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How do you deal with zerg doing heavy roach aggression off of 2 bases?
Sometimes the scenario is like this: I reactor hellion expand and the zerg goes hatch first. Occasionally my scv checks his extractor which has taken more than 100 gas, yet no drones are pulled off, so in these cases I smell aggression coming.
But usually by the time my 3rd and 4th hellions come out, several roaches are halfway across the map already. My 2nd OC is still in my base, so I'm stuck on one base with maybe some bunkers on top of my ramp, but usually the zerg busts my wall and kills several scvs.
By the time the attack's over, the zerg has droned up massively and taken another base, and all I can do is counter-allin.
I know I should bunker up, but how can a bunker with 2 marines and a marauder hold off 8+ roaches + several speedlings +more roaches to come?
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On January 07 2012 14:53 Kid-Fox wrote:
How do you deal with zerg doing heavy roach aggression off of 2 bases?
Sometimes the scenario is like this: I reactor hellion expand and the zerg goes hatch first. Occasionally my scv checks his extractor which has taken more than 100 gas, yet no drones are pulled off, so in these cases I smell aggression coming.
But usually by the time my 3rd and 4th hellions come out, several roaches are halfway across the map already. My 2nd OC is still in my base, so I'm stuck on one base with maybe some bunkers on top of my ramp, but usually the zerg busts my wall and kills several scvs.
By the time the attack's over, the zerg has droned up massively and taken another base, and all I can do is counter-allin.
I know I should bunker up, but how can a bunker with 2 marines and a marauder hold off 8+ roaches + several speedlings +more roaches to come?
This is pretty simple actually. When reactor hellion expanding your first two hellions should always scout the roaches popping if he went hatch first, so from the moment the roaches hatch (unless he was sneaky and made them up the ramp, then from the moment they walk out from the nat), you will know the roaches are coming. This leaves you without enough time to throw up a bunker or two depending on how many roaches he has. Don't be too hasty with the bunkers though, some zergs just like to make 4 roaches to counter the first 4 hellions.
So basically you'll see him moving out with roaches, throw up two bunkers if you suspect it being a serious attack, evaluate if it's better to swap the fact and rax again to get out a siege tank and two marines at a time or if it's better to keep pumping hellions and marauders (depends on ling to roach ratio). Will be an ezpz hold from there.
Oh and also, have 3-4 scvs already at the ramp to repair and bring more if needed.
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Do I continue to pressure protoss with 12-15 marines after a 1 rax fe -> 4 rax if he:
1) Gets an early second gas
2) Double gateway pressure into expand
Thanks!
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What do i do when i play a TvT and they are just turtling and flooding all their base with seige tanks and turrets and i can't do anything?
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He does this because he want to get a huge tech advantage and a big army to crush you in a blow. You should be able to just stay ahead 1 Base aggainst him and tech like crazy. Surround his base with tanks and turrets, so that he can´t move out.
The you should scna to see what kind of tech he is going for and then investing a lot to get either the counter tech or being ahead of him in this tech. Expample if you see your opponent has a huge viking count, he will probally go to battlecruiser and upgrades, so you should produce vikings from a lot of starports and double upgrade them from your armory.
Did you read this thread already?
If you have a good position it increases your army value dramatically and you should be able to spend your ressources in the other categories to get more advantages.
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On January 07 2012 20:00 mokumoku wrote:
What do i do when i play a TvT and they are just turtling and flooding all their base with seige tanks and turrets and i can't do anything?
Take the map and make alot of production facilities. Control the map, throw up turrets/sensor towers wherever you can and take map control with vikings so they'll have an extremely hard time getting up any kind of good position
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On January 07 2012 20:00 mokumoku wrote:
What do i do when i play a TvT and they are just turtling and flooding all their base with seige tanks and turrets and i can't do anything?
Take more expansions than him, play a lot greedier, get a better economy and then crush him with the perfect unit composition. If you don't like those long TvTs you might want to consider playing a more aggressive style TvT with early pressure and some sort of mid game timing attack.
Also, air armies are really good late game. Battlecruisers, Banshees, Vikings and Ravens. Sometimes the player that gets air dominance and Battlecruisers or a few Banshees outs first outright wins because you can steal position so easily then.
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What's people's opinions on reaper expand in TvP (as well as TvZ)?
TvZ -> I've seen some pros in korea doing it on stream -- and it's pretty effective (switching between reactor hellions and reapers as their openings -> like polt and taeja)
TvP -> I see it's "used" for mech/sky, but... what do you guys think about it working for standard/bio play too?
a teammate says that it doesn't really work too well in TvP as he doesn't think it's too useful because he says you can just use an scv to scout (the stalker kills the reaper easily? I guess? idk) - I presented the idea that showing the protoss an early gas can mean either 2rax (r,t or t,r) or 1/1/1 technically and doesn't necessarily mean a reaper expand/etc
From experience from playing around with it with mid plat players (on a smurf while I'm semi slumping -- not the point in this post and/or when I'm testing around builds), I can have a bunker with 1-2 marines in a bunker (or about to finish bunker) while/before he's poking with a stalker, and during that's happening/while he's walking to my base, my reaper gets into their main and can do damage to the probe line... (which then technically gives me map control/he can't spread himself so thin, as he has to make the stalker go back into his base/etc to prevent their probe line from disappearing imo?)
[then again that teammate used to be a protoss (dia a few seasons back), and switched to Z]
he also said that it doesn't work (when I presented the idea) (or "shouldn't" ?) in TvZ as he can make 10 lings and kill it, but then conceded about the idea because he hasn't really played against the style and can't really comment too well on it, but my opinion as a Z and T player is that if Z has to make 10 lings instead of 5 drones that's good for the terran still (especially since 1 reaper is 50/50, and 3 reapers are 150/150, and 10 lings/5 drones is 500/0)
[he does like reaper expand in TvT however... then again so do I]
Any other comments from better players than me's opinions?
[I guess I shouldn't make asking posts too much at 4am in the morning]
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On January 07 2012 21:19 zhurai wrote:
What's people's opinions on reaper expand in TvP (as well as TvZ)?
TvZ -> I've seen some pros in korea doing it on stream -- and it's pretty effective (switching between reactor hellions and reapers as their openings -> like polt and taeja)
TvP -> I see it's "used" for mech/sky, but... what do you guys think about it working for standard/bio play too?
a teammate says that it doesn't really work too well in TvP as he doesn't think it's too useful because he says you can just use an scv to scout (the stalker kills the reaper easily? I guess? idk) - I presented the idea that showing the protoss an early gas can mean either 2rax (r,t or t,r) or 1/1/1 technically and doesn't necessarily mean a reaper expand/etc
From experience from playing around with it with mid plat players (on a smurf while I'm semi slumping -- not the point in this post and/or when I'm testing around builds), I can have a bunker with 1-2 marines in a bunker (or about to finish bunker) while/before he's poking with a stalker, and during that's happening/while he's walking to my base, my reaper gets into their main and can do damage to the probe line... (which then technically gives me map control/he can't spread himself so thin, as he has to make the stalker go back into his base/etc to prevent their probe line from disappearing imo?)
[then again that teammate used to be a protoss (dia a few seasons back), and switched to Z]
he also said that it doesn't work (when I presented the idea) (or "shouldn't" ?) in TvZ as he can make 10 lings and kill it, but then conceded about the idea because he hasn't really played against the style and can't really comment too well on it, but my opinion as a Z and T player is that if Z has to make 10 lings instead of 5 drones that's good for the terran still (especially since 1 reaper is 50/50, and 3 reapers are 150/150, and 10 lings/5 drones is 500/0)
[he does like reaper expand in TvT however... then again so do I]
Any other comments from better players than me's opinions?
[I guess I shouldn't make asking posts too much at 4am in the morning]
Reaper expanding is doable and pretty good in both match ups, you should see it less as a whole build and more as a different way of 1rax FE'ing though. The Reaper isn't too significant, what is more important is how you follow it up. Against Protoss you only want the reaper to scout, good protosses will shut it down before it can do any damage to the probe line. Scout what he's doing and then hold the watch towers with it.
Against zergs there are two types of reaper expands, those that are meant to do early damage with a bunker and those that are meant to scout and then keep map control until speed is up. This is also good because it forces the zerg to make more than 4 lings in the beginning if he wants towers.
The most important thing is to never lose the reaper (unless you are doing bunker pressure), because it serves a lot of purposes throughout the game. Generally it will go something like: Poke into their base to see what the other player is doing -> if you can somehow safely do damage to his economy, do it -> get out and hold watch towers -> when he gets units that can take the watch towers, use the reaper to scout third or fourth timing, hopefully you can be really annoying and kill the worker that is coming to expand.
All variants are fine, but it's really more important to instead focus on how you follow it up. It's a nice alternative to no gas FE though since just one unit will do that many things for you.
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looking for guides or replays on how play 2base biotank tvp. I remember seeing something on 2base marine/tank allins, but I'm looking for something with a 3base transition, either to pure bio or maybe bio+thor? (I think I remember a discussion on this a loong time ago).
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On January 08 2012 00:47 dementrio wrote:
looking for guides or replays on how play 2base biotank tvp. I remember seeing something on 2base marine/tank allins, but I'm looking for something with a 3base transition, either to pure bio or maybe bio+thor? (I think I remember a discussion on this a loong time ago).
http://drop.sc/80681
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=243824
http://drop.sc/72645 best version I'd say, vs a 1300 last season protoss streamer.
Reaper FE into 3 rax 1 fac 1 port, marine tank marauder medic push. Hit's at 11-12 minute, latest. 3 tanks, 2 medic, 7-8 marauders, and about 30 marines with a third started at 12 min at your base.
What's people's opinions on reaper expand in TvP (as well as TvZ)?
TvZ -> I've seen some pros in korea doing it on stream -- and it's pretty effective (switching between reactor hellions and reapers as their openings -> like polt and taeja)
TvP -> I see it's "used" for mech/sky, but... what do you guys think about it working for standard/bio play too?
a teammate says that it doesn't really work too well in TvP as he doesn't think it's too useful because he says you can just use an scv to scout (the stalker kills the reaper easily? I guess? idk) - I presented the idea that showing the protoss an early gas can mean either 2rax (r,t or t,r) or 1/1/1 technically and doesn't necessarily mean a reaper expand/etc
From experience from playing around with it with mid plat players (on a smurf while I'm semi slumping -- not the point in this post and/or when I'm testing around builds), I can have a bunker with 1-2 marines in a bunker (or about to finish bunker) while/before he's poking with a stalker, and during that's happening/while he's walking to my base, my reaper gets into their main and can do damage to the probe line... (which then technically gives me map control/he can't spread himself so thin, as he has to make the stalker go back into his base/etc to prevent their probe line from disappearing imo?)
[then again that teammate used to be a protoss (dia a few seasons back), and switched to Z]
he also said that it doesn't work (when I presented the idea) (or "shouldn't" ?) in TvZ as he can make 10 lings and kill it, but then conceded about the idea because he hasn't really played against the style and can't really comment too well on it, but my opinion as a Z and T player is that if Z has to make 10 lings instead of 5 drones that's good for the terran still (especially since 1 reaper is 50/50, and 3 reapers are 150/150, and 10 lings/5 drones is 500/0)
[he does like reaper expand in TvT however... then again so do I]
Any other comments from better players than me's opinions?
[I guess I shouldn't make asking posts too much at 4am in the morning]
Reaper FE is my go to TvP build. I go reaper FE into 3 rax tank push (above), or into cut gas, fast 5 rax pressure.
Here's a slew of replays TvP that all open reaper FE. The reaper forces the transitions. If they FE you can play as normal, if not, you get 5 rax 2nd gas and get medics asap.
http://drop.sc/74177 ~650masters protoss atm
http://drop.sc/74178 ~560 masters protoss
http://drop.sc/75317 ~450 masters protoss
http://drop.sc/75312 ~700 masters protoss
But, back to the question.
Reaper FE goes into bio in TvP SO fucking well. You get an amazing scout if you time the SCV + reaper together. You can 100% see natural if they expo. If they poke, you get at least 2-3 probe kills.
I always wall off with reaper FE, because zeal/stalker poke hits as you have 1 marine, and 1 reaper. So you just pull a few SCVs to repair, he cannot get in. Not a chance. Your 5 rax are done, and you get a marauder and a few marines out. Just repair, and pull back. Then, get shells, drop expo at natural, and push with 5 rax pressure.
When I reaper FE vs toss, and 5 rax, I expo a third at 9 minute, and it feels 100% safe most times.
he also said that it doesn't work (when I presented the idea) (or "shouldn't" ?) in TvZ as he can make 10 lings and kill it, but then conceded about the idea because he hasn't really played against the style and can't really comment too well on it, but my opinion as a Z and T player is that if Z has to make 10 lings instead of 5 drones that's good for the terran still (especially since 1 reaper is 50/50, and 3 reapers are 150/150, and 10 lings/5 drones is 500/0)
He has to catch the reapers. My go to TvZ build is 11 rax 12 gas 2 reaper poke around, with a fake bunker rush. I go into 3-1 with stim push of marauder/marine/reactor hellion and take an early third as well again.
Infact, I have a troll TvZ build that's beaten top 8 masters zerg like garbage players using only reapers and hellions. So, don't listen to the diamond zerg buddy. Reaper FE has it's place in every single MU.
Ninja edit..
My accounts are iamjeffrey and gzathegenius, both on NA. Random/bonkerz/sospecial/saviorself anything else I'm on in these replays is me leveling a friends name for him.
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jeffrey, what do you think is the advantage of your 3 tank push over "standard" bio? you essentially delay upgrades and medivacs for 3 tanks and siege. If you want to hit a timing, are 3 tanks better 2 more medivacs? (or vikings?)
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Tanks mean he can't just keep force-fielding you out, tanks create a nice little safe zone that he can't enter, allowing you to push forward.
You can beat forcefields with good medivac control, but it is riskier.
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On January 08 2012 01:43 dementrio wrote:
jeffrey, what do you think is the advantage of your 3 tank push over "standard" bio? you essentially delay upgrades and medivacs for 3 tanks and siege. If you want to hit a timing, are 3 tanks better 2 more medivacs? (or vikings?)
What upgrades, beyond 1-1, I don't delay anything. I get stim, siege, shields, and shells. I feel the medics complete the push... If they collsai, they can high ground you with stalker sentry and collsai and delay the push long enough.
With 2 medics, you can get away and or make your push last.
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what is the TvT metagame and what are the standard builds and their counters?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 08 2012 07:44 Kenpachi wrote:
what is the TvT metagame and what are the standard builds and their counters?
In terms of composition, the game is based mostly off of tanks. Some players go tankless and try to be mobile with marauders and medivacs, but mostly it's "what do you complement your tanks with"
The two classic choices are bio and hellions. If you're going bio, you get lots of upgrades for your marines and use them in conjunction with tanks and medivacs, and vikings to fight your opponent's vikings. If you're going mech (hellions) you make few medivacs, and build vikings. If you're going bio and your opponent is going mech, you make marauders instead of marines.
In terms of build orders, you often see builds that are either gas-first or delayed gas. Fairly common builds:
"map control" builds with delayed expos (1/1/1)
1) gas-first banshee. In this build you take a gas before your barracks, and a second gas with your factory. You make a starport, a banshee, and cloak before expanding.
2) rax-first banshee. In this build you make a barracks before your gas, and a second gas with your factory. You make a starport, a banshee, and usually cloak before expanding
3) gas-first or rax-first hellion drop. in this build you quickly get blue flame and a medivac.
"safe" builds with somewhat delayed expos
1) 1 rax 1 fact. In this build you begin your factory before beginning your command center, but don't take a 2nd gas or start a starport until after you begin your command center. This gives up the ability to be aggressive with early banshees but still techs quickly
2) 1 gas 1/1/1. in this build you either go for a red-flame hellion drop or a cloakless banshee harass. Your map control will be weaker than a 2-gas 1/1/1 and your ability to deal damage less-- but your need to deal damage will be less as well. Your expansion will be somewhat quicker.
3) Bio. more than 1 rax before you rexpand. less gas intensive, probably a fast expo, but delays tech.
Fast Expands
1) 1 rax gasless. Only for players who live life on the edge
2) 1 rax with gas. see 1 but you can make more stuff
3) 1 rax reaper. I'm actually not sure whether this is greedier or less greedy but reapers are pretty sweet
Allins
1) 3 rax stim. Pretty solid against hellion based openings, especially on maps with less defense. Loses to guys who make tanks/bunkers quickly, or cloak banshee builds
2) thor. slow-moving and scoutable, but unlike 3 rax stim doesn't auto- lose to banshees. outranges marine bunkers, auto-repair op. You'll usually need to proxy this though.
3) tanks. siege is pretty strong early on, and barring some good flanks or banshee play, it's hard to defend a sieged-up tank attacking you.
4) other. Terran can basically allin with whatever he has lying around most of the time. Hellion/marine? sure. Banshee/hellion? that's a thing. Reaper/Marauder/ghost? there are guides on TL about this good sir. scouting is easy in TvT so just if he's not expoing get ready for a crapstorm.
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Hi guys. I've never posted on TL before, but I've been pretty frustrated lately with my TvZ. I'm high diamond and I keep on getting matched up against masters players, which is fine. What is not fine is this new way of playing TvZ that I've encountered on the ladder. I like to open up reactor hellions, I believe it's the best opening. I run into a lot of players who are working up to ~20 roaches and containing me in my base, and as soon as they do they take a fast third and go for HYDRA?? infestor play. I try to do drops but queens/infestors do a pretty good job stopping me, and when I push out I get completely run over, or counter attacked as I'm moving out with drops/nydus/walking into my base. Anybody have any advice on how to deal with this new playstyle? Thanks.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Welcome to TL, DrewRaynor! :D
Hmm. I haven't seen much hydra play in TvZ, mostly because their slow speed makes it difficult for them to engage or disengage from a tank-based army. Against heavy roach play, you're best off making marine/tank. You'll have a tech lab barracks researching stim, so have that barracks make marauders. I can't really offer much more advice unless I see a replay though, since I don't have a lot of experience fighting Roach/Hydra.
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On January 08 2012 11:23 DrewRaynor wrote:
Hi guys. I've never posted on TL before, but I've been pretty frustrated lately with my TvZ. I'm high diamond and I keep on getting matched up against masters players, which is fine. What is not fine is this new way of playing TvZ that I've encountered on the ladder. I like to open up reactor hellions, I believe it's the best opening. I run into a lot of players who are working up to ~20 roaches and containing me in my base, and as soon as they do they take a fast third and go for HYDRA?? infestor play. I try to do drops but queens/infestors do a pretty good job stopping me, and when I push out I get completely run over, or counter attacked as I'm moving out with drops/nydus/walking into my base. Anybody have any advice on how to deal with this new playstyle? Thanks.
Don't know about the contain thing, we'd need replays to see the timings, etc., but against Roaches-based composition simply play standard Marine/Tanks while avoiding small engagements with low Tanks counts thay may favor the Zerg (especially if you lose said Tanks). Critical mass of Tanks should simply obliterate Roaches/Hydras/Infests since Roaches are supply-inefficient.
Oh, and don't forget detection near your bases.
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You guys are likely right. I just keep getting caught out of position. It`s crazy how important positioning is as terran. Anyway, just got promoted to masters. Appreciate your help
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