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On June 13 2012 22:45 kranten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 10:07 goFLiP wrote:
It's amazing how broken roach bling ling timing push is. Obviously nothing happens and meanwhile Z's get free wins. Feels like TvZ when WoL came out except now Terran is getting fucked. Well it's not broken but it's really strong, 6 out of 7 zergs I've faced today used that allin. It's so frustrating since I never even go fast 3rd. I had a 88% win ratio in TvZ (about 30 games) since may 1st but today I went 1-6 t.t
I personally think it's broken but it's kind of a long debate. It's crazy how popular and effective it is. Z used to be my strongest matchup a few seasons ago but now it's just crazy how weak I am at it. I used to do a lot of hellion play and the queen buff just destroyed my favorite unit. The buff to queens and the popularity of this build just joined together to make TvZ my worst matchup in a long time (the other worst one was tank viking vs tank viking TvT).
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Masters terran here. Up until now I've been improvizing my matchups and I decided to get some good pro build orders. Could anyone link/tell me what are the best tvz and tvt build orders at the current meta game? So many guides but not sure whats hot and whats pot.
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Its impossible to memorize exect build orders from gsl imho.
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Read through the last few pages. Does anyone have any pressure-oriented FE builds? I've been using 1RaxFE Stim/CS/+1 Attack Marine/Hellion timing but I feel I leave the Zerg alone to drone for too long.
I used to use 2Rax Pressure FE sometimes but since ladder maps have increased in size, I feel the build is obsolete.
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On June 14 2012 05:02 Pillage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:30 zezamer wrote:
So does anyone have a +50% win ratio TvZ build to share ? I've been doing a marine hellion push that hits around the 10 minute mark. This was originally posted by IAmJeffrey. - 10 Depot - 12/13 rax, your choice - 16/17 Orbital, constant Marine production - 18 CC - 19 Double Gas - 24 Factory - 26 Orbital - 27 Barracks x 2 - When factory is 75% complete, tech lab on rax start stim immediately - Engineering Bay right after that, start plus 1 attack upon completion. - Put a second tech lab on the rax right away and start combat shields research - You'll be able to start your third around the 9 min mark. - Produce Marines and hellions constantly, you can harass with the hellions but DO NOT LOSE THEM. They are very important to the push. This push shits all over early third builds from zerg. The hellion - upgraded marine combo eats zerglings for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You can easily kill a whole round of zerglings, plenty of drones, and some queen with this push, which hurts the zerg very badly, and gives you plenty of time to get your third established.
Hey mate,
Jeffrey\Demuslim style push actually only needs 1 gas... thats the beauty of it
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So, I've started practicing my macro, and I learned my biggest problem and the biggest reason I'm stuck in Platinum: I kept getting supply blocked and not noticing.
So I worked on not getting supply blocked, and the first game when I managed to not get supply blocked at all throughout the game, I had soooo much more stuff than the other guy. So I dedicated myself to never getting supply blocked whenever I play, and now I'm taking on Diamonds and winning convincingly.
That said, now I need to learn how to spend my money efficiently since I'm not getting supply blocked as hard. In TvZ, I'm going the standard 1-Rax FE into Marine/Tank for a 2-base timing push to snipe Zerg's 3rd base, then macroing up until 2/2 for timing attack.
On three bases, how many Raxes should I have? I notice my barracks timings are off because I don't quite know the magic number. Furthermore can anyone tell me the Tech Lab/Reactor ratio?
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On June 14 2012 09:34 bwodie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 05:02 Pillage wrote:On June 14 2012 03:30 zezamer wrote:
So does anyone have a +50% win ratio TvZ build to share ? I've been doing a marine hellion push that hits around the 10 minute mark. This was originally posted by IAmJeffrey. - 10 Depot - 12/13 rax, your choice - 16/17 Orbital, constant Marine production - 18 CC - 19 Double Gas - 24 Factory - 26 Orbital - 27 Barracks x 2 - When factory is 75% complete, tech lab on rax start stim immediately - Engineering Bay right after that, start plus 1 attack upon completion. - Put a second tech lab on the rax right away and start combat shields research - You'll be able to start your third around the 9 min mark. - Produce Marines and hellions constantly, you can harass with the hellions but DO NOT LOSE THEM. They are very important to the push. This push shits all over early third builds from zerg. The hellion - upgraded marine combo eats zerglings for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You can easily kill a whole round of zerglings, plenty of drones, and some queen with this push, which hurts the zerg very badly, and gives you plenty of time to get your third established. Hey mate, Jeffrey\Demuslim style push actually only needs 1 gas... thats the beauty of it
Yeah that's true, I like having the extra gas to tech up a little faster and get the armory / starport / second engy bay up right away. My macro isn't the best so I like having the extra gas right away to spend on tech. Whatever works for you though.
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On June 14 2012 09:31 Eps wrote:
Read through the last few pages. Does anyone have any pressure-oriented FE builds? I've been using 1RaxFE Stim/CS/+1 Attack Marine/Hellion timing but I feel I leave the Zerg alone to drone for too long.
I used to use 2Rax Pressure FE sometimes but since ladder maps have increased in size, I feel the build is obsolete.
Have you tried poking with the first three or four marines? I do that and it works well. Usually you can kill an overlord hovering around by his natural, or you can kill a queen if he really fucks up. Either way, it forces lings which is awesome for you in the early game. If you do kill a queen it's makes the later marine hellion push much more scary, as he either has missed a whole inject or his creep spread will not be good at all if he still chooses to go for the early third.
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On June 14 2012 10:00 Pillage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:31 Eps wrote:
Read through the last few pages. Does anyone have any pressure-oriented FE builds? I've been using 1RaxFE Stim/CS/+1 Attack Marine/Hellion timing but I feel I leave the Zerg alone to drone for too long.
I used to use 2Rax Pressure FE sometimes but since ladder maps have increased in size, I feel the build is obsolete. Have you tried poking with the first three or four marines? I do that and it works well. Usually you can kill an overlord hovering around by his natural, or you can kill a queen if he really fucks up. Either way, it forces lings which is awesome for you in the early game. If you do kill a queen it's makes the later marine hellion push much more scary, as he either has missed a whole inject or his creep spread will not be good at all if he still chooses to go for the early third.
I'll try that out. Usually I score a couple of drone kills with 1 Marine + 1SCV and units rallied. But after the initial poke dies out and a batch of Lings out, they usually counter and that ends the trades until I get Hellions out.
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On June 13 2012 21:42 kranten wrote:
What can I to do deny creep spread? They have 4 queens so I can't get anything done with hellions.
Also what's a good build that's safe against a roach/ling/bling attack? I got promoted to diamond and that allin is the only thing zergs are doing.
storkman just did a build order guide thats designed to deny this exact all in, this is the link:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344458
i like it a lot because i prefer tanks to helions. good luck fellow terran
edit: its also such a good guide it shows how to transition into mech or biomech (pick your poison)
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I'm so fucking tired of being unable to engage a zerg muta ling bling army cost effectively.
This is such fucking bullshit. I'm so close to smashing my comptuer to fucking pieces. Fuck this
User was warned for this post
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Canada8157 Posts
On June 14 2012 11:44 Divergence wrote:
I'm so fucking tired of being unable to engage a zerg muta ling bling army cost effectively.
This is such fucking bullshit. I'm so close to smashing my comptuer to fucking pieces. Fuck this
So basically you are asking how to engage muta/ling/bling cost effectively?
Here are some tips:
-Do not engage on creep
-Try not to keep all of your marines clumped
-Don't have all of your siege tanks unsieged at the same time; leap frog the tanks
-Focus fire banelings with your siege tanks (shift-queue a whole bunch of them and try to shift-queue banelings that are grouped)
Hope this helped
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In TvT, I like to open 1 rax FE into 3 rax, but I have gotten crushed twice by the same hellion drop + 5 reaper attack. If you scout this with your 6:20 scan, what is the correct response? This attack hits at about 7:10.
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On June 14 2012 16:09 alphafuzard wrote:
In TvT, I like to open 1 rax FE into 3 rax, but I have gotten crushed twice by the same hellion drop + 5 reaper attack. If you scout this with your 6:20 scan, what is the correct response? This attack hits at about 7:10.
To be honest if you scan it that late you're in a lot of trouble. Usually you need either seige tanks or marauders (preferably with concussive shells) to stop the attack, as the hellion reaper combo rips marines to shreds. You'll want to drop tech labs on the raxes and you should have a factory by 6:30 if you're going for biomech or mech. The thing is that you need armored units, and you'll prolly lose some scvs, but if you hold of the push he's way behind because you have two OC's producing scvs as well as double mule. You should be substantially ahead as long as you don't lose too many scvs.
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I used to be a brood war player, recently got SC2 and just messing around with the game to get a feel for the game. I started using terran and just playing against insane Protoss comp. I've noticed that the protoss will always go for some variation of two gate into colossus or 1 gate robo into more gateways or some other really all-in 1 base play. The problem is, trying to learn the current metagame, I'm doing the 15 supply Orbital command build and trying to play as if the comp were a real opponent, so I purposely blind myself to the fact the comp will always go 1 base play and try to react after my scv scouts it out.
I know you guys will tell me that the computer is retarded and nobody does 1 base play, but since I can't beat it anyway, I want to know how to beat it and understand why protoss doesn't do 1 base play.
Some questions:
1)What is the overall philosophy on how to react to this kind of play? Mass marines first into expand? Tech? No matter what I do it seems like there's a million units at my door really fast including a colossus and I'm not sure what I'm suppsoed to be doing. One time I cheated and just went fast gas before finding the opponent and rushed to tech, including vikings, and held it off really easily. However, if I start the game off with 15/16 supply OC, my gas is really late and I can't tech (note I'm playing on 4 player maps and often my scv scouts comp last). Massing bio units doesn't seem to work.
2) Is it ever possible to 15 OC, 1 rax gasless expand against a 1 base toss, cut corners, and make enough of the right kind of units to survive? If so, what am I supposed to do exactly?
For a brood war analogy, if protoss went 2 rax gasless gate (zealot rush) against my terran, I would simply use my wall-in, and tech to vultures with speed and mines, and then expand. Is there something like that which hard counters protoss 1 base builds but which can branch out from a normal 15 OC build?
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On June 14 2012 16:09 alphafuzard wrote:
In TvT, I like to open 1 rax FE into 3 rax, but I have gotten crushed twice by the same hellion drop + 5 reaper attack. If you scout this with your 6:20 scan, what is the correct response? This attack hits at about 7:10.
If you scou this comming just place down Bunkers at your Mineral lines. I had the same problems as you, but bunkers are really your only answer to it when doing a 1 rax fe. After i knew this i never lost to this push again.
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On June 14 2012 16:41 ahole-surprise wrote:
I used to be a brood war player, recently got SC2 and just messing around with the game to get a feel for the game. I started using terran and just playing against insane Protoss comp. I've noticed that the protoss will always go for some variation of two gate into colossus or 1 gate robo into more gateways or some other really all-in 1 base play. The problem is, trying to learn the current metagame, I'm doing the 15 supply Orbital command build and trying to play as if the comp were a real opponent, so I purposely blind myself to the fact the comp will always go 1 base play and try to react after my scv scouts it out.
I know you guys will tell me that the computer is retarded and nobody does 1 base play, but since I can't beat it anyway, I want to know how to beat it and understand why protoss doesn't do 1 base play.
Some questions:
1)What is the overall philosophy on how to react to this kind of play? Mass marines first into expand? Tech? No matter what I do it seems like there's a million units at my door really fast including a colossus and I'm not sure what I'm suppsoed to be doing. One time I cheated and just went fast gas before finding the opponent and rushed to tech, including vikings, and held it off really easily. However, if I start the game off with 15/16 supply OC, my gas is really late and I can't tech (note I'm playing on 4 player maps and often my scv scouts comp last). Massing bio units doesn't seem to work.
2) Is it ever possible to 15 OC, 1 rax gasless expand against a 1 base toss, cut corners, and make enough of the right kind of units to survive? If so, what am I supposed to do exactly?
For a brood war analogy, if protoss went 2 rax gasless gate (zealot rush) against my terran, I would simply use my wall-in, and tech to vultures with speed and mines, and then expand. Is there something like that which hard counters protoss 1 base builds but which can branch out from a normal 15 OC build?
I should have to note that the insane ____ comps all cheat as in they get extra minerals (i.e. like they are mining from the gold when they are actually on blue minerals)... and maphacks (but this isn't really important as BW's ai's do that too)
as for your question the equiv. the protoss would really have these choices as one base plays (imo) (no matter the effectiveness)
- cannon rush
- proxy 2gate
- 4gate
- 3gate robo (kinda 2 variants -> 1base collosi ... or 1 base immortal allin or so)
- 3gate stargate (vr all-in)
- 3gate blink allin (robo+blink)
- dt rush (4gate or 3gate variants, there's also one that kinda uses a robo for warpins)
might be missing some but.. hmm
as for how a 1rax cc holds them off...
well if you smell one base play (or scout) there's nothing stopping you from not getting gas (which makes you have less units to hold it off - teching and all)... like 1rax fe into 4rax (which lets you get gas iirc to tech somewhat better) or 1rax fe into 5rax...
(ofc this isn't talking about cannon rush or proxy 2gate)
iirc vs collosi you might have to get like 3-4 bunkers and tech+turtle for vikings and make them though
dt rush -> ebay and save scans, I think there's a ghost timing you can hit vs this though, but I forget.
at least from what I can remember
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On June 14 2012 16:41 ahole-surprise wrote:
Some questions:
1)What is the overall philosophy on how to react to this kind of play? Mass marines first into expand? Tech? No matter what I do it seems like there's a million units at my door really fast including a colossus and I'm not sure what I'm suppsoed to be doing. One time I cheated and just went fast gas before finding the opponent and rushed to tech, including vikings, and held it off really easily. However, if I start the game off with 15/16 supply OC, my gas is really late and I can't tech (note I'm playing on 4 player maps and often my scv scouts comp last). Massing bio units doesn't seem to work.
Typically as a Terran vs Protoss, your strategy will be to go for a 1 rax, 15 OC, 20 CC, add on 2 more rax and take both of your main gasses, then make a tech lab, get stimpack, and tech to starport.
On June 14 2012 16:41 ahole-surprise wrote:
2) Is it ever possible to 15 OC, 1 rax gasless expand against a 1 base toss, cut corners, and make enough of the right kind of units to survive? If so, what am I supposed to do exactly?
For a brood war analogy, if protoss went 2 rax gasless gate (zealot rush) against my terran, I would simply use my wall-in, and tech to vultures with speed and mines, and then expand. Is there something like that which hard counters protoss 1 base builds but which can branch out from a normal 15 OC build?
The brood war analogy to a 1 base colossus attack would be a 10/15 goon+range rush rather than a zealot rush-- the proper response to which requires playing defensively and teching up while he pounds away at your wall, getting out a tank to stop the dragoon attack. In Sc2 to react to this play, you need ~3 bunkers at your front to stall until your vikings get out.
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What is the best way to punish a super greedy zerg? Scenario usually that they build 4+ queens and/or a couple of spines at their nat, very few lings then take a 3rd base around the 6 min mark. Alternatively I successfully eng bay block their natural so they take their 3rd as their first expo then take out the e bay with the first few lings and expand again. Either way they're on 3 base super early and I find if I don't punish it v quickly I'm dead heading into the mid-game. I've tried going for a hellion maurader push but unless this is semi-all in (pull SCVs) it just gets overwhelmed. If I take my own quick 3rd the z macro mechanic leaves me too far behind.
EU diamond in case that matters.
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EPT
