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Italy12246 Posts
On October 03 2011 02:06 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 22:27 eYeball wrote:
Hello!
What is the proper respone to 3 gate + stargate all-in pvp?
I was going for 3 gate + robotic, when I scouted he was chronoing phoenixes out I went ahead and expand plus dropped down twilight, 1 additional gateway and forge. He did some harass I lost a few probes then he moved out and I just couldn't hold. What do you want to do in this situation? My defense was like 3-4 cannons with 4-5 sentries for all stalker/zealots and blink stalkers. I didn't find any sufficient way to deal with the phoenixes so that's why I am asking. Else it feels kind of like a build order loss. Yes you can't really produce any robo units against this strategy. Blink is good against harass but I feel like getting archons is the best way of dealing with it. Don't expand to fast either because you are still behind because of the robo and any units you produced out of it. After archons I usually get blink and charge on 2 bases to get a good gateway army. The more cheap units you have the less effective the phoenixes will be as they can only kill as much as they have energy, also they can't lift archons and archons does crazy damage if they clump up. This is not perfectly accurate information though because I don't have much experience against stargate. Just don't get too many stalkers, many players follow up the initial harass with an immortal push.
Assuming you open 3gate robo blink, how would you get archons in time for that? I'm pretty sure that straight up 1base zealot/archon isn't a particularly good opener...could you please post a replay?
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On October 03 2011 12:18 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 08:54 Latedi wrote:On October 03 2011 08:05 Sean_Void_Richardson wrote:
im a protoss player high diamond and im looking for some terran that can help me figure out how to beat ghost, what i usually do is chargelot, archon, ht and it does not matter b/c ghosts are to good add me if are interested in helping me/ looking for a practice partner(any race is fine) please have skype or vent and please be over 18 thanks! here is my name/char code
TGxVoid
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or add me ok skype: Void951 The easiest straight up unit counter to ghosts is colossus. However it's all about your build and the engagements. If you clump all your units up EMP is going to rape you while if you use observers, HTs and blink stalkers to snipe the ghosts before the battle you will easily storm the terran to death. Watch any pro PvT macro game and you are sure to see how to kill/die to ghosts. I don't think you'll find any terrans here though, go look in the practice partner thread. Its next to impossible to counter ghosts effectively. As a master protoss who has experience this kind of thing many times, I have found that it is impossible to completely prevent the inevitable carpet bombing of your army with emps. He will snipe your obs and run cloaked ghosts in to do the work. Therefore I have found that the best counter to ghosts is to essentially split as effectively as possible, eat the emps, and retreat for as long as possible before engaging the Terran ball. Forcefield them off if possible, with any energy you may have remaining.
No this is untrue. With superior micro you can effectively either kill the ghosts or get storms off anyway, your tactic is still a good idea though, but only if you can avoid being caught my stimmed MM.
Here are a few tricks which can help microing HTs against ghosts (archons needs basically no micro, just split them like everything else):
- The most basic way of fighting ghosts is by spotting with an observer and then going with 1-2 HTs trying to feedback them. If no observer is available a zealot is also fine, this prevents easy sniping of the observer as well. Good terrans however will stim small groups of MM to run forward and kill off the HT though. I recommend using blink stalkers in this situation, but I can't say I have much experience with that.
- Using warp prisms, preferably with speed upgrade, to protect up to 4 HTs from EMPs. Then you just drop them within range of throwing good storms. If you are careful with them you shouldn't lose them before you have dropped the HTs, 1.4 was really helpful with this. Also make sure you keep moving the warp prism while dropping or terran might be able to anticipate where the HTs will drop and instantly EMP them when they drop.
- Keep the HTs behind your army. This way you can engage with the HTs after the blanket EMPs have gone off. Usually terrans use all of their EMPs as soon as possible since they are afraid the ghosts will die so you don't have to worry much about him saving them. The problem with this tactic is that the MM will kite you pretty easily unless you got good forcefields off before your sentries lost all their energy. Hopefully you have enough zealot archon to chase the army into a wall, otherwise there are more risky things you can do, such as using blink stalkers to block him.
- Always use high ground and xel naga towers to your advantage. They are very important in these engagements.
- If his ghosts are clumped up, consider storming them instead of using feedback. They should die in 2 storms assuming you get really good storms off (storm is 80 damage over 4 seconds and ghosts has 100 HP, meaning you will need them in storms for 5 seconds total).
I wouldn't really say it's "impossible" to counter ghosts with HTs, but I still think the protoss player needs far superior micro in comparison to the terran.
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On October 03 2011 19:13 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:06 Latedi wrote:On October 02 2011 22:27 eYeball wrote:
Hello!
What is the proper respone to 3 gate + stargate all-in pvp?
I was going for 3 gate + robotic, when I scouted he was chronoing phoenixes out I went ahead and expand plus dropped down twilight, 1 additional gateway and forge. He did some harass I lost a few probes then he moved out and I just couldn't hold. What do you want to do in this situation? My defense was like 3-4 cannons with 4-5 sentries for all stalker/zealots and blink stalkers. I didn't find any sufficient way to deal with the phoenixes so that's why I am asking. Else it feels kind of like a build order loss. Yes you can't really produce any robo units against this strategy. Blink is good against harass but I feel like getting archons is the best way of dealing with it. Don't expand to fast either because you are still behind because of the robo and any units you produced out of it. After archons I usually get blink and charge on 2 bases to get a good gateway army. The more cheap units you have the less effective the phoenixes will be as they can only kill as much as they have energy, also they can't lift archons and archons does crazy damage if they clump up. This is not perfectly accurate information though because I don't have much experience against stargate. Just don't get too many stalkers, many players follow up the initial harass with an immortal push. Assuming you open 3gate robo blink, how would you get archons in time for that? I'm pretty sure that straight up 1base zealot/archon isn't a particularly good opener...could you please post a replay?
Aah no I wouldn't get them on one base. It's all about the timing of the all in, usually it's pretty fast and in that situation you can't expand. Some players all in very late though, in which case it might be better to expand. The price of an expansion is 4 zealots basically, as well as an area which is harder to defend. 4 zealots won't matter much though if you have like 80 food and it will be more about positioning and micro. Also if you have enough blink stalkers you should be able to harass him, just don't get into a situation where your stalkers might be lift off until his army comes around. Rather stay on the other side of a cliff etc.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 03 2011 20:04 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 19:13 Teoita wrote:On October 03 2011 02:06 Latedi wrote:On October 02 2011 22:27 eYeball wrote:
Hello!
What is the proper respone to 3 gate + stargate all-in pvp?
I was going for 3 gate + robotic, when I scouted he was chronoing phoenixes out I went ahead and expand plus dropped down twilight, 1 additional gateway and forge. He did some harass I lost a few probes then he moved out and I just couldn't hold. What do you want to do in this situation? My defense was like 3-4 cannons with 4-5 sentries for all stalker/zealots and blink stalkers. I didn't find any sufficient way to deal with the phoenixes so that's why I am asking. Else it feels kind of like a build order loss. Yes you can't really produce any robo units against this strategy. Blink is good against harass but I feel like getting archons is the best way of dealing with it. Don't expand to fast either because you are still behind because of the robo and any units you produced out of it. After archons I usually get blink and charge on 2 bases to get a good gateway army. The more cheap units you have the less effective the phoenixes will be as they can only kill as much as they have energy, also they can't lift archons and archons does crazy damage if they clump up. This is not perfectly accurate information though because I don't have much experience against stargate. Just don't get too many stalkers, many players follow up the initial harass with an immortal push. Assuming you open 3gate robo blink, how would you get archons in time for that? I'm pretty sure that straight up 1base zealot/archon isn't a particularly good opener...could you please post a replay? Aah no I wouldn't get them on one base. It's all about the timing of the all in, usually it's pretty fast and in that situation you can't expand. Some players all in very late though, in which case it might be better to expand. The price of an expansion is 4 zealots basically, as well as an area which is harder to defend. 4 zealots won't matter much though if you have like 80 food and it will be more about positioning and micro. Also if you have enough blink stalkers you should be able to harass him, just don't get into a situation where your stalkers might be lift off until his army comes around. Rather stay on the other side of a cliff etc.
Ah ok, you confused me there for a sec. I have only faced stargate allins like twice, once i kept all my stuff in my base to protect my probes and got steamrolled, the other i went for the basetrade and dt's saved my day. Never really tried blink harass since im afraid for my cute probies, how do you deal with that? Do you leave 3-4 stalkers at home?
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On October 02 2011 13:35 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 09:57 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 08:32 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 05:18 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 04:20 aZealot wrote:
Is 4 Gate still viable in PvP with patch 1.4? Or should I be focussing on some kind of Robo based build? Like a 3 Gate Robo with a Gate/Robo/Gate/Gate? I can't think of any decisive reason why not based on the patch notes. Although the improved immortal range might hurt if he goes super-fast immortals while you're building stalkers. As a caveat to that, however, from what I can tell (at least down in my league) defensive three-gates are gradually becoming more popular and they can shut down four-gates pretty handily whilst also transitioning well. Then again, "focussing" on four-gating seems a bit risky to me. Its not exactly a build you can rely on. The ramp vision change makes 4gates total coin flips. If your opponent makes 2 sentries against a 4gate, the 4gate will lose. So yes, I think some builds involving a robo are safest. I'm not quite sure how to play a safe pvp, it seems very coin flippy. Thanks, forgot about the ramp vision change. That said, a couple of sentries were good for holding off rushes even before the patch. Either way 4-gate was risky before and its getting riskier over time; whether from patches or people just flat out learning counters. As far as "safe" PvP goes; personally I think his best bet is some kinda defensive 3-gate. Then transition to Blink or Robo. I think there are guides drifting around here somewhere. Something like this perhaps: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Defensive_3_Gate_(vs._Protoss) Nah, people are 1gate expanding now, and you're sooo far behind if you 3gate and they 1gate expo. Or if someone straight techs to blink or robo etc. And no, you couldn't hold off a properly executed 4gate pre patch with sentries.
1gate nexus is viable in PvP now?
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On October 03 2011 20:08 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 20:04 Latedi wrote:On October 03 2011 19:13 Teoita wrote:On October 03 2011 02:06 Latedi wrote:On October 02 2011 22:27 eYeball wrote:
Hello!
What is the proper respone to 3 gate + stargate all-in pvp?
I was going for 3 gate + robotic, when I scouted he was chronoing phoenixes out I went ahead and expand plus dropped down twilight, 1 additional gateway and forge. He did some harass I lost a few probes then he moved out and I just couldn't hold. What do you want to do in this situation? My defense was like 3-4 cannons with 4-5 sentries for all stalker/zealots and blink stalkers. I didn't find any sufficient way to deal with the phoenixes so that's why I am asking. Else it feels kind of like a build order loss. Yes you can't really produce any robo units against this strategy. Blink is good against harass but I feel like getting archons is the best way of dealing with it. Don't expand to fast either because you are still behind because of the robo and any units you produced out of it. After archons I usually get blink and charge on 2 bases to get a good gateway army. The more cheap units you have the less effective the phoenixes will be as they can only kill as much as they have energy, also they can't lift archons and archons does crazy damage if they clump up. This is not perfectly accurate information though because I don't have much experience against stargate. Just don't get too many stalkers, many players follow up the initial harass with an immortal push. Assuming you open 3gate robo blink, how would you get archons in time for that? I'm pretty sure that straight up 1base zealot/archon isn't a particularly good opener...could you please post a replay? Aah no I wouldn't get them on one base. It's all about the timing of the all in, usually it's pretty fast and in that situation you can't expand. Some players all in very late though, in which case it might be better to expand. The price of an expansion is 4 zealots basically, as well as an area which is harder to defend. 4 zealots won't matter much though if you have like 80 food and it will be more about positioning and micro. Also if you have enough blink stalkers you should be able to harass him, just don't get into a situation where your stalkers might be lift off until his army comes around. Rather stay on the other side of a cliff etc. Ah ok, you confused me there for a sec. I have only faced stargate allins like twice, once i kept all my stuff in my base to protect my probes and got steamrolled, the other i went for the basetrade and dt's saved my day. Never really tried blink harass since im afraid for my cute probies, how do you deal with that? Do you leave 3-4 stalkers at home?
To behonest I try out new things most of the time against this kind of strategy because I don't face it very much either. What i defend with is usually cannons though as they cant be lift up by the phoenixes, same goes for archon. If you have 2 bases and a scout for pushes you can leave an archon in your main mineral line. If you are on one base you probably don't want to have more defense than 1 cannon unless he has a lot of phoenixes It might be safer to just turtle though because he should be able to kill off some of your stalkers if he's using his army in a smart way (read: not turtling). As long he has enough phoenixes to grab enough stalkers to lower the dps until he gets his army there it will be a problem for you, but if you have enough stalkers or know his army is far away somewhere it's possible to move out. In the end you might have to go for archons on one base if he keeps producing units on one base I think, not sure about this.
On October 03 2011 20:26 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 13:35 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 09:57 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 08:32 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 05:18 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 04:20 aZealot wrote:
Is 4 Gate still viable in PvP with patch 1.4? Or should I be focussing on some kind of Robo based build? Like a 3 Gate Robo with a Gate/Robo/Gate/Gate? I can't think of any decisive reason why not based on the patch notes. Although the improved immortal range might hurt if he goes super-fast immortals while you're building stalkers. As a caveat to that, however, from what I can tell (at least down in my league) defensive three-gates are gradually becoming more popular and they can shut down four-gates pretty handily whilst also transitioning well. Then again, "focussing" on four-gating seems a bit risky to me. Its not exactly a build you can rely on. The ramp vision change makes 4gates total coin flips. If your opponent makes 2 sentries against a 4gate, the 4gate will lose. So yes, I think some builds involving a robo are safest. I'm not quite sure how to play a safe pvp, it seems very coin flippy. Thanks, forgot about the ramp vision change. That said, a couple of sentries were good for holding off rushes even before the patch. Either way 4-gate was risky before and its getting riskier over time; whether from patches or people just flat out learning counters. As far as "safe" PvP goes; personally I think his best bet is some kinda defensive 3-gate. Then transition to Blink or Robo. I think there are guides drifting around here somewhere. Something like this perhaps: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Defensive_3_Gate_(vs._Protoss) Nah, people are 1gate expanding now, and you're sooo far behind if you 3gate and they 1gate expo. Or if someone straight techs to blink or robo etc. And no, you couldn't hold off a properly executed 4gate pre patch with sentries. 1gate nexus is viable in PvP now?
It is possible but you have to make sure no early aggression is coming, and preferably make sure he doesn't scout it either. For example if you see no 3stalker rush or 4gate it should be pretty easy to 1gate FE. You will need to get 3 gates up asap, sometimes cannons for defense and then tech blink. Here's the link to the one I like the most, fake 4gate: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259038
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Just played a really frustrating game against a terran. I was up in expansions, and played so I thought solid, but i really had to outmuscle him in the late game. Im kind of lost in lategame pvt. I play ht, chargelot, archon collossi, which i though was the ultimate army mix. But he just turteled, and in the fightst he just emped my whole army with mass ghosts , stimmed and a moved. Am i doing something wrong?
http://drop.sc/40195
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I have a question about PvZ, the use of FE into chargealot/archon push (around 8-10min?)
How does that generally work out in plat+ ladder?
and is this 2base push still valid if the zerg will double expand as responce to your FE?
Just tried it out for the first time on ladder, my timings of my tech buildings where way off, but luckly my opponent decided for a bane bust, and chargalots/archons against mass lings/banes, was a easy win seeing i could simply outproduce him and attack move to his base :p.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 03 2011 21:44 Brainiak wrote:Just played a really frustrating game against a terran. I was up in expansions, and played so I thought solid, but i really had to outmuscle him in the late game. Im kind of lost in lategame pvt. I play ht, chargelot, archon collossi, which i though was the ultimate army mix. But he just turteled, and in the fightst he just emped my whole army with mass ghosts , stimmed and a moved. Am i doing something wrong? http://drop.sc/40195
Well, you just bm him the whole game...
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United States8476 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:25 Xenocide_EU wrote:
I have a question about PvZ, the use of FE into chargealot/archon push (around 8-10min?)
How does that generally work out in plat+ ladder?
and is this 2base push still valid if the zerg will double expand as responce to your FE?
Just tried it out for the first time on ladder, my timings of my tech buildings where way off, but luckly my opponent decided for a bane bust, and chargalots/archons against mass lings/banes, was a easy win seeing i could simply outproduce him and attack move to his base :p.
It's a free win for the zerg if he properly reacts with mass roach.
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Yeah I am sorry for that. I posted this, so i can learn pvt, thus i dont have to bm anymore 
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I feel like a roach bust will always kill your forge and gateway, you just need to remake in time and in range of cannons - never let him bust completely through. 3 cannons vs a roach bust is a thin line between victory and defeat
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On October 03 2011 23:07 ZeromuS wrote:How do you respond to a Zerg who goes for a one base roach bust against a Forge FE? I lost today even though I made 2 extra cannons. The zerg was able to snipe the forge and gateway after killing my first cannon. The first cannon was able to be targeted then the others werent doing enough damage to defend my wall since the Roaches could sit at max range and snipe the front buildings. Is it my cannon placement? My cannon timing? I had only the one cannon complete when the roaches arrived and the other 2 were warping in as the roaches hit me. http://drop.sc/40204Thanks If I tried to scout and saw no expo so i figured it was going to be roaches but I guess I just dont know how or where or when to put down extra cannons to defend 
Think about it like this: You are extremely far ahead in eco, so it doesn't matter how much you spend on defense. Immidiately when you saw no natural you should have made as many cannons at the front as possible, sent probes to patrol for nyduses while getting sentries. I think you could have hade at least those 3 cannons done in time and probably more warping in. If you make like 5 cannons you will still be ahead because when the danger is over you just get something to scout with while double chronoboosting probes.
On October 03 2011 23:25 GoonFFS wrote:
I feel like a roach bust will always kill your forge and gateway, you just need to remake in time and in range of cannons - never let him bust completely through. 3 cannons vs a roach bust is a thin line between victory and defeat
Ooh I see a goon posting. This is pretty much true but if you have a perfect wall the roaches cannot kill off the wall without being shot back at.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 03 2011 23:07 ZeromuS wrote:How do you respond to a Zerg who goes for a one base roach bust against a Forge FE? I lost today even though I made 2 extra cannons. The zerg was able to snipe the forge and gateway after killing my first cannon. The first cannon was able to be targeted then the others werent doing enough damage to defend my wall since the Roaches could sit at max range and snipe the front buildings. Is it my cannon placement? My cannon timing? I had only the one cannon complete when the roaches arrived and the other 2 were warping in as the roaches hit me. http://drop.sc/40204Thanks If I tried to scout and saw no expo so i figured it was going to be roaches but I guess I just dont know how or where or when to put down extra cannons to defend
You lose your first probe for no reason. You try to go into his base and scout, but there was really nothing you could have gained from scouting then.
You send a 2nd probe. When you see no expansion, you immediately need to put down at least 2 more cannons. The timing is key. On most maps, you're dead if you don't have at least 2 cannons up by the time he attacks. The exact number of cannons and placement vary heavily on the map. On that map, I would say you need around 4 up in front, because you absolute cannot lose your forge or the roaches can easily run up the ramp. Don't be stingy.
I have seen protosses hold off a roach bust with just 1 initial cannon done when the roaches come on Termius Re Re. The other cannons, however, were in perfect positioning in the back where they couldn't be targeted, which isn't viable on most maps.
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Canada13391 Posts
On October 03 2011 23:40 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 23:07 ZeromuS wrote:How do you respond to a Zerg who goes for a one base roach bust against a Forge FE? I lost today even though I made 2 extra cannons. The zerg was able to snipe the forge and gateway after killing my first cannon. The first cannon was able to be targeted then the others werent doing enough damage to defend my wall since the Roaches could sit at max range and snipe the front buildings. Is it my cannon placement? My cannon timing? I had only the one cannon complete when the roaches arrived and the other 2 were warping in as the roaches hit me. http://drop.sc/40204Thanks If I tried to scout and saw no expo so i figured it was going to be roaches but I guess I just dont know how or where or when to put down extra cannons to defend You lose your first probe for no reason. You try to go into his base and scout, but there was really nothing you could have gained from scouting then. You send a 2nd probe. When you see no expansion, you immediately need to put down at least 2 more cannons. The timing is key. On most maps, you're dead if you don't have at least 2 cannons up by the time he attacks. The exact number of cannons and placement vary heavily on the map. On that map, I would say you need around 4 up in front, because you absolute cannot lose your forge or the roaches can easily run up the ramp. Don't be stingy. I have seen protosses hold off a roach bust with just 1 initial cannon done when the roaches come on Termius Re Re. The other cannons, however, were in perfect positioning in the back where they couldn't be targeted, which isn't viable on most maps.
Thanks latedi and 4kmonk. Ill probably practice the placement of my cannons so they can shoot and not be shot back at some more. With more cannons I would also assume that one cannon being focused down thats too far front means that some roaches are being hit anyway so its not as easy/free for them yes?
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On October 03 2011 22:33 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 22:25 Xenocide_EU wrote:
I have a question about PvZ, the use of FE into chargealot/archon push (around 8-10min?)
How does that generally work out in plat+ ladder?
and is this 2base push still valid if the zerg will double expand as responce to your FE?
Just tried it out for the first time on ladder, my timings of my tech buildings where way off, but luckly my opponent decided for a bane bust, and chargalots/archons against mass lings/banes, was a easy win seeing i could simply outproduce him and attack move to his base :p.
It's a free win for the zerg if he properly reacts with mass roach.
And a free win for you if he doesn't go roach. Meaning, anything like mass lings,infestors, mass spines into mutas, hydras, banelings (not that you'd expect to see much bling/hydras anyway).
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On October 03 2011 20:26 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 13:35 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 09:57 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 08:32 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 05:18 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 04:20 aZealot wrote:
Is 4 Gate still viable in PvP with patch 1.4? Or should I be focussing on some kind of Robo based build? Like a 3 Gate Robo with a Gate/Robo/Gate/Gate? I can't think of any decisive reason why not based on the patch notes. Although the improved immortal range might hurt if he goes super-fast immortals while you're building stalkers. As a caveat to that, however, from what I can tell (at least down in my league) defensive three-gates are gradually becoming more popular and they can shut down four-gates pretty handily whilst also transitioning well. Then again, "focussing" on four-gating seems a bit risky to me. Its not exactly a build you can rely on. The ramp vision change makes 4gates total coin flips. If your opponent makes 2 sentries against a 4gate, the 4gate will lose. So yes, I think some builds involving a robo are safest. I'm not quite sure how to play a safe pvp, it seems very coin flippy. Thanks, forgot about the ramp vision change. That said, a couple of sentries were good for holding off rushes even before the patch. Either way 4-gate was risky before and its getting riskier over time; whether from patches or people just flat out learning counters. As far as "safe" PvP goes; personally I think his best bet is some kinda defensive 3-gate. Then transition to Blink or Robo. I think there are guides drifting around here somewhere. Something like this perhaps: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Defensive_3_Gate_(vs._Protoss) Nah, people are 1gate expanding now, and you're sooo far behind if you 3gate and they 1gate expo. Or if someone straight techs to blink or robo etc. And no, you couldn't hold off a properly executed 4gate pre patch with sentries. 1gate nexus is viable in PvP now?
It is possible but you have to make sure no early aggression is coming, and preferably make sure he doesn't scout it either. For example if you see no 3stalker rush or 4gate it should be pretty easy to 1gate FE. You will need to get 3 gates up asap, sometimes cannons for defense and then tech blink. Here's the link to the one I like the most, fake 4gate: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259038[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the link... sounds SUPER ballsy, but I like it.
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On October 03 2011 20:48 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 20:08 Teoita wrote:On October 03 2011 20:04 Latedi wrote:On October 03 2011 19:13 Teoita wrote:On October 03 2011 02:06 Latedi wrote:On October 02 2011 22:27 eYeball wrote:
Hello!
What is the proper respone to 3 gate + stargate all-in pvp?
I was going for 3 gate + robotic, when I scouted he was chronoing phoenixes out I went ahead and expand plus dropped down twilight, 1 additional gateway and forge. He did some harass I lost a few probes then he moved out and I just couldn't hold. What do you want to do in this situation? My defense was like 3-4 cannons with 4-5 sentries for all stalker/zealots and blink stalkers. I didn't find any sufficient way to deal with the phoenixes so that's why I am asking. Else it feels kind of like a build order loss. Yes you can't really produce any robo units against this strategy. Blink is good against harass but I feel like getting archons is the best way of dealing with it. Don't expand to fast either because you are still behind because of the robo and any units you produced out of it. After archons I usually get blink and charge on 2 bases to get a good gateway army. The more cheap units you have the less effective the phoenixes will be as they can only kill as much as they have energy, also they can't lift archons and archons does crazy damage if they clump up. This is not perfectly accurate information though because I don't have much experience against stargate. Just don't get too many stalkers, many players follow up the initial harass with an immortal push. Assuming you open 3gate robo blink, how would you get archons in time for that? I'm pretty sure that straight up 1base zealot/archon isn't a particularly good opener...could you please post a replay? Aah no I wouldn't get them on one base. It's all about the timing of the all in, usually it's pretty fast and in that situation you can't expand. Some players all in very late though, in which case it might be better to expand. The price of an expansion is 4 zealots basically, as well as an area which is harder to defend. 4 zealots won't matter much though if you have like 80 food and it will be more about positioning and micro. Also if you have enough blink stalkers you should be able to harass him, just don't get into a situation where your stalkers might be lift off until his army comes around. Rather stay on the other side of a cliff etc. Ah ok, you confused me there for a sec. I have only faced stargate allins like twice, once i kept all my stuff in my base to protect my probes and got steamrolled, the other i went for the basetrade and dt's saved my day. Never really tried blink harass since im afraid for my cute probies, how do you deal with that? Do you leave 3-4 stalkers at home? To behonest I try out new things most of the time against this kind of strategy because I don't face it very much either. What i defend with is usually cannons though as they cant be lift up by the phoenixes, same goes for archon. If you have 2 bases and a scout for pushes you can leave an archon in your main mineral line. If you are on one base you probably don't want to have more defense than 1 cannon unless he has a lot of phoenixes It might be safer to just turtle though because he should be able to kill off some of your stalkers if he's using his army in a smart way (read: not turtling). As long he has enough phoenixes to grab enough stalkers to lower the dps until he gets his army there it will be a problem for you, but if you have enough stalkers or know his army is far away somewhere it's possible to move out. In the end you might have to go for archons on one base if he keeps producing units on one base I think, not sure about this. Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 20:26 mizU wrote:On October 02 2011 13:35 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 09:57 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 08:32 Oreo7 wrote:On October 02 2011 05:18 Lightspeaker wrote:On October 02 2011 04:20 aZealot wrote:
Is 4 Gate still viable in PvP with patch 1.4? Or should I be focussing on some kind of Robo based build? Like a 3 Gate Robo with a Gate/Robo/Gate/Gate? I can't think of any decisive reason why not based on the patch notes. Although the improved immortal range might hurt if he goes super-fast immortals while you're building stalkers. As a caveat to that, however, from what I can tell (at least down in my league) defensive three-gates are gradually becoming more popular and they can shut down four-gates pretty handily whilst also transitioning well. Then again, "focussing" on four-gating seems a bit risky to me. Its not exactly a build you can rely on. The ramp vision change makes 4gates total coin flips. If your opponent makes 2 sentries against a 4gate, the 4gate will lose. So yes, I think some builds involving a robo are safest. I'm not quite sure how to play a safe pvp, it seems very coin flippy. Thanks, forgot about the ramp vision change. That said, a couple of sentries were good for holding off rushes even before the patch. Either way 4-gate was risky before and its getting riskier over time; whether from patches or people just flat out learning counters. As far as "safe" PvP goes; personally I think his best bet is some kinda defensive 3-gate. Then transition to Blink or Robo. I think there are guides drifting around here somewhere. Something like this perhaps: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Defensive_3_Gate_(vs._Protoss) Nah, people are 1gate expanding now, and you're sooo far behind if you 3gate and they 1gate expo. Or if someone straight techs to blink or robo etc. And no, you couldn't hold off a properly executed 4gate pre patch with sentries. 1gate nexus is viable in PvP now? It is possible but you have to make sure no early aggression is coming, and preferably make sure he doesn't scout it either. For example if you see no 3stalker rush or 4gate it should be pretty easy to 1gate FE. You will need to get 3 gates up asap, sometimes cannons for defense and then tech blink. Here's the link to the one I like the most, fake 4gate: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259038
How is it possible to hold against blink all-in, which you can't scout before you put down the nexus?
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@SchfiftyFive
so the one guy was right in suggesting that u go 2 gate robo its my pvp go to build high diamond here.
but u can't wait till ur maxed it just won't work on only one base. with ur obs u should be able to see what ur oppenent went. if we went any other build except for urs u should be able to have collo out b4 him. when u have two attack with ur army. some key points here
at 6mins if he hasn't attacked u its not an aggro 4 gate.
at 6 45ish if he hasn't attacked u its not an aggro 3gate robo
at around 7:30 is when blink attacks should come but u should know because of obs.
at around 6:20 u should put down support bay and when it finishes begin production of collo.
in the begining if he doesn't push only get one sentry and warp in more if attack comes
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EPT
