EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 156
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Slate
Singapore112 Posts
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Slate
Singapore112 Posts
On February 20 2012 23:13 Clazziquai10 wrote: Its a TvT match. You open barracks->gas->OC. You scout your opponent with your 13th scv and you find that he went 14 CC. What would be the response against this? 1. 2 Rax 2. Quick Marine tank push 3. Reaper Hellion drop 4. 7 marine 3 hellion 1 medivac 5. Immediately cut all gas mining and expo twice 6. Others (Please state exact response) Cloak banshee, expand, marine-tank push/contain. Depends on the map. CC first on maps like taldarim altar is really easily punished with a cloak banshee into marine/tank push, especially if you siege the lowground near the nat. Banshees should be targeting marines since good players will have turrets up so you can't kill SCVs. Reducing the marine count then going quick siege tanks after your expansion to siege the nat works very well on a lot of maps. Some koreans even pull a couple of scvs for bunkers. Or you can go reactor marine expand and pull a couple of scvs off gas, and go down an ultra marine-heavy style a la thorzain vs puma from the day9 daily. The faster reactor should allow you to match or even exceed his marine count reasonably well, and then you're basically on even footing with the other T. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
I wonder, when Ts do hellion drops, why is it that sometimes they bring the medivac to the enemy's mineral line, then do carpet bomb (dropping units out of the medivac while it is moving)?? This way, 1 hellion comes out of the medivac, and straight away will attack any nearby probes. As a result, the Protoss/Zerg will realize that his workers are being roasted, and therefore pull them quickly. In the end, you do very little damage because at the first alert of his workers being roasted, he pulls away all his workers. Compare this with dropping in the fog of war, unload ALL FOUR hellions, and THEN roast the probes. This way, you will have done many damage to the workers before he finally realizes and pulls his workers away. So basically with carpet bomb, you notify him of your presence while roasting with 1 hellion as opposed to 4. Of course the latter is more damaging? Do you understand this? I hope you do. Let me know if it is not clear. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 21 2012 17:52 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Hello I wonder, when Ts do hellion drops, why is it that sometimes they bring the medivac to the enemy's mineral line, then do carpet bomb (dropping units out of the medivac while it is moving)?? This way, 1 hellion comes out of the medivac, and straight away will attack any nearby probes. As a result, the Protoss/Zerg will realize that his workers are being roasted, and therefore pull them quickly. In the end, you do very little damage because at the first alert of his workers being roasted, he pulls away all his workers. Compare this with dropping in the fog of war, unload ALL FOUR hellions, and THEN roast the probes. This way, you will have done many damage to the workers before he finally realizes and pulls his workers away. So basically with carpet bomb, you notify him of your presence while roasting with 1 hellion as opposed to 4. Of course the latter is more damaging? Do you understand this? I hope you do. Let me know if it is not clear. If there IS fog, it's better of course to unload in the fog then run into his mineral line and bring the pain. Against most canny opponents, however, they've spread pylons, ovies, depots, etc, so there IS no fog in their main. They will react instantly to seeing the drop incoming, and you need to deal damage as quickly as possible, which means unloading and shooting asap rather than waiting till all the boots are on the ground. You'll see this done with bio drops as well. If you get the chance to, it's fine to unload first of course. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 21 2012 18:00 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: So, the fact that there is no fog in the main, that is the only reason they carpet bomb? If there is fog then of course it is much better to unload all 4 right? Well, it CAN be. For example, if there's a way to approach the mineral line by air, but approaching it by ground within the main you'll be spotted earlier (such as in shattered temple), you almost always want to drop right on top of his min line with your hellions. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Because people nowadays spread pylons etc, we have to do damage ASAP, by carpet bombing hellions instead of unloading all 4, am I correct? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
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hersenen
Belize176 Posts
1. Going gasless 1rax expand into 3rax (like ThorZain) 2. Going gasless 1rax expand and then adding double gas and getting a factory+starport 3. Going 1-1-1 without going banshees 4. Going 1-1-1 cloaked banshee yourself Because I've seen so many different ways at high level play from getting 1viking + 1 raven to going for an engi bay and building turrets to getting vikings without ravens and just saving scans to just saving scans and using marines.... | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On February 21 2012 19:55 hersenen wrote: I see a lot of different ways of dealing with cloaked banshees in TvT (standard 1-1-1 cloaked banshee build), which way is the best provided you're either: 1. Going gasless 1rax expand into 3rax (like ThorZain) 2. Going gasless 1rax expand and then adding double gas and getting a factory+starport 3. Going 1-1-1 without going banshees 4. Going 1-1-1 cloaked banshee yourself Because I've seen so many different ways at high level play from getting 1viking + 1 raven to going for an engi bay and building turrets to getting vikings without ravens and just saving scans to just saving scans and using marines.... I would also like to see some pro's and cons to the different methods used to fight off a Cloakshee rush. I imagine that having a Raven does give you a better economy, but delays any good tech like Siege tanks with Siege mode. On the other side, "wasting" scans is a shame, could have been a Mule. Also, Turrets, I don't like them because you need to have a good placement, not only in your base but also at your ramp and maybe in your natural. That's 300 minerals, in a way worse than a Raven >< Ravens can also harass by dropping Turrets in the enemy mineral line and scam out of there! | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
1. Open this replay 2. Go to 23.10 note the upgrades, army value (no I did not use some replay hack my army value was actually that much superiour), supply, apm expansions 3. Watch the fight, compare amount of micro please tell me who microed better. 4. And please convince me to play a macro style TvP If you want to watch the replay, I know I did a random build order and weird pressure, but my point is that I should be able to win when the situation is exactly as it was in 23:10. In fact I should just be able to a move. Fucking way more army value and 60 more overall supply. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
2. done 3. alright 4. Bojas, play a macro style TvP. You lost this game due to both macro and micro. You have only 10 barracks on 4 base, 23 minutes into the game. You haven't started 3/3. You only have 1 starport. You're banking 3k and aren't trying to set up production for a remax. You engage a protoss army with 3 archons and 800 HT energy with only 150 Ghost energy. Your entire army was on one control group, and due to your unbelivably low ghost count, you couldn't get off any decent EMPs. What did you think would happen? You got outplayed--- you were sorely lacking on tech units and forced an engagement from which you had multiple chances to retreat. You weren't producing during the engagement, and you made like 4 ghosts all game. TvP is a difficult matchup, but you definitely had the macro and micro resources at your disposal to win that fight, and didn't exercise them. You can't legitimately claim you're macroing well when you're banking 3k and don't have the infrastructure to spend it. | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
I know I´m not any good but I was way better then him. The moment I lost I had way more supply. That´s my point. - | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
It might even have been possible to win with just A-moving if you had substantially better economic management, but I think an important step as a terran player is going to be learning how to engage and learning to make more tech units against Protoss tech. He had like 1500 gas of Templar tech and you had 3 ghosts, 2 of which had a single EMP each. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Check out this game: Protoss is ahead on bases almost the entire game, has a good deathball and still loses. If you as terran make a good number of ghosts and vikings and micro correctly you should not lose. Yeah it's difficult to micro, but you seem to rate yourself in this respect, just make sure you have the right units to micro with. | ||
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:44 Willzzz wrote: Bojas, stop talking about how you are more "skilled" than your opponent, that mindset won't help you to improve. If he won, it's because he understands the game better than you. Check out this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eLnS4HJPbM&feature=BFa&list=PL0A81546B83DF6F78&lf=plpp_video Protoss is ahead on bases almost the entire game, has a good deathball and still loses. If you as terran make a good number of ghosts and vikings and micro correctly you should not lose. Yeah it's difficult to micro, but you seem to rate yourself in this respect, just make sure you have the right units to micro with. "make a good number of ghosts and vikings and micro correctly you should not lose" That's about as helpful as ramming a squirrel up his ass Then again, why bother even replying to someone with that mentality? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On February 22 2012 06:01 Huggerz wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 22 2012 04:44 Willzzz wrote: Bojas, stop talking about how you are more "skilled" than your opponent, that mindset won't help you to improve. If he won, it's because he understands the game better than you. Check out this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eLnS4HJPbM&feature=BFa&list=PL0A81546B83DF6F78&lf=plpp_video Protoss is ahead on bases almost the entire game, has a good deathball and still loses. If you as terran make a good number of ghosts and vikings and micro correctly you should not lose. Yeah it's difficult to micro, but you seem to rate yourself in this respect, just make sure you have the right units to micro with. "make a good number of ghosts and vikings and micro correctly you should not lose" That's about as helpful as ramming a squirrel up his ass Then again, why bother even replying to someone with that mentality? Honestly the problem with Bojas was that he had two EMPs to fight against 3 archons and 4 full-energy HTs. Willzzz's advice is fairly reasonable. Not as good as my sterling advice, but reasonable. Did you watch the replay? | ||
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krooked
376 Posts
http://drop.sc/117057 He goes nexus first, I go 1raxFE into 4rax. I push him and kill some probes and zealots, nothing too big. I hold off his colossus push and it goes into a macro game. I get good engagements but zealot warpins prove too strong. I feel I didn't really make any major mistakes. Do I have a wrong mindset? Is there any concrete things I can do in situations like this (lategame 3/3 etc) to actually win the game? I feel as if I can't really push him because of "defenders advantage" AKA warpins. Any high level player who would be able to analyze my replay and give some good constructive feedback? Would appreciate it loads, as I feel I can see my TvP evolving rapidly, but I am still unable to actually win games against protoss. This is in Diamond FYI. | ||
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