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On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Zerg will have an economic advantage the majority of the game if you Forge Fast Expand as you can't put pressure early enough to prevent him from spamming D.
Obviously if you play smart and don't suicide your army technically you're not behind, but there needs to be some sort of timing attack in terms of harassment or pressure because that economic advantage will lead to an intense growth of their army. This is obvious as they have larvae injection. I have no real opinion on any matchup and whether it is balanced or not as the metagame/strategies have not been developed enough.
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On August 11 2011 01:21 kineSiS- wrote:
Obviously if you play smart and don't suicide your army technically you're not behind, but there needs to be some sort of timing attack in terms of harassment or pressure because that economic advantage will lead to an intense growth of their army.
Wtf, did you not comprehend my post at all? All of my suggestions about transitions after FFE are about gateway timing attacks (at "non-traditional" timings - such as 8 min 6 gate +1 zeal), with the addition of the fact that these attacks don't have to be all-in and you can either expand behind them or back off and expand safely
On August 11 2011 01:21 kineSiS- wrote:.I have no real opinion on any matchup and whether it is balanced or not as the metagame/strategies have not been developed enough.
Ow, my brain hurts from reading this sentence.
1) Don't comment if you don't have an opinion.
2) No one is talking about balance here. Don't even mention it.
3) Learn what metagame means before using it.
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I have pretty much the same problem than the OP with the FFE build. I'm using this build everytime I can, but Z players learned to deal with by taking their third really fast.
Taking a fast third is hard too, because the opponent can just mass up Roaches / Flings and crush your little army ( Fast stargate into colossi / third let you with very few units for a long time... ) or delay your expansion.
I feel like that putting pressure on zerg is crucial on the early stage of the game, just because forcing him to make a unit instead of a drone at the 5 mn Mark is way more efficient than doing it at 10mn.
I'm currently working on a FFE build into 6 gate with hallucinated zealot +1 (you get 2 of them per hallucination) which is going pretty well for the moment.
Actually, I'm asking myself if faking a entire army with hallucination between 5 - 10 mn mark (working on it :D) wouldn't be super effective to force units with 0 risk or send the fake at the natural and the real one at the third if scouted... (hallucination is underestimated IMHO, if anyone is interested, i can upload a replay!).
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On August 10 2011 19:09 Lazzi wrote:
I think the best way right now to play it is ffe into stargate . You make the stargate before you researching warpgate and you apply preasure while teching to collo and trying to get a third . In worst case you will do no dommage but force more queen and spine and in the best case you can get the third base . However , the really important think is to not loose his voidray even if you don't do any dommages because if you loose it , you can't make anymore preasure and the Z we'll feel way fore comfortable.
That's so dangerous. I used to do it, but it is soooo risky. Basically what you're doing is tech, then tech some more, than expand. If he gets some queens to defend, and just builds a massive army off of his economy, he will be able to kill you because you invested too much into tech and economy.
On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Thank you for this wonderful post.
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On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Could you sometime write a guide outlining how to FFE? There's lots of scattered posts all around, none of which seem to agree on build order or how to react to scouting or what maps are better to nexus first or forge at whatever on. I can usually scrape by with a "forge fast expand", my problem is i feel SO clunky transitioning into whatever out of it. You'd be my favorite if you could throw some light on the topic :D
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On August 11 2011 02:50 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Could you sometime write a guide outlining how to FFE? There's lots of scattered posts all around, none of which seem to agree on build order or how to react to scouting or what maps are better to nexus first or forge at whatever on. I can usually scrape by with a "forge fast expand", my problem is i feel SO clunky transitioning into whatever out of it. You'd be my favorite if you could throw some light on the topic :D
Second. I would love a GM player or Pro to lay out the specific timings of FFE into SG, DT and #gatepush. I understand these in concept, but in pratice, I'm terrible at them.
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When i ffe, i find that it is hard to take a third less you have a good way to pressure the zerg to cover the expansion. Blink play can be good, but it can die really fast to roach/hydra spam off 2 base, so I guess scouting is also an issue.
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On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds.
First of all, I don't "struggle", I'm blue therefore awsome by definition 
Joking aside:
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
Do you have any (preferably pro)-replays of this? You really got me with that because yes, I'm one of the classic MC-copy-cats who go FFE --> stargate, harass with voidray/phoenix, realize that you can't do any damage after killing 2 overlords, try to macro a stalker/colossus-ball and get roflstomped later.
I've seen both HuK and Mana do this gateway-attack-follow-up, I also mentioned it in one post. The problem is, I have neither experience, nor do I recognize any "pattern" when watching streams/VODs. Meaning, they attack at a timing that is completely random to me and that I can't grasp. I like the underlying idea of getting the zerg into the thinking-pattern "cool, stargate, lets make some queens and mass-drones" and then killing him with a 6 gate attack or at least getting him to invest into units while taking the third behind all that. But I have no idea how such a build could/should/would look like.
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On August 11 2011 02:50 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
First of all, while I like the idea of this discussion, it seems like your struggles are with PvZ in general and not so much these 2 opening builds. Both these openings have their advantages and disadvantages, and both can work (pretty much PvZ's 2 best openers right now).
Also let me preface this by saying that I don't have too much experience with 1 gate FE. My initial experience with 1 gate FE is that while sometimes it can force the zerg to be more cautious with your earlier aggressive potential, many zergs still treat it as any other fast expansion and just drone up like they do against FFE, and then you're just economically behind with no gain. But I could just be playing it wrong so I won't comment too much on 1 gate FE vs FFE.
Instead let share my thoughts on misconceptions with FFE and how to FFE more effectively.
1. The most optimal followup/transition is stargate play. This is false. Many other builds can pressure, provide safety, and provide scouting just as well as stargate play. For example, remember half a year ago when you can play super standard and follow up a 3 gate expand with robo play? You can still do this with a FFE. There's no need for "gimmicky" tech builds like stargate or DTs or blink. Get a robo instead of stargate, and get gateways relatively faster and start making sentries. Then you'll have a fast obs for scouting, and lots of sentries for defense, then you can move into the map with your gateway/robo army and put pressure on the zerg with a regular ground army. If the zerg mass drones on 3 bases and techs slow and only has ling/roach, that has a really difficult time dealing with a 10+ sentry army.
2. The best transition after FFE > stargate is colossus. Yea, that makes sense. Force hydras blah blah and kill with colossus. But this is way too predictable and counterable. Try following up a stargate opener with a 6 gate attack. This comes earlier than colossus, will absolutely destroy anyone who tries to spire in response or continues to drone/tech after fending off your void/phoenix harass thinking they're safe. And if the zerg masses too much hydra/roach instead, you can get your own 3rd much earlier and safer than going the colossus route.
3. 6 gate attacks come too late to be effective, are easy to scout/counter, and are gimmicky/all-in. Yes, I agree that a standard 6 gate with some sentry/stalker/zealot is not that great. But I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
So to sum up, I'm in favor of bigger gateway armies in the beginning, and slower teching. Whether this is a 1 robo 5 gate army, a fast 6 gate army, a fast blink army, or a stargate > 6 gate army, this allows you to punish the zerg if he drones too hard, or back off and establish your own 3rd safely if you choose.
EDIT: A note about taking 3rds as Protoss: don't expect to take your 3rd as fast as the zerg can and be able to safely defend it. This isn't possible. The zerg WILL have an eco advantage in the mid game when his 3rd is set up and safe and you realize you can't kill it with your gateway army. It's ok. You're not behind - as long as you play smart and don't suicide your army, the zerg will have a difficult time in stopping you from getting your own 3rd, and then a 3 base protoss can be pretty scary.
Could you sometime write a guide outlining how to FFE? There's lots of scattered posts all around, none of which seem to agree on build order or how to react to scouting or what maps are better to nexus first or forge at whatever on. I can usually scrape by with a "forge fast expand", my problem is i feel SO clunky transitioning into whatever out of it. You'd be my favorite if you could throw some light on the topic :D
I wrote this a while back. Some parts are a bit outdated but the general idea behind an FFE into stargate are here :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230939
I agree that someone should write a full guide about FFE on all maps and different transitions.
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I find this discussion interesting because I feel the opposite. I feel like if I cant FFE on a map then I am at a huge disadvantage vs zerg. 3gate expand has been completely figured out by zergs. 1gate expand is very tricky to pull off and in my experience only possible when zerg has a late gas, otherwise zerg shows up with 12 lings and 4 roaches and all I have is 3 sentries and zealot. The winner of that battle is obvious.
edit: What I like to do after a FFE is build a stargate, and make just a single void. This will force defense from the zerg, because he must prepare for the void/phoenix harass that is never coming. Use the void to kill overlords, scouting lings, and to scout your opponents buildings. Follow this up with mass gateway units. Depending on the situation you can either attack or take a third and tech to colossus. If you take the third you should at least do some pressuring with your army so zerg cant macro up 80+ drones. I usually like to start making voids again at some point because your opponent wont make hydras when he realises you arent getting mass air.
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I've never really liked FFE to be honest. The way I get by with FFE is by keeping the Zerg in the dark by using early Zealots to clear Xel'Nagas, and poke around looking for a Third, sometimes just attacking at odd times with 2 Zealots after clearing Towers. Basically I exploit weak players, though if I were to face a really good Zerg.. They wouldn't fall for it and simply build just enough to kill whatever I'm doing early game.
I've seen MC and some other Protoss do really well with 1 Gate FE into a fast third. Basically if you're good with your third timing, and cut an appropriate amount of gateway units I'm confident you can play without falling behind. See MC vs I think it was Sheth on Metal recently. MC cut a lot of Gateway units a lot of the time in reaction to Sheth's passivity.
I feel a FFE has to be a reactive opening. You can lay a blind forge down, but I think it's important to either cancel it, or not make any cannons the moment you know an early pool isn't being throw at you. I feel 1 Gate FE and 3 Gate FE both are fine openings, and I feel 3 Gate Expand is the opening zergs are currently most comfortable playing against. I don't think any of those openings is "out-dated" or just plain weak anymore. I do feel that certain ones are better on certain maps and in certain situations compared to the others.
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not from low player.
With my freind i get him to 3gate pressure into expo into 6gate for a 3rd, 9gate to take a 4th. He upgrades of 1. And gets blink, charge and hallusinations. Basically. He plays reactiveley with the warpgates, but quite heave on static defences to deter herass/run buys. 1 cannön per mineraline then adding 2nd after taking nat at both bases, 3rd with 3rd base, 4 with 4 etc...
He builds alot i mean alot of sentries, and faints units, generally zeals an stalker. This simple combination, has had me waste larva and fungles. Ff are pureley defensive to prevent any busts.
Basically 3 gate sentry expand with cannons over units.
We are silver level player though, maybe a pro can tell me how to beat that.
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On August 11 2011 03:50 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
not from low player.
With my freind i get him to 3gate pressure into expo into 6gate for a 3rd, 9gate to take a 4th. He upgrades of 1. And gets blink, charge and hallusinations. Basically. He plays reactiveley with the warpgates, but quite heave on static defences to deter herass/run buys. 1 cannön per mineraline then adding 2nd after taking nat at both bases, 3rd with 3rd base, 4 with 4 etc...
He builds alot i mean alot of sentries, and faints units, generally zeals an stalker. This simple combination, has had me waste larva and fungles. Ff are pureley defensive to prevent any busts.
Basically 3 gate sentry expand with cannons over units.
We are silver level player though, maybe a pro can tell me how to beat that.
That'll unfortunately start losing around gold league because he'll simply fall behind in economy. He's taking a late 2nd base AND he's not using his most powerful units (sentries) to make an offense. If he's hitting with zealot stalker pokes late enough you can have fungals, just macroing a little better will crush it.
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On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would.
What if you do this, and zerg opens a nydus near your third (but in your fog of war) and pumps some composition that includes a good number of hydras at your third? Is it possible for the zerg to do that? Can he have enough hydras to overcome your gateway-heavy army supported by cannons? If you scout the den and the nydus bulding in the zerg's base, how would you respond?
My fear is that by using the mobility of nydus to overcome defender's advantage and slow off-creep hydra speed, there is just no way to defend without colossus or templar...but if you wait until you have enough of those units to take a third, then you've delayed your economy so much that the zerg's economy is overwhelming (since he can choose whether or not to build the hydras based on whether or not he scouts the RF). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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On August 11 2011 04:04 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would. What if you do this, and zerg opens a nydus near your third (but in your fog of war) and pumps some composition that includes a good number of hydras at your third? Is it possible for the zerg to do that? Can he have enough hydras to overcome your gateway-heavy army supported by cannons? If you scout the den and the nydus bulding in the zerg's base, how would you respond? My fear is that by using the mobility of nydus to overcome defender's advantage and slow off-creep hydra speed, there is just no way to defend without colossus or templar...but if you wait until you have enough of those units to take a third, then you've delayed your economy so much that the zerg's economy is overwhelming (since he can choose whether or not to build the hydras based on whether or not he scouts the RF). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I don't see why a Nydus attack on your third is relevant to what anihc is talking about. That's not even a tactic commonly used. You should as a Protoss realize what they are doing and match their army value in order to take your third when you feel it's needed.
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From what I've experienced/seen from pros is that to achieve this massive eco advantage the 3rd is laid down so early it can (and should) be scouted by your initial probe scout. If you open FFE I think cannon rushing can be effective here. At the very least it forces units and disrupts the zerg player.
Personally I've never been a fan of FFE even though I do use it on some maps. To me the strength of the FFE or 15 Nexus is not the strict eco advantage (which is debatable since if you don't FFE zerg won't take that super early 3rd), but the fact that you can make certain unit compositions on 2-bases (void ray/colossi) that is not possible with a normal 1 or 3-gate sentry expand since you can skimp on sentries.
Right now the mentality of protoss players is mostly geared around 2-base timing attacks, yet I remember in season 1 when FFE/15 Nex was able to keep up with the zerg worker count with chrono boosted probes. I don't believe it is a given that protoss cannot keep up economically with proper expo timings and pressuring to force units. For example would you really be behind if you 1-gate FE (so zerg doesn't take that super early 3rd), then take your 3rd immediately after warp-gate tech is done? You would take your 3rd behind a gateway army and feint some pressure to force units.
I also think it's a problem to automatically assume a zerg plays flawlessly and that certain strategies are outdated or completely figured out. Stargate openers out of FE is still viable and there are many variations as you can go 1 or 2 stargate, more void ray or phoenix heavy, fake a stargate and just 1 void ray, etc. 6-gates are still incredibly effective vs fast 3rds especially if you get a proxy pylon up.
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On August 10 2011 18:22 Tryxtira wrote:
From my experience of watching this FFE-strat develop during the last months, I do firmly believe that if you're going FFE, the correct response from the Zerg is to get a quick third, I believe that a Protoss should then respond in the exact same fashion. Getting a quick third. I believe that this is the only way to do it without getting as you say in a very disadvantageous position.
My own favorite way to do this is to go for Stargate play, force sporecrawlers and extra queens, possibly Hydras, and then simply 4-6 pheonixes to get map control and from here expand while the Zerg is defending up his 3 bases, I'm sure I've seen a few proreplays where this style is being used, I just can't find them at the moment.
If P goes for an ultra fast 3rd to counter Zerg's fast 3rd, Zerg responds with Muta, and neither Blink/Storm nor a sufficient number of Stalkers to cover 3 mineral lines are done in time to prevent massive damage. Does anyone disagree with this statement?
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I think the biggest problem with PvZ at this moment is a timing window in the early game where protoss absolutely can't scout. Once speedlings pop, zerg has full map control and any zerg player who plays properly should spot a probe on the map and kill it pretty fast. This is true whether we're playing a gate expand strategy or a FFE.
We have to get hallucination/air/observer to know what's going on... And by that time, it's often too late: There's been enough time for the zerg to get a significant macro lead on the protoss, or an attack comes right as the scout pops out. The time to make a decision as to how we follow through after getting the natural happens before we can see anything the zerg does, so it's essentially a coin flip.
Is the 1 gate expand better than the FFE? Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I would say the 1 gate expand makes you able to pressure faster, but it also is more risky: You're defending with 3 units and relying on the zerg not to force a cancel on your nexus. If we start seeing more 1 gate expands, we're just going to see more early ling pokes.
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No where near fully tested idea -
+ Show Spoiler +I've been working on a zealot/cannon early game push to deny the natural, or at the very least a fast third, getting the nexus at a similar timing as if you went a ~30 food 1 gate FE.
Essentially, 14 gate/~16 forge, or similar depending on map (earlier gate for further spawn positions/scouting info), starting a wall at the natural. 1-2 partially walled cannons and a zealot does wonders against a hatch/pool, is hit or miss vs pool/hatch, terrible vs gas/pool or pool/gas. VS early pools, I don't know, theorycrafting tells me either easy win or crushing defeat
Very limited testing on ladder, just throwing it out there if someone else wants to test it further
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On August 11 2011 04:37 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 04:04 galivet wrote:On August 11 2011 00:35 Anihc wrote:
I'm a big fan of the zealot-only 6 gate +1, which can happen as early as 8:00 (depending on how proxy of a pylon you can set up). The trick to this build is to not make it all-in. How? Don't stop making probes. Know when your attack will not work or be ineffective. For example, you warp in your first 6 zealots and head over to the zerg's 3rd, and you see roaches popping out. Or your 6 gate gets scouted by an overlord. You don't have to attack! You've already forced a response out of the zerg by making him get defense earlier than usual. Now warp in a round of sentries, and get your 3rd faster. Your big gateway army helps you defend your 3rd much better than a fast colossus or 1 void ray would. What if you do this, and zerg opens a nydus near your third (but in your fog of war) and pumps some composition that includes a good number of hydras at your third? Is it possible for the zerg to do that? Can he have enough hydras to overcome your gateway-heavy army supported by cannons? If you scout the den and the nydus bulding in the zerg's base, how would you respond? My fear is that by using the mobility of nydus to overcome defender's advantage and slow off-creep hydra speed, there is just no way to defend without colossus or templar...but if you wait until you have enough of those units to take a third, then you've delayed your economy so much that the zerg's economy is overwhelming (since he can choose whether or not to build the hydras based on whether or not he scouts the RF). Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't see why a Nydus attack on your third is relevant to what anihc is talking about. That's not even a tactic commonly used. You should as a Protoss realize what they are doing and match their army value in order to take your third when you feel it's needed.
I'm trying to discuss the idea of building a big +1 zealot-heavy gateway army to psychologically pressure the zerg but actually employing it to secure a third base rather than using it press an attack.
So what if you do that and then the zerg responds by using nydus to put a bunch of hydras + meatshields in striking distance of your third? Hydras are the counter to lots of gateway units and the conventional wisdom is that you need colossus or templar to defend against them, which you won't have if you decided to go mass gateway and take a third. So how now brown cow? I'm hoping that since Anihc is "a big fan" of this strategy he's used it enough to know what the outcome of this situation is.
I mean maybe I'm missing some implicit assumption in what Anihc's talking about -- for example, "There's no way that the zerg will have a lair in the situation I'm describing, so you're talking nonsense."
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EPT
