EPTI'm talking about the massive amount of helion/banshee harassment that he displayed in Game 1 vs Stephano, then went very heavy mech.
Thanks!
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Procify
United States52 Posts
I'm talking about the massive amount of helion/banshee harassment that he displayed in Game 1 vs Stephano, then went very heavy mech. Thanks! | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
Try to watch the MVP replays from IEM, there's a replay pack lying around somewhere in this thread iirc. The opening is something like Rax, CC, gas, gas, depot factory + reactor(on rax), swap and make hellions starport + techlab(on rax) 3rd CC swap starport on techlab, banshee, cloak from there add two armories and two techlab factories, MVP gets 2 thors out fast, then starts siege mode + blueflame + tank production. When you take your third add two more factories (one techlab, one reactor). Then of course dont forget to scout/react of course - adding a bunker early if the zerg went gas first or an ebay somewhere if you smell mutas can be useful. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 17 2012 07:38 Sirois wrote: How do you deal with really fast storm? Like 10-12 minutes in the game...seems like when I push my army just shatters. diamond league by the way. Don't attack in a head-on fight a Protoss having Storm unless (a) you have Ghosts, preferably with EMPs ready or (b) you are confident in your dodge Storms while outnumbering him (situational). On September 17 2012 08:52 scarper65 wrote: Another thing you can do is throw down 5-6 barracks before starting your factory, and just run up him ramp and kill him. This is pretty allin-ish though so you might not like it. As pointed out this is irrelevant. This is something that would be done blindly and it's a terrible strategy anyway. On September 17 2012 11:11 SC2John wrote: In addition, you also generally want to be going marauder heavy in the midgame. The tankier marauders can take storms and colossus blasts a little easier while splitting. In addition, you're setting yourself up for a ghost transition by making a lot of techlab barracks. (Should be like 3 TL/2 reactors on 5rax). You certainly don't want to be Marauder-heavy against Templar tech as they always come with Charge Zealots, and Marauders are terrible against Zealots. You want lots of Marines with some Ghosts and a handful of Marauders. On September 17 2012 11:18 SC2John wrote: I would say that banshees are great against ultras too, but it's better to spend 6 supply in a thor than banshees after about 5-6 banshees. In addition, you free up your techlab starports to start raven production. How are Banshees “great” against Ultralisks? Unupgraded Banshees deal 12x2 damage while Ultralisks end up with 6 armor, this means unupgraded Banshees tickle them with 6x2. As pointed out by someone, Banshees are better to deal with Infestors, forcing them to use energy to kill them individually; obviously they will still add fire if you retained your initial Banshees but supply-wise Tanks or Thors are much better against Ultralisk-based compositions. | ||
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BongChambers
Canada591 Posts
Long ass update man. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On September 17 2012 19:34 TheDwf wrote: Don't attack in a head-on fight a Protoss having Storm unless (a) you have Ghosts, preferably with EMPs ready or (b) you are confident in your dodge Storms while outnumbering him (situational). As pointed out this is irrelevant. This is something that would be done blindly and it's a terrible strategy anyway. You certainly don't want to be Marauder-heavy against Templar tech as they always come with Charge Zealots, and Marauders are terrible against Zealots. You want lots of Marines with some Ghosts and a handful of Marauders. How are Banshees “great” against Ultralisks? Unupgraded Banshees deal 12x2 damage while Ultralisks end up with 6 armor, this means unupgraded Banshees tickle them with 6x2. As pointed out by someone, Banshees are better to deal with Infestors, forcing them to use energy to kill them individually; obviously they will still add fire if you retained your initial Banshees but supply-wise Tanks or Thors are much better against Ultralisk-based compositions. its not just about damage output though, having 5/6 banshees against an ultralisking player means everytime he goes for an engagement or pokes he takes several volleys of banshee fire, if you have no banshees he can wander around the map fearlessly, the banshees are as important for their map control as for their ability in a straight up fight. Also they are invaluable in basetrade scenarios where you can use just banshees to mop up your base (eventually) letting you keep your ground army together. but i do agree that its often more important to make ravens as ravens will still be very useful when he tech switches out of ultras into brood corrupter. if you think he has the economy to support a big tech switch when his ultras die then you have to use the techlabbed starports for ravens instead. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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scarper65
1560 Posts
On September 17 2012 08:52 scarper65 wrote: Another thing you can do is throw down 5-6 barracks before starting your factory, and just run up him ramp and kill him. This is pretty allin-ish though so you might not like it. As pointed out this is irrelevant. This is something that would be done blindly and it's a terrible strategy anyway. I'm sorry that this works very often at high masters. It is very terrible. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On September 18 2012 06:59 scarper65 wrote: As pointed out this is irrelevant. This is something that would be done blindly and it's a terrible strategy anyway. I'm sorry that this works very often at high masters. It is very terrible. The guy you're arguing with is mid GM. He's probably right. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On September 17 2012 12:57 Procify wrote: Can someone explain Lucifron's style that he was using frequently during dreamhack? I'm talking about the massive amount of helion/banshee harassment that he displayed in Game 1 vs Stephano, then went very heavy mech. Thanks! He did a TvZ build. The build opens up as a standard gasless one rax expand. After he gets his expo down, he makes two gases before his second supply depot. He then goes for cloaked banshee. This build is cool because it transitions easily into bio or mech. What Lucifron did in particular is that he kept his factory on his reactor and his starport on his techlab and continued to make banshees and hellions throughout the game. Usually if you are transitioning into bio, you stop at two banshees and around 6-8 hellions and swap the building out for baracks. Lucifon simply kept the buildings on and added more factories. Since you are going mech, you want to get your third and fourth gas earlier then usual, right after you put down your third and fourth factory as you need gas to support tank and thor production. Once you have your additional factories down, you want to add two armories for upgrades. Lucifron defended on three base until he was maxed and attacked stephanos fourth. Remember, what was amazing about lucifrons mechplay in that game is that he went straight for thors and expanded to his third at the same time( which is extremely greedy and dangerous). He could do this because he was constantly doing hellion run bys which kept stephanos army at his base. Usually what is done by meching terrans is tanks come first as it is easier to defend your third. But the gist of his opener is one rax expo into double gases, into cloacked banshee while continuing hellion production ultimately transitioning into mech | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On September 18 2012 02:31 halpimcat wrote: I've been really interested in the hellion/banshee with even more banshees that MVP popularized a couple weeks ago but I've only seen it in action once. Can anyone point me towards replays besides the one time he used it at IEM? Is the build map/specific, and does it have any weaknesses/BO losses in particular? The build youre referring to is just a TvZ build. The build is good on every map but is susceptible to roach bane all ins. In terms of BO loses, if the zerg plays the old rush to muta before the 10 min mark, you pretty much just die as you delay your marine production and your engy bays are delayed as you usually go cloak with that build. If you wana see that build, watch Forgg stream. He exclusively uses that build in his TvZ. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8230 Posts
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BOJINKINS
Canada13 Posts
On September 18 2012 08:12 geokilla wrote: No replay required for this question... How does Terran deal with 6 Colossi + stalker army? I massed up Vikings + Bio + Medivacs. Boom, dead in 2s. With bio the easiest things to remember is upgrades, concave, anything to reduce splash damage, flank with 5 marauders to kill colossi, or make a lot of bunkers and attack with the Vikings until you kill 2-3 colossi then attack with your entire army or wait for them to attack you. If you do these all in a battle then you should have no problem dealing with this unit composition, unless your so behind on upgrades that no matter how good you micro your marines do 3 damage. | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
On September 18 2012 08:21 BOJINKINS wrote: With bio the easiest things to remember is upgrades, concave, anything to reduce splash damage, flank with 5 marauders to kill colossi, or make a lot of bunkers and attack with the Vikings until you kill 2-3 colossi then attack with your entire army or wait for them to attack you. If you do these all in a battle then you should have no problem dealing with this unit composition, unless your so behind on upgrades that no matter how good you micro your marines do 3 damage. ah the good old stalker colossus balls good times. You wanna make max 14 vikings with upgrades and u want a mainly marauder heave army with good spreading and collect ex wins. These days tho mass zealot armies are used to more marines are a must. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
As pointed out this is irrelevant. This is something that would be done blindly and it's a terrible strategy anyway. I'm sorry that this works very often at high masters. It is very terrible. Its not irrelevant and terrible at all, 5 rax before tech is pretty viable. It creates a strong window for marine pushes at around 7-8 minutes against tech heavy builds (which are pretty usual nowadays). And you can follow it up by adding a third quick gases and double upgrades. Its also pretty good at holding off blink / or 6-7 gate all-ins, its pretty weak against colossi all-ins, cause you delay your marauder/viking tech quite a lot. Polt used that opening quite a bit and there's also a day9 daily about it. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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rkffhk
474 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 17 2012 08:52 scarper65 wrote: Another thing you can do is throw down 5-6 barracks before starting your factory, and just run up him ramp and kill him. This is pretty allin-ish though so you might not like it. I'm sorry that this works very often at high masters. It is very terrible. You said “run up” so I assumed you were talking about 5 rax Marines/Marauders with Stim in which case yes, it's a terrible build, regardless of whether it “works very often at High masters” or not. If you were talking about gasless 5-6 rax mass Marines, it's okayish at best on certain spawns on certain maps, but it's basically a huge gamble relying on your opponent playing unsafe. In both cases, these builds have to be done before you know which tech path the Protoss is heading for, so they can't be advised to someone having troubles with HTs. Your piece of advice made as much sense as answering “just proxy 11/11 him,” really. On September 18 2012 08:12 geokilla wrote: No replay required for this question... How does Terran deal with 6 Colossi + stalker army? I massed up Vikings + Bio + Medivacs. Boom, dead in 2s. Mass Marauders and 20+ Vikings (don't be afraid to make that many Vikings, a Protoss can't recover from losing such an expensive Stalker/Colossus army). You want a Colossus to die at each volley at the beginning of the fight so that his firepower quickly decreases. On September 18 2012 08:23 Wrathsc2 wrote: ah the good old stalker colossus balls good times. You wanna make max 14 vikings with upgrades and u want a mainly marauder heave army with good spreading and collect ex wins. These days tho mass zealot armies are used to more marines are a must. Why “max 14 Vikings”? 14 Vikings barely one-shot Colossi (as they should have one upgrade advantage) and with 25+ Stalkers as support you will quickly fall below the Viking count needed to one-shot them. There's no point trying to get away with as few Vikings as you can against pure Stalkers/Colossi as there's no tech switch threat; if you crush him badly (which should happen with the proper composition) in the main engagement he cannot recover and lose. On September 18 2012 09:47 Nyxisto wrote: Its not irrelevant and terrible at all, 5 rax before tech is pretty viable. It creates a strong window for marine pushes at around 7-8 minutes against tech heavy builds (which are pretty usual nowadays). And you can follow it up by adding a third quick gases and double upgrades. Its also pretty good at holding off blink / or 6-7 gate all-ins, its pretty weak against colossi all-ins, cause you delay your marauder/viking tech quite a lot. Already explained why it was irrelevant for the guy who had problems with HTs. Gasless 5 rax is only half-viable, I used to play this a lot and even on favourable spawns Protoss should have no problems holding this as long as they have 3 gates; they see you moving out with their Stalker(s) parked at the front of your natural, so they have time to get 2 rounds of warp-ins. Even if you kill some Sentries you give the Protoss free reign the next few minuts since Stim and your Medivacs are so much delayed. | ||
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DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On September 18 2012 20:19 DKR wrote: What are the best TvX builds for the Ladder? I know aggression below masters is very important and I'd love to find some builds which give me some quick aggressive wins or at least a good set up for the mid game. this is my favourite tvp fast win build as for tvt there is a marine hellion elevator build, i think there are different variations, but correct me if im wrong, one is you go 12 rax, 13 gas, factory on 100 gas, reactor on rax with next gas, starport when factor finishes (no add-on on factory). make medivac out of starport whilst pumping marine hellion. you should have 8 marines and 3 hellions (i think) when the medivac pops out. tvz it is kind of hard to successfully play aggressively since the last patch as queens are just so good. 2 rax can still be good though, check out this daily http://day9.tv/d/Day9/tvz-from-terran-perspective, proxy rax is far from all-in and is pretty aggressive as for the tvp 6 rax in another post, i feel if the protoss is going fast colossi and he isn't cutting corners its just an auto-lose unless the protoss makes micro mistakes. unless you do significant damage versus fast colossi i have never seen the counter push held i dont think. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 19 2012 10:29 ThePianoDentist wrote: as for tvt there is a marine hellion elevator build, i think there are different variations, but correct me if im wrong, one is you go 12 rax, 13 gas, factory on 100 gas, reactor on rax with next gas, starport when factor finishes (no add-on on factory). make medivac out of starport whilst pumping marine hellion. you should have 8 marines and 3 hellions (i think) when the medivac pops out. Yes, 8 or 9 Marines (depending on whether you made your Reactor after 2 or 3 Marines) and you rally the fourth Hellion—which comes 30 seconds after the Medivac—near your opponent's base so you can drop 8 Marines and 4 Hellions. You can go with only 3 but having a fourth Hellion is generally worth the little 10-15 seconds wait. | ||
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