it gets past 15 minutes you're looking at infestor/broodlord, AKA the 'zerg deathball'.
I'd also like to get your opinion on composition vs. infestor play:
Ling/infestor-- seems zealot/ht/archon is best here, everything is great against lings and you have feedback for the infestors.
Roach/infestor-- I've heard anihc say stalker/sentry/immo/ht, but this doesn't work for me; immos are usually in the back or at least not the front lines, and then after a fungal they just never join the fight. Blink is still helpful but gets shut down pretty hard. I think I need to use sentries more but it seems like if you get them fungaled they're 100% dead from chained fungal or even roaches, and cost sooo much to replace.
Is collo a viable option instead of HT? stalker/sentry/collo definitely beats roaches, and if you get blink infestors have a reallly hard time doing anything about it.
Roach infestor will get destroyed agianst Immortal HT Stalker Sentry. This is the comp I use every time, and see everyone else use. You might just not have enough Immortals, or perhaps bad engagement micro. HT is ideal not so much for storm but FB, so given that I'd say Colo are just going to be NP targets, while HT FB into Archons being much more ideal.
This is something I've been having problems with.. Maybe it's because I'm behind too much from FFE/lack of pressure, but it seems like the deathball just isn't scary anymore and if it gets past 15 minutes you're looking at infestor/broodlord, AKA the 'zerg deathball'.
I'd also like to get your opinion on composition vs. infestor play:
Ling/infestor-- seems zealot/ht/archon is best here, everything is great against lings and you have feedback for the infestors.
Roach/infestor-- I've heard anihc say stalker/sentry/immo/ht, but this doesn't work for me; immos are usually in the back or at least not the front lines, and then after a fungal they just never join the fight. Blink is still helpful but gets shut down pretty hard. I think I need to use sentries more but it seems like if you get them fungaled they're 100% dead from chained fungal or even roaches, and cost sooo much to replace.
Is collo a viable option instead of HT? stalker/sentry/collo definitely beats roaches, and if you get blink infestors have a reallly hard time doing anything about it.
I dont think collo is cost efficient vs roaches, until u get 4-6. Usually you wont before they attack. Definitely immortal stalker HT, dont go storms, have HT just for feedback -> archons. get MULTIPLE robos (2 off 2 base, 3 off 3base) to get immortals, they take forever for produce. Immortals in high numbers RIP through roaches, get like 7 or 8 of them with stalker and a couple sentry for GS, keep ur HT for feedbacking infestors and keep obs over their army. Make sure to chrono boost out weapon upgrades. IMO people dont use enough immortals vs a large number of roaches. They arent THAT expensive: compare 2 stalkers to an immortal in terms of cost. In a straight up fight, 20 stalkers vs 20 roach, its very close, but with blink micro you can win it. 10 immortals vs 20 roach is a pretty convincing win. The only reason people get more stalkers is because they are easier to macro up, but i think getting more than 1 robo just to get immortals is something that is really cost efficient and not alot of people do it. ofc blink stalker are more mobile, can atk air and can harass as well, but in a straight up fight immortals are much more cost efficient.
Chargelot archon with +weapons destroys ling infestor. try to spread out ur chargelots just a bit so that u dont get like 20 fungaled at a time, and u can a-move through ling army easily. when they throw blings in there, then it doesnt work as well, but i usually try to hit a 10gate 2base timing with chargelot archon that hits before too many infestors or blings, around 10-11 min.
+2 Blink Stalker timing attack with 7/8 gateways while taking the third works incredibly well to my advantage sometimes, but other times, my opponent will have infestors out quick enough to fungal and kill my stalkers, which pretty much means delayed pressure coming from this sort of build comes out too late to apply sufficient damage. I'm not sure if there's any other options on a map like taldarim though, as if a zerg just goes hatch first, the best way to punish it is with a cannon rush/contain. It's really a weird situation, because 1gate expand WILL put you at an economic disadvantage vs hatch first.
I've seen some top protoss (TT1 for example) make FFE in maps like Tal'darim or Shakuras with 1 gas only into a very fast 5 gate with a later gas timing push to punish greedy zergs. You take their 3rd, and take yours, or you can beat it outright. I totally agree with the necesity of keep surprising the Z in the match up. In a straight game, the match up is broken, in late game the "death ball" is just a leyend, the z eco get fast out of control, and infestor-bling/roach make a cost efficient army. I guess that's why most pros keep playing mostly all-ins in the match up.
personally i never FFE unless i have to (TDA) as i feel letting the zerg drone 3 bases is suicidal. i also feel that a 1gate FE is too defensive as well, you really cant put any pressure on a Z when you 1gate FE. 3gate FE allows you to get units out fast, and pressure the Z (not necessarily attack him) and get a lot of sentry mana early, good for constant hallucination scouting, and while your economy is weaker, so is his. you can also deny a 3rd if he tries to take it without having an army.
I have been toying around with warp prisms vs zergs to certain extent, and I have to say it has given me some good results, I usually warp a bunch of zealots, let them kill drones + expo while pretending to engage the zerg. I can usually kill the hatchery.
But I am also having a lot of difficulties in ZvP right now...
I'm sorry if this isn't relevant enough or has already been discussed but one build that I feel has been very unexplored is the double stalker opening. With this opening you can expand off the 2 initial gates and follow up the two stalkers with a zealot and sentries (or just sentries). From there you can sim city the rest of gates/ forge and constant production off 2 gateways pre warp gate tech will leave you with sufficient forces to fend off early aggression as long as you do not over extend yourself with the 2 initial stalkers.
I understand that against a speedling opening you only have a small window to apply some pressure (retreat by about 5:02 when speed finishes) but in my experience (low masters) this is enough as their expo is delayed with that opening anyway and you are forcing speedlings from larvae instead of drones.
The 2 stalkers can serve a dual purpose as great early game scouts as well. I have found some success with stalker/sentry/ immortal armies with double forges while constantly applying light pressure in the early/midgame with your first 2 stalkers followed by four/five gate pressure off 2 base. Obviously in starcraft you have to respond to your enemies compositions so this doesn't always apply but only after I take a relatively quick third, behind the follow up pressure, I then choose my tech path which is usually a chargelot/ archon composition. After opening stalker/ sentry heavy this seems to throw people off.
Let me know what you guys think. If you don't want to commit on my general mid/late game plan that's fine, but I mostly want to hear what people think about the double stalker opening as fast expand option.
Here is my Terran view point, regarding engagement position and composition.
I mostly go marine/Thor in my TvZ against +1 roach/ling Comp and win by virtue of positioning. If roach/ling was coming from 6 and 8 position, and my Thor/marine into 12 o'clock, I split the marines diagonally to flank the roaches while forcing the lings to wrap round the thors and split up; similar effect of forcefields As well as bringing the marine ball into firing range of both targets. I rarely have to stim.
The real threat in roach/ling are the lings, Their vast numbers splitting up the effective fire power of your units while the zerg is free to micro the roaches.
As posted earlier, IMHO stalker/immortal has potential when blinked to the wing(side) of the immortals, letting them get into range unhindered while the stalkers deal with the lings.
Caveat: this assumes near equal min/gas value for both armies.
-When protoss first started using FFE, zerg units were less cost effective, and their compositions were much, much less cost effective. Even economics were more fruitful. -Protoss transitions out of FFE were less discovered. Players would get caught with their pants down routinely due to lack of scouting for proper meta gaming. Now it's almost a science.
With that said
-Protoss economy doesn't scale as fast as a zerg's (both cutting corners), unless his third can be taken as quickly as a zerg's (how often do you see this happen?). The reason for this is a lack of mobility from the protoss army, and no stand alone heroes (like the speedling or speed roach). There is basically no reason a zerg shouldn't constantly have speedlings out on the map, but any time protoss takes anything less than their whole army out... their units are on a suicide mission as they can't retreat, and risk going all in every time they move their army out on the map, because again some zerg units (speedling/infestor) are VERY unforgiving with superior mobility/utility.
In other words, every pvz should be a guessing game for the zerg "can I make more drones? Can I make more drones?". The protoss should fake attacks, do good aggression as cost effectively as possible, and try to get good trades until infestors pop, then you're basically stuck going with huge head to head battles. But what ends up happening when you forge fast expand, a zerg gets a quick third and drones up to 60 drones on 3 base 6 gas optimal saturation (to your 40/50 max saturation on 2 base 4 gas), and still be able to flip the switch, judging from as little as a few zergling pokes and sacrificial overlord scout...to macro up a bigger army than a 2 base protoss. Obviously this is bad.
What is it going to take to change this? Zergs are making 4 zerglings to open on just about every map. This is no different from the more macro obvious maps where FFE is often used, enough to take towers, look for hidden probe and watch the toss natural. I might want to keep this in mind (that at most 4 lings will be coming 9 times out of 10) and just 1 gate cyber wall off and decide where to go from there.
I can do multiple builds from that staging point, clear out the zergling(s) watching my base, or even the towers if they skipped speed, and it's a different game from there. Am I going to 5 gate sentry zlot all in? Am I going to go stargate expand, dt expand, 1 gate expand 6 gate, 4 gate zealot stalker, etc, whereas if I open forge not only am I behind economically, eventually, one build shuts down every single protoss transition out of FFE (3 spores if twilight/stargate) and make speedling roach (with optional queens for stargate or spines for 6/7 gate//+2blink stalkers)
The zergs are getting massively ahead because there is no possible way to pressure a pool first zerg with a forge first protoss.
I can almost understand a nexus-> forge expand, but not a forge first. It'd be ideal if I could always open with a gateway whether or not I'm fast expanding.
Maybe the meta game has reached a point, in masters+ where players aren't always going all in before 10 minutes, where I can safely create builds to open up gateway instead of forge.
I'm not a protoss player. But is it possible to do a 5-6 zealot attack before the 8 minute mark?
The build I do vs a FFE is that I have an inject popping at 7:30~7:50 that I use for drones, after that I build some lings until my roach warren is up (8:10, as I build my roach warren at 7:00). I think most zergs does something similar.
An attack just before the 8 minute mark would be extremely devastating, as most zergs have just used all their spawned larvae on drones and they don't have the roach warren up. Some might not even have ling speed by then.
I'm thinking something like a 1 gas 6 warpgate zealot attack on the third.
On August 11 2011 16:55 VoirDire wrote: I'm not a protoss player. But is it possible to do a 5-6 zealot attack before the 8 minute mark?
The build I do vs a FFE is that I have an inject popping at 7:30~7:50 that I use for drones, after that I build some lings until my roach warren is up (8:10, as I build my roach warren at 7:00). I think most zergs does something similar.
An attack just before the 8 minute mark would be extremely devastating, as most zergs have just used all their spawned larvae on drones and they don't have the roach warren up. Some might not even have ling speed by then.
I'm thinking something like a 1 gas 6 warpgate zealot attack on the third.
Well for starters this will not go unnoticed by a zerg scouting remotely properly. In the time it takes slow zealots to cross a map a production cycle will easily hop in and instead of another drone pump, speedlings can crush those zealots if you can surround them/are not out upgraded.
Then basically the situation has reset. The zerg knows the protoss just lost all his units and goes back to droning while regathering map control/vision.
Something I've seen done is the protoss will acknowledge the zerg will get only 4 lings and boost out a few zealots asap to pressure the natural... but zealots by themselves are only so good vs zerglings so long as they don't get the perfect positioning. This will slow down the zerg by forcing more units, but slow down the power of the protoss as well :X, fewer gateways sooner.
On August 11 2011 16:55 VoirDire wrote: I'm not a protoss player. But is it possible to do a 5-6 zealot attack before the 8 minute mark?
The build I do vs a FFE is that I have an inject popping at 7:30~7:50 that I use for drones, after that I build some lings until my roach warren is up (8:10, as I build my roach warren at 7:00). I think most zergs does something similar.
An attack just before the 8 minute mark would be extremely devastating, as most zergs have just used all their spawned larvae on drones and they don't have the roach warren up. Some might not even have ling speed by then.
I'm thinking something like a 1 gas 6 warpgate zealot attack on the third.
Well for starters this will not go unnoticed by a zerg scouting remotely properly. In the time it takes slow zealots to cross a map a production cycle will easily hop in and instead of another drone pump, speedlings can crush those zealots if you can surround them/are not out upgraded.
Then basically the situation has reset. The zerg knows the protoss just lost all his units and goes back to droning while regathering map control/vision.
Something I've seen done is the protoss will acknowledge the zerg will get only 4 lings and boost out a few zealots asap to pressure the natural... but zealots by themselves are only so good vs zerglings so long as they don't get the perfect positioning. This will slow down the zerg by forcing more units, but slow down the power of the protoss as well :X, fewer gateways sooner.
A production cycle takes 40 seconds. It takes a zealot less than that to get to a third base. Especially from a hidden pylon. If you can attack the 3rd with 6+1 zealot, I don't think most zergs will be able to defend that with reactionary lings.
But I wonder if it's even possible to get wg+6 gates at 7:30 min.
A production cycle takes 40 seconds. It takes a zealot less than that to get to a third base. Especially from a hidden pylon. If you can attack the 3rd with 6+1 zealot, I don't think most zergs will be able to defend that with reactionary lings.
But I wonder if it's even possible to get wg+6 gates at 7:30 min.
I think the bigger question here is, if this is possible, does it slow down zerg enough to allow protoss to keep up? Obviously the timing will be figured out, will 1 round of roaches be enough to hold? to keep protoss even?
Without being too particular, I think what you are looking for in terms of fleshing out an advantage from a FFE is a purpose to it.
Vaguely, we can say that you need an extra expansion to even compete in the mid-game. What about that expansions do you need? Is it the gas? Probe production? Chronoboost? Maybe you just want to get your expo up before he can pressure (similar mentality to the Z's fast 3rd).
I think that Protoss needs to start studying the (standard) Zerg (response to FFE) builds more and identifying key times of vulnerability, and weighing the gains of the FFE towards those weak spots. Conversely we can ask what would the benefits of a 1gate-FE be, when considering the standard Z response to that build.
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
if after 1 year of play we are still discussing of 1-2 bases blind all-in (emphasis on blind) there's something wrong with the game design.
btw yes, what protosses need to do to stop zerg marco is to make a ball of units before 10 minutes and move to zerg natural, if P go to third there's a risk of a base trade (imho)
is it possible that everyone here isn't fully utilizing the power of an ffe? a 1 gate expo has the ability to harrass, but so does an ffe, until the stargate or 7 gate comes out you still have cannons. I know what frustrates zergs the most is when i delay my nexus toss down 3 pylons, 2 cannons at his front door and force him to cancel or lose his natural expo. Is it cheap, maybe, cheesy, zeg says it is, is it a cannon rush, no. I understand that some players may be against this idea, but it takes advantage of your forge and allows you to make sentries because of the ammass of gas that you get from building all mineral buildings. if the zerg drone patrols, feel free the harrass by putting down pylons near his base and tossing a cannon down, it will make his life hard and its not a cannon rush, just harrass its not all in and i see pro gamers do it all the time. I forget the match, but i believe white-ra did something similar to idra and just stomped him.
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
I agree - just to be clear, I'm completely aware of the cheesy nature of this push I mentioned above.
Nevertheless, when we think back...why have zergs learned that it's not cool to 15 hatch vs us? Because we cannon contain them and/or abuse the 1 base vs 1 base. Also zergs are much more careful in making sure there isn't any 4 gate coming. We were flamed, but it was for the better in the long run.
I have a hunch that something similar has to happen regarding the ludicrously fast third with mass-drones...that's just not right. Zergs end up with an economic lead (and not a small one) each and every game I watch. Yes, toss can catch up, but I don't think it has to be that way. If enough toss players come up with unscoutable fast pushes off a FFE, then maybe zergs will stop doing that. Yes, zerg needs a third when toss has a 2nd, but what we are observing now is insane macro-dominance on a regular basis.
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
Been working on your 6 gate +1 and it does work fairly well. However if the zerg is active with his lings, he finds your proxy pylon. In that case I make the 6 zealot anyways just to show them, and walk them halfway accross the map. It still forces a lot of units from zerg. I've been following that up with a cheesy double robo 4 colo timing push with decent success. What do you think is the best transition out of your scouted 6 gate zealot push?
Huh, the idea of FFE is to tech hard. I know BW and SC2 is nothing alike, but in BW you get SG, Cidatel, and +1 all in one swoop with the extra gas. And then speed, +2, HTs and storm. Thats how it should go in SC2 too I believe
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
I agree - just to be clear, I'm completely aware of the cheesy nature of this push I mentioned above.
Nevertheless, when we think back...why have zergs learned that it's not cool to 15 hatch vs us? Because we cannon contain them and/or abuse the 1 base vs 1 base. Also zergs are much more careful in making sure there isn't any 4 gate coming. We were flamed, but it was for the better in the long run.
I have a hunch that something similar has to happen regarding the ludicrously fast third with mass-drones...that's just not right. Zergs end up with an economic lead (and not a small one) each and every game I watch. Yes, toss can catch up, but I don't think it has to be that way. If enough toss players come up with unscoutable fast pushes off a FFE, then maybe zergs will stop doing that. Yes, zerg needs a third when toss has a 2nd, but what we are observing now is insane macro-dominance on a regular basis.
Yes, I think the key thing you mention is "unscoutable fast pushes." I'm focusing a lot more lately on scouting denial (trying to hide buildings, as well as chronoing out a stalker to kill ovie sacs asap) as well as deception - (for example, getting all 4 gases really early even when going for a 6 gate +1 zeal rush). Zerg needs different responses against early warpgate rushes and stargate, and we can use that to our advantage - I've seen someone (mana I think?) open up standard FFE > stargate but also get a quick 4 warpgates, harass with a void ray and then warp in 2 fast rounds of zealots and stream in 8 zealots to easily take out the third which was defended by 2 queens and 2 spores. I'm sure the reverse can be exploited as well - don't take natural gases that fast and go for a standard warpgate rush, but hide a stargate and surprise his 3rd with void rays after he holds off your zealots with roaches.
I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote: Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
Been working on your 6 gate +1 and it does work fairly well. However if the zerg is active with his lings, he finds your proxy pylon. In that case I make the 6 zealot anyways just to show them, and walk them halfway accross the map. It still forces a lot of units from zerg. I've been following that up with a cheesy double robo 4 colo timing push with decent success. What do you think is the best transition out of your scouted 6 gate zealot push?
Depends on when my 6 gate zealot is scouted. If he sees only 2 gas and 5 warpgates warping in with an ovie, I kill the ovie, then cancel 1 or 2 gates and get a twilight and/or robo and switch to something more standard. I know I've already forced a response from the zerg and he won't be greedily droning. If he doesn't scout my warpgates but does find the proxy pylon, yes I do what you say and warp in those 6 zealots at home and move them onto the map to force a reaction as well. Then usually I try to get a quick 3rd and start making normal sentry/stalker to defend it.
Your idea of a double robo colo attack off 2 base sounds good though, corruptors are decreasing in popularity in favor of infestors and I don't understand why everyone thinks infestors counter colossus, because they really don't unless you only have 1 or 2. I still make colossus all the time (after a brief stint trying to go stalker/ht/sentry/immortal every game, but having mixed results) and they work fine for me against infestor play.
On August 12 2011 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote: I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
Hmm, my 6 gate off a FFE can come as early as 8 minutes, and the only way for a zerg to defend a 3rd against it is to make roaches...
As Z I also relish the chance to play against FFE. It's almost always followed by some random 2 base timing that's easy to hold w/ a wave of roaches and just pumping +1 lings.
I have had trouble however, against people who posture with their army- poking at my creep and such, and expanding without really ever committing to an attack. As soon as you have a decent sized army just skip a round of warp-ins and cannon up an expo. From there it becomes a much more interesting game.
On August 12 2011 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote: I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
Hmm, my 6 gate off a FFE can come as early as 8 minutes, and the only way for a zerg to defend a 3rd against it is to make roaches...
Does a 6gate w/o blink work well against roach openers? As in if they open roach you take a 3rd or tech? I'm familiar with a 5gate off of a 3g expo that hits at about that time and am not sure what the advantages of FFE'ing are in that case.
I do not understand why people one gate expands. Protosses have done it against me and I make eight larvae worth of lings and I cancel it. I make some more and completely deny their expansions and gateways as sim city. Which forces them to either go 4gate from their man or build the extra gateways in their base and wait to expand.
On August 12 2011 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote: I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
Hmm, my 6 gate off a FFE can come as early as 8 minutes, and the only way for a zerg to defend a 3rd against it is to make roaches...
Does a 6gate w/o blink work well against roach openers? As in if they open roach you take a 3rd or tech? I'm familiar with a 5gate off of a 3g expo that hits at about that time and am not sure what the advantages of FFE'ing are in that case.
Yes, if they have roaches you just don't commit to the attack and run, and then either tech or get your own 3rd. Roaches won't have speed at that time so they can't chase you (lings can chase but zealots>lings). The advantage of FFE is just that you have a much much better economy than 3g expo.
On August 12 2011 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote: I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
Hmm, my 6 gate off a FFE can come as early as 8 minutes, and the only way for a zerg to defend a 3rd against it is to make roaches...
Does a 6gate w/o blink work well against roach openers? As in if they open roach you take a 3rd or tech? I'm familiar with a 5gate off of a 3g expo that hits at about that time and am not sure what the advantages of FFE'ing are in that case.
Yes, if they have roaches you just don't commit to the attack and run, and then either tech or get your own 3rd. Roaches won't have speed at that time so they can't chase you (lings can chase but zealots>lings). The advantage of FFE is just that you have a much much better economy than 3g expo.
Yeah I was just going to mention that most zergs won't have roach speed by the time your 6-gate hits. The more and more I play against this style the more I'm leaning away from Stargate play (I think it is still viable on maps where it is easy to abuse air play however) and toward a heavier gateway style. Because of the lack of roach speed zealots can retreat with little penality and your +1 zealot will tear through lings (which will be 0/0 because of the late evo chamber).
Not only that but this initial push either wins you the game outright or forces roaches, which then allows you to safely secure your own 3rd w/o the threat of something like mass mutas. Then you grab blink and go mass blink stalkers to hold your 3rd from aggression and go from there (likely HT to counter his infestor play).
But it still goes back to the OP that even if you want to 6-gate, what is the better opening? I prefer 1-gate FE since you get warp-gate tech done faster and zergs won't respond with their own 3rd base until they confirm you have expo'ed yourself, which means the window between them being on 3 bases compared to you on 2 before your push hits is smaller. But it does go back to how unsafe a 1-gate expo feels at times, though if you do manage to hold zerg aggression it does put you quite on good footing considering you forced a lot of units from zerg.
Another thing I have been experimenting with with pretty good success is the same old school 3-gate sentry expand but instead of a 3rd gate I toss down a forge and get a fast +1. Most zergs nowadays seem to respond to what appears to be a 3-gate expo with 2-base infestor/ling which you will obliterate with +1 zealots/sentry.
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd.
Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch.
Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right.
That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?".
If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind.
If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots.
Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway.
I think its a knowledge thing for the most part.
Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros.
Not only that but this initial push either wins you the game outright or forces roaches, which then allows you to safely secure your own 3rd w/o the threat of something like mass mutas.
Actually muta is still a threat, and coincidentally this is what I have the most trouble dealing with. I've lost multiple times to catz, ostojiy, and slush recently because they go 3rd base > roach > muta, and even though I have blink ready or almost ready when they come with mutas, I have a 3rd base and it's much more difficult to defend 3 bases versus only 2 especially on some maps. Mutas just keep me in my base and it's difficult for me to either move out and attack or secure a 4th and 5th.
On August 12 2011 02:46 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been saying this for months.
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd.
Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch.
Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right.
That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?".
If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind.
If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots.
Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway.
I think its a knowledge thing for the most part.
Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros.
Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE.
On August 12 2011 02:46 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been saying this for months.
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd.
Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch.
Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right.
That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?".
If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind.
If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots.
Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway.
I think its a knowledge thing for the most part.
Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros.
Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE.
In my experience at 400 Master, "slightly behind" would then equate to me having a drone lead.
The best possible response is for Protoss to have vision of the Drone the entire time and use 2 Zealots (and maybe a few probes) deal with the Hatchery in a timely manner.
This leaves me in the position where I have to cancel the hatchery, as allowing it to finish building would be a complete waste.
In this position, which is the worst I can think of, I am still typically about 2 drones up by the time I cancel the hatch.
On August 12 2011 02:46 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been saying this for months.
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd.
Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch.
Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right.
That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?".
If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind.
If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots.
Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway.
I think its a knowledge thing for the most part.
Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros.
Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE.
In my experience at 400 Master, "slightly behind" would then equate to me having a drone lead.
The best possible response is for Protoss to have vision of the Drone the entire time and use 2 Zealots (and maybe a few probes) deal with the Hatchery in a timely manner.
This leaves me in the position where I have to cancel the hatchery, as allowing it to finish building would be a complete waste.
In this position, which is the worst I can think of, I am still typically about 2 drones up by the time I cancel the hatch.
I don't see how you are "2 drones up" compared to had you not proxy hatched at all? How can you be more ahead by starting and canceling a hatchery? The protoss doesn't need to pull any probes to deal with the proxy hatch. There's already a thread that discusses proxy hatch vs FFE in greater detail, search it up for the correct protoss response. There are many disadvantages of FFEing but the threat of proxy hatch is not one of them, at least at high levels of play. Sorry.
On August 12 2011 02:46 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been saying this for months.
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd.
Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch.
Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right.
That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?".
If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind.
If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots.
Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway.
I think its a knowledge thing for the most part.
Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros.
Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE.
So what is the perfect response ? Say I went nexus first and scout the hatch almost as soon as it goes down. Chrono 2 or 3 zealots ? Get a cannon in range ?
Edit: oops I must have missed that thread. I'll go check it out.
Not only that but this initial push either wins you the game outright or forces roaches, which then allows you to safely secure your own 3rd w/o the threat of something like mass mutas.
Actually muta is still a threat, and coincidentally this is what I have the most trouble dealing with. I've lost multiple times to catz, ostojiy, and slush recently because they go 3rd base > roach > muta, and even though I have blink ready or almost ready when they come with mutas, I have a 3rd base and it's much more difficult to defend 3 bases versus only 2 especially on some maps. Mutas just keep me in my base and it's difficult for me to either move out and attack or secure a 4th and 5th.
I'm curious did you happen to save any of these replays? Was there anytime during this tech switch he seemed weak enough to push? The answer may lie in just keeping pressure on the zerg to force more units.
Also by that point in the game you should have observers or hallucination to scout this. Did you just get caught by surprise and just couldn't defend it nor find a window for you to push?
On August 12 2011 02:46 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been saying this for months.
As more and more Protoss continue pushing harder with FFE over the past month, I just keep getting further and further ahead in the mid game. And I don't even take a fast 3rd.
Instead, I opt to proxy-hatch. Even if you know it's coming, you are forced to spend resources dealing with the hatch. Those are precious resources that you're not spending on probes and tech, which THEN makes me feel better about taking a 3rd, which I typically follow up with making an unfair amount of Mutas because you haven't even left your base yet. You've been too busy dealing with my hatch.
Even if my proxy hatch kills nothing, 90% of the time it puts me so far ahead that the game is already over. Not to mention the times when P doesn't scout it I tend to just win out-right.
That being said, I think the determining factor between the two builds should be scouting information. Namely, "Did Zerg get gas or not?".
If Zerg got early gas (around the 14 supply mark), I think FFE is better. It will allow you to maximize your mineral income while making speedlings worthless, and I think a 6 gate +1 blink stalker push while taking your 3rd is a very solid follow-up to that. The important part with the blink stalkers is to do damage to Zerg, not necessarily win outright. Keep that in mind.
If Zerg didn't take gas (maybe he gets it around the 18 mark), 1 gate expo is going to be a much better choice. Slowlings can't really do much to stop the nexus from going up so long as there is a zealot or two around. Early Zealots will allow you to easily deal with any proxy shenanigans going on. And as mentioned above, you can Chrono out 3 Zealots and just 1-a them on your opponents base. When Zerg is trying to get ahead of your soon-to-be 2-base income, the last thing in the world he wants to do is spend 6 larva making lings to fight off your Zealots.
Obviously, you will only get scouting info in time to know what to put down on smaller maps. On maps like Tal'Darim, I would just default to 1-gate expo in front of your natural, there shouldn't be much that Zerg can do about that anyway.
I think its a knowledge thing for the most part.
Meaning most Zergs don't know how to properly punish a FFE and most Protoss don't know how to properly punish a quick 3rd by Zerg. This includes pros.
Yes proxy hatch will win you the game if unscouted, but a protoss who reacts perfectly (and by react perfectly I just mean know what to to do defend it, not "pull off some amazing micro") will just result in the zerg being slightly behind. So yes it can be worth the risk especially at lower levels but it's not a reliable standard response to FFE.
So what is the perfect response ? Say I went nexus first and scout the hatch almost as soon as it goes down. Chrono 2 or 3 zealots ? Get a cannon in range ?
Edit: oops I must have missed that thread. I'll go check it out.
tl;dr: make 2 cannons right next to the hatch, timed so that they finish after the hatch finishes. If zerg cancels, you cancel as well (although both players net loss 75 minerals, zerg is slightly behind since they had to invest in the 300 minerals before the protoss did). If zerg allows hatch to finish and makes roaches, pull some probes + zealot to block roaches from running out of range of cannons (zerg is much more behind because of investment in early roach warren + roaches, protoss only loses like 2 probes + some mining time)
Not only that but this initial push either wins you the game outright or forces roaches, which then allows you to safely secure your own 3rd w/o the threat of something like mass mutas.
Actually muta is still a threat, and coincidentally this is what I have the most trouble dealing with. I've lost multiple times to catz, ostojiy, and slush recently because they go 3rd base > roach > muta, and even though I have blink ready or almost ready when they come with mutas, I have a 3rd base and it's much more difficult to defend 3 bases versus only 2 especially on some maps. Mutas just keep me in my base and it's difficult for me to either move out and attack or secure a 4th and 5th.
I'm curious did you happen to save any of these replays? Was there anytime during this tech switch he seemed weak enough to push? The answer may lie in just keeping pressure on the zerg to force more units.
Also by that point in the game you should have observers or hallucination to scout this. Did you just get caught by surprise and just couldn't defend it nor find a window for you to push?
Sorry, I didn't save the replays. You might be able to find my games vs CatZ from CSN after the clash 2 VODs, I'm sure he did it in at least 1 of the games.
Yes there is a timing where he would be weak, but unfortunately my style of play involves getting a rather early 3rd (which I get before I can scout mutas), so I get kind of countered by it. If I transition into just standard 2 base blink I would probably fare much better against roach into muta.
The mutas don't really catch me off guard and in some cases they do absolutely zero damage as I have blink stalkers ready to defend, but like I said it keeps me in my base and I can't move out or take my 4th/5th as easily as I normally can so I lose later on.
On August 12 2011 02:05 Anihc wrote: Zerg needs different responses against early warpgate rushes and stargate, and we can use that to our advantage - I've seen someone (mana I think?) open up standard FFE > stargate but also get a quick 4 warpgates, harass with a void ray and then warp in 2 fast rounds of zealots and stream in 8 zealots to easily take out the third which was defended by 2 queens and 2 spores. I'm sure the reverse can be exploited as well - don't take natural gases that fast and go for a standard warpgate rush, but hide a stargate and surprise his 3rd with void rays after he holds off your zealots with roaches.
A similar (ab-)use of the metagame can be seen here by HuK vs Darkforce, I'm sure you know the game:
He opens stargate single voidray, but even stops producing phoenixes after I think 1-2 and overwhelms darkforce with a very early zealot/sentry attack. I definitely agree that FFE really needs those kinds of pokes. If zerg has defenses you can go back, macro up and be fine. In the game HuK even gets the third nexus behind the attack. I guess getting TC for blink and robo at the same time should be no problem at this point.
I think the stargate is useful when doing that, especially if the zerg scouts it, since it most likely will get him in the "produce queens, spores and drones" mindset. If the zerg doesn't spot a stargate he could probably play it more safe...though that didn't happen in Ret vs Nani on shakuras (I guess spoilers are not really needed anymore, no?)
Yeah I don't think the problem is proxy hatcheries, but I do see where he's coming from. While because its unusual players may react incorrectly(thus giving you a lead), overall its just not a good strategy to do in the long term(like doing 1-1-1 or w/e new allin.). Forge FE I feel forge FE is better its just tosses don't know how to follow it up. Sure you can go for a cheesy 2 base allin but I feel like Protoss just have to be more willing to put static defense to protect a third. Its unbelievable how effective cannons are, not just at defending an incoming army, but also effectively negating small-medium ling runby's/counterattacks as well as providing detection. A valid argument is that zerg will react to your super macro-focused build and just get 5 bases. But as we've already seen from Lalush's thread, having additional bases beyond 3 is not that much of an advantage.
I don't feel like allins are neccesary, or that you can't match a greedy build with your own greedy build. Tosses may have to forgo chronoing probes in order to get a faster third. They may have to play more patiently and rely on just solid mechanics rather than blind all-or-nothing. You may have to forgo sentries so you can get the archons faster or get that +1 in time.
The hardest opponets I play are the ones who don't allin. They're the ones who don't try to hit a predetermined timing, but rather attack based on the game itself. The ones who I can't just deny a third because he has a solid defense. And then, rather than try to just go dts or void rays, just hits a sick timing. I mean seriously, toss compositions are the best in the game.
On a side note, I feel protoss are pressuring wrong as well. They're trying these mass stalker blink builds but when zerg has good creep spread and goes mass zergling then they win. They try to do void rays but get thwarted by a spore and a queen. The game has evolved beyond pure 6 gate and dt rush. You have to build based on what you see. And play passive until then, but remember that if you CAN keep a third and you CAN get past the "pure roach 200 army", then you will be ahead/dictating the game.
One gate FE I also like this build alot as well. It forces zerg to remain alert and ready for any sneaky builds and prepare accordingly. But at the same time zerg has the ability to "infer" what the toss is most likely doing(Sentry count, units warped in, timings of everything, overlords). With these kinds of builds I feel you most definitely can do a 2 base pressure build. Force the zerg to shy from mass droones, then take advantage of your economic lead to hit a push in the mid game is a valid strategy. Even then tosses still take a third after they pressure, not during or right before. Zerg's can't spare that much besides zerglings and small amount of roaches to counterattack when protoss hits those kinds of timings. Especially with good simcity and building placement, the third is mostly safe.
From my perspective when I play Zerg (mid-Master):
There was a time when FFE totally screwed me. Then I realized I don't need to worry for almost 7:30 minutes and I can just go balls out on drones. As stated in the OP, spores and queens cover the Zerg against air and DTs, so realizing that really helped my game vs. FFE.
What screws me - and screws me badly - are the myriad of options Protoss has when they expand after gateways. Whether it's 3 gate expand, 1 gate expand, 2 gate expand... I feel like I never know exactly what attack is coming, or when it's coming.
Any of those can turn into a 4 gate, a 6 gate, a 7 gate, 3 gate robotics tech, 6 gate blink stalker, fake expands, I've even seen 6 gate stalker with VRs. It feels so much harder to scout, especially because those early gates provide stalkers that can pick off my slow OLs. Hiding your tech and units (like sentry counts) where my lings can't see them at the front also helps.
Ultimately, I hope Protoss keeps going FFE because I feel safest with that build. From my perspective, though - I really think the more dangerous builds are the gateway expands because they're just so freaking unpredictable.
Can someone outline a little the BO/game plan of the 1gate fe? how many zlots do u build for pressure? When do you expand? How do you simcity? etc. etc.
I feel like, when i FFE i just turtle up, get my third, max out, and even if the zerg has 6 bases and 85 drones, and a broodlord infestor mix, i can take it out often
probably will change when i get past diamond though.
EPT
If you do have any specific questions though I'm always up for answering those as well as providing vods/replays when I can.
