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Canada13391 Posts
On September 30 2011 22:37 turamn wrote:
How do people feel about the PvT build that's been popping up in GSTL recently? 1 Gate Expo > Double Forge with Blink first and a fast Collosus transisition? It's been doing awesome lately and seems really safe. It also looks like there are quite a few opportunities where you'll have a significant upgrade advantage on your opponent, which you can use to abuse for some effective engagements.
It looks good but i personally feel that 5 gates and one forge then taking a 3rd and moving into double upgrades later on is safer against a number of pushes. Of course if you can micro super well or if the terran doesnt know you are double upgrading for a while you can take a win. However there are some 2 base pushes that will kill you before the 1-1 finishes and you have few units to hold a push.
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It looks like it transitions very well. Creator appeared to favor sitting on 2 base for a while, while Genius was taking a 3rd base. It might not be viable on smaller maps, as you've said, because of some of those pushes that would come before your upgrades finish and you realistically won't have enough to defend. Maps such as Tal'darim, Shakuras, etc appear to have the best setup for the build.
EDIT: I also know Tyler was doing a double forge fast upgrade style quite a while ago. Is this build any different than what he was doing? I don't recall a fast blink in his build, but I could be entirely wrong.
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Double forge is really risky. The 1/1 upgrades aren't that expensive but when you start getting 2/2 it really cuts into your army and you can be very susceptible to bio pushes. Do you have a link to the genius game ? I find it difficult to believe that you can survive while taking fast third and double upgrades.
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Canada13391 Posts
On September 30 2011 23:02 Geiko wrote:
Double forge is really risky. The 1/1 upgrades aren't that expensive but when you start getting 2/2 it really cuts into your army and you can be very susceptible to bio pushes. Do you have a link to the genius game ? I find it difficult to believe that you can survive while taking fast third and double upgrades.
Genius games were from a while ago around the time of tylers 3 gate robo into expo/double ups.
Creator prime was doing a one gate FE into robo and two more gates with double forge upgrades and he would chrono both the whole time AND get a twilight council at 1/2 done research on the upgrades. He would have not cut probes and his army is pretty small because he likes to get blink once 2/2 starts and also makes immortals out of the robotics bay after about 2/3 observers.
With 3 gates and most money not being spent on gateway units I feel its really risky and cuts a lot of corners. Great at higher levels when you understand and can make all those reads that creator does its probably fine but I feel its still going to die to a lot of timings. Getting the double ups once on 3 bases has always seemed safer to me.
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On September 30 2011 23:02 Geiko wrote:
Double forge is really risky. The 1/1 upgrades aren't that expensive but when you start getting 2/2 it really cuts into your army and you can be very susceptible to bio pushes. Do you have a link to the genius game ? I find it difficult to believe that you can survive while taking fast third and double upgrades.
EDIT: Zeromus, if Genius was doing this a while ago, I was not aware of it. Basing this soley off of the context below.
WARNING: SPOILERS FOR SEMIFINALS OF GSTL NSHOSEO v MVP
It was in this mornings GSTL. He basically 4 killed NSHOSeo with it. I don't know if the VODS are up yet. I'll get timings on the third in most of the games when I have access to the VOD.
He took the gold as a third on Metalopolis, but I think you'd have to take into consideration that his opponent in that game ( I believe it was Sculp ) basically threw away a ton of marines and mauraders in a few situations. He tried a crappy little elevator into the main which was very uneffective and then later tried a 4 medivac drop that Genius utterly destroyed, killing 2 of the dropships before they even unloaded. This probably let him feel safe enough to move out and do that.
The other map of interest was on DayBreak vs Jjakji. This may have been a more standard third timing, though. I'll have to re-watch to confirm. Jjakji basically put no pressure on him for most of the game, though. He just kind of sat and macro'd on two bases while leaving his army in the middle otuside of Genius's bases. He didn't really do any significant pressure at all. There was one real engagement, Genius crushed it and then plowed forward into his natural and crushed him. Genius also had a ridiculous Zealot warp in which denied Jjakji's third for a few minutes. Jjakji made no attempt to actually try and compensate for the upgrade from Genius. I believe when the final engagement occured, Genius was on 3/2 and Jjakji was 1/1 or 1/0.
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Canada13391 Posts
On September 30 2011 23:23 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 23:02 Geiko wrote:
Double forge is really risky. The 1/1 upgrades aren't that expensive but when you start getting 2/2 it really cuts into your army and you can be very susceptible to bio pushes. Do you have a link to the genius game ? I find it difficult to believe that you can survive while taking fast third and double upgrades. EDIT: Zeromus, if Genius was doing this a while ago, I was not aware of it. Basing this soley off of the context below. WARNING: SPOILERS FOR SEMIFINALS OF GSTL NSHOSEO v MVP It was in this mornings GSTL. He basically 4 killed NSHOSeo with it. I don't know if the VODS are up yet. I'll get timings on the third in most of the games when I have access to the VOD. He took the gold as a third on Metalopolis, but I think you'd have to take into consideration that his opponent in that game ( I believe it was Sculp ) basically threw away a ton of marines and mauraders in a few situations. He tried a crappy little elevator into the main which was very uneffective and then later tried a 4 medivac drop that Genius utterly destroyed, killing 2 of the dropships before they even unloaded. This probably let him feel safe enough to move out and do that. The other map of interest was on DayBreak vs Jjakji. This may have been a more standard third timing, though. I'll have to re-watch to confirm. Jjakji basically put no pressure on him for most of the game, though. He just kind of sat and macro'd on two bases while leaving his army in the middle otuside of Genius's bases. He didn't really do any significant pressure at all. There was one real engagement, Genius crushed it and then plowed forward into his natural and crushed him. Genius also had a ridiculous Zealot warp in which denied Jjakji's third for a few minutes. Jjakji made no attempt to actually try and compensate for the upgrade from Genius. I believe when the final engagement occured, Genius was on 3/2 and Jjakji was 1/1 or 1/0.
Im currently watching the gstl games so its entirely possible he has updated his old playstyle
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On September 30 2011 23:40 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 23:23 turamn wrote:On September 30 2011 23:02 Geiko wrote:
Double forge is really risky. The 1/1 upgrades aren't that expensive but when you start getting 2/2 it really cuts into your army and you can be very susceptible to bio pushes. Do you have a link to the genius game ? I find it difficult to believe that you can survive while taking fast third and double upgrades. EDIT: Zeromus, if Genius was doing this a while ago, I was not aware of it. Basing this soley off of the context below. WARNING: SPOILERS FOR SEMIFINALS OF GSTL NSHOSEO v MVP It was in this mornings GSTL. He basically 4 killed NSHOSeo with it. I don't know if the VODS are up yet. I'll get timings on the third in most of the games when I have access to the VOD. He took the gold as a third on Metalopolis, but I think you'd have to take into consideration that his opponent in that game ( I believe it was Sculp ) basically threw away a ton of marines and mauraders in a few situations. He tried a crappy little elevator into the main which was very uneffective and then later tried a 4 medivac drop that Genius utterly destroyed, killing 2 of the dropships before they even unloaded. This probably let him feel safe enough to move out and do that. The other map of interest was on DayBreak vs Jjakji. This may have been a more standard third timing, though. I'll have to re-watch to confirm. Jjakji basically put no pressure on him for most of the game, though. He just kind of sat and macro'd on two bases while leaving his army in the middle otuside of Genius's bases. He didn't really do any significant pressure at all. There was one real engagement, Genius crushed it and then plowed forward into his natural and crushed him. Genius also had a ridiculous Zealot warp in which denied Jjakji's third for a few minutes. Jjakji made no attempt to actually try and compensate for the upgrade from Genius. I believe when the final engagement occured, Genius was on 3/2 and Jjakji was 1/1 or 1/0. Im currently watching the gstl games so its entirely possible he has updated his old playstyle
Check them out and post your thoughts on it here. Very interested in hearing other's opinion on the build.
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On September 30 2011 22:37 turamn wrote:
How do people feel about the PvT build that's been popping up in GSTL recently? 1 Gate Expo > Double Forge with Blink first and a fast Collosus transisition? It's been doing awesome lately and seems really safe. It also looks like there are quite a few opportunities where you'll have a significant upgrade advantage on your opponent, which you can use to abuse for some effective engagements.
Yeah I have used it a lot today to try it out. It's really safe defensively but it can't really go offensive fast because charge is really late. I think the keypoints of the build are 1) Get immortals instead of more gateways (staying on 3 for a really long time), it's sooo good you have to try it haha and 2) After you get the upgrades you really need a quick third and fourth if you decide not to push with 2/2, that way you can just make crazy amounts of zealot stalker archon off of 3-4 bases. This was done in GSTL by Creator on 2 bases iirc but it's pretty all in because you get so much stuff on 2 bases.
Warp prisms is probably also useful with this build when you stop making colossus. Notice how they were only used to deal initial DPS and forcing vikings while the zealot stalker army dealt a ton of damage. Then getting archons forcing ghosts if they are not already out as well as being highly effective together with all the zealots. I really like the idea of getting archons and igoring storm. It can just be researched in late game if needed.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 01 2011 00:54 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 22:37 turamn wrote:
How do people feel about the PvT build that's been popping up in GSTL recently? 1 Gate Expo > Double Forge with Blink first and a fast Collosus transisition? It's been doing awesome lately and seems really safe. It also looks like there are quite a few opportunities where you'll have a significant upgrade advantage on your opponent, which you can use to abuse for some effective engagements. Yeah I have used it a lot today to try it out. It's really safe defensively but it can't really go offensive fast because charge is really late. I think the keypoints of the build are 1) Get immortals instead of more gateways (staying on 3 for a really long time), it's sooo good you have to try it haha and 2) After you get the upgrades you really need a quick third and fourth if you decide not to push with 2/2, that way you can just make crazy amounts of zealot stalker archon off of 3-4 bases. This was done in GSTL by Creator on 2 bases iirc but it's pretty all in because you get so much stuff on 2 bases. Warp prisms is probably also useful with this build when you stop making colossus. Notice how they were only used to deal initial DPS and forcing vikings while the zealot stalker army dealt a ton of damage. Then getting archons forcing ghosts if they are not already out as well as being highly effective together with all the zealots. I really like the idea of getting archons and igoring storm. It can just be researched in late game if needed.
You don't necessarily have to be super defensive. When Tyler first started going double forge on his stream he would do a push at 2/2 done with charge and immortals and no colossi, which might be safer than also teching to colo while upgrading since you don't cut as many units as you would when getting the support bay; with the immortal buff doing this might be an extremely good way to secure a third and switch into double robo colossus.
I also have seen him do a standard 38 probe 6gate off double forge when 1/1 is finished. I feel like double forge is really, really good because other than 3 gates and 2 forges, you can add a lot of things from storm to colo to just extra gateways; it's pretty unexplored and in the worst case scenario terran is close-ish to your ups if he's going thorzain-style; in the best case scenario you end up with such an upgrade advantage that you can outmuscle emp and medivacs in the midgame.
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On October 01 2011 01:19 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 00:54 Latedi wrote:On September 30 2011 22:37 turamn wrote:
How do people feel about the PvT build that's been popping up in GSTL recently? 1 Gate Expo > Double Forge with Blink first and a fast Collosus transisition? It's been doing awesome lately and seems really safe. It also looks like there are quite a few opportunities where you'll have a significant upgrade advantage on your opponent, which you can use to abuse for some effective engagements. Yeah I have used it a lot today to try it out. It's really safe defensively but it can't really go offensive fast because charge is really late. I think the keypoints of the build are 1) Get immortals instead of more gateways (staying on 3 for a really long time), it's sooo good you have to try it haha and 2) After you get the upgrades you really need a quick third and fourth if you decide not to push with 2/2, that way you can just make crazy amounts of zealot stalker archon off of 3-4 bases. This was done in GSTL by Creator on 2 bases iirc but it's pretty all in because you get so much stuff on 2 bases. Warp prisms is probably also useful with this build when you stop making colossus. Notice how they were only used to deal initial DPS and forcing vikings while the zealot stalker army dealt a ton of damage. Then getting archons forcing ghosts if they are not already out as well as being highly effective together with all the zealots. I really like the idea of getting archons and igoring storm. It can just be researched in late game if needed. You don't necessarily have to be super defensive. When Tyler first started going double forge on his stream he would do a push at 2/2 done with charge and immortals and no colossi, which might be safer than also teching to colo while upgrading since you don't cut as many units as you would when getting the support bay; with the immortal buff doing this might be an extremely good way to secure a third and switch into double robo colossus. I also have seen him do a standard 38 probe 6gate off double forge when 1/1 is finished. I feel like double forge is really, really good because other than 3 gates and 2 forges, you can add a lot of things from storm to colo to just extra gateways; it's pretty unexplored and in the worst case scenario terran is close-ish to your ups if he's going thorzain-style; in the best case scenario you end up with such an upgrade advantage that you can outmuscle emp and medivacs in the midgame.
Yeah I have been using double forge since beta, I always found it really strong but very underused. I think the problem is surviving while scouting and that's what this build does so well. You kind of need observers to scout how aggressive terran is going to be but you still want upgrades from double forge. I think taking a third with immortals is a really interesting. I will be sure to play around more with this : ) I change my build way too little. I also love the immortals for taking down the rocks and getting a third on TDA haha, gateway units are kina slow with those.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 30 2011 22:37 turamn wrote:
How do people feel about the PvT build that's been popping up in GSTL recently? 1 Gate Expo > Double Forge with Blink first and a fast Collosus transisition? It's been doing awesome lately and seems really safe. It also looks like there are quite a few opportunities where you'll have a significant upgrade advantage on your opponent, which you can use to abuse for some effective engagements.
I've seen all 5 games of this build so here's my analysis. It's quite a cool build with lots of innovations, different from any other build. It gets a robo plus double forge. It relies on 3 gates and a robo pumping immortals plus cannons in the mid game to stop timings instead of the traditional 5-6 gateways. It gets blink over charge as the first upgrade. Then, it prioritizes collosi over charge.
All PvT macro builds have to fulfill certain requirements. They have to be able to stop all the 9:00-10:30 pushes, including ghost stim timing, mass stim timing, medivac timings, and marine tank banshee on 2 base timings(upgrades, cannons, and immortals). It has to be able to stop drops(blink). It has to have some type of big AoE heading into mid game(collosi). It's very interesting how each build addresses these problems. Sometimes there are tradeoffs to how well you can do each thing. Thus, weakness occur such as inability to pressure, weak to drops, weak to certain timings, etc.. The weakness of this build is the inability to pressure plus a slower third than most other builds as well as an inability to harass. This is the case with any build that gets so much tech off of 2 base (obs, double ups, blink, charge, collosi)
In my opinion, sculp, on metalopolis, had the best idea about how to deal with the build. He took an early third before adding his 4th and 5th rax. In addition, he started his upgrades very early as well. However, he tried to do many drops/attacks that did not pan out well and ultimately lost him the game. If he played more safely/passively, it would put him in a great position. I've done similar strategies to this protoss build, and if my terran opponent 1 rax fes into an early 3rd, sometimes I can get 20-30 supply behind in the mid-late game.
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On October 01 2011 07:22 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 22:37 turamn wrote:
How do people feel about the PvT build that's been popping up in GSTL recently? 1 Gate Expo > Double Forge with Blink first and a fast Collosus transisition? It's been doing awesome lately and seems really safe. It also looks like there are quite a few opportunities where you'll have a significant upgrade advantage on your opponent, which you can use to abuse for some effective engagements. I've seen all 5 games of this build so here's my analysis. It's quite a cool build with lots of innovations, different from any other build. It gets a robo plus double forge. It relies on 3 gates and a robo pumping immortals plus cannons in the mid game to stop timings instead of the traditional 5-6 gateways. It gets blink over charge as the first upgrade. Then, it prioritizes collosi over charge. All PvT macro builds have to fulfill certain requirements. They have to be able to stop all the 9:00-10:30 pushes, including ghost stim timing, mass stim timing, medivac timings, and marine tank banshee on 2 base timings(upgrades, cannons, and immortals). It has to be able to stop drops(blink). It has to have some type of big AoE heading into mid game(collosi). It's very interesting how each build addresses these problems. Sometimes there are tradeoffs to how well you can do each thing. Thus, weakness occur such as inability to pressure, weak to drops, weak to certain timings, etc.. The weakness of this build is the inability to pressure plus a slower third than most other builds as well as an inability to harass. This is the case with any build that gets so much tech off of 2 base (obs, double ups, blink, charge, collosi) In my opinion, sculp, on metalopolis, had the best idea about how to deal with the build. He took an early third before adding his 4th and 5th rax. In addition, he started his upgrades very early as well. However, he tried to do many drops/attacks that did not pan out well and ultimately lost him the game. If he played more safely/passively, it would put him in a great position. I've done similar strategies to this protoss build, and if my terran opponent 1 rax fes into an early 3rd, sometimes I can get 20-30 supply behind in the mid-late game.
I totally agree with this  But don't forget you can go for a sick timing when 2/2, charge and extended thermal lances are done. If your opponent gets a quick third that is. That might just be a better option.
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Hey guys, I've just switched to Toss, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me some standard (up to date) PvT and PvZ builds?
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 01 2011 19:51 kollin wrote:
Hey guys, I've just switched to Toss, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me some standard (up to date) PvT and PvZ builds?
For PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196385
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206596
Those are slightly outdated in the opening: people have gone away from 2gate fast obs in favour of either 1gate fe when they feel safe (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269943), or 3gate expand when you are fairly certain you face a bio opening (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202262); this summer lots of pros were trying 2base zealot/archon or zealot/templar builds but in the recent gstl games we have seen colossus make a comeback; i personally prefer colossi first because they naturally keep their medivac count lower than, say, archons.
For PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194376 a little outdated, but imo still a solid way to play the matchup. You have to be a lot more careful if you choose to shark around the map because more and more zergs play aggresively, but that thread should still give you a good idea of what to do.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253932 This is essentially the modern version of the previous build. It can turn into a powerful allin, or a bild that sets you up extremely well into the lategame because you get really fast upgrades.
Note that both of the pvz builds open with a sentry expand, which at the highest level of play has gone out of fashion in favour of either stargate or forge expand openings. I personally still stick to 2gate fe and it works well on most maps, it really comes down to personal preference
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On October 01 2011 20:00 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 19:51 kollin wrote:
Hey guys, I've just switched to Toss, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me some standard (up to date) PvT and PvZ builds? For PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196385http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206596Those are slightly outdated in the opening: people have gone away from 2gate fast obs in favour of either 1gate fe when they feel safe (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269943), or 3gate expand when you are fairly certain you face a bio opening (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202262); this summer lots of pros were trying 2base zealot/archon or zealot/templar builds but in the recent gstl games we have seen colossus make a comeback; i personally prefer colossi first because they naturally keep their medivac count lower than, say, archons. For PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194376 a little outdated, but imo still a solid way to play the matchup. You have to be a lot more careful if you choose to shark around the map because more and more zergs play aggresively, but that thread should still give you a good idea of what to do. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253932 This is essentially the modern version of the previous build. It can turn into a powerful allin, or a bild that sets you up extremely well into the lategame because you get really fast upgrades. Note that both of the pvz builds open with a sentry expand, which at the highest level of play has gone out of fashion in favour of either stargate or forge expand openings. I personally still stick to 2gate fe and it works well on most maps, it really comes down to personal preference
Ah, OK thanks. I'll be sure to check those builds out! :D
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On October 01 2011 19:51 kollin wrote:
Hey guys, I've just switched to Toss, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me some standard (up to date) PvT and PvZ builds?
PvT
1gate FE
1gate 2gas FE
Also 1-2gate robo builds I think are pretty popular for safety.
PvZ
1-3gate FE
forge FE
These are the eco builds, if you want to tech or go aggressive there are even more builds.
Edit: I thought I had clicked f5 ._.
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United States8476 Posts
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By the way monk, about the 2gate stargate PvZ opening. It also allows you to scout with phoenixes or perhaps voidrays without having to research hallucination or get observers. Since the air units also pressure the zerg they are useful in more ways than one, which is really nice.
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how do i beat a thor rush with auto-repair scvs...?
that shit is so god damn imba. specially when he pulls all his god damn workers and has mules...
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On October 02 2011 01:45 xmikeyy17x wrote:
how do i beat a thor rush with auto-repair scvs...?
that shit is so god damn imba. specially when he pulls all his god damn workers and has mules...
Yup that rush is pretty damn strong. You want a sentry or two, immortals if you can and then a lot of zealot stalker. Focus fire the thor with range units and let the zealots slash whatever they can. What you need to do is engaging so that his SCVs cant really repair. For example you can forcefield behind the thor on a ramp to trap it and only a few scvs can repair from that angle. Mineral drilling and then repairing again is probably too much micro for anyone who thor rushes (I just can't imagine anyone skilled doing it heh). That's all advice I can give, it has been ages since i fought this. Would be nice if someone else could write some more.
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EPT
