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Here's where I stand.
-When protoss first started using FFE, zerg units were less cost effective, and their compositions were much, much less cost effective. Even economics were more fruitful.
-Protoss transitions out of FFE were less discovered. Players would get caught with their pants down routinely due to lack of scouting for proper meta gaming. Now it's almost a science.
With that said
-Protoss economy doesn't scale as fast as a zerg's (both cutting corners), unless his third can be taken as quickly as a zerg's (how often do you see this happen?). The reason for this is a lack of mobility from the protoss army, and no stand alone heroes (like the speedling or speed roach). There is basically no reason a zerg shouldn't constantly have speedlings out on the map, but any time protoss takes anything less than their whole army out... their units are on a suicide mission as they can't retreat, and risk going all in every time they move their army out on the map, because again some zerg units (speedling/infestor) are VERY unforgiving with superior mobility/utility.
In other words, every pvz should be a guessing game for the zerg "can I make more drones? Can I make more drones?". The protoss should fake attacks, do good aggression as cost effectively as possible, and try to get good trades until infestors pop, then you're basically stuck going with huge head to head battles. But what ends up happening when you forge fast expand, a zerg gets a quick third and drones up to 60 drones on 3 base 6 gas optimal saturation (to your 40/50 max saturation on 2 base 4 gas), and still be able to flip the switch, judging from as little as a few zergling pokes and sacrificial overlord scout...to macro up a bigger army than a 2 base protoss. Obviously this is bad.
What is it going to take to change this? Zergs are making 4 zerglings to open on just about every map. This is no different from the more macro obvious maps where FFE is often used, enough to take towers, look for hidden probe and watch the toss natural. I might want to keep this in mind (that at most 4 lings will be coming 9 times out of 10) and just 1 gate cyber wall off and decide where to go from there.
I can do multiple builds from that staging point, clear out the zergling(s) watching my base, or even the towers if they skipped speed, and it's a different game from there. Am I going to 5 gate sentry zlot all in? Am I going to go stargate expand, dt expand, 1 gate expand 6 gate, 4 gate zealot stalker, etc, whereas if I open forge not only am I behind economically, eventually, one build shuts down every single protoss transition out of FFE (3 spores if twilight/stargate) and make speedling roach (with optional queens for stargate or spines for 6/7 gate//+2blink stalkers)
The zergs are getting massively ahead because there is no possible way to pressure a pool first zerg with a forge first protoss.
I can almost understand a nexus-> forge expand, but not a forge first. It'd be ideal if I could always open with a gateway whether or not I'm fast expanding.
Maybe the meta game has reached a point, in masters+ where players aren't always going all in before 10 minutes, where I can safely create builds to open up gateway instead of forge.
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I'm not a protoss player. But is it possible to do a 5-6 zealot attack before the 8 minute mark?
The build I do vs a FFE is that I have an inject popping at 7:30~7:50 that I use for drones, after that I build some lings until my roach warren is up (8:10, as I build my roach warren at 7:00). I think most zergs does something similar.
An attack just before the 8 minute mark would be extremely devastating, as most zergs have just used all their spawned larvae on drones and they don't have the roach warren up. Some might not even have ling speed by then.
I'm thinking something like a 1 gas 6 warpgate zealot attack on the third.
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On August 11 2011 16:55 VoirDire wrote:
I'm not a protoss player. But is it possible to do a 5-6 zealot attack before the 8 minute mark?
The build I do vs a FFE is that I have an inject popping at 7:30~7:50 that I use for drones, after that I build some lings until my roach warren is up (8:10, as I build my roach warren at 7:00). I think most zergs does something similar.
An attack just before the 8 minute mark would be extremely devastating, as most zergs have just used all their spawned larvae on drones and they don't have the roach warren up. Some might not even have ling speed by then.
I'm thinking something like a 1 gas 6 warpgate zealot attack on the third.
Well for starters this will not go unnoticed by a zerg scouting remotely properly. In the time it takes slow zealots to cross a map a production cycle will easily hop in and instead of another drone pump, speedlings can crush those zealots if you can surround them/are not out upgraded.
Then basically the situation has reset. The zerg knows the protoss just lost all his units and goes back to droning while regathering map control/vision.
Something I've seen done is the protoss will acknowledge the zerg will get only 4 lings and boost out a few zealots asap to pressure the natural... but zealots by themselves are only so good vs zerglings so long as they don't get the perfect positioning. This will slow down the zerg by forcing more units, but slow down the power of the protoss as well :X, fewer gateways sooner.
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On August 11 2011 17:21 chipman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:55 VoirDire wrote:
I'm not a protoss player. But is it possible to do a 5-6 zealot attack before the 8 minute mark?
The build I do vs a FFE is that I have an inject popping at 7:30~7:50 that I use for drones, after that I build some lings until my roach warren is up (8:10, as I build my roach warren at 7:00). I think most zergs does something similar.
An attack just before the 8 minute mark would be extremely devastating, as most zergs have just used all their spawned larvae on drones and they don't have the roach warren up. Some might not even have ling speed by then.
I'm thinking something like a 1 gas 6 warpgate zealot attack on the third. Well for starters this will not go unnoticed by a zerg scouting remotely properly. In the time it takes slow zealots to cross a map a production cycle will easily hop in and instead of another drone pump, speedlings can crush those zealots if you can surround them/are not out upgraded. Then basically the situation has reset. The zerg knows the protoss just lost all his units and goes back to droning while regathering map control/vision. Something I've seen done is the protoss will acknowledge the zerg will get only 4 lings and boost out a few zealots asap to pressure the natural... but zealots by themselves are only so good vs zerglings so long as they don't get the perfect positioning. This will slow down the zerg by forcing more units, but slow down the power of the protoss as well :X, fewer gateways sooner.
A production cycle takes 40 seconds. It takes a zealot less than that to get to a third base. Especially from a hidden pylon. If you can attack the 3rd with 6+1 zealot, I don't think most zergs will be able to defend that with reactionary lings.
But I wonder if it's even possible to get wg+6 gates at 7:30 min.
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A production cycle takes 40 seconds. It takes a zealot less than that to get to a third base. Especially from a hidden pylon. If you can attack the 3rd with 6+1 zealot, I don't think most zergs will be able to defend that with reactionary lings.
But I wonder if it's even possible to get wg+6 gates at 7:30 min.
I think the bigger question here is, if this is possible, does it slow down zerg enough to allow protoss to keep up? Obviously the timing will be figured out, will 1 round of roaches be enough to hold? to keep protoss even?
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Without being too particular, I think what you are looking for in terms of fleshing out an advantage from a FFE is a purpose to it.
Vaguely, we can say that you need an extra expansion to even compete in the mid-game. What about that expansions do you need? Is it the gas? Probe production? Chronoboost? Maybe you just want to get your expo up before he can pressure (similar mentality to the Z's fast 3rd).
I think that Protoss needs to start studying the (standard) Zerg (response to FFE) builds more and identifying key times of vulnerability, and weighing the gains of the FFE towards those weak spots. Conversely we can ask what would the benefits of a 1gate-FE be, when considering the standard Z response to that build.
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
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On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective.
Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever.
Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
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to be honest
if after 1 year of play we are still discussing of 1-2 bases blind all-in (emphasis on blind) there's something wrong with the game design.
btw yes, what protosses need to do to stop zerg marco is to make a ball of units before 10 minutes and move to zerg natural, if P go to third there's a risk of a base trade (imho)
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is it possible that everyone here isn't fully utilizing the power of an ffe? a 1 gate expo has the ability to harrass, but so does an ffe, until the stargate or 7 gate comes out you still have cannons. I know what frustrates zergs the most is when i delay my nexus toss down 3 pylons, 2 cannons at his front door and force him to cancel or lose his natural expo. Is it cheap, maybe, cheesy, zeg says it is, is it a cannon rush, no. I understand that some players may be against this idea, but it takes advantage of your forge and allows you to make sentries because of the ammass of gas that you get from building all mineral buildings. if the zerg drone patrols, feel free the harrass by putting down pylons near his base and tossing a cannon down, it will make his life hard and its not a cannon rush, just harrass its not all in and i see pro gamers do it all the time. I forget the match, but i believe white-ra did something similar to idra and just stomped him.
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On August 11 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective. Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever. Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
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On August 12 2011 01:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective. Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever. Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game.
Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
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On August 12 2011 01:46 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 11 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective. Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever. Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game. Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
I agree - just to be clear, I'm completely aware of the cheesy nature of this push I mentioned above.
Nevertheless, when we think back...why have zergs learned that it's not cool to 15 hatch vs us? Because we cannon contain them and/or abuse the 1 base vs 1 base. Also zergs are much more careful in making sure there isn't any 4 gate coming. We were flamed, but it was for the better in the long run.
I have a hunch that something similar has to happen regarding the ludicrously fast third with mass-drones...that's just not right. Zergs end up with an economic lead (and not a small one) each and every game I watch. Yes, toss can catch up, but I don't think it has to be that way. If enough toss players come up with unscoutable fast pushes off a FFE, then maybe zergs will stop doing that. Yes, zerg needs a third when toss has a 2nd, but what we are observing now is insane macro-dominance on a regular basis.
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On August 12 2011 01:46 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 11 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective. Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever. Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game. Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates.
Been working on your 6 gate +1 and it does work fairly well. However if the zerg is active with his lings, he finds your proxy pylon. In that case I make the 6 zealot anyways just to show them, and walk them halfway accross the map. It still forces a lot of units from zerg. I've been following that up with a cheesy double robo 4 colo timing push with decent success.
What do you think is the best transition out of your scouted 6 gate zealot push?
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Huh, the idea of FFE is to tech hard.
I know BW and SC2 is nothing alike, but in BW you get SG, Cidatel, and +1 all in one swoop with the extra gas. And then speed, +2, HTs and storm.
Thats how it should go in SC2 too I believe
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On August 12 2011 01:54 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:46 Anihc wrote:On August 12 2011 01:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 11 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective. Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever. Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game. Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates. I agree - just to be clear, I'm completely aware of the cheesy nature of this push I mentioned above. Nevertheless, when we think back...why have zergs learned that it's not cool to 15 hatch vs us? Because we cannon contain them and/or abuse the 1 base vs 1 base. Also zergs are much more careful in making sure there isn't any 4 gate coming. We were flamed, but it was for the better in the long run. I have a hunch that something similar has to happen regarding the ludicrously fast third with mass-drones...that's just not right. Zergs end up with an economic lead (and not a small one) each and every game I watch. Yes, toss can catch up, but I don't think it has to be that way. If enough toss players come up with unscoutable fast pushes off a FFE, then maybe zergs will stop doing that. Yes, zerg needs a third when toss has a 2nd, but what we are observing now is insane macro-dominance on a regular basis.
Yes, I think the key thing you mention is "unscoutable fast pushes." I'm focusing a lot more lately on scouting denial (trying to hide buildings, as well as chronoing out a stalker to kill ovie sacs asap) as well as deception - (for example, getting all 4 gases really early even when going for a 6 gate +1 zeal rush). Zerg needs different responses against early warpgate rushes and stargate, and we can use that to our advantage - I've seen someone (mana I think?) open up standard FFE > stargate but also get a quick 4 warpgates, harass with a void ray and then warp in 2 fast rounds of zealots and stream in 8 zealots to easily take out the third which was defended by 2 queens and 2 spores. I'm sure the reverse can be exploited as well - don't take natural gases that fast and go for a standard warpgate rush, but hide a stargate and surprise his 3rd with void rays after he holds off your zealots with roaches.
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I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
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On August 12 2011 01:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:46 Anihc wrote:On August 12 2011 01:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 11 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:On August 11 2011 21:49 yarkO wrote:
Right now, it feels like Protoss has figured out a way to secure that fast expansion, but hasn't yet worked out a path to punishment. The best suggestion I have read is the 6-gate Zealot pressure on the 3rd. Zealot rushes were effective in BW against the fast 3rd style and I think if you can land a favorable forward Pylon, the pressure should be enough to allow you a 3rd, or at least inflict enough damage that a follow-up 2-base push can be effective. Yesterday I saw HuK go for FFE into an 8 gate...which is basicly the 2 base version of a 4 gate and just roflstomp the greedy zerg into the soil of Tal'Darim. It wasn't close whatsoever. Maybe we are overthinking this a bit and all the metagame needs is some painful, disgusting 2-base cheese that keeps zerg more honest with their units and tech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying an opponent playing blindly greedy, and just killing them for it. If the greed is a common occurance then I'd take the free wins, and eventually Zergs will realize that they have to actually not drone blind in that particular scenario, thus letting you both play a more reactive and responsive game. Yea my 6 gate +1 wins the game outright almost 50% of the time. The problem is that you can't identify an opponent blindly playing greedy before you commit to the build though. The best you can do is to abandon the attack and not waste your troops, but you would be slightly behind on probes and/or gas had you not rushed for the 6 or 8 gates. Been working on your 6 gate +1 and it does work fairly well. However if the zerg is active with his lings, he finds your proxy pylon. In that case I make the 6 zealot anyways just to show them, and walk them halfway accross the map. It still forces a lot of units from zerg. I've been following that up with a cheesy double robo 4 colo timing push with decent success. What do you think is the best transition out of your scouted 6 gate zealot push?
Depends on when my 6 gate zealot is scouted. If he sees only 2 gas and 5 warpgates warping in with an ovie, I kill the ovie, then cancel 1 or 2 gates and get a twilight and/or robo and switch to something more standard. I know I've already forced a response from the zerg and he won't be greedily droning. If he doesn't scout my warpgates but does find the proxy pylon, yes I do what you say and warp in those 6 zealots at home and move them onto the map to force a reaction as well. Then usually I try to get a quick 3rd and start making normal sentry/stalker to defend it.
Your idea of a double robo colo attack off 2 base sounds good though, corruptors are decreasing in popularity in favor of infestors and I don't understand why everyone thinks infestors counter colossus, because they really don't unless you only have 1 or 2. I still make colossus all the time (after a brief stint trying to go stalker/ht/sentry/immortal every game, but having mixed results) and they work fine for me against infestor play.
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On August 12 2011 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote:
I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p
Hmm, my 6 gate off a FFE can come as early as 8 minutes, and the only way for a zerg to defend a 3rd against it is to make roaches...
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As Z I also relish the chance to play against FFE. It's almost always followed by some random 2 base timing that's easy to hold w/ a wave of roaches and just pumping +1 lings.
I have had trouble however, against people who posture with their army- poking at my creep and such, and expanding without really ever committing to an attack. As soon as you have a decent sized army just skip a round of warp-ins and cannon up an expo. From there it becomes a much more interesting game.
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On August 12 2011 02:16 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:11 Alejandrisha wrote:
I've been moving away from FFE. I feel like I absolutely HAVE to do it on tal darim just because it's reeeeeeally tough to simcity with a 1gate fe since it's so damn wide open. I played vs moonglade on his smurf last night and I was trying to 1 gate fe on that map and he won the game with like 14 slings haha.
On xel naga 1gate FE is extremely safe with the additional gates placed in the natural. This is the same with every map, IMO, outside of tal'darim altar. A one gate fe gives you windows between 7-9 mins that you absolutely don't have off of an FFE. (in conjunction with Z being better able to secure a 3rd against air play) When you FFE, you're saying hey zerg- Take a 3rd, or don't. I can't do anything about it.
When you 1gate FE, you can deny the third with 60 food 3wg poke a la zenexpuzzle so long as they didn't open roach; if they opened roach to secure the 3rd and teched up to infestors......... Well I don't know wtf you do about that :p Hmm, my 6 gate off a FFE can come as early as 8 minutes, and the only way for a zerg to defend a 3rd against it is to make roaches...
Does a 6gate w/o blink work well against roach openers? As in if they open roach you take a 3rd or tech? I'm familiar with a 5gate off of a 3g expo that hits at about that time and am not sure what the advantages of FFE'ing are in that case.
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EPT
