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On January 06 2012 02:00 xTrim wrote:I am mid-master terran.. http://drop.sc/79686 is a good example... Also, i've been 1-1-1'ing a lot cauz bio is indeed making me sick.
First, you need to change your mindset. You will never improve if you blame some illusory imbalance instead of your actual play. Your loss had nothing to do with some kind of TvP imbalance. And don't play 1-1-1 to collect easy wins, force yourself to play “macro games” in order to improve.
Now, as to why you lost—your build order is awful, and you played it wrong. I'll just point that single fact: the Protoss went an uncontested 11' third with some lategame-oriented tech (i. e. dual forge). This means you played it terribly wrong, as Protoss expanding too early will simply lose to adequate pressure play.
So, right from the beginning. You went gaslass 1 rax FE on Shattered Temple. Though I don't think Shattered Temple is a great map for this opening, it's OK. You scouted one gas and no chrono saved from the Protoss, which likely meant 1 gate FE; your 6' SCV scout confirmed it. Great.
Now, about your follow-up: you add 3 rax after gasless FE. The main purpose of this is to attack around the 7' with, say, 12-15 Marines to keep the Protoss modest in his tech. But you don't do that... You add 3 Lab and one Reactor to your Barracks, and proceed to make... Marines. This makes absolutely no sense. Why? Because if you go +3 rax instead of the usual +2 and faster Medivac, you delay your tech. Which means you have to do something to delay the Protoss tech, i. e. the Marine push I talked about. But you don't. And you don't even make Marauders to go for some kind of Stim push to make sure the Protoss has to slow down. Basically, you delayed your tech for nothing and incoherently made mass Marines out of Lab Barracks which should have been making Marauders.
As a result, you start your Starport at 10'30, which is horribly late. (You would have died badly to any kind of 2 Colossi push, by the way, since you did not even have a single Marauder by the 10' mark.) Late Medivacs mean you have no map control, no map presence at all. Which, again, means the Protoss is free to do whatever he wants.
Your 13' attack is a mess. You could have ended the game right here if you had microed the double drop you split from your main army into his Probes. Your late Spatio also prevents you from having enough Medivacs to heal your troops, and it's already time to start producing Vikings since you scouted Colossi. See how your build order is giving you problems? This has nothing to do with Protoss imbalance. Nothing.
Your third is way too late. You land it around the 16' mark to your gold, and do not even take your gases before the 18' mark even though you're gas-starved. You have to understand that constant Medivac production out of a Reactored Spatio takes 285 gas/minuts, which is rougly two thirds of your gas income when you're on two bases (assuming you have 4 gases, of course). Constant Viking production out of a Reactored Spatio takes 214 gas/minut, which is half of your gas income when you're on 4 gases. So, basically, 2 Reactored Spatios on 4 gases is a massive overkill since you also have to produce Marauders, get upgrades and make add-ons on your new Barracks. This also means you won't have any gas left for Ghost production, which will always be necessary at some point.
Now, about the 19' fight. You have a very Marine-heavy composition, which happens to be quite OK against what he has. Still, you rush into the fight, leaving your Vikings in a bad position. As a result, 2 of his Colossi survive, and you make the terrible decision to stim again (though you already don't have enough Medivacs to heal your wounded army) in order to focus one of his Colossi with all your MM in a tight ball. Consequently, you lost 23 Marines and 1 Marauder for a single Colossus. Let me repeat: you traded 23 Marines and 1 Marauder (25 supply, 1250 minerals, 25 gas) for one Colossus (6 supply, 300 minerals, 200 gas). Does it seem like a fair trade to you?
Now let's hit the Production tab. What are you producing? That's right, nothing. You just threw away 25 supply and lost a fight, but still you aren't producing anything. Meanwhile, all the Protoss' warpgates are on cooldown. Terrans alreavy have issues against reinforcing warp-ins when they're producing, so you can figure out by yourself what means not producing anything during and after a lost fight.
Somehow, the Protoss allows you to come back in the game, but you lose because he distracts you with a Warp prism while attacking into your main army. Why can he do that? Because you had no Turret to deny his Observer sight, and you were in front of your Barracks instead of behind (your Barracks can act as some kind of wall against Zealot-heavy armies). Let's add that when you leave, you have 4.2k minerals and 1.7k gas left.
See, there was not any kind of imbalance in this game. As always, you lost because of your mistakes; nothing more, nothing less. If you want to add 3 rax after gasless 1 rax FE, pressure with 12-15 Marines. If you don't want, then add only 2 rax, tech Medivacs faster and try to pressure him with your 2 first Medivacs. Never allow any Protoss to take a third before you without making him suffer hard with multi-drops and clever army movements (it's really easy to snipe a Nexus when your opponent is spread too thin). Don't let your Vikings die against his anti-air, particularly if you're that Marine-heavy, as Colossi simply murder Marines in a tight ball. Don't try desperate Colossi snipes when Zealots/Archons are in front of them. Don't add a Reactor on your second Spatio if you're only on 4 gases. Etc.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I think Dwf has it covered, but I just thought I'd stop by and note that any imbalances in the game are SO MINOR compared to the differences in player skill, that except in the top of the pro scene (or maybe even in the pro scene, too) a much larger factor is "how skilled is the player."
Like, if your game outcome is a number, player skill is the 10s column, and balance is like the 1s column, or the 0.1s column, even. Whatever imbalance there is in Sc2 is very mild. There were times when the game had some legitimate balance issues (5rax reaper anyone?) but EVEN THEN that sort of thing only made a different between high level players of equal skill.
Every now and then I get mad at balance issues. Then I stop, think, and realize that I have so much more room to improve and if I were simply better it wouldn't matter.
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On January 06 2012 03:17 TheDwf wrote:First, you need to change your mindset. You will never improve if you blame some illusory imbalance instead of your actual play. Your loss had nothing to do with some kind of TvP imbalance. And don't play 1-1-1 to collect easy wins, force yourself to play “macro games” in order to improve. Now, as to why you lost—your build order is awful, and you played it wrong. I'll just point that single fact: the Protoss went an uncontested 11' third with some lategame-oriented tech (i. e. dual forge). This means you played it terribly wrong, as Protoss expanding too early will simply lose to adequate pressure play. So, right from the beginning. You went gaslass 1 rax FE on Shattered Temple. Though I don't think Shattered Temple is a great map for this opening, it's OK. You scouted one gas and no chrono saved from the Protoss, which likely meant 1 gate FE; your 6' SCV scout confirmed it. Great. Now, about your follow-up: you add 3 rax after gasless FE. The main purpose of this is to attack around the 7' with, say, 12-15 Marines to keep the Protoss modest in his tech. But you don't do that... You add 3 Lab and one Reactor to your Barracks, and proceed to make... Marines. This makes absolutely no sense. Why? Because if you go +3 rax instead of the usual +2 and faster Medivac, you delay your tech. Which means you have to do something to delay the Protoss tech, i. e. the Marine push I talked about. But you don't. And you don't even make Marauders to go for some kind of Stim push to make sure the Protoss has to slow down. Basically, you delayed your tech for nothing and incoherently made mass Marines out of Lab Barracks which should have been making Marauders. As a result, you start your Starport at 10'30, which is horribly late. (You would have died badly to any kind of 2 Colossi push, by the way, since you did not even have a single Marauder by the 10' mark.) Late Medivacs mean you have no map control, no map presence at all. Which, again, means the Protoss is free to do whatever he wants. Your 13' attack is a mess. You could have ended the game right here if you had microed the double drop you split from your main army into his Probes. Your late Spatio also prevents you from having enough Medivacs to heal your troops, and it's already time to start producing Vikings since you scouted Colossi. See how your build order is giving you problems? This has nothing to do with Protoss imbalance. Nothing. Your third is way too late. You land it around the 16' mark to your gold, and do not even take your gases before the 18' mark even though you're gas-starved. You have to understand that constant Medivac production out of a Reactored Spatio takes 285 gas/minuts, which is rougly two thirds of your gas income when you're on two bases (assuming you have 4 gases, of course). Constant Viking production out of a Reactored Spatio takes 214 gas/minut, which is half of your gas income when you're on 4 gases. So, basically, 2 Reactored Spatios on 4 gases is a massive overkill since you also have to produce Marauders, get upgrades and make add-ons on your new Barracks. This also means you won't have any gas left for Ghost production, which will always be necessary at some point. Now, about the 19' fight. You have a very Marine-heavy composition, which happens to be quite OK against what he has. Still, you rush into the fight, leaving your Vikings in a bad position. As a result, 2 of his Colossi survive, and you make the terrible decision to stim again (though you already don't have enough Medivacs to heal your wounded army) in order to focus one of his Colossi with all your MM in a tight ball. Consequently, you lost 23 Marines and 1 Marauder for a single Colossus. Let me repeat: you traded 23 Marines and 1 Marauder (25 supply, 1250 minerals, 25 gas) for one Colossus (6 supply, 300 minerals, 200 gas). Does it seem like a fair trade to you? Now let's hit the Production tab. What are you producing? That's right, nothing. You just threw away 25 supply and lost a fight, but still you aren't producing anything. Meanwhile, all the Protoss' warpgates are on cooldown. Terrans alreavy have issues against reinforcing warp-ins when they're producing, so you can figure out by yourself what means not producing anything during and after a lost fight. Somehow, the Protoss allows you to come back in the game, but you lose because he distracts you with a Warp prism while attacking into your main army. Why can he do that? Because you had no Turret to deny his Observer sight, and you were in front of your Barracks instead of behind (your Barracks can act as some kind of wall against Zealot-heavy armies). Let's add that when you leave, you have 4.2k minerals and 1.7k gas left. See, there was not any kind of imbalance in this game. As always, you lost because of your mistakes; nothing more, nothing less. If you want to add 3 rax after gasless 1 rax FE, pressure with 12-15 Marines. If you don't want, then add only 2 rax, tech Medivacs faster and try to pressure him with your 2 first Medivacs. Never allow any Protoss to take a third before you without making him suffer hard with multi-drops and clever army movements (it's really easy to snipe a Nexus when your opponent is spread too thin). Don't let your Vikings die against his anti-air, particularly if you're that Marine-heavy, as Colossi simply murder Marines in a tight ball. Don't try desperate Colossi snipes when Zealots/Archons are in front of them. Don't add a Reactor on your second Spatio if you're only on 4 gases. Etc.
Thanks a lot... Will think about it thoroughly....
What sort of practice do you suggest?
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On January 06 2012 03:29 xTrim wrote:
Thanks a lot... Will think about it thoroughly....
What sort of practice do you suggest?
Not sure what you're asking. Whether you go +3 rax Marine pressure or “standard” +2 rax faster Medivacs, two of the key points against Protoss in “standard macro games” revolves around a) drop pressure and b) the time the Protoss tries to take his third. So, in those kind of games, I'd advise to practice trying to pressure him the harder you can in order to gain an advantage (or even win straightaway) at this point. I'll comment the following game, in which I'm playing, to give an example about those two points:
http://drop.sc/85106
This is of course no pro level, only (high) Master, but it should do the trick nonetheless. Both me and my opponent make mistakes, of course, but anyway capitalizing on the opponent's mistakes is full part of SC2, at all levels.
I chose a game which starts the way yours started, i. e. 1 rax gasless FE against 1 gate FE. I deny scouting from my opponent, but since I made the stupid mistake to show my SCV in the Tower sight, I am forced to use a scan to see if he expanded or not.
Now the follow-ups are different. I use my 225 first gas in one Lab, Stim and a Factory to get Medivacs as soon as possible. He, still not knowing what I'm up to, throws down a Robo before adding 2 gates. He tries to poke my secondary ramp at 7'30, and unfortunately my first Marauder and one Supply Depot in construction are revealed; this and the fast wall should be enough to tell him I went 1 rax gasless FE. But still, it's important to note that until this poke, he was playing rather uncomfortably not knowing for sure what I was doing. This forces him to play conservative or to take risks.
I start my Starport shortly before the 8' mark, which allows me to have 2 Medivacs out by 9'40. But before that, I'd like to draw your attention to the 8'30 move in which I simply take Towers back. You can see his immediate reaction: he warps in two additional Sentries and chronoes out an Immortal. This means 300 gas spent as a safety measure, triggered by a simple map control action. This also forces him to bring back his Observer to see if I actually went out to attack, which means he did not see my 2 Medivacs going out of the Starport (I had been cautious and waited for the Turret at the natural to complete before loading up, though, in order to be sure he did not see me dropping).
I send my Factory (very important to scout) and two Medivacs to his base. Using his Observer, he takes back Towers, but the dual drop will pin him in his base for some time. See, even if I had done zero damage (here, I killed 9 probes which is rather sweet), I am now controlling his army location, since I can threaten to come back any time with this dual drop.
With my drop, I scouted he was going Colossi. My Factory also scouts the dual Forge, which tells me he's planning to play in a passive way (dual Forge usually is), most likely taking his third then switching to HT tech, etc. I can then safely expand and start building an in-base CC at the 11'30 mark. My Factory also scouts his whole army. I move out with my army to take back Towers and check if he went for a third (should have checked the other third location too, by the way). I start to produce Vikings and add a second naked Starport to be able to keep producing Medivacs, since there's nothing worse than having your whole bio wounded without being able to heal it. I roam in front of his base, trying to breach his defence. Note how he's forced to split his army in order to defend the potential come back of my drops.
At the 13'45 mark, I try a manoeuvre which kinds of fail since I don't yet have 4 arms. Still, Medivacs allow me to pick up trapped troops if I need to, so it's OK. Most importantly, I failed to deny his Observer above my army. Scanning Observers is crucial, since without Xel'Naga Towers and Observers Protoss simply have no way to know where your army is; had I scanned this Observer, he would have had less time to react, etc.
At the 14' mark, he fends off my army, but I simply Stim and runs away. Bio is too mobile for what he has, and I have enough Medivac to heal them after, so it's no problem. His army being out of position, I unload the remaining Medivac behind his main's mineral line (I think I had previously misclicked the unload on the outer space, so the Medivac was simply standing there doing nothing, and he perhaps thought it was empty, as Terrans often forget to bring back empty Medivacs after drops are cleaned). I kill some Probes, but more importantly scout and deny his Archive Templar, which he doesn't bother to cancel. I pick up Marauders and retreat. Note how he's now building Cannons behind his mineral line. One Cannon and one Warpgate are the same price.
I take back Towers and see he went a third. Pay attention to the terrain layout here: there is a very nice cliff that Vikings can fully exploit to fire nearly uncontested at Colossi. Though I don't have enough Vikings (first 6, then 8) to deal with his Colossi (4), the terrain advantage will more than make up for this; besides, I have full sight thanks to Scan prior fight (very important !). After some Viking harass on his Colossi (take any free shots you can), I engage while unloading my drop (still there after all this time!) behind his natural's mineral line. Since he mispositionned his army, his macro was inferior and he did not have Storm / enough Archons yet, I simply won the game here.
Things will not always go that nicely, of course, but I hope that was still helpful to see how you can pressure Protoss with drops and take advantages of weaknesses in their builds.
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On January 06 2012 05:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 03:29 xTrim wrote:
Thanks a lot... Will think about it thoroughly....
What sort of practice do you suggest? Not sure what you're asking. Whether you go +3 rax Marine pressure or “standard” +2 rax faster Medivacs, two of the key points against Protoss in “standard macro games” revolves around a) drop pressure and b) the time the Protoss tries to take his third. So, in those kind of games, I'd advise to practice trying to pressure him the harder you can in order to gain an advantage (or even win straightaway) at this point. I'll comment the following game, in which I'm playing, to give an example about those two points: http://drop.sc/85106This is of course no pro level, only (high) Master, but it should do the trick nonetheless. Both me and my opponent make mistakes, of course, but anyway capitalizing on the opponent's mistakes is full part of SC2, at all levels. I chose a game which starts the way yours started, i. e. 1 rax gasless FE against 1 gate FE. I deny scouting from my opponent, but since I made the stupid mistake to show my SCV in the Tower sight, I am forced to use a scan to see if he expanded or not. Now the follow-ups are different. I use my 225 first gas in one Lab, Stim and a Factory to get Medivacs as soon as possible. He, still not knowing what I'm up to, throws down a Robo before adding 2 gates. He tries to poke my secondary ramp at 7'30, and unfortunately my first Marauder and one Supply Depot in construction are revealed; this and the fast wall should be enough to tell him I went 1 rax gasless FE. But still, it's important to note that until this poke, he was playing rather uncomfortably not knowing for sure what I was doing. This forces him to play conservative or to take risks. I start my Starport shortly before the 8' mark, which allows me to have 2 Medivacs out by 9'40. But before that, I'd like to draw your attention to the 8'30 move in which I simply take Towers back. You can see his immediate reaction: he warps in two additional Sentries and chronoes out an Immortal. This means 300 gas spent as a safety measure, triggered by a simple map control action. This also forces him to bring back his Observer to see if I actually went out to attack, which means he did not see my 2 Medivacs going out of the Starport (I had been cautious and waited for the Turret at the natural to complete before loading up, though, in order to be sure he did not see me dropping). I send my Factory (very important to scout) and two Medivacs to his base. Using his Observer, he takes back Towers, but the dual drop will pin him in his base for some time. See, even if I had done zero damage (here, I killed 9 probes which is rather sweet), I am now controlling his army location, since I can threaten to come back any time with this dual drop. With my drop, I scouted he was going Colossi. My Factory also scouts the dual Forge, which tells me he's planning to play in a passive way (dual Forge usually is), most likely taking his third then switching to HT tech, etc. I can then safely expand and start building an in-base CC at the 11'30 mark. My Factory also scouts his whole army. I move out with my army to take back Towers and check if he went for a third (should have checked the other third location too, by the way). I start to produce Vikings and adds a second naked Starport to be able to keep producing Medivacs, since there's nothing worse than having your whole bio wounded without being able to heal it. I roam in front of his base, trying to breach his defence. Note how he's forced to split his army in order to defend the potential come back of my drops. At the 13'45 mark, I try a manoeuvre which kinds of fail since I don't yet have 4 arms. Still, Medivacs allow me to pick up trapped troops if I need to, so it's OK. Most importantly, I failed to deny his Observer above my army. Scanning Observers is crucial, since without Xel'Naga Towers and Observers Protoss simply have no way to know where your army is; had I scanned this Observer, he would have had less time to react, etc. At the 14' mark, he fends off my army, but I simply Stim and runs away. Bio is too mobile for what he has, and I have enough Medivac to heal them after, so it's no problem. His army being out of position, I unload the remaining Medivac behind his main's mineral line (I think I had previously misclicked the unload on the outer space, so the Medivac was simply standing there doing nothing, and he perhaps thought it was empty, as Terrans often forget to bring back empty Medivacs after drops are cleaned). I kill some Probes, but more importantly scout and deny his Archive Templar, which he doesn't bother to cancel. I pick up Marauders and retreat. Note how he's now building Cannons behind his mineral line. One Cannon and one Warpgate are the same price. I take back Towers and see he went a third. Pay attention to the terrain layout here: there is a very nice cliff that Vikings can fully exploit to fire nearly uncontested at Colossi. Though I don't have enough Vikings (first 6, then 8) to deal with his Colossi (4), the terrain advantage will more than make up for this; besides, I have full sight thanks to Scan prior fight (very important !). After some Viking harass on his Colossi (take any free shots you can), I engage while unloading my drop (still there after all this time!) behind his natural's mineral line. Since he mispositionned his army, his macro was inferior and he did not have Storm / enough Archons yet, I simply won the game here. Things will not always go that nicely, of course, but I hope that was still helpful to see how you can pressure Protoss with drops and take advantages of weaknesses in their builds.
I`ve just watched the rep... I liked how the double drop went... Is it better to straight up drop 2x like that?? I mean, while the toss is still in 2 bases? Or just go cute with drops in different places?? I feel that doing it in different places when toss is in 2 bases is somewhat risky!
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On January 06 2012 05:30 xTrim wrote:
I`ve just watched the rep... I liked how the double drop went... Is it better to straight up drop 2x like that?? I mean, while the toss is still in 2 bases? Or just go cute with drops in different places?? I feel that doing it in different places when toss is in 2 bases is somewhat risky!
I think I went dual drop because I had Towers. I don't think I could have dropped one in the main and the other in the natural since, well, his army is most likely in front of his natural, so he should be able to immediately shut down the second drop. Besides, it requires more multi-tasking while not necessarily being more damaging.
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I'm stuck in gold league, and it seems like all protoss indiscriminately 4gate. Everybody in higher leagues says 4gate defense is a free win, but I've been having quite a lot of trouble defending 4gates....
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On January 06 2012 06:17 RoosterSamurai wrote:
I'm stuck in gold league, and it seems like all protoss indiscriminately 4gate. Everybody in higher leagues says 4gate defense is a free win, but I've been having quite a lot of trouble defending 4gates....
OMG this is my life story! Someone please coach us into stopping 4Gates or 3gate robo's!!! In desperate need of help. It's the only thing keeping me in the Silver league as far as I can tell ><
Also, what's a good way to practice micro against protoss death balls?
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On January 06 2012 06:17 RoosterSamurai wrote:
I'm stuck in gold league, and it seems like all protoss indiscriminately 4gate. Everybody in higher leagues says 4gate defense is a free win, but I've been having quite a lot of trouble defending 4gates....
What build are you opening up with.
Reaper FE should not only scout, but prepare you for 3gate vr/robo and 4gate/1gate FE difference. Besides chrono, 4 gate and 1 gate FE look the same. Scout 1 gas. Run before ~4:05 or so when first stalker could pop out and hide the scv. Poke back around ~5-5:30 minutes with scv from the front, reaper from the side. You will 100% see no expo dropped, and the other gates.
From there, you have 3 or 4 or 5 rax, pending on how you transition, plus 2OCs. Pull expo up onto main. Don't make addons. Get 1 tech lab, and get shells and then stim/shields (your discretion) and just don't miss a depot.
This is how I transition from reaper FE. I pull from gas, and get the rax 2-5 faster.
http://drop.sc/80681
Really, the key is scouting it, and reacting to it. If it's a 1 gas 4 gate, you can win without bunkers, but at your level I'd suggest 1-2 bunkers. 2 gas 4 gate, which hits later, definitely get 1-2 bunkers, and space them back to force the protoss into a choke (your ramp) to attack you.
That 1 rax reaper FE into 5 rax I've found can be well prepared for 3gate robo on some maps, especially if you have a pre concave, and bunkers, with scvs ready to repair.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:20 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 06:17 RoosterSamurai wrote:
I'm stuck in gold league, and it seems like all protoss indiscriminately 4gate. Everybody in higher leagues says 4gate defense is a free win, but I've been having quite a lot of trouble defending 4gates.... OMG this is my life story! Someone please coach us into stopping 4Gates or 3gate robo's!!! In desperate need of help. It's the only thing keeping me in the Silver league as far as I can tell >< Also, what's a good way to practice micro against protoss death balls?
4Gate and 3 gate robo are different, but there are basically two parts to defending either of these:
1) scouting that he is all-inning you
2) defending
If your problem is #1, here are a few tips:
4gate is usually off of 1 gas, but can be done off of 2. 3 gate Robo immortal all in is done off of 2 gas.
4gate can look like 1 gate FE. The way you tell it's not a 1 gate FE is that there's no Nexus by 5:00.
A 3 gate Robo Immortal all in can look like a gate Robo FE or a 2 gate 1 Robo Fe. The way you tell it's not a "safe expansion" is that there's no nexus by 5:45.
So, assuming you were able to scout your opponent's number of gasses, AND the fact that he's not expanding, we have two scenarios:
1) he had 1 gas and didn't expand. This is a 4-warpgate all in with few or no sentries. Unless you are on Shakuras Plateau, Tal'Darim Altar, or similar, keep your 2nd CC on the high ground. If you went for a "safe" expansion with either a 2nd rax, or a factory, you can hold him with 1 bunker. If you went for a "greedy" expansion, such as a CC first or a reaper expand, you'll want a 2nd bunker. Add more barracks and constantly produce marines. Hotkey some scvs to pull quickly for repairs. On maps like Shattered Temple 6:00 or 12:00, or Metalopolis Any spawn, where your mineral line is close to your main ramp, this will be easy. On maps like Shakuras Plateau (if you haven't flown your CC out for whatever reason) or, say, Scrap Station, you may want to pre-emptively pull an scv or two-- as a general rule, I like to have one out front so that I can see him coming a few seconds early.
2) he had 2 gasses and didn't expand. This is a sentry 4gate or a tech all-in, with either DTs, Blink, Immortals, or Void Rays, or Warp Prism. You need to scout more with a scout rax, scan, scouting scv, or scouting hellion.
2.1) He had a Robo. This is an Immortal all-in or a Warp Prism 4gate. Either way, you want a 2nd bunker. Keep on producing marines and as you make more depots, scatter them around the inside of your base to watch for drops. Stay on one base if you're on one base, and keep on muling. If you're on Tal'Darim, Antiga, or Shakuras and you FEd to the lowground, stay on the lowground.
2.2) He's making lots of stalkers, not a lot of sentries or zealots, and may or may not have a Twilight Council. Saved Chrono Boost. This is a Blink Stalker all-in, and is the most micro-intensive of the all-ins to hold. He will blink into your base. Do not make a 2nd bunker at your ramp. Make as many marines and marauders as possible. If you went for a quick factory, make tanks but bear in mind that he will try to snipe them. If you're thor rushing or something just make a thor cause that unit is op.
2.3) He's making lots of zealots and stalkers, but no sentries, and may or may not have a Twilight Council. Spending his Chrono Boost. If he's not saving chrono AND he's got 2 gas but he's not making sentries or a robo, this means he's hidden a DT shrine somewhere. Make a turret or a raven, continue as planned.
2.4) He's making some of zealots and stalkers, but no sentries, and does not have a Twilight council. He's saving chrono boost. You'd only be banking chrono like that to chrono out some void rays. The lower stalker count, presence of more than one zealot, and delayed additional gateways indicates that he's hidden a Stargate somewhere. Make a 2nd bunker and begin stimpack research, or make a viking if you have starport tech.
2.5) He's got lots of sentries, but hasn't expanded. This is a Sentry 4gate. Add an extra bunker and maximize surface area for it. Try to repair some of that bunker from the front. This runs out of steam really fast once his forcefields are done.
2.6) I scouted his base and all I saw was a gateway and/or I forgot how much chrono he has and didn't see any army or tech buildings. In this case, add a 2nd bunker, get detection, and get stimpack OR get a viking. Your defense won't be optimal against whatever he's doing but it should be acceptable. Keep on making units and scvs. Don't fly your CC out. Make depots around the edge of your base to watch for drops.
2.7) I scouted a specific tech structure (HTs, Robo bay, Fleet Beacon, double cybernetics core, etc) that isn't on this list. What do I do? Anything except Colossus can be beaten just by making more bunkers and marines, assuming you have detection and repair. If you're worried about a colo allin, tech up to viking.
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While i see really long posts, i have a quick question. Does anyone ever successfully win tvp once the P has 4 bases and are maxed? (With bio)
I generally, and have been told by everyone i have asked, (And drewbie, jinro etc all hold) that this is insta gg.
I know full well im not winning that maxed fight, and even if by some miracle i do, i have to beat the P 300 army. Not saying its imba, its just how the MU is, T has to be the aggressor and if they dont do enough damage they lose. Just wondering if there are any neat tricks people have, like doom dropping a 200 supply army into the main or something.
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On January 06 2012 07:08 Squigly wrote:
While i see really long posts, i have a quick question. Does anyone ever successfully win tvp once the P has 4 bases and are maxed? (With bio)
I generally, and have been told by everyone i have asked, (And drewbie, jinro etc all hold) that this is insta gg.
I know full well im not winning that maxed fight, and even if by some miracle i do, i have to beat the P 300 army. Not saying its imba, its just how the MU is, T has to be the aggressor and if they dont do enough damage they lose. Just wondering if there are any neat tricks people have, like doom dropping a 200 supply army into the main or something.
Multi-pronged nukes + macro OCs to sacrifice SCVs + defensively zone the map with PFs/mass bunkers/etc. (just like you would do in TvZ, actually) so that you don't get instantly killed by reinforcing warp-ins after a big fight.
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So guys, I've been being hurt by mutas in tvz lately, and haven't been able to drop because of them. Does anyone know what a standard timing is that mutas usually pop out. Or when a muta rush would hit? Also, any good attack timings in TvZ would be great to know.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2012 07:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 07:08 Squigly wrote:
While i see really long posts, i have a quick question. Does anyone ever successfully win tvp once the P has 4 bases and are maxed? (With bio)
I generally, and have been told by everyone i have asked, (And drewbie, jinro etc all hold) that this is insta gg.
I know full well im not winning that maxed fight, and even if by some miracle i do, i have to beat the P 300 army. Not saying its imba, its just how the MU is, T has to be the aggressor and if they dont do enough damage they lose. Just wondering if there are any neat tricks people have, like doom dropping a 200 supply army into the main or something. Multi-pronged nukes + macro OCs to sacrifice SCVs + defensively zone the map with PFs/mass bunkers/etc. (just like you would do in TvZ, actually) so that you don't get instantly killed by reinforcing warp-ins after a big fight.
If P is maxed, create a defender's advantage for yourself using statics. Make Orbitals and sac scvs so your army is a little bigger, then take that extra army size and use it to drop him. He won't have warpgates to defend. Gradually whittle away his economy and do small, efficient army trades. Go for infrastructure if such a thing is possible. Harass with nukes if you like that sort of thing. Keep on doing this.
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On January 06 2012 07:18 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 07:14 TheDwf wrote:On January 06 2012 07:08 Squigly wrote:
While i see really long posts, i have a quick question. Does anyone ever successfully win tvp once the P has 4 bases and are maxed? (With bio)
I generally, and have been told by everyone i have asked, (And drewbie, jinro etc all hold) that this is insta gg.
I know full well im not winning that maxed fight, and even if by some miracle i do, i have to beat the P 300 army. Not saying its imba, its just how the MU is, T has to be the aggressor and if they dont do enough damage they lose. Just wondering if there are any neat tricks people have, like doom dropping a 200 supply army into the main or something. Multi-pronged nukes + macro OCs to sacrifice SCVs + defensively zone the map with PFs/mass bunkers/etc. (just like you would do in TvZ, actually) so that you don't get instantly killed by reinforcing warp-ins after a big fight. If P is maxed, create a defender's advantage for yourself using statics. Make Orbitals and sac scvs so your army is a little bigger, then take that extra army size and use it to drop him. He won't have warpgates to defend. Gradually whittle away his economy and do small, efficient army trades. Go for infrastructure if such a thing is possible. Harass with nukes if you like that sort of thing. Keep on doing this.
Yea i always forget that a maxed P loses the ability to warp in and deny all drops. Maxing out for P really has issues with drops. Thanks, i always forget that 
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On January 06 2012 07:41 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 07:18 Blazinghand wrote:On January 06 2012 07:14 TheDwf wrote:On January 06 2012 07:08 Squigly wrote:
While i see really long posts, i have a quick question. Does anyone ever successfully win tvp once the P has 4 bases and are maxed? (With bio)
I generally, and have been told by everyone i have asked, (And drewbie, jinro etc all hold) that this is insta gg.
I know full well im not winning that maxed fight, and even if by some miracle i do, i have to beat the P 300 army. Not saying its imba, its just how the MU is, T has to be the aggressor and if they dont do enough damage they lose. Just wondering if there are any neat tricks people have, like doom dropping a 200 supply army into the main or something. Multi-pronged nukes + macro OCs to sacrifice SCVs + defensively zone the map with PFs/mass bunkers/etc. (just like you would do in TvZ, actually) so that you don't get instantly killed by reinforcing warp-ins after a big fight. If P is maxed, create a defender's advantage for yourself using statics. Make Orbitals and sac scvs so your army is a little bigger, then take that extra army size and use it to drop him. He won't have warpgates to defend. Gradually whittle away his economy and do small, efficient army trades. Go for infrastructure if such a thing is possible. Harass with nukes if you like that sort of thing. Keep on doing this. Yea i always forget that a maxed P loses the ability to warp in and deny all drops. Maxing out for P really has issues with drops. Thanks, i always forget that
Talking about Maxing out, forgive me but as a Silver player I was BLOWN away when after getting defeated in a battle I maxed out in 20 seconds o_O Unbelievable how much pressure I was putting on the opponent, I almost felt like I was cheating o_O o_O
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Hey oo/
Toss Player here but a friend of mine is struggling hard in bronze because he basically has no idea how to engage, especially against zerg. I tried to explain it to him "The lings/Mutas roll in like a wave, you have to run back / split your marines behind the tanks to proztect them, then push him back once the wave fizzles out" but he doesnt really get it, so is there any video / game that would be good to explain standart tank / marine vs bling / muta engagements?
Also on the topic of marine micro, Im toying around with a micro trainer right now but what confuses me is that despite the tips saying you should use patrol micro its way easier to just do stutter step with one huge blob. (Marines vs blings). So how does Marine micro work in a real game? Because the whole patrol micro thing seems to completly abandon stutterstepping? Or do you need to combine them? I also have that issue that, when I send groups of marines away to split theyll just end up standing around somewhere but if I patrol them instead of attack moving away theyll either run back into the blings or just end up doing nothing. So I kinda lack a rl approach to bling vs marine fights xD
I ASSUME that the best thing would be to patrol micro back and leave some marines behind but then stil micro the leftover blob around?
Thanks =)
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On January 06 2012 03:17 TheDwf wrote:First, you need to change your mindset. You will never improve if you blame some illusory imbalance instead of your actual play. Your loss had nothing to do with some kind of TvP imbalance. And don't play 1-1-1 to collect easy wins, force yourself to play “macro games” in order to improve. Now, as to why you lost—your build order is awful, and you played it wrong. I'll just point that single fact: the Protoss went an uncontested 11' third with some lategame-oriented tech (i. e. dual forge). This means you played it terribly wrong, as Protoss expanding too early will simply lose to adequate pressure play. So, right from the beginning. You went gaslass 1 rax FE on Shattered Temple. Though I don't think Shattered Temple is a great map for this opening, it's OK. You scouted one gas and no chrono saved from the Protoss, which likely meant 1 gate FE; your 6' SCV scout confirmed it. Great. Now, about your follow-up: you add 3 rax after gasless FE. The main purpose of this is to attack around the 7' with, say, 12-15 Marines to keep the Protoss modest in his tech. But you don't do that... You add 3 Lab and one Reactor to your Barracks, and proceed to make... Marines. This makes absolutely no sense. Why? Because if you go +3 rax instead of the usual +2 and faster Medivac, you delay your tech. Which means you have to do something to delay the Protoss tech, i. e. the Marine push I talked about. But you don't. And you don't even make Marauders to go for some kind of Stim push to make sure the Protoss has to slow down. Basically, you delayed your tech for nothing and incoherently made mass Marines out of Lab Barracks which should have been making Marauders. As a result, you start your Starport at 10'30, which is horribly late. (You would have died badly to any kind of 2 Colossi push, by the way, since you did not even have a single Marauder by the 10' mark.) Late Medivacs mean you have no map control, no map presence at all. Which, again, means the Protoss is free to do whatever he wants. Your 13' attack is a mess. You could have ended the game right here if you had microed the double drop you split from your main army into his Probes. Your late Spatio also prevents you from having enough Medivacs to heal your troops, and it's already time to start producing Vikings since you scouted Colossi. See how your build order is giving you problems? This has nothing to do with Protoss imbalance. Nothing. Your third is way too late. You land it around the 16' mark to your gold, and do not even take your gases before the 18' mark even though you're gas-starved. You have to understand that constant Medivac production out of a Reactored Spatio takes 285 gas/minuts, which is rougly two thirds of your gas income when you're on two bases (assuming you have 4 gases, of course). Constant Viking production out of a Reactored Spatio takes 214 gas/minut, which is half of your gas income when you're on 4 gases. So, basically, 2 Reactored Spatios on 4 gases is a massive overkill since you also have to produce Marauders, get upgrades and make add-ons on your new Barracks. This also means you won't have any gas left for Ghost production, which will always be necessary at some point. Now, about the 19' fight. You have a very Marine-heavy composition, which happens to be quite OK against what he has. Still, you rush into the fight, leaving your Vikings in a bad position. As a result, 2 of his Colossi survive, and you make the terrible decision to stim again (though you already don't have enough Medivacs to heal your wounded army) in order to focus one of his Colossi with all your MM in a tight ball. Consequently, you lost 23 Marines and 1 Marauder for a single Colossus. Let me repeat: you traded 23 Marines and 1 Marauder (25 supply, 1250 minerals, 25 gas) for one Colossus (6 supply, 300 minerals, 200 gas). Does it seem like a fair trade to you? Now let's hit the Production tab. What are you producing? That's right, nothing. You just threw away 25 supply and lost a fight, but still you aren't producing anything. Meanwhile, all the Protoss' warpgates are on cooldown. Terrans alreavy have issues against reinforcing warp-ins when they're producing, so you can figure out by yourself what means not producing anything during and after a lost fight. Somehow, the Protoss allows you to come back in the game, but you lose because he distracts you with a Warp prism while attacking into your main army. Why can he do that? Because you had no Turret to deny his Observer sight, and you were in front of your Barracks instead of behind (your Barracks can act as some kind of wall against Zealot-heavy armies). Let's add that when you leave, you have 4.2k minerals and 1.7k gas left. See, there was not any kind of imbalance in this game. As always, you lost because of your mistakes; nothing more, nothing less. If you want to add 3 rax after gasless 1 rax FE, pressure with 12-15 Marines. If you don't want, then add only 2 rax, tech Medivacs faster and try to pressure him with your 2 first Medivacs. Never allow any Protoss to take a third before you without making him suffer hard with multi-drops and clever army movements (it's really easy to snipe a Nexus when your opponent is spread too thin). Don't let your Vikings die against his anti-air, particularly if you're that Marine-heavy, as Colossi simply murder Marines in a tight ball. Don't try desperate Colossi snipes when Zealots/Archons are in front of them. Don't add a Reactor on your second Spatio if you're only on 4 gases. Etc.
I guess they may not necessarily be called "imbalences" but at mid master level lategame tvp is insane for terran, When toss gets on 20+ gateways and are just in insane macro it gets rough. Additionally the lategame engage for terran in tvp is harder, while not imbalenced, doesn't make it any easier.... Because at mid master level you dont have the micro needed to properly control your army in a 200/200 engage.
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I don't know if this is a proper question but......
WHAT I DO VS ZERG! I have a minimun knowledge of the matchup although I am high diamond on the NA ladder. I know nothing of Zergs timing. I only know that 2base 1-1 2 factory 4 reactor barracks stim push ((with a medivac or 2)) will usually win me the game. However, as i'm progressing to the higher levels of play Zerg are doing things like fast thirds and Macro games *shudders*
Please give unto me Zerg timings and good strategies!!!
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Hi guys, quick question here
What is the go-to build when toss is going 3-gate blink w/ observer -> expand?
I usually go 1 (tech labbed) rax marauder/marine then expand then put down 2 more rax (1 reactor, 1 tech lab), and it's very hard to stop :O
Even if I make 2+ bunkers he can just blink up my main...
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EPT
