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On June 14 2012 18:54 fraGGer wrote:
What is the best way to punish a super greedy zerg? Scenario usually that they build 4+ queens and/or a couple of spines at their nat, very few lings then take a 3rd base around the 6 min mark. Alternatively I successfully eng bay block their natural so they take their 3rd as their first expo then take out the e bay with the first few lings and expand again. Either way they're on 3 base super early and I find if I don't punish it v quickly I'm dead heading into the mid-game. I've tried going for a hellion maurader push but unless this is semi-all in (pull SCVs) it just gets overwhelmed. If I take my own quick 3rd the z macro mechanic leaves me too far behind.
EU diamond in case that matters.
Try using Demuslim's hellion / marine attack. It does wonders against builds that take early thirds. Alternatively FE in to raven banshee can deny a third base as the raven can use the PDD which negates spore crawlers and queens.
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Thanks. How do the timings line up with the raven banshee build though? I'd have thought you couldn't hit before about 10 mins by which time z has been pumping lings or whatever for 4+ mins off 3 base and will just overrun you knowing you've got nothing at home to defend?
Will look into the Demus build though, I always thought mauraders would be better vs the queens and spines but I guess they die too quickly to lings so better to mass up marines. Unless he goes fast roach as well of course...
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Thanks for the tips guys, but I didn't know that Insane comp cheats by getting extra minerals. That would explain why it has so many units suddenly, and even 3-4 bunkers doesn't stop it when backed by one colossus. The vikings are never out in time either. I realized the comp was maphacking by its perfect unit composition to counter what I have, but I didn't know it mineral hacked too. Maybe I'll just stop playing insane comp.
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Two questions:
1--> How do I fend off blink stalker/immortal play with bio. My marouders always get focus fired by immortals, (and marines are bad against blink stalkers).
2--> I play mech vs zerg, how do I stop him from just going mass roach and dropping everything in my main? Short of a base trade.
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Does anybody have a good build/strategy for TvT? I hate the MU and always end up cheesing which irritates me because i want a good and solid play, not something that relies on my opponent not spotting my cheese.
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On June 15 2012 00:45 M7Jagger wrote:
Does anybody have a good build/strategy for TvT? I hate the MU and always end up cheesing which irritates me because i want a good and solid play, not something that relies on my opponent not spotting my cheese.
1 rax expand into either marine tanks + vikings or into marine maruders and mavidacks. Works fine. And is solid.
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On June 15 2012 00:45 M7Jagger wrote:
Does anybody have a good build/strategy for TvT? I hate the MU and always end up cheesing which irritates me because i want a good and solid play, not something that relies on my opponent not spotting my cheese.
There's quite a few non-cheesy TvT builds out there at this point. If you wanna go as straight-up macro as possible the 1 Rax FE is solid and if you practice it enough, you can hold off any of the T cheeses out there. I'd recommend this as it sets for just about any transition that you're looking for.
As for other builds I see Ts that often go cloak banshee openings into expands. It's not entirely cheese as you just want the banshee to get some damage done and some map control behind which you expand. It can be pretty effective against Ts that are too greedy and don't save scans as you will get 10-15 SCV kills or if you're planning on some timing you can kill off marines.
Most TvT builds are pretty solid but the match-up often revolves around marine/tank positioning battles or a classic mech vs. bio, mobility vs. position kind of match. It depends on your style really.
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On June 15 2012 00:23 Corsair212 wrote:
Two questions:
1--> How do I fend off blink stalker/immortal play with bio. My marouders always get focus fired by immortals, (and marines are bad against blink stalkers).
2--> I play mech vs zerg, how do I stop him from just going mass roach and dropping everything in my main? Short of a base trade.
1. It's a matter of seeing it coming and having more units. Get a group of units to focus down their immortals and having medivacs out works wonders against blink stalkers. You need to simply have enough to overpower them. This is sort of a vague question as there is a lot of build-up to these situations. Are you talking 1 base stalker/immortal or are you talking 2 base timings? If you could expand I think we'd be able to help you out more. Honestly though marauders tear through stalkers so simply having enough to kill stalkers while having enough marines to kill the immortals is all it is.
2. Best way to stop someone from mass dropping on you is turret rings and sensor towers. Wouldn't hurt to have 2-3 patrolling vikings as well. It's not a matter of preventing him from doing it, but more one of seeing it coming and reacting appropriately. If you catch a hint of him possibly going ventral sacs, sensor tower + turret ring should be the immediate response. Seeing it early and preparing for it is the best answer. Getting those tanks sieged up in your main away from his drop location is crucial. It's all about reaction.
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how to beat this 2 base collosus all in that is extremely popular on the ladder recently? 1 robo 6 warpgates no ups 3 collosi with range and a metric TON of stalkers.
24 stalkers 3 collosi 1 immortal 7 sentries at 16:00, last 3 protoss i played did a variation of this.
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Hi fellow Terrans.
Just got beaten in TvT by a 7marine/4hellion drop.....I kinda forgot to put my depots on the perimeter, but even if I did this, teh result would've been the same I think. So, I opened 1 rax FE, and he did this. Maybe what I shouldve done is put a unit just outside his base, so I can see if he moves out? What else can I do? When I scan, I saw starport and I made Ebay for turrets but he was not going Banshees, he was going for that 7rine/4hellion drop...
Is good scouting all I need vs this?
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Can anyone post a general build order or build timings for bio tvz?
I've just been making it up as I go along really, 1 barracks FE into 3 rax then double gas into stim and double upgrades.
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On June 15 2012 00:56 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
how to beat this 2 base collosus all in that is extremely popular on the ladder recently? 1 robo 6 warpgates no ups 3 collosi with range and a metric TON of stalkers.
24 stalkers 3 collosi 1 immortal 7 sentries at 16:00, last 3 protoss i played did a variation of this.
Best way to beat a build like this is to see it early. If he's got 3 collosi + range by the 16:00 it's likely he put up his robo bay around 10:00 or 11:00 so you need to drop a scan and scout his composition. By now you should have starports set-up and you'll need to start massing vikings. Against 3 colossus I'd say you want at least 8-10 vikings. Also, if you see he hasn't taken a 3rd then you know it's an all-in. Start setting up bunkers to delay the colossus while you try to get a good angle with your vikings.
Second aspect of this is engaging at the right places and the right angles. You don't want to engage this army near choke points as force fields will destroy you. Let him come to your bunker line/wall and get the advantage of being able to repair and things like that. Make sure your vikings are floating somewhere safe from the range of the stalkers. It's all about getting that solid position/concave and having you vikings kill all the colossus before they can do serious damage.
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On June 15 2012 00:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi fellow Terrans.
Just got beaten in TvT by a 7marine/4hellion drop.....I kinda forgot to put my depots on the perimeter, but even if I did this, teh result would've been the same I think. So, I opened 1 rax FE, and he did this. Maybe what I shouldve done is put a unit just outside his base, so I can see if he moves out? What else can I do? When I scan, I saw starport and I made Ebay for turrets but he was not going Banshees, he was going for that 7rine/4hellion drop...
Is good scouting all I need vs this?
Good scouting is really the only counter to drops. You need to know that he's not expanding. Once you see that you'll know it's either some kind of all-in at the front of your base or an all-in drop like he did in this example. It's smart to keep your units positioned all around your main. Keep units in the attack path of the enemy so you can see if he's coming across the map but leave the majority of your army in your main to prepare for drops. The key here is to take out the medivacs before they can drop. Simply having your marines on the perimeter of your base to catch this is all it needs. You don't even need turrets really.
EDIT: And one more thing. When facing hellions it's important to make sure your marines are not clumped/lined up. This will allow them to survive a lot longer and deal the DPS you need to take out all of the enemy units.
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On June 15 2012 00:23 Corsair212 wrote:
1--> How do I fend off blink stalker/immortal play with bio. My marouders always get focus fired by immortals, (and marines are bad against blink stalkers).
The best answer mis to just have a lot of units. For both allins the Protoss have to take 2 Gas. If you just go for 4 Rax and then teching up you will have enough units to hold of Blinkstalker/Immortals or Voidray allins.
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When do I scan my opponent's base for each matchup? I know vs Terran, it's around 6:30. But I don't vs Zerg and toss.
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On June 15 2012 03:49 OneBaseKing wrote:
When do I scan my opponent's base for each matchup? I know vs Terran, it's around 6:30. But I don't vs Zerg and toss.
Depends on what you scout, and if you intend to enter his base with any units/a flying building. You only have to scan a terran at 6:30 if you scouted gas, if you didn't you won't find much of interest(unless you're really scared of delayed banshees). Vs zerg I scan occasionally(not every game) around 11-12 min to try to see if he's going mutasor infestors, and then around 14-15 to try to find his hive tech. Vs protoss I don't scan at all. If I scout 2 gases I just wait for him to reveal his tech(I check for an expo at around 5 min with my scouting scv), and check for proxy pylons/stargate tech around my base. I also build a missile turret at around 6-6:30 to be safe against void rays/dts. If I see 1 gas I know it's a 1gate FE, or sometimes 4-gate(suspect this if he has a lot of chrono boost saved up). To see whether he goes templar or colo I poke at his base when I have 2 medivacs(around 10-11 min). I also use my factory to scout the outskirts of his base/if he has a 3rd.
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On June 15 2012 05:10 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 03:49 OneBaseKing wrote:
When do I scan my opponent's base for each matchup? I know vs Terran, it's around 6:30. But I don't vs Zerg and toss.
Depends on what you scout, and if you intend to enter his base with any units/a flying building. You only have to scan a terran at 6:30 if you scouted gas, if you didn't you won't find much of interest(unless you're really scared of delayed banshees). Vs zerg I scan occasionally(not every game) around 11-12 min to try to see if he's going mutasor infestors, and then around 14-15 to try to find his hive tech. Vs protoss I don't scan at all. If I scout 2 gases I just wait for him to reveal his tech(I check for an expo at around 5 min with my scouting scv), and check for proxy pylons/stargate tech around my base. I also build a missile turret at around 6-6:30 to be safe against void rays/dts. If I see 1 gas I know it's a 1gate FE, or sometimes 4-gate(suspect this if he has a lot of chrono boost saved up). To see whether he goes templar or colo I poke at his base when I have 2 medivacs(around 10-11 min). I also use my factory to scout the outskirts of his base/if he has a 3rd.
I think it is a bit risky not to scout vs Protoss in more detail...If they go for a 1 gate FE into 7 or 8 gates and you don't scout it, you are dead...
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On June 14 2012 19:49 fraGGer wrote:
Thanks. How do the timings line up with the raven banshee build though? I'd have thought you couldn't hit before about 10 mins by which time z has been pumping lings or whatever for 4+ mins off 3 base and will just overrun you knowing you've got nothing at home to defend?
Will look into the Demus build though, I always thought mauraders would be better vs the queens and spines but I guess they die too quickly to lings so better to mass up marines. Unless he goes fast roach as well of course...
I forgot to mention one thing. You'll be pumping hellions out if you do chose to go up to raven and banshee, the hellions are vital for slowing down the creep spread, and doing some damage to the queens so that when the banshees show up they can make short work of them. You should also be walling off to prevent ling counter attacks, as long as you have a solid wall the lings won't do anything to your mineral line. Plus you can pull back the hellions to help defend at home. You'll have marines behind the walls too.
The transition is a bit difficult, but the good news is that you already have a lot of gas that can be used for upgrades, You should have stim on the way or done by the time the banshee harass is done, and you have a factory + starport. I usually have two raxes pumping marines before the harass, one reactor and tech lab. Once the harass is done, drop a CC (If you haven't already), and add 4-5 more raxes, a second factory, grab your gasses at your nat, and throw down double engy bay. When the harass is done, you'll have two fully saturated bases, its just a matter of building more buildings to really turn up the heat on the zerg.
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On June 15 2012 05:10 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 03:49 OneBaseKing wrote:
When do I scan my opponent's base for each matchup? I know vs Terran, it's around 6:30. But I don't vs Zerg and toss.
Depends on what you scout, and if you intend to enter his base with any units/a flying building. You only have to scan a terran at 6:30 if you scouted gas, if you didn't you won't find much of interest(unless you're really scared of delayed banshees). Vs zerg I scan occasionally(not every game) around 11-12 min to try to see if he's going mutasor infestors, and then around 14-15 to try to find his hive tech. Vs protoss I don't scan at all. If I scout 2 gases I just wait for him to reveal his tech(I check for an expo at around 5 min with my scouting scv), and check for proxy pylons/stargate tech around my base. I also build a missile turret at around 6-6:30 to be safe against void rays/dts. If I see 1 gas I know it's a 1gate FE, or sometimes 4-gate(suspect this if he has a lot of chrono boost saved up). To see whether he goes templar or colo I poke at his base when I have 2 medivacs(around 10-11 min). I also use my factory to scout the outskirts of his base/if he has a 3rd.
Thanks for a great answer! I've been trying to get answers in this thread but they've been shitty.
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In TvT I like to go straight bio play. When I do i'm not sure how I should play against tanks. I have the problem knowing I cant charge into them but then I feel like im being slow pushed back into my demise. Any tips or pointers?
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EPT
