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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Even straight blink stalkers i feel often aren't enough because my third on many maps is pretty exposed, and he can easily either deny that or wreck havoc in my main; often i will split my army in two groups, only to the one at the third destroyed by all his mutas and lings. So, are there any specific techniques to defend more easily a third vs muta heavy builds? | ||
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Shunjal
United States482 Posts
Hey, I'm a Platinum level protoss that has a high win rate against zerg, a 50% win rate against protoss, but I lose almost all of my terran games. I don't have an effective build, and I don't know when to attack. I tried watching oGsMC replays against STBomber, but I couldn't learn much from it: I ripped MC's build but, even though I keep probe production steady and my money low, I'm always massacred by marauders with slow. Any suggestions? Give Histers PvT build a shot, it's worked wonders for me in that matchup. Mostly involves an army composition of Immortals, Sentries, Zealot with a fast armor upgrade. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470 | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On October 05 2011 01:49 Teoita wrote: In PvZ i always have trouble if he goes for muta/ling; specifically, i feel like i can't defend a third, nor put any pressure on him when he mass expands behind his harass. Even straight blink stalkers i feel often aren't enough because my third on many maps is pretty exposed, and he can easily either deny that or wreck havoc in my main; often i will split my army in two groups, only to the one at the third destroyed by all his mutas and lings. So, are there any specific techniques to defend more easily a third vs muta heavy builds? Post a replay. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On October 05 2011 01:55 Shunjal wrote: Give Histers PvT build a shot, it's worked wonders for me in that matchup. Mostly involves an army composition of Immortals, Sentries, Zealot with a fast armor upgrade. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470 I wouldn't recommend a build that specifically goes for a timing attack for a newer player. If they keep using it, they'll climb the ladder, but won't actually improve and will eventually plateau. | ||
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
On October 05 2011 01:49 Teoita wrote: In PvZ i always have trouble if he goes for muta/ling; specifically, i feel like i can't defend a third, nor put any pressure on him when he mass expands behind his harass. Even straight blink stalkers i feel often aren't enough because my third on many maps is pretty exposed, and he can easily either deny that or wreck havoc in my main; often i will split my army in two groups, only to the one at the third destroyed by all his mutas and lings. So, are there any specific techniques to defend more easily a third vs muta heavy builds? Defending against the specific challenges that Muta/Ling present can be quite difficult. I've found that being able to identify that muta/ling is coming before that point and trying to pressure before then is very key. If you see them sitting on two base, you can be sure it's one of two things (assuming they aren't just really bad or doing something insane ). It's going to be ling/infestor or ling/muta. The major tell to something like this is the number of spines that they are throwing up. If you see 3+ spines, they are more than likely preparing to fast tech up to one of the two. Make room for a robo to get an obs or grab hallucinate to do a phoenix flyover. Once you've identified the build, you can respond properly. HT / Archon has reasonable success against both, as storm destroy's lings and can also help against mutalisk balls. I've also found that if your opening allows for any aggressive play, that you can easily inflict damage on them. On maps with ramps, I've outright won the game with a prism+4 sentry drop with zealot warp ins. Any kind of pressure before the muta's pop is very difficult for them to stave off, unless they go insane on the spines, as all they are going to have are zerglings and mutas. In regards to defending a third specifically, Cannon's can only go so far. Make sure you can take your third in a strategically reasonable location, so that you can defend all of your bases without getting pulled too far out of position. You likely do not want to place a reactionary stargate, as your phoenix will easily be outproduced. There's also a ZvP Muta/ling thread here, which may have some insight that can help you. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On October 05 2011 01:59 NrGmonk wrote: I wouldn't recommend a build that specifically goes for a timing attack for a newer player. If they keep using it, they'll climb the ladder, but won't actually improve and will eventually plateau. I prefer looking at builds, taking the main idea, and incorporating them more, versus using a specific build. Hister focusing on how immortals can be really strong early game, so I like to go for 1 or 2-gate robo, then expo, and hit a timing with 4-5 immortals, zeals, and sentries. It's REALLY strong. | ||
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legek
Slovenia153 Posts
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Geiko
France2053 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:11 legek wrote: I am masters zerg player and i decided to try with protoss. I am looking for safe PvP and PvT build orders and/or replays. Just some generals buildorder on which i can work on. Thanks http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266786 | ||
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Audemed
United States893 Posts
Is there any viability to phoenix builds vs T? It seems to me that marines do just too much damage (and are too available) to allow phoenixes to do their deed. | ||
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ePBuckets
Canada207 Posts
PvT, my best matchup, i go 1gate FE into 3gates, then drop a robo get 2 obs and immortals, proceed with 1/1/1 deny if i scout that, if not when safe i drop the twilight council for charge and tech to high templars. i get a warp prism and put my templars inside, and make some archons, and when ready push, upgrades along the way and 3rd when safe implied. PvP, my second best matchup? i play it a touch more reactively, but more on the safe side. basically its a 3gate opener with robo after 3 gates. chrono obs and immortal #1 out. obs will scout and see a few things: 1) Colossus: my reaction would be immediately drop a stargate and get a second immortal, and then when possible start chronoing out phoenix. while still making warp gate units. 2) Blink stalkers: keep making immortals, get twilight council for blink of my own. 3) Charge/Archons: drop robo bay, get colossus on 1 base, turtle up, wait for his attack, generally we can keep his zealots contained enough for my colossus to kill them all, and my other units will kill his archons. 4) Phoenix: get twilight council, 4th gateway, and get blink, then tech to high templars. all of these imply expoing when safe, getting an expand safely in pvp is usually game defining. PvZ, this used to be my best match up, then turned into my worst matchup, and now i'm bouncing back. i do FFE into 3 gates and a robo. i have learned that forcefields are ridiculously good, and now holding off pushes while turling at a natural is easy. i start +1 attack early that way when i make my first immortal its almost halfway done so i can drop my twilight council. when they both pop i get blink and +2 attack. i stop making probes and i start only making stalkers/sentries/immortals and i get the forward pylon and push when everything finishes. the above strat is generally for a player going roaches, this is determined by good scouting. if we scout ling muta or ling infestor, instead of getting lots of immortals its better to get hightemplars, storm, and extra gateways, using the robo at this point for obs/wp drops. generally we won't get to see many hydras because generally players get them after roaches, and which point our first +2 blink+immortal push would stomp. on the occasion we do see them however its quite easy to just go straight to colossus from our opener. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On October 05 2011 05:21 Audemed wrote: I typically do stargate play vs zerg to both deny mutas and to do harass of my own, but I'm often at a loss as to what to properly transition into. 7-10 phoenix often forces hydras, and I'll typically get charge/sentry/HT to deal with it, but when roaches are mixed in I find I get stomped badly, and I'm not really sure how to fix that. Is there any viability to phoenix builds vs T? It seems to me that marines do just too much damage (and are too available) to allow phoenixes to do their deed. Just get stalkers instead of zealots and you should be able to kill off most zerg units. Zealots are good against hydras but sucks against roaches, stalkers on the other hand are decent against both, and even good combined with forcefields. You can use phoenixes against terran but I don't recommend it  You really need to keep terran in his base with harass and expand behind that, then make sure you get enough units to defendif he pushes, also storm or colossi is a good transition if you force a lot of marines. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
I do the gate+cyber at the front with a building moved an inch back on 1 side so theres room for 1 zealot. Zealots, sentry and stalkers can fit through it but archons get stuck mid-lategame. Is there a wall that blocks lings with just 1 zealot but also fits an archon through? | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On October 05 2011 07:34 TheGreenMachine wrote: In PvZ how can you wall so that any unit can come out? I do the gate+cyber at the front with a building moved an inch back on 1 side so theres room for 1 zealot. Zealots, sentry and stalkers can fit through it but archons get stuck mid-lategame. Is there a wall that blocks lings with just 1 zealot but also fits an archon through? Hmm that is a good question, I think archons are just too fat actually but I'm not 100% sure about this. If it's late game you should have a good amount of money though so just destroy they gateway and build a new one. The wall between your natural main is usually not that important to block with a zealot, rather make a wall in your natural. For example sometimes a zerg will nydus me late game and at that point i just destroy my own wall to get into the main faster, this can really make the difference between saving the nexus/tech or not. A really well made wall wouldn't need that though. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On October 05 2011 07:34 TheGreenMachine wrote: In PvZ how can you wall so that any unit can come out? I do the gate+cyber at the front with a building moved an inch back on 1 side so theres room for 1 zealot. Zealots, sentry and stalkers can fit through it but archons get stuck mid-lategame. Is there a wall that blocks lings with just 1 zealot but also fits an archon through? Archons are bigger than zealot/stalker. You have to brink your HTs down the ramp, or through your wall *BEFORE* you morph them. | ||
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PeggyHill
1494 Posts
On October 05 2011 01:49 Teoita wrote: In PvZ i always have trouble if he goes for muta/ling; specifically, i feel like i can't defend a third, nor put any pressure on him when he mass expands behind his harass. Even straight blink stalkers i feel often aren't enough because my third on many maps is pretty exposed, and he can easily either deny that or wreck havoc in my main; often i will split my army in two groups, only to the one at the third destroyed by all his mutas and lings. So, are there any specific techniques to defend more easily a third vs muta heavy builds? A good zerg won't let you get a third up without blink or archon or storm if he gets mutas out unscouted. As said above, 2 base zerg in PvZ usually means ling/muta or ling/infestor. A big tell is no roach and lots of lings, before you see either muta or infestor. Also seeing 4 gas. Personally I always open (after ffe or 1 gate expo) +2 weapons blink in PvZ, and this will either kill the zerg before he gets infestor/muta or will hit right as they are popping out. Also I have a good tool to deal with muta, blink, and its an easy transition into archon/storm. If you don't have blink vs muta, you will struggle. If you are trying to get blink as you are being harrassed, you are in trouble, and will need to play very well to tech to blink without taking too much damage. I think turtling on 2 base until blink or archons is ok. 1 archon at a mineral line will be safe or at least and efficient trade vs muta. You need to be good at splitting up your army vs muta. Stargate is another option, but most likely you will need to turtle on 2 base, with 2 stargates to get up enough phoenix (+1 air can be a good idea as well). Phoenix are ok but he will just make hydra, and pheonix are useless. Also don't forget guardian shield, it's awesome vs muta. | ||
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PeggyHill
1494 Posts
On October 05 2011 05:21 Audemed wrote: I typically do stargate play vs zerg to both deny mutas and to do harass of my own, but I'm often at a loss as to what to properly transition into. 7-10 phoenix often forces hydras, and I'll typically get charge/sentry/HT to deal with it, but when roaches are mixed in I find I get stomped badly, and I'm not really sure how to fix that. Is there any viability to phoenix builds vs T? It seems to me that marines do just too much damage (and are too available) to allow phoenixes to do their deed. If you force hydra, transition into collossus. 7-10 pheonix is too many imo. IMO there are three good stargate openers vs zerg: - 1 void ray into 2-4 phoenix - 1 single void ray, used to scout and maybe deny a third (not likely) - 3 void ray into 2-3 phoenix All three require you not to lose your void ray/s. If you lose it, you have lost because at best stargate does very little actual damage, the big thing is scouting and map control. After any stargate opening where you have forced hydra, you should transition into collossus. I always drop a robo after I've finished void ray production, on 2 base you should be able to get phoenix and collossus at the same time. It's important to note that zerg can deal with stargate with infestor as well, in this case zealot/ht/archon would be preferable. As for versus terran, phoenix can be used vs a 111, to lift tanks and snipe banshees/raven. I often open stargate if I see a bunker, the 1st phoenix is very good for scouting, and you can stop phoenix if its more standard mmm. If you build 3-4 phoenix you can harrass the mineral line, maybe force turrets. This can give you enough time to expand and tech, but if the terran is smart he will just attack once he sees phoenix. Phoenix are also very good for stopping drops, but as you say marines laugh at phoenix. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On October 05 2011 11:54 PeggyHill wrote: If you force hydra, transition into collossus. 7-10 pheonix is too many imo. IMO there are three good stargate openers vs zerg: - 1 void ray into 2-4 phoenix - 1 single void ray, used to scout and maybe deny a third (not likely) - 3 void ray into 2-3 phoenix All three require you not to lose your void ray/s. If you lose it, you have lost because at best stargate does very little actual damage, the big thing is scouting and map control. After any stargate opening where you have forced hydra, you should transition into collossus. I always drop a robo after I've finished void ray production, on 2 base you should be able to get phoenix and collossus at the same time. It's important to note that zerg can deal with stargate with infestor as well, in this case zealot/ht/archon would be preferable. As for versus terran, phoenix can be used vs a 111, to lift tanks and snipe banshees/raven. I often open stargate if I see a bunker, the 1st phoenix is very good for scouting, and you can stop phoenix if its more standard mmm. If you build 3-4 phoenix you can harrass the mineral line, maybe force turrets. This can give you enough time to expand and tech, but if the terran is smart he will just attack once he sees phoenix. Phoenix are also very good for stopping drops, but as you say marines laugh at phoenix. Actually phonixes are really good against hydras but they need support from other units. I gotta try phoenixes vs 1-1-1 ^^ | ||
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iamnotcreativeatall
6 Posts
So since this is pretty much my first post please dont go to harsh on me^^ Ok i have big problems in the PvZ matchup when my opponents is going for mutalisks. The problem about this is that i get constantly harassed and that i can hardly get a third up and almost never a fourth. And in my eyes there is no unit in the whole protoss arsenal who can do anything aiganst mutalisks. Here are a few exemples: Archons: They are way to slow and fat so that they usually cant get into your main if you walled off with just 1 tile in between. They are pretty useless to defend. High templar: Mutalisk fly fast and storm does not really hit them. its just easily dodged and aigan templar are totally slow. Blinkstalker: not only do large number of Mutalisks easily take out Mutalisks, aigan they are to slow to catch them. Blinkstalkers do work if you are on 2 base but not longer. Phenix: You wont ever be abel to get up enough phenix in time, even with 2 stargates. Also it leaves you very vulnerabel to sudden techswitches of the zerg since they are completly useless vs anything but mutalisks. Even if I somehow manage to get up a decent army and just push the zerg he has about 20 spinecrawler and baserace is definetly not an option. And i also cant force him to engage me and no point of the game he needs to fight my army ONCE. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On October 05 2011 20:13 iamnotcreativeatall wrote: Hi everyone! So since this is pretty much my first post please dont go to harsh on me^^ Ok i have big problems in the PvZ matchup when my opponents is going for mutalisks. The problem about this is that i get constantly harassed and that i can hardly get a third up and almost never a fourth. And in my eyes there is no unit in the whole protoss arsenal who can do anything aiganst mutalisks. Here are a few exemples: Archons: They are way to slow and fat so that they usually cant get into your main if you walled off with just 1 tile in between. They are pretty useless to defend. High templar: Mutalisk fly fast and storm does not really hit them. its just easily dodged and aigan templar are totally slow. Blinkstalker: not only do large number of Mutalisks easily take out Mutalisks, aigan they are to slow to catch them. Blinkstalkers do work if you are on 2 base but not longer. Phenix: You wont ever be abel to get up enough phenix in time, even with 2 stargates. Also it leaves you very vulnerabel to sudden techswitches of the zerg since they are completly useless vs anything but mutalisks. Even if I somehow manage to get up a decent army and just push the zerg he has about 20 spinecrawler and baserace is definetly not an option. And i also cant force him to engage me and no point of the game he needs to fight my army ONCE. Post a replay | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 05 2011 20:13 iamnotcreativeatall wrote: Hi everyone! So since this is pretty much my first post please dont go to harsh on me^^ Ok i have big problems in the PvZ matchup when my opponents is going for mutalisks. The problem about this is that i get constantly harassed and that i can hardly get a third up and almost never a fourth. And in my eyes there is no unit in the whole protoss arsenal who can do anything aiganst mutalisks. Here are a few exemples: Archons: They are way to slow and fat so that they usually cant get into your main if you walled off with just 1 tile in between. They are pretty useless to defend. High templar: Mutalisk fly fast and storm does not really hit them. its just easily dodged and aigan templar are totally slow. Blinkstalker: not only do large number of Mutalisks easily take out Mutalisks, aigan they are to slow to catch them. Blinkstalkers do work if you are on 2 base but not longer. Phenix: You wont ever be abel to get up enough phenix in time, even with 2 stargates. Also it leaves you very vulnerabel to sudden techswitches of the zerg since they are completly useless vs anything but mutalisks. Even if I somehow manage to get up a decent army and just push the zerg he has about 20 spinecrawler and baserace is definetly not an option. And i also cant force him to engage me and no point of the game he needs to fight my army ONCE. A replay would be good. However I'm surprised you're finding the problem being getting a third or fourth. In my experience zerg tend to hit with mutalisks much earlier than that unless you're trying to go for a super-quick third for some reason. I used to have problems against mutas myself until recently. My advice would be to give blink Stalkers another chance. I've found that getting early blink in most of my PvZs has worked wonders for surviving mutas and roaches. The other thing to say is to get sentries for guardian shield. And don't forget your upgrades. | ||
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