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On October 07 2011 19:20 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 18:21 Latedi wrote:On October 07 2011 18:13 mizU wrote:On October 07 2011 17:17 Latedi wrote:On October 07 2011 12:06 mizU wrote:On October 07 2011 09:52 (kimi)YaSu wrote:
Two problems as protoss:
1. I find expanding to non-natural expansions scary and difficult as protoss don't have planetaries or queens or spine crawlers, only cannons, which are apparently really situational. I do not know how to prevent an opponent muscling into my expansion all at once and sacking it in less than 5 seconds.
2. I find macroing in battle pretty hard. Can someone give me some advice on gearing my mind to do this. Since protoss is so micro oriented, going off the battle scene to warp in units, I find very difficult. I find it a little harder to expand vs Terran than Zerg, becuase small bio groups with stim can snipe my nexus SO fast. You should have 3-4 cannons per expand, with 2-3 pylons. Warping in emergency zealots can help out, depending on the unit composition. However, you shouldn't be expanding until you feel safe anyway. If you are in your natural while taking an expand, you're asking for it to get sniped. You should have map control or at least know where the opponent's army is before you expand. Generally speaking if they try to snipe your third, you can react (not necessarily in time to save your third) and FF and kill their army, then either re-expand, or go counter. Micro... I find it a TON easier if you bring a probe or two with every push and set up pylons near your army or your desired engagement location, allowing you to move to a pylon to warp in faster, as well as micro. Try this. You can't really make this many cannons against terran without sacrificing army supply, at least this early in the game. I believe it's better if you take map control and spot drops with observers or xel naga towers, then snipe them with stalkers or high templars. Late game you can afford the cannons and sometimes even leave a templar to feedback and storm medivacs. Third base in PvT is not early game... You need cannons to prevent drops and nexus snipes. No but I'd say it's mid game. You really have to sacrifcice something to make that amount of cannons. This money is better spent on gateways and zealots from my point of view. Seems like a way to invite drops into your bases to me.
Well yeah I love when terrans try to drop me and I spot it without them noticing (xel naga towers, observers). That means I can move blink stalkers in position and kill it off for free.
On October 07 2011 21:20 Fairwell wrote:
Hey, I was wondering if someone could give me some tips on defending a 2rax + some scvs (like 6-8) with bunkers pressure in pvt (the standard 1marine->reactor->2 marines at a time and 2nd rax before next supply debot with techlab and conc shells into cc) if you opened 1gate/1gas fe. I've tried different unit ratios, cb warpgates or more the units etc. Recently I even asked Axslav on his live-stream about this and he said you should mainly get stalkers (some zealots, no sentries) with this (i.e. if you opened 1gate/1gas fe) and cb units and no warpgate tech, if needed pull some probes and help to defend (try to mineral walk and then surround). I know that some people think 3gate/2gas expo is the way to go if you see this, however, Axlsav said this opening is very viable against it, just the 1gate/2gas fe has problems vs this push.
However, most of the time I lose quite some probes to this push (way more than the terran). Most of the time I know for sure when 2 rax is coming (often times i sucide my probe since you usually can get past his 1st marine if he doesn't stutter micro it perfectly to prevent scouting) and feel like getting such a delayed gas and gates on bigger maps should not be necessary. Any tips on unit ratio + engagement will help me a lot. Thx. (masters level protoss on eu)
Well I think you can probably trust Axslav on this one haha. I think he has more experience and knowledge than anyone around here. I'd say get as many stalkers as you possibly can and try to focus fire marauders to prevent concussive (he won't have many of them) and then kite/micro against the marines. Also you have to prevent any bunkers from going down. When engaging use your probes to surround his marines and try to dodge his scvs with the stalkers and focus his bio units. He is going to be doing the same to you though, except it's beneficial to him if it ends up with marine marauder against probes and stalkers against SCVs.
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So I’m currently a Zerg that used to play Protoss, but I’ve decided that Blink Stalkers are amazingly fun and am probably going to go back to Toss (at least part of the time). As such, I have some questions.
1) What are some good builds for transitioning into Blink Stalkers? (in each match-up?)
2) What units compliment Blink Stalkers well?
3) What sized groups do blink stalkers work best in?
4) When should you not go Blink Stalkers, and are they impossible in any of the matchups?
5) What upgrades are best for blink stalkers?
And anything else that you think is relevant to this, I suppose.
Thanks :D.
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Italy12247 Posts
On October 08 2011 01:52 StarZeph wrote:
So I’m currently a Zerg that used to play Protoss, but I’ve decided that Blink Stalkers are amazingly fun and am probably going to go back to Toss (at least part of the time). As such, I have some questions.
1) What are some good builds for transitioning into Blink Stalkers? (in each match-up?)
2) What units compliment Blink Stalkers well?
3) What sized groups do blink stalkers work best in?
4) When should you not go Blink Stalkers, and are they impossible in any of the matchups?
5) What upgrades are best for blink stalkers?
And anything else that you think is relevant to this, I suppose.
Thanks :D.
For PvZ, you can do a 2base blink stalker build like these:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232046
You can also allin with 3-4 gates worth off blink stalkers off 1base if you want to.
In PvP use these two guides for blink stalker play:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249638
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772
Both are extremely solid ways to play pvp, imo far better than colossus as it's not "hardcountered" by anything.
In PvT the only build i can think of that uses blink stalkers heavily is Time's twilight expand:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257168
Blink stalkers can offer you good map control and harass options, but rememeber that they are pretty awful in straight up fights in many situations, especially in pvt as stimmed marauders just chrew through them. They are often used as means to pressure an opponent while teching to something else, often a mix of templar/chargelot/archon depending on the matchup and the situation.
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On October 07 2011 17:17 Latedi wrote:
Well I think you can probably trust Axslav on this one haha. I think he has more experience and knowledge than anyone around here. I'd say get as many stalkers as you possibly can and try to focus fire marauders to prevent concussive (he won't have many of them) and then kite/micro against the marines. Also you have to prevent any bunkers from going down. When engaging use your probes to surround his marines and try to dodge his scvs with the stalkers and focus his bio units. He is going to be doing the same to you though, except it's beneficial to him if it ends up with marine marauder against probes and stalkers against SCVs.
Thanks for the reply. I totally agree with you that bunkers can't ever get up, so what I usually try to do here is to focus fire his scvs making bunkers with stalkers and pulling back asap, letting my nexus tank a bit to get more units out. I usually have the feeling that if he brings scvs and I need to pull probes, the terran player benefits way more in the fight (45 to 40 hp on workers help ofc) but mostly because of the fact that his units have higher dps than zealot-stalker, he gets tanking units then (since he doesn't have stim yet).
However, lately I've been trying to focus fire marines first (Axlsav recommends going for marines first and afterwards for marauder) but stalker need 5 shots to kill them. :-)
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hi, dia/master toss here. Im struggling in the ladder now, because there are a lot of cheesers around high dia/master level. A friend ( high master/gm zerg) suggested, that I should cheese more,to be more familiar with them ( i NEVER cheese) But i dont know how to execute and defend cheeses.
What cheeses has protoss at his disposal in the matchups and how can I defend those in pvp ?
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On October 08 2011 23:13 Brainiak wrote:
hi, dia/master toss here. Im struggling in the ladder now, because there are a lot of cheesers around high dia/master level. A friend ( high master/gm zerg) suggested, that I should cheese more,to be more familiar with them ( i NEVER cheese) But i dont know how to execute and defend cheeses.
What cheeses has protoss at his disposal in the matchups and how can I defend those in pvp ?
As for cheese, you can do the following:
PvT: Proxy Gate, 4 Gate, 2/3 Gate Voidray Allin
PvP: Cannon Rush, Proxy Gate, 4 Gate
PvZ: 4 Gate, 3 Gate Stargate, 4 Gate Blink/DT
What 'specific' cheeses are you having troubles with? There also timing attacks in the protoss arsenal that if properly executed, can still be potent at the highest levels.
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Well , I always loose to cannon rushes, even though i put down a forge, the moment i see indications
Moreover i know these cheeses, but dont really know how to execute them. What to i have to keep in mind, what to i need to look out for?
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Scout early, the moment you see a forge or no gate. Stop all your probes and cancel your assimilator.
It can either be a cannon rush or proxy gate.
For cannon rush, the moment you scout it, stop all your buildings and build a forge and get a zealot to delay the push. Build cannons near your nexus so he can't push further and you will have the economic lead as he invested alot into the rush. A common mistake is to try and rush for stalkers or sending out all your probes & zealots to attack the cannons. Both of which won't work.
For Double proxy gates, put down your 2nd gate ASAP and cancel your gas. Save boosts for zealots. Most people will usually attack with 3 zealots. By this time you will have 1-2 zealots. Pull 3 probes for each zealot he has more than you to tank some hits and with proper micro, you can defend it easily and you will have the economic lead and you can throw down more gates and rush for stalkers.
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Yeah but the problem is, when i scout at 9 ill loose 100 mins, if i scout at 12 he is already set up
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What do you mean by 'lose 100 minerals' ? On 2 player maps you can scout on 12 but on 4 player maps, it is essential to scout at 9 as the scouting information is very vital.
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On October 08 2011 11:26 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 17:17 Latedi wrote:
Well I think you can probably trust Axslav on this one haha. I think he has more experience and knowledge than anyone around here. I'd say get as many stalkers as you possibly can and try to focus fire marauders to prevent concussive (he won't have many of them) and then kite/micro against the marines. Also you have to prevent any bunkers from going down. When engaging use your probes to surround his marines and try to dodge his scvs with the stalkers and focus his bio units. He is going to be doing the same to you though, except it's beneficial to him if it ends up with marine marauder against probes and stalkers against SCVs. Thanks for the reply. I totally agree with you that bunkers can't ever get up, so what I usually try to do here is to focus fire his scvs making bunkers with stalkers and pulling back asap, letting my nexus tank a bit to get more units out. I usually have the feeling that if he brings scvs and I need to pull probes, the terran player benefits way more in the fight (45 to 40 hp on workers help ofc) but mostly because of the fact that his units have higher dps than zealot-stalker, he gets tanking units then (since he doesn't have stim yet). However, lately I've been trying to focus fire marines first (Axlsav recommends going for marines first and afterwards for marauder) but stalker need 5 shots to kill them. :-)
Yeah I pretty much agree with this, what you focus fire is situational.
On October 08 2011 23:43 Amornthep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2011 23:13 Brainiak wrote:
hi, dia/master toss here. Im struggling in the ladder now, because there are a lot of cheesers around high dia/master level. A friend ( high master/gm zerg) suggested, that I should cheese more,to be more familiar with them ( i NEVER cheese) But i dont know how to execute and defend cheeses.
What cheeses has protoss at his disposal in the matchups and how can I defend those in pvp ? As for cheese, you can do the following: PvT: Proxy Gate, 4 Gate, 2/3 Gate Voidray Allin PvP: Cannon Rush, Proxy Gate, 4 Gate PvZ: 4 Gate, 3 Gate Stargate, 4 Gate Blink/DT What 'specific' cheeses are you having troubles with? There also timing attacks in the protoss arsenal that if properly executed, can still be potent at the highest levels.
Cheesing in mirrors is good as when you fail you can learn how to defend them, it also let you know your race more in general. However don't cheese too much heh.
On October 09 2011 00:08 Brainiak wrote:
Yeah but the problem is, when i scout at 9 ill loose 100 mins, if i scout at 12 he is already set up
If you scout his mainand see nothing add a forge, then scout around your base to see what he's up to. 2gate means you need 1 cannon in your mineral line protecting all structures. Against cannon rushes it's all about getting a cannon up first to control space. Remember to tech asap afterwards.
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I don't really cheese that much actually. ;p
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On October 09 2011 00:29 Amornthep wrote:
What do you mean by 'lose 100 minerals' ? On 2 player maps you can scout on 12 but on 4 player maps, it is essential to scout at 9 as the scouting information is very vital.
I dont scout on 9 on 4 player maps, because protoss has nothing to deny scouting for a very long time
I mean by "loosing" 100 mins, that this probe could have kept mining for a longer time
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Unfortunately, you have no choice but to scout at 9 in order to have the chance to stop protoss cheeses such as cannon rushes and proxy gates. Even if he does not cheese, you can still take note of his core/gas/boosts timings to figure out what hes doing and respond accordingly.
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You don't have to scout on 9... but that's playing greedy, if you get cheesed for it, that's life. You should scout after gate on 2 player maps, but scouting on 9 on 4 player maps is essential. I've also started to double scout on big maps like TDA, because proxy gates in the middle are ridiculous if you scout it last...
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On October 09 2011 02:00 mizU wrote:
You don't have to scout on 9... but that's playing greedy, if you get cheesed for it, that's life. You should scout after gate on 2 player maps, but scouting on 9 on 4 player maps is essential. I've also started to double scout on big maps like TDA, because proxy gates in the middle are ridiculous if you scout it last...
So true, those proxies can hurt a lot. I think you can hold with stalkers but it wouldn't be easy by any means.
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Can I also scout him with an 11 scout? doesnt set you that far behind vs a 13 scout, sase does this all the time vs terrans, does that make it viable against protoss?
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I usually scout at 12 and when I see him cannon rushing I just chronoboost my stalker then I just micro it properly then most likely he will send you another probe. I do the usual then I sneak 1 probe out make a pylon in his base then warp in a stalker and a sentry at the entrance and harass the worker line with a few stalkers. But I usually fail when I try to wall off when he plays random and it becomes protoss then cannon rushes me because he ends up getting my core destroyed before I can warp in any unit.
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On October 09 2011 02:30 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 02:00 mizU wrote:
You don't have to scout on 9... but that's playing greedy, if you get cheesed for it, that's life. You should scout after gate on 2 player maps, but scouting on 9 on 4 player maps is essential. I've also started to double scout on big maps like TDA, because proxy gates in the middle are ridiculous if you scout it last... So true, those proxies can hurt a lot. I think you can hold with stalkers but it wouldn't be easy by any means.
You can't hold with stalkers. You have to double gate yourself, the DPS from the zealots mean even if you do kite perfectly, there are 1-2 more zealots in your mineral line, killing your probes.
On October 09 2011 02:49 Brainiak wrote:
Can I also scout him with an 11 scout? doesnt set you that far behind vs a 13 scout, sase does this all the time vs terrans, does that make it viable against protoss?
11 scout?
That seems kind of random...
Is it after a really early gate?
On October 09 2011 03:03 Elijahs123 wrote:
I usually scout at 12 and when I see him cannon rushing I just chronoboost my stalker then I just micro it properly then most likely he will send you another probe. I do the usual then I sneak 1 probe out make a pylon in his base then warp in a stalker and a sentry at the entrance and harass the worker line with a few stalkers. But I usually fail when I try to wall off when he plays random and it becomes protoss then cannon rushes me because he ends up getting my core destroyed before I can warp in any unit.
Chrono a zealot out, then chrono a stalker out after, but you have to kill the cannons first.
Before your zealot pops, pull 3 workers per cannon. 3 is the magic number assuming they aren't more than 50% complete. After that you can have a zealot kill a cannon and send most of your probes back to mine.
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11 scout?
That seems kind of random...
Is it after a really early gate?
No its before a 13 gate, you just scout with the 11th probe and build the gateway with the next one
Doesnt set you behind, because this probe would not mine much anyways in comparison with a 13 supply scout
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EPT
