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On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
I usually go 4 rax. lol.
All kiddings aside if your macro is good, 1 rax FE into 3 rax should allow you to get a pretty fast 3rd unless you are going pure marauders.
Dropping the protoss isnt a must thing. You must understand at points this is almost a mirror match, since this is a deathball vs deathball situation, then you must realize how big of a risk drops are - you can easily lose that dropship dealing no damage and instantly be behind in supply.
Pressuring the protoss however, is a must. But personally I feel this only applies when hes getting a third, and even then if you manage to delay his third for so long that your own is already fully saturated, you really can just wait for a 3/3 200/200 army and just go kill him with the advantage.
On September 21 2012 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Why don't more people use 2rax reactor/tech lab in TvT? It hits before your opponent can get siege mode or a starport up and running, and it seems to not do anything like leave you way behind in tech. Can someone please explain this to me?
I don't see how a 2rax will do anything useful in TvT. It puts you behind economically, and I don't see how it will do any substantial damage to justify that. However I remember mvp straight up kill happy with this build in the GSL. I don't remember what build happy went though...
If you are gonna 2 rax reactor/techlab, then your pretty much making a coin flip hoping he does not build a bunker and if he does, they you are either going to be extremely behind economically or tech wise.
So in other words do not go 2 rax in tvt
Ok. Thanks for the answer.
lol mvp.
Lets remember that Mvp and Happy are both on the same team and Mvp can probably read Happy like that back of his hand.
I imagine him changing his name to IMSad each time he gets Mvp for opponent
1) The medivac cloud ZvT is needing a medivac cloud (I usually end up without around 16) a sign of bad splitting against Infestors (or bad micro in general)? I find it hard to analyze pro matches on this matter as it's varies alot on what they use, I assume it's based on tells they understand and I don't? I like very aggressive heavy bio-based play, but some times it feels like I have too little DPS on the ground with the large cloud of "guardian angels" in the sky.
Basically: How do you tell what you need to put supply into - DPS vs Sustainability? In a nutshell my issue is sometimes I lack damage and other times I lack heal, finding the golden middleway seems hard for me -- is there an "optimal" ratio I should shoot for with heavy bio play in ZvT?
2) Ghosts When should one start to mix in ghosts against infestors or are marauders simply better due to their strength against ultralisks, buildings and tankiness? I have mixed results with either - the times one fails it seems like the other would have been better and vice-versa: boil down to infestor count I assume?
On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
I usually go 4 rax. lol.
All kiddings aside if your macro is good, 1 rax FE into 3 rax should allow you to get a pretty fast 3rd unless you are going pure marauders.
Dropping the protoss isnt a must thing. You must understand at points this is almost a mirror match, since this is a deathball vs deathball situation, then you must realize how big of a risk drops are - you can easily lose that dropship dealing no damage and instantly be behind in supply.
Pressuring the protoss however, is a must. But personally I feel this only applies when hes getting a third, and even then if you manage to delay his third for so long that your own is already fully saturated, you really can just wait for a 3/3 200/200 army and just go kill him with the advantage.
Taeja's rax cc 2 rax double gas to medivac with a faster than normal armory
I haven't seen the Taeja games he's referring to, so could someone please clarify what's the purpose of that faster than normal armory? Fast +1 upgrade to Vikings? Also how much "faster" should it be? I've been getting it in time to start +2 right after +1 finishes, should I get it earlier than that.
If anyone can indicate some replays or VODs that'd be greatly appreciated.
Taeja's rax cc 2 rax double gas to medivac with a faster than normal armory
I haven't seen the Taeja games he's referring to, so could someone please clarify what's the purpose of that faster than normal armory? Fast +1 upgrade to Vikings? Also how much "faster" should it be? I've been getting it in time to start +2 right after +1 finishes, should I get it earlier than that.
If anyone can indicate some replays or VODs that'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
A lot of terrans get their armory and second engineering bay around when +1 armor is about 50% finished. They start 2/2 at the same time. Taeja starts his armory and second engineering bay around when +1 attack is 50% finished. Hence when other terrans are only upgrading +1 armor, Taeja is upgrading +2 attack and + 1 armor. Taeja is just trying to stay ahead of, (or more even with) protoss upgrades.
This was from TSL so it's a few weeks old but basically shows the kind of play Ver is referring to.
Master terran, how do I deal with 2 base muta when going mech? I start making thors, how many should I make? It is so hard to scout how many mutas he keeps making. If I make too many thors he can switch roaches and roll me. Also the mutas shut down my banshees, I open hellion banshee like standard. I also need turrets, how many? How should I take my third when there are mutas? Should I wait till I have 4 thors and 4 tanks? But that is too late, zerg will have a big eco lead. With the standard mech build you get 2 armory and 3 bases off 1 fact. Isnt that too greedy? I have a hard time securing my third, I need to wait so long that zerg can just roll me with eco lead. Isnt is better to go 3 fact to secure a third base and then add upgrades? I have hard time scouting tech switches from zerg, I feel like if I have no the perfect unit comp I lose. Not enough thors, die to muta, not enough tanks, die to roach, but I need to be greedy to match zerg greed but if I do I always die. Even infestors that come in and spam infested terrans on my army cause trouble. Pls help.
On September 21 2012 08:08 Marathi wrote: How do you guys deal with overlords on drop paths in TvZ?
I play a drop heavy style of TvZ and normally I send out double vikings first off my reactored starport to clear the overlords from a few different paths, but once my vikings have died and the overlords replaced and supported by muta and/or corrupters it becomes a real pain knowing that the zerg can read all my drops and any pushes at the front due to creep.
I am only gold level so I haven't quite got the art down of controlling creep spread yet, but any advice is welcome, thanks.
You can't prevent Zergs from having Overlords on common drop routes if they get Mutalisks. Even when they get Infestors your Viking can only clear Overlords in air space, above the ground it is vulnerable to Fungal + ITs. Two Vikings is overkill by the way, only one should do.
On September 21 2012 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Why don't more people use 2rax reactor/tech lab in TvT? It hits before your opponent can get siege mode or a starport up and running, and it seems to not do anything like leave you way behind in tech. Can someone please explain this to me?
It's a coinflippy all-in at best. If you really want to play this, go Stim first, pull most of your SCVs when you move out and hope for the best.
On September 21 2012 08:50 Doko wrote: Any tips on how to scout protoss in the early game? I really don't know what to look for beyond chrono energy, I don't really know the timing of the gasses to determine what they can do before my scv dies or I have to pull him out. And is there a way to identify 6/8 gateway all ins? I keep dying to this with 2 bunkers and scvs on repair standing by. They seem to hit about 30-40 seconds before stim finishes with a standard 1 rax gasless expand.
When scouting a Protoss you want to look at the following things:
- Energy on Nexus. - Number of gases (and look how much gas he mined to know if he took them at the standard timings) + how many Probes are mining. - Number of Pylons (should be 3 shortly before your SCV has to leave). - Pylon placement (Pylons in the corner should make you suspicious).
You will never hold massive Gateway timings with only 2 Bunkers, you need at least 4 to hold them. Scan natural around 7'30, if you saw no gas or if he's just taking them it usually means X gate is coming. You should have sneaked a SCV earlier on the map to rule out fast third.
When the Protoss attacks, focus Sentries—especially those casting Guardian Shield.
On September 22 2012 00:43 Jek wrote: Two questions in regards to TvZ:
1) The medivac cloud ZvT is needing a medivac cloud (I usually end up without around 16) a sign of bad splitting against Infestors (or bad micro in general)? I find it hard to analyze pro matches on this matter as it's varies alot on what they use, I assume it's based on tells they understand and I don't? I like very aggressive heavy bio-based play, but some times it feels like I have too little DPS on the ground with the large cloud of "guardian angels" in the sky.
Basically: How do you tell what you need to put supply into - DPS vs Sustainability? In a nutshell my issue is sometimes I lack damage and other times I lack heal, finding the golden middleway seems hard for me -- is there an "optimal" ratio I should shoot for with heavy bio play in ZvT?
2) Ghosts When should one start to mix in ghosts against infestors or are marauders simply better due to their strength against ultralisks, buildings and tankiness? I have mixed results with either - the times one fails it seems like the other would have been better and vice-versa: boil down to infestor count I assume?
If you play pure bio against Zerg, get at least 10 Medivacs, but no more than 15. With Marines/Tanks, having 6 or 8 should be enough.
You may get Ghosts when you take your fourth, they're too expensive before. If you build Ghosts, you may as well use Nukes too.
On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
Comments about your replay:
- If you don't wall don't build a second Supply Depot before expanding. Your CC is 30 seconds late for nothing. - You're talking, so your build order isn't crisply executed and you don't pay attention to your SCV, which dies without scouting his Nexus. As a result, you make a useless second Bunker too early. - Don't leave one Marine at the Tower, it's useless as a Stalker will inevitably take it back and kill your Marine. - Your Stim is 45 seconds late, make a Tech Lab as soon as you have 25 gas. - Since you have no idea what's going on, you make too many Marines and start banking gas. Your Factory should go down earlier (basically with the 100 gas following Stim). - Why are you taking your gas shortly before the 8' mark? You already have 450 gas banked and nothing to spend it! - Factory is 2 minuts late. You should nearly be starting your first 2 Medivacs by the time you're making your Factory. - You have 700 gas by the 10'30 mark. You really need to pull SCVs out of your Refineries at the natural. - Make your third before Armory and second EB. - Since your Medivacs are so late, Protoss can take an uncontested third early. - Don't try this kind of horrible move with mostly Marines at the 12'15 mark. You won't get the Colossus, Sentries will trap your bio between the cliff and FFs and you will lose everything for some Zealots. Marauders can try to snipe Colossi this way, not Marines. - Don't take your gases right away at the third without thinking, you already have 1k gas banked and you're lacking minerals. - Why do you randomly drop if you don't even watch what happens? - 8 Barracks on three bases is enough while you're maxxing. - You're late on your Ghosts, he already had HTs with Storm ready, you would have simply died had he pushed. - Stop making Marauders by lategame. Make Ghosts instead. Get a second Starport, get PFs in front of your natural, get Turrets at the edges of your base, get Sensor Towers; sacrifice SCVs and don't bank (invest in macro OCs). - Don't split your army in two this way before the main engagement around the 24' mark, it's too difficult to manage. - Don't. Make. Marauders. Really, make 30 Ghosts instead, you will see the difference against Zealots. - See the free hits your Cloaked Ghosts have at the following fight? Now imagine there are 30 of them, and you had enough Vikings to kill Colossi and Observers. This is your goal when you have a good economy, 25-30 Ghosts and 20+ Vikings. - Remake lost Medivacs. You need at least 3 Reactor Starports with that much gas. Get, say, 6 Medivacs.
So, to sum up: work on the execution of your build, particularly your gas income; be more active by midgame to delay Protoss' third; don't split your armies this way before main engagements (you were basically splitting while the Protoss was already attacking you); get additional Starports by lategame; don't make Marauders in lategame, make mass Ghosts instead.
On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
Comments about your replay:
- If you don't wall don't build a second Supply Depot before expanding. Your CC is 30 seconds late for nothing. - You're talking, so your build order isn't crisply executed and you don't pay attention to your SCV, which dies without scouting his Nexus. As a result, you make a useless second Bunker too early. - Don't leave one Marine at the Tower, it's useless as a Stalker will inevitably take it back and kill your Marine. - Your Stim is 45 seconds late, make a Tech Lab as soon as you have 25 gas. - Since you have no idea what's going on, you make too many Marines and start banking gas. Your Factory should go down earlier (basically with the 100 gas following Stim). - Why are you taking your gas shortly before the 8' mark? You already have 450 gas banked and nothing to spend it! - Factory is 2 minuts late. You should nearly be starting your first 2 Medivacs by the time you're making your Factory. - You have 700 gas by the 10'30 mark. You really need to pull SCVs out of your Refineries at the natural. - Make your third before Armory and second EB. - Since your Medivacs are so late, Protoss can take an uncontested third early. - Don't try this kind of horrible move with mostly Marines at the 12'15 mark. You won't get the Colossus, Sentries will trap your bio between the cliff and FFs and you will lose everything for some Zealots. Marauders can try to snipe Colossi this way, not Marines. - Don't take your gases right away at the third without thinking, you already have 1k gas banked and you're lacking minerals. - Why do you randomly drop if you don't even watch what happens? - 8 Barracks on three bases is enough while you're maxxing. - You're late on your Ghosts, he already had HTs with Storm ready, you would have simply died had he pushed. - Stop making Marauders by lategame. Make Ghosts instead. Get a second Starport, get PFs in front of your natural, get Turrets at the edges of your base, get Sensor Towers; sacrifice SCVs and don't bank (invest in macro OCs). - Don't split your army in two this way before the main engagement around the 24' mark, it's too difficult to manage. - Don't. Make. Marauders. Really, make 30 Ghosts instead, you will see the difference against Zealots. - See the free hits your Cloaked Ghosts have at the following fight? Now imagine there are 30 of them, and you had enough Vikings to kill Colossi and Observers. This is your goal when you have a good economy, 25-30 Ghosts and 20+ Vikings. - Remake lost Medivacs. You need at least 3 Reactor Starports with that much gas. Get, say, 6 Medivacs.
So, to sum up: work on the execution of your build, particularly your gas income; be more active by midgame to delay Protoss' third; don't split your armies this way before main engagements (you were basically splitting while the Protoss was already attacking you); get additional Starports by lategame; don't make Marauders in lategame, make mass Ghosts instead.
it's my replay but WOW thank you man you really helped me! i never thought i made that much wrong O.o I really hope i can fix those mistakes,
again thanks for the tips and for explaining my faults and thanks for your time!
On September 22 2012 02:41 Aquila- wrote: Master terran, how do I deal with 2 base muta when going mech? I start making thors, how many should I make? It is so hard to scout how many mutas he keeps making. If I make too many thors he can switch roaches and roll me. Also the mutas shut down my banshees, I open hellion banshee like standard. I also need turrets, how many? How should I take my third when there are mutas? Should I wait till I have 4 thors and 4 tanks? But that is too late, zerg will have a big eco lead. With the standard mech build you get 2 armory and 3 bases off 1 fact. Isnt that too greedy? I have a hard time securing my third, I need to wait so long that zerg can just roll me with eco lead. Isnt is better to go 3 fact to secure a third base and then add upgrades? I have hard time scouting tech switches from zerg, I feel like if I have no the perfect unit comp I lose. Not enough thors, die to muta, not enough tanks, die to roach, but I need to be greedy to match zerg greed but if I do I always die. Even infestors that come in and spam infested terrans on my army cause trouble. Pls help.
If you don't scout a third base with your first 2/4 hellions then you can pretty safely assume two base muta. Make sure you're on 4 gas and build a single engineering bay, armory and factory (1) with (2) following after. You can, (and probably should) skip cloak in favour of faster thors/factories unless you got gasses 3/4 pretty fast. For the opening wave of mutas, you shouldn't need anything greater than 2 turrets at each base and 2 thors since there will only be 9/10 mutas to begin. Following that, you might want to get 1 or two more thors to a total of 3/4 and switch into tanks or continue to build mass thors to hit some kind of timing, (if the mutas got literally no damage done). You should be able to take a third base with relative ease once you reach 3/4 thors. Just make sure you've got a couple of turrets up at your third base and are asserting some map control with your hellions i.e. taking watchtowers but not unnecessarily throwing them away.
You shouldn't ever need to actively scout how many mutas are being made unless zergs are going for some kind of sudden mass muta switch, (which, if the zerg is half-way intelligent should be kept hidden). Mutas are an active unit. They have to be used to deal damage otherwise the zerg is opening themselves up to a timing - especially when opening 2 base mutas. As a result you should be able to see their numbers growing as the harassment continues. Continue to build thors and increase turret numbers accordingly. If and when the harassment dies down, scan their lair and see if it's upgrading to hive. If that's the case then the chances are the muta play has finished. If not, you're going to want to prepare for some kind of timing or just mass roach play in general.
Treat thors, and banshees to a lesser extent, as 'keep me safe' units. Build them when you need to. Skipping a banshee to get a raven can also be effective against muta openings although it's not entirely necessary. At all other times you should be focusing on tanks and hellions.
Edit: Infestors that are spamming infested terrans should be focused down with tanks. Ignore the infested terran eggs and just focus on shift-clicking all the infestors that move into siege tank range. Don't let the zerg trade energy for minerals/gas.
On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
I usually go 4 rax. lol.
All kiddings aside if your macro is good, 1 rax FE into 3 rax should allow you to get a pretty fast 3rd unless you are going pure marauders.
Dropping the protoss isnt a must thing. You must understand at points this is almost a mirror match, since this is a deathball vs deathball situation, then you must realize how big of a risk drops are - you can easily lose that dropship dealing no damage and instantly be behind in supply.
Pressuring the protoss however, is a must. But personally I feel this only applies when hes getting a third, and even then if you manage to delay his third for so long that your own is already fully saturated, you really can just wait for a 3/3 200/200 army and just go kill him with the advantage.
Gonna ignore the slightly odd opener, and focus mainly on the 2 bunkers. Placement is justifiable, but the main problem is why you blindly dumped 2 bunkers down. Its a complete waste of money, but since you dont waste scans and play a decently safe build I am going to ignore that too.
Tip - in the future, if you open marine heavy, throw down double reactor along with the engi bay - you have enough gas to do it and you get exactly ~100 gas the time it takes for you to build an eng bay, perfect for an upgrade, gives you money to expand, and sets you up for a strong mid game.
I dislike the fact that you are still blind by the 8th minute mark but that part is justifiable too.
What you are doing wrong is the amount of gas you are getting vs spending - you arent getting gas units, you arent making reactors, you didnt even get the +1 until you pooled 450 gas and still you opted for getting gasses 3 and 4. Wtf man, you got issues with minerals? Keep in mind that terran is mineral heavy, not gas heavy. Your build is almost like a toss build lol
Sharpen up the build+macro, your medevacs are way late, and your supply count easily fell behind the toss without pressure.
~11th you saw his third and reacted decently. Great pick up there, minimal losses etc etc, sucks you could snipe his obs ever, also, wtf is your fact doing out there rofl.
upgrades late by a couple minutes, but holds even against your opponent...
note - your army positioning is really weird during the 18th minute mark. Since you arent pressuring and basically the two of you are having some kind of a standoff, why pick to sit your army far away from your main, and only in reality protecting your 4th, and completely out of position should he decide to just walk into your main?
Tip on death ball vs death ball - army location is highly important. You should be actively scanning and scouting as to where his army is, so you dont get caught off guard and wiped clean. Your factory, scans, sensor tower, and xelnaga tower helps you locate his army position and movements. On this part you neglected quite a large amount, and just watching the replay made my hands itch towards the scan button constantly. Waaay too blind. At the 19:51 part where your army strolled towards the tower completely blind - He couldve killed you right there no problem. Everything, including your vikings and ghosts, were clumped up, and just getting a storm off there wouldve destroyed you right there.
You must always be cautious when moving a deathball army like this, especially when you think just how fragile the bio ball is.
Macro tip - Dont just add barracks only, add more starports too! Personally unless the toss does something funky, I dump down two extra starports once my 4th base is up.
Nuke play - cute. Very cute. WTF MAN YOU COULDVE EMPED EVERYTHING TO OBLIVION, AND YOU CHOSE TO NUKE INSTEAD? When you scanned you saw no obs. Key note to just cloak in and emp everything, stim in with a concave and rape shit.
Funnily enough he decides to walk into the nuke. You almost won right there rofl.
Although I applaud the effort I must tell you to focus on playing normally rather than rely on a really gimmicky skill.
Note - constantly check on your mining scvs in the main and nat after the 20th minute - since mineral patches begin to dry out, it would be wise to start transfering scvs to your new bases, or even suicide them after throwing down some OCs
You also forgot to control your vikings and left them to die.
And then you went back and stood at that fucked up position way out there again. I understand you trying to protect the new bases, but remember, its a PF at a choke point. If the toss is dumb enough to attack there you can just corner him INTO the PF. Instead of trying to guess where his army is, scan more actively, and use your PF. Yes I know you scanned a couple times but its not enough at a late game scenario when you arent getting map control.
Key information from scanning is not just army location, but also knowing his comp. Your scan revealed the location of his main ball, but not the HTs, which at this scenario would be the main concern, and target.
You proceeded to win the first engagement, good job! Go hit his third now! Nope you went home. Hes not going to have that much stuff up after losing all his tech, try attacking (or better yet, use your nukes) his far known expansions after winning an engagement with a bunch of units still left over.
And then your second engagement made no sense whatsoever. You left half your army at home man.
Also tip during engagment against protoss later on - Dont forget to kite! I know its really apm intensive, but after splitting, kiting the groups with heavy zealots on them helps a lot, and also forces the zealots to run into the storms if there are any.
At this point, this is where your lack of extra starports start to hurt - you needed both vikings and medevacs, a lot of them, in a very short amount of time. But you only had one starport. You also forgot to get +3 attack upgrades, something that, when finished, would alert you to start getting BCs (but thats another thing)
And then your last engagement killed you. You walked blindly into his army and basically died by panicking -> unable to stim because ghosts are in ball -> unable to EMP because you havent stimmed yet -> Storm hits, rofl all around.
You lost the game basically because of being caught out of position, but unlike the terrans who like bitching about this fact, you should work towards how to prevent this from happening -
You have a shit mindset when moving your deathball around - You get the part about scanning, knowing where is army is, but you dont utilize that information. From what Im seeing, you scan to confirm that hes still sitting there, and then you proceed to do your own shit. You dont grab that information and think "Oh hes balled up there, i should make a big ass concave and wait for his army to come slap me/go engage him/go snipe his collosi and bait the stalkers to blink/cloak and emp everything because no OBS"
For your type, make sensor towers. If you are sick at trying to find the obs moving with your army, build a couple turrets around. Use your vikings/THAT FUCKING FACTORY IN SPACE to scout his army if you have to.
You also dont seem to know as on how to properly control that big ass scary group of army. - it should always be bio with concave at front line, vikings as the knights charging in from the side to take out the collosi, and ghosts either up front with cloak, or from whatever gay shit angle that helps them EMP the key units. Think of the scenario in a rather medevac term - positioning and scouting information is key, not moving around balled up blind and waiting to be raped against the wall.
On September 21 2012 08:08 Marathi wrote: How do you guys deal with overlords on drop paths in TvZ?
I play a drop heavy style of TvZ and normally I send out double vikings first off my reactored starport to clear the overlords from a few different paths, but once my vikings have died and the overlords replaced and supported by muta and/or corrupters it becomes a real pain knowing that the zerg can read all my drops and any pushes at the front due to creep.
I am only gold level so I haven't quite got the art down of controlling creep spread yet, but any advice is welcome, thanks.
You can't prevent Zergs from having Overlords on common drop routes if they get Mutalisks. Even when they get Infestors your Viking can only clear Overlords in air space, above the ground it is vulnerable to Fungal + ITs. Two Vikings is overkill by the way, only one should do.
On September 21 2012 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Why don't more people use 2rax reactor/tech lab in TvT? It hits before your opponent can get siege mode or a starport up and running, and it seems to not do anything like leave you way behind in tech. Can someone please explain this to me?
It's a coinflippy all-in at best. If you really want to play this, go Stim first, pull most of your SCVs when you move out and hope for the best.
On September 21 2012 08:50 Doko wrote: Any tips on how to scout protoss in the early game? I really don't know what to look for beyond chrono energy, I don't really know the timing of the gasses to determine what they can do before my scv dies or I have to pull him out. And is there a way to identify 6/8 gateway all ins? I keep dying to this with 2 bunkers and scvs on repair standing by. They seem to hit about 30-40 seconds before stim finishes with a standard 1 rax gasless expand.
When scouting a Protoss you want to look at the following things:
- Energy on Nexus. - Number of gases (and look how much gas he mined to know if he took them at the standard timings) + how many Probes are mining. - Number of Pylons (should be 3 shortly before your SCV has to leave). - Pylon placement (Pylons in the corner should make you suspicious).
You will never hold massive Gateway timings with only 2 Bunkers, you need at least 4 to hold them. Scan natural around 7'30, if you saw no gas or if he's just taking them it usually means X gate is coming. You should have sneaked a SCV earlier on the map to rule out fast third.
When the Protoss attacks, focus Sentries—especially those casting Guardian Shield.
On September 22 2012 00:43 Jek wrote: Two questions in regards to TvZ:
1) The medivac cloud ZvT is needing a medivac cloud (I usually end up without around 16) a sign of bad splitting against Infestors (or bad micro in general)? I find it hard to analyze pro matches on this matter as it's varies alot on what they use, I assume it's based on tells they understand and I don't? I like very aggressive heavy bio-based play, but some times it feels like I have too little DPS on the ground with the large cloud of "guardian angels" in the sky.
Basically: How do you tell what you need to put supply into - DPS vs Sustainability? In a nutshell my issue is sometimes I lack damage and other times I lack heal, finding the golden middleway seems hard for me -- is there an "optimal" ratio I should shoot for with heavy bio play in ZvT?
2) Ghosts When should one start to mix in ghosts against infestors or are marauders simply better due to their strength against ultralisks, buildings and tankiness? I have mixed results with either - the times one fails it seems like the other would have been better and vice-versa: boil down to infestor count I assume?
If you play pure bio against Zerg, get at least 10 Medivacs, but no more than 15. With Marines/Tanks, having 6 or 8 should be enough.
You may get Ghosts when you take your fourth, they're too expensive before. If you build Ghosts, you may as well use Nukes too.
On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
Comments about your replay:
- If you don't wall don't build a second Supply Depot before expanding. Your CC is 30 seconds late for nothing. - You're talking, so your build order isn't crisply executed and you don't pay attention to your SCV, which dies without scouting his Nexus. As a result, you make a useless second Bunker too early. - Don't leave one Marine at the Tower, it's useless as a Stalker will inevitably take it back and kill your Marine. - Your Stim is 45 seconds late, make a Tech Lab as soon as you have 25 gas. - Since you have no idea what's going on, you make too many Marines and start banking gas. Your Factory should go down earlier (basically with the 100 gas following Stim). - Why are you taking your gas shortly before the 8' mark? You already have 450 gas banked and nothing to spend it! - Factory is 2 minuts late. You should nearly be starting your first 2 Medivacs by the time you're making your Factory. - You have 700 gas by the 10'30 mark. You really need to pull SCVs out of your Refineries at the natural. - Make your third before Armory and second EB. - Since your Medivacs are so late, Protoss can take an uncontested third early. - Don't try this kind of horrible move with mostly Marines at the 12'15 mark. You won't get the Colossus, Sentries will trap your bio between the cliff and FFs and you will lose everything for some Zealots. Marauders can try to snipe Colossi this way, not Marines. - Don't take your gases right away at the third without thinking, you already have 1k gas banked and you're lacking minerals. - Why do you randomly drop if you don't even watch what happens? - 8 Barracks on three bases is enough while you're maxxing. - You're late on your Ghosts, he already had HTs with Storm ready, you would have simply died had he pushed. - Stop making Marauders by lategame. Make Ghosts instead. Get a second Starport, get PFs in front of your natural, get Turrets at the edges of your base, get Sensor Towers; sacrifice SCVs and don't bank (invest in macro OCs). - Don't split your army in two this way before the main engagement around the 24' mark, it's too difficult to manage. - Don't. Make. Marauders. Really, make 30 Ghosts instead, you will see the difference against Zealots. - See the free hits your Cloaked Ghosts have at the following fight? Now imagine there are 30 of them, and you had enough Vikings to kill Colossi and Observers. This is your goal when you have a good economy, 25-30 Ghosts and 20+ Vikings. - Remake lost Medivacs. You need at least 3 Reactor Starports with that much gas. Get, say, 6 Medivacs.
So, to sum up: work on the execution of your build, particularly your gas income; be more active by midgame to delay Protoss' third; don't split your armies this way before main engagements (you were basically splitting while the Protoss was already attacking you); get additional Starports by lategame; don't make Marauders in lategame, make mass Ghosts instead.
I like all your key points, but not the marauder part. What the hell else is he going to get? Ghost marine viking medevac? marines are jokes later on without support because they die in one shot against everything, and having no marauders = no tank, no slow, and no kiting. You are then relying on the opponent having no OBS and giving you a free reign of the battlefield with cloaked ghost - something that wont last long, and doesnt do enough damage against armored units. Marauders also help power down buildings while under fire, something marines arent as good at doing.
Also
- Don't split your army in two this way before the main engagement around the 24' mark, it's too difficult to manage.
Lol. Im guessing you are a mech player in TvZ and absolutely have no idea how to play bio in that matchup. In my view he didnt split enough, and had zero concaves. Even in late game, TvP is still about kiting. Yes I know it sounds ridiculous to EMP and FF collosi and split and kite at the same time, but you should manage these things seperately. EMPs in late game are not only priority, they should happen BEFORE the engagement, not DURING. Balling the bio up is what kills most terrans so much, and what makes storm+collosi seem so ridiculous.
The order of engagement should go -Concaved army on standby, vikings to side angle, ghosts up front -> Snipe OBS, cloak-> EMP HT->Archons/sentries->everything else -> stim in and engage with bio and vikings -> kite back section of bio taking most amount of zealots, or, kite back section thats most concentrated (juiciest for HT to hit) if there are still HTs with energy. Once zealot count is down -> snipe HTs with ghosts -> snipe archons left over with bio->destroy all collosi left over -> Go for his far expands.
If you want to rely on a very gimmicky strat that involves cloaked units being the generalized unit - play sky terran. You might like it.
On September 22 2012 02:41 Aquila- wrote: Master terran, how do I deal with 2 base muta when going mech? I start making thors, how many should I make? It is so hard to scout how many mutas he keeps making. If I make too many thors he can switch roaches and roll me. Also the mutas shut down my banshees, I open hellion banshee like standard. I also need turrets, how many? How should I take my third when there are mutas? Should I wait till I have 4 thors and 4 tanks? But that is too late, zerg will have a big eco lead. With the standard mech build you get 2 armory and 3 bases off 1 fact. Isnt that too greedy? I have a hard time securing my third, I need to wait so long that zerg can just roll me with eco lead. Isnt is better to go 3 fact to secure a third base and then add upgrades? I have hard time scouting tech switches from zerg, I feel like if I have no the perfect unit comp I lose. Not enough thors, die to muta, not enough tanks, die to roach, but I need to be greedy to match zerg greed but if I do I always die. Even infestors that come in and spam infested terrans on my army cause trouble. Pls help.
If you don't scout a third base with your first 2/4 hellions then you can pretty safely assume two base muta. Make sure you're on 4 gas and build a single engineering bay, armory and factory (1) with (2) following after. You can, (and probably should) skip cloak in favour of faster thors/factories unless you got gasses 3/4 pretty fast. For the opening wave of mutas, you shouldn't need anything greater than 2 turrets at each base and 2 thors since there will only be 9/10 mutas to begin. Following that, you might want to get 1 or two more thors to a total of 3/4 and switch into tanks or continue to build mass thors to hit some kind of timing, (if the mutas got literally no damage done). You should be able to take a third base with relative ease once you reach 3/4 thors. Just make sure you've got a couple of turrets up at your third base and are asserting some map control with your hellions i.e. taking watchtowers but not unnecessarily throwing them away.
You shouldn't ever need to actively scout how many mutas are being made unless zergs are going for some kind of sudden mass muta switch, (which, if the zerg is half-way intelligent should be kept hidden). Mutas are an active unit. They have to be used to deal damage otherwise the zerg is opening themselves up to a timing - especially when opening 2 base mutas. As a result you should be able to see their numbers growing as the harassment continues. Continue to build thors and increase turret numbers accordingly. If and when the harassment dies down, scan their lair and see if it's upgrading to hive. If that's the case then the chances are the muta play has finished. If not, you're going to want to prepare for some kind of timing or just mass roach play in general.
Treat thors, and banshees to a lesser extent, as 'keep me safe' units. Build them when you need to. Skipping a banshee to get a raven can also be effective against muta openings although it's not entirely necessary. At all other times you should be focusing on tanks and hellions.
Edit: Infestors that are spamming infested terrans should be focused down with tanks. Ignore the infested terran eggs and just focus on shift-clicking all the infestors that move into siege tank range. Don't let the zerg trade energy for minerals/gas.
Thanks a lot. Another question I forgot, what if I scan and see that he is going really fast hive into broods, like 11-12 min hive, at that time I am just getting my factories going to get tanks and stuff and already have to switch to defend broods. I tried attacking before the broods but it got demolished by just some roaches and lings, tank are just bad when you only have 2 or 3 of them. Should I just defend and get some more starports up? That would be 2 or 3 starports off of 3 facts. I barely have any ground army at that time, if I just go mass viking he will switch back into roaches and roll me. I noticed when I attack I cannot retreat with mech, I might kill a base or two but lose everything while the zerg can just remax instantly. Is it better to just sit and defend forever and react to what he is doing?
On September 21 2012 08:08 Marathi wrote: How do you guys deal with overlords on drop paths in TvZ?
I play a drop heavy style of TvZ and normally I send out double vikings first off my reactored starport to clear the overlords from a few different paths, but once my vikings have died and the overlords replaced and supported by muta and/or corrupters it becomes a real pain knowing that the zerg can read all my drops and any pushes at the front due to creep.
I am only gold level so I haven't quite got the art down of controlling creep spread yet, but any advice is welcome, thanks.
You can't prevent Zergs from having Overlords on common drop routes if they get Mutalisks. Even when they get Infestors your Viking can only clear Overlords in air space, above the ground it is vulnerable to Fungal + ITs. Two Vikings is overkill by the way, only one should do.
On September 21 2012 08:10 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Why don't more people use 2rax reactor/tech lab in TvT? It hits before your opponent can get siege mode or a starport up and running, and it seems to not do anything like leave you way behind in tech. Can someone please explain this to me?
It's a coinflippy all-in at best. If you really want to play this, go Stim first, pull most of your SCVs when you move out and hope for the best.
On September 21 2012 08:50 Doko wrote: Any tips on how to scout protoss in the early game? I really don't know what to look for beyond chrono energy, I don't really know the timing of the gasses to determine what they can do before my scv dies or I have to pull him out. And is there a way to identify 6/8 gateway all ins? I keep dying to this with 2 bunkers and scvs on repair standing by. They seem to hit about 30-40 seconds before stim finishes with a standard 1 rax gasless expand.
When scouting a Protoss you want to look at the following things:
- Energy on Nexus. - Number of gases (and look how much gas he mined to know if he took them at the standard timings) + how many Probes are mining. - Number of Pylons (should be 3 shortly before your SCV has to leave). - Pylon placement (Pylons in the corner should make you suspicious).
You will never hold massive Gateway timings with only 2 Bunkers, you need at least 4 to hold them. Scan natural around 7'30, if you saw no gas or if he's just taking them it usually means X gate is coming. You should have sneaked a SCV earlier on the map to rule out fast third.
When the Protoss attacks, focus Sentries—especially those casting Guardian Shield.
On September 22 2012 00:43 Jek wrote: Two questions in regards to TvZ:
1) The medivac cloud ZvT is needing a medivac cloud (I usually end up without around 16) a sign of bad splitting against Infestors (or bad micro in general)? I find it hard to analyze pro matches on this matter as it's varies alot on what they use, I assume it's based on tells they understand and I don't? I like very aggressive heavy bio-based play, but some times it feels like I have too little DPS on the ground with the large cloud of "guardian angels" in the sky.
Basically: How do you tell what you need to put supply into - DPS vs Sustainability? In a nutshell my issue is sometimes I lack damage and other times I lack heal, finding the golden middleway seems hard for me -- is there an "optimal" ratio I should shoot for with heavy bio play in ZvT?
2) Ghosts When should one start to mix in ghosts against infestors or are marauders simply better due to their strength against ultralisks, buildings and tankiness? I have mixed results with either - the times one fails it seems like the other would have been better and vice-versa: boil down to infestor count I assume?
If you play pure bio against Zerg, get at least 10 Medivacs, but no more than 15. With Marines/Tanks, having 6 or 8 should be enough.
You may get Ghosts when you take your fourth, they're too expensive before. If you build Ghosts, you may as well use Nukes too.
On September 21 2012 09:47 Patronus wrote: Guys. I'm losing EVERY single game against toss. I was masters, I can play TvZ and TvT at masters level. I'm losing to plat tosses. I do gasless expo, 3rax, into MMM with upgrades starting early. Is there an ideal timing push I'm supposed to be going for? My drops usually go and hit them as they're hitting me, which really just backfires and I get wiped, yet no matter how pro-active I am, I can't avoid the mass colossi or storms, even with viking/cloaked-ghosts
Is there a better build now o.o
Comments about your replay:
- If you don't wall don't build a second Supply Depot before expanding. Your CC is 30 seconds late for nothing. - You're talking, so your build order isn't crisply executed and you don't pay attention to your SCV, which dies without scouting his Nexus. As a result, you make a useless second Bunker too early. - Don't leave one Marine at the Tower, it's useless as a Stalker will inevitably take it back and kill your Marine. - Your Stim is 45 seconds late, make a Tech Lab as soon as you have 25 gas. - Since you have no idea what's going on, you make too many Marines and start banking gas. Your Factory should go down earlier (basically with the 100 gas following Stim). - Why are you taking your gas shortly before the 8' mark? You already have 450 gas banked and nothing to spend it! - Factory is 2 minuts late. You should nearly be starting your first 2 Medivacs by the time you're making your Factory. - You have 700 gas by the 10'30 mark. You really need to pull SCVs out of your Refineries at the natural. - Make your third before Armory and second EB. - Since your Medivacs are so late, Protoss can take an uncontested third early. - Don't try this kind of horrible move with mostly Marines at the 12'15 mark. You won't get the Colossus, Sentries will trap your bio between the cliff and FFs and you will lose everything for some Zealots. Marauders can try to snipe Colossi this way, not Marines. - Don't take your gases right away at the third without thinking, you already have 1k gas banked and you're lacking minerals. - Why do you randomly drop if you don't even watch what happens? - 8 Barracks on three bases is enough while you're maxxing. - You're late on your Ghosts, he already had HTs with Storm ready, you would have simply died had he pushed. - Stop making Marauders by lategame. Make Ghosts instead. Get a second Starport, get PFs in front of your natural, get Turrets at the edges of your base, get Sensor Towers; sacrifice SCVs and don't bank (invest in macro OCs). - Don't split your army in two this way before the main engagement around the 24' mark, it's too difficult to manage. - Don't. Make. Marauders. Really, make 30 Ghosts instead, you will see the difference against Zealots. - See the free hits your Cloaked Ghosts have at the following fight? Now imagine there are 30 of them, and you had enough Vikings to kill Colossi and Observers. This is your goal when you have a good economy, 25-30 Ghosts and 20+ Vikings. - Remake lost Medivacs. You need at least 3 Reactor Starports with that much gas. Get, say, 6 Medivacs.
So, to sum up: work on the execution of your build, particularly your gas income; be more active by midgame to delay Protoss' third; don't split your armies this way before main engagements (you were basically splitting while the Protoss was already attacking you); get additional Starports by lategame; don't make Marauders in lategame, make mass Ghosts instead.
I like all your key points, but not the marauder part. What the hell else is he going to get? Ghost marine viking medevac? marines are jokes later on without support because they die in one shot against everything, and having no marauders = no tank, no slow, and no kiting. You are then relying on the opponent having no OBS and giving you a free reign of the battlefield with cloaked ghost - something that wont last long, and doesnt do enough damage against armored units. Marauders also help power down buildings while under fire, something marines arent as good at doing.
Also
- Don't split your army in two this way before the main engagement around the 24' mark, it's too difficult to manage.
Lol. Im guessing you are a mech player in TvZ and absolutely have no idea how to play bio in that matchup. In my view he didnt split enough, and had zero concaves. Even in late game, TvP is still about kiting. Yes I know it sounds ridiculous to EMP and FF collosi and split and kite at the same time, but you should manage these things seperately. EMPs in late game are not only priority, they should happen BEFORE the engagement, not DURING. Balling the bio up is what kills most terrans so much, and what makes storm+collosi seem so ridiculous.
The order of engagement should go -Concaved army on standby, vikings to side angle, ghosts up front -> Snipe OBS, cloak-> EMP HT->Archons/sentries->everything else -> stim in and engage with bio and vikings -> kite back section of bio taking most amount of zealots, or, kite back section thats most concentrated (juiciest for HT to hit) if there are still HTs with energy. Once zealot count is down -> snipe HTs with ghosts -> snipe archons left over with bio->destroy all collosi left over -> Go for his far expands.
If you want to rely on a very gimmicky strat that involves cloaked units being the generalized unit - play sky terran. You might like it.
Sorry for double post
Can I ask what league are you? The guy you're arguing with is GM and is citing stuff that a lot of top level players do.
On September 22 2012 03:58 padfoota wrote: I like all your key points, but not the marauder part. What the hell else is he going to get? Ghost marine viking medevac?
Yes.
On September 22 2012 03:58 padfoota wrote: marines are jokes later on without support because they die in one shot against everything, and having no marauders = no tank, no slow, and no kiting.
You don't need to slow or kite Zealots when they evaporate to carpet EMPs + 30 Ghosts/40+ Marines firepower. Besides, Ghosts have only 5 less hit points than stimmed Marauders, so it's not like the latter are “supertanky” compared with Ghosts.
On September 22 2012 03:58 padfoota wrote: You are then relying on the opponent having no OBS
No. Seeing Cloaked Ghosts doesn't mean he has what it takes to kill them.
On September 22 2012 03:58 padfoota wrote: Lol. Im guessing you are a mech player in TvZ and absolutely have no idea how to play bio in that matchup.
Could you please tone down your arrogance? I was mid-GM on Europe (by the way what's your league/server exactly?) last two seasons and am again GM this one, I think I definitely have some idea about how the game is played, thank you.
I told him not to split his army the way he did because he basically had half his supply on one screen, and the other half one screen away in one fight at the middle. It's not possible to micro your army efficiently (while EMPing and hitting & running if necessary) when it's not on the same screen. About the last fight, his split was better but he was basically doing it when Protoss was already engaging, so he shouldn't have done it under enemy fire.
On September 22 2012 03:58 padfoota wrote: If you want to rely on a very gimmicky strat that involves cloaked units being the generalized unit - play sky terran. You might like it.
Mass Ghosts is standard in lategame TvP. If you want to write a post that involves dispensable disdain, make sure to at least get your facts straight.
On September 22 2012 02:41 Aquila- wrote: Master terran, how do I deal with 2 base muta when going mech? I start making thors, how many should I make? It is so hard to scout how many mutas he keeps making. If I make too many thors he can switch roaches and roll me. Also the mutas shut down my banshees, I open hellion banshee like standard. I also need turrets, how many? How should I take my third when there are mutas? Should I wait till I have 4 thors and 4 tanks? But that is too late, zerg will have a big eco lead. With the standard mech build you get 2 armory and 3 bases off 1 fact. Isnt that too greedy? I have a hard time securing my third, I need to wait so long that zerg can just roll me with eco lead. Isnt is better to go 3 fact to secure a third base and then add upgrades? I have hard time scouting tech switches from zerg, I feel like if I have no the perfect unit comp I lose. Not enough thors, die to muta, not enough tanks, die to roach, but I need to be greedy to match zerg greed but if I do I always die. Even infestors that come in and spam infested terrans on my army cause trouble. Pls help.
If you don't scout a third base with your first 2/4 hellions then you can pretty safely assume two base muta. Make sure you're on 4 gas and build a single engineering bay, armory and factory (1) with (2) following after. You can, (and probably should) skip cloak in favour of faster thors/factories unless you got gasses 3/4 pretty fast. For the opening wave of mutas, you shouldn't need anything greater than 2 turrets at each base and 2 thors since there will only be 9/10 mutas to begin. Following that, you might want to get 1 or two more thors to a total of 3/4 and switch into tanks or continue to build mass thors to hit some kind of timing, (if the mutas got literally no damage done). You should be able to take a third base with relative ease once you reach 3/4 thors. Just make sure you've got a couple of turrets up at your third base and are asserting some map control with your hellions i.e. taking watchtowers but not unnecessarily throwing them away.
You shouldn't ever need to actively scout how many mutas are being made unless zergs are going for some kind of sudden mass muta switch, (which, if the zerg is half-way intelligent should be kept hidden). Mutas are an active unit. They have to be used to deal damage otherwise the zerg is opening themselves up to a timing - especially when opening 2 base mutas. As a result you should be able to see their numbers growing as the harassment continues. Continue to build thors and increase turret numbers accordingly. If and when the harassment dies down, scan their lair and see if it's upgrading to hive. If that's the case then the chances are the muta play has finished. If not, you're going to want to prepare for some kind of timing or just mass roach play in general.
Treat thors, and banshees to a lesser extent, as 'keep me safe' units. Build them when you need to. Skipping a banshee to get a raven can also be effective against muta openings although it's not entirely necessary. At all other times you should be focusing on tanks and hellions.
Edit: Infestors that are spamming infested terrans should be focused down with tanks. Ignore the infested terran eggs and just focus on shift-clicking all the infestors that move into siege tank range. Don't let the zerg trade energy for minerals/gas.
Thanks a lot. Another question I forgot, what if I scan and see that he is going really fast hive into broods, like 11-12 min hive, at that time I am just getting my factories going to get tanks and stuff and already have to switch to defend broods. I tried attacking before the broods but it got demolished by just some roaches and lings, tank are just bad when you only have 2 or 3 of them. Should I just defend and get some more starports up? That would be 2 or 3 starports off of 3 facts. I barely have any ground army at that time, if I just go mass viking he will switch back into roaches and roll me. I noticed when I attack I cannot retreat with mech, I might kill a base or two but lose everything while the zerg can just remax instantly. Is it better to just sit and defend forever and react to what he is doing?
Focus on denying his 4th base with banshees and hellions - which you should ideally be doing anyway - whilst trying to get your own up. If zerg's go for a super fast hive, 11-12 minutes as you say for example then you want them on three bases - absolutely not four unless you've got your third up early and a 4th on the way. A decent infestor count should be on the way after hive has started so there's a small window where you should be able to successfully deny the fourth base. Don't skip your factories because having a high siege tank count and thors is what is going to keep you safe against ground tech and low broodlord/infestor numbers Start raven production and HSM from the tech lab factory and build more thors than you would ordinarily, (assuming mass tank style is your ordinary play). Try to place 2 starports down for viking production. You've got to remember that zergs wont be able to produce many broodlords or infestors or corrupters if they're only on 6 gas and went for a fast hive. If you hold off the first push they're going for then you'll be in a great position. If they continue to turtle, you already have the tech and economy to deal with a longer game. Essentially in this scenario, you've got to try and stay even or ahead on economy and definitely keeping up on tech - 5 facts (4 tech lab, 1 reactor) 3 starports, (1 tech lab, 2 no addons or you could swap 1 with the factory reactor).
To be honest though, you really don't want to be in a game where zergs can comfortably for an 11-12 minute hive timing. This means keeping your hellions alive, or at least not sacrificing them without economic damage done. If zergs do go for a fast hive timing and you, yourself, are in a strong economic position and haven't lost a lot of unit pointlessly, then you should be able to do economic damage. They should need to go for infestors or mutas before hive because if they play that greedy, they will be losing drones.
On September 22 2012 02:41 Aquila- wrote: Master terran, how do I deal with 2 base muta when going mech? I start making thors, how many should I make? It is so hard to scout how many mutas he keeps making. If I make too many thors he can switch roaches and roll me. Also the mutas shut down my banshees, I open hellion banshee like standard. I also need turrets, how many? How should I take my third when there are mutas? Should I wait till I have 4 thors and 4 tanks? But that is too late, zerg will have a big eco lead. With the standard mech build you get 2 armory and 3 bases off 1 fact. Isnt that too greedy? I have a hard time securing my third, I need to wait so long that zerg can just roll me with eco lead. Isnt is better to go 3 fact to secure a third base and then add upgrades? I have hard time scouting tech switches from zerg, I feel like if I have no the perfect unit comp I lose. Not enough thors, die to muta, not enough tanks, die to roach, but I need to be greedy to match zerg greed but if I do I always die. Even infestors that come in and spam infested terrans on my army cause trouble. Pls help.
If you don't scout a third base with your first 2/4 hellions then you can pretty safely assume two base muta. Make sure you're on 4 gas and build a single engineering bay, armory and factory (1) with (2) following after. You can, (and probably should) skip cloak in favour of faster thors/factories unless you got gasses 3/4 pretty fast. For the opening wave of mutas, you shouldn't need anything greater than 2 turrets at each base and 2 thors since there will only be 9/10 mutas to begin. Following that, you might want to get 1 or two more thors to a total of 3/4 and switch into tanks or continue to build mass thors to hit some kind of timing, (if the mutas got literally no damage done). You should be able to take a third base with relative ease once you reach 3/4 thors. Just make sure you've got a couple of turrets up at your third base and are asserting some map control with your hellions i.e. taking watchtowers but not unnecessarily throwing them away.
You shouldn't ever need to actively scout how many mutas are being made unless zergs are going for some kind of sudden mass muta switch, (which, if the zerg is half-way intelligent should be kept hidden). Mutas are an active unit. They have to be used to deal damage otherwise the zerg is opening themselves up to a timing - especially when opening 2 base mutas. As a result you should be able to see their numbers growing as the harassment continues. Continue to build thors and increase turret numbers accordingly. If and when the harassment dies down, scan their lair and see if it's upgrading to hive. If that's the case then the chances are the muta play has finished. If not, you're going to want to prepare for some kind of timing or just mass roach play in general.
Treat thors, and banshees to a lesser extent, as 'keep me safe' units. Build them when you need to. Skipping a banshee to get a raven can also be effective against muta openings although it's not entirely necessary. At all other times you should be focusing on tanks and hellions.
Edit: Infestors that are spamming infested terrans should be focused down with tanks. Ignore the infested terran eggs and just focus on shift-clicking all the infestors that move into siege tank range. Don't let the zerg trade energy for minerals/gas.
Thanks a lot. Another question I forgot, what if I scan and see that he is going really fast hive into broods, like 11-12 min hive, at that time I am just getting my factories going to get tanks and stuff and already have to switch to defend broods. I tried attacking before the broods but it got demolished by just some roaches and lings, tank are just bad when you only have 2 or 3 of them. Should I just defend and get some more starports up? That would be 2 or 3 starports off of 3 facts. I barely have any ground army at that time, if I just go mass viking he will switch back into roaches and roll me. I noticed when I attack I cannot retreat with mech, I might kill a base or two but lose everything while the zerg can just remax instantly. Is it better to just sit and defend forever and react to what he is doing?
Focus on denying his 4th base with banshees and hellions - which you should ideally be doing anyway - whilst trying to get your own up. If zerg's go for a super fast hive, 11-12 minutes as you say for example then you want them on three bases - absolutely not four unless you've got your third up early and a 4th on the way. A decent infestor count should be on the way after hive has started so there's a small window where you should be able to successfully deny the fourth base. Don't skip your factories because having a high siege tank count and thors is what is going to keep you safe against ground tech and low broodlord/infestor numbers Start raven production and HSM from the tech lab factory and build more thors than you would ordinarily, (assuming mass tank style is your ordinary play). Try to place 2 starports down for viking production. You've got to remember that zergs wont be able to produce many broodlords or infestors or corrupters if they're only on 6 gas and went for a fast hive. If you hold off the first push they're going for then you'll be in a great position. If they continue to turtle, you already have the tech and economy to deal with a longer game. Essentially in this scenario, you've got to try and stay even or ahead on economy and definitely keeping up on tech - 5 facts (4 tech lab, 1 reactor) 3 starports, (1 tech lab, 2 no addons or you could swap 1 with the factory reactor).
To be honest though, you really don't want to be in a game where zergs can comfortably for an 11-12 minute hive timing. This means keeping your hellions alive, or at least not sacrificing them without economic damage done. If zergs do go for a fast hive timing and you, yourself, are in a strong economic position and haven't lost a lot of unit pointlessly, then you should be able to do economic damage. They should need to go for infestors or mutas before hive because if they play that greedy, they will be losing drones.
I just watched Mvp against Vortix on Ohana from IEM, he did exactly what you said but he stayed on 3 factories the entire game and getting the starports up. There is no way I can afford to produce off 5 facts and 2-3 starport and getting double upgrades when I am on 3 bases and about to get the fourth. I guess I should just harass more with hellions, I can usually kill 20 drones but that doesnt really seem to hurt zerg at all >.> Thanks for help!
I've simply stopped 1v1'ing with terran. I cant win with them. Terran just seems so weak because its so dependent on bio.
What are good openers these days? still 1rax fe? No matter what I do, terran just seems weak. 5000 games and i'm gold. Broods, storm, colossus, fungal, banes... they're all designed to destroy bio so easily, and terran just doesnt seem to have the ability to punish back as strong. I dont know what to do anymore with this race, especially when zerg gets 3 bases for free so fast. Its sad to see Warhound removed. We need a damage dealing unit.
On September 22 2012 11:05 DwindleFlip wrote: I've simply stopped 1v1'ing with terran. I cant win with them. Terran just seems so weak because its so dependent on bio.
What are good openers these days? still 1rax fe? No matter what I do, terran just seems weak. 5000 games and i'm gold. Broods, storm, colossus, fungal, banes... they're all designed to destroy bio so easily, and terran just doesnt seem to have the ability to punish back as strong. I dont know what to do anymore with this race, especially when zerg gets 3 bases for free so fast. Its sad to see Warhound removed. We need a damage dealing unit.
1 rax FE is always viable in every single matchup, you should be able to hold pretty much anything that is thrown at you. What you do afterwards will differ depending on what match up it is
TvP - 1 rax FE into 3 rax stim and fast medivacs TvZ - 1 rax FE into hellion banshee and quick third TvT - 1 rax FE into 3 rax CS or 1 rax FE into 1/1/1
EPT
