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On September 28 2011 03:58 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 03:39 QTIP. wrote:On September 28 2011 03:17 JonnyLaw wrote:
Against a zerg with broods your army composition and it's effectiveness will really change depending on their other units.
Against ling/infestor/brood with few to no roaches storms can melt the support and you can snipe broods. Additionally, the void rays can easily be ineffective vs large numbers of infestors.
Honestly, many games I feel as if colossus are the best answer to help deal with broods lords. The initial strike does good dps but the broodlings die very quickly after the first strike. This allows your stalkers and colossus to pick away at the units defending the brood lords before eventually securing a strong enough position to go for the blink and snipe.
Also, against brood lords I personally enjoy zealot/dt warp prism/proxy pylon harass at expansions. Sniping the greater spire and other tech structures can be game changing. I'm not certain how many zergs who have rage quit ladder games after this occurs. A lot though. Hmmm... I take back what I said about Infestor/Ling support. You are definitely right that Storm/ Feedback can deal with the Infestor/Ling support for the Broods very quickly. Yes Void Rays can really suck vs Large # of Infestors, but I think with proper control (spreading, flanking) they are still the best way to deal with 5+ Broods. There are multiple places on every map where Zerg can engage with the Broodlords in a very protected position. Of course, the lack of Broodlord mobility should be abused by the Protoss player as well.... I still think what I said holds true for Infestor / Roach support. I like what you said about DT / Warpprism harass. There's no reason to not add a DT shrine in a long macro game, especially when Zerg is going for Hive Tech. I really should experiment with it more. Of course void rays are the easiest way to deal with them but a good amount of stalkers and archons deal with them easily as well, as long as you have other units do deal with the ground party. The archons can kill broodlings so fast, and tank them, that the stalkers will have no problem killing all the brood lords. I have won engagements pretty easily against this kind of composition even when they have around 10 brood lords. I feel it requires quite a bit of micro though and if I'm unlucky the game could end right there.
I don't think you can win engagements very easily vs 10 Broodlords (with HT/Stalker/Immortal), unless the Zerg has virtually no ground army, or you caught them way out of position. Please post a replay if you can. I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm just saying it's sub-optimal. As you said - VR's are the best way in dealing with them, and you can lose in situations that are based on luck / one micro mistake otherwise.
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Regarding all of the trouble with EARLY scouting When FFE'ing, I've found it beneficial to keep 2 probes outside of your base on scouting duty. 1 just outside of the creep spread, so he can't see it, and one halfway between you and your opponents bases. At approx 4:30-6 minutes you need to run in with your probe next to his base and see what kills it. You want to see how many units, if the expo is up, and if possible, how many drones are there/ if there's gas or not. If you see a hatchery and you see drones there, then you're in good shape, but you need to take your other probe that was halfway between bases and quickly scout to see if he's putting his third up. If he doesn't start his 3rd by ~ 8-9, then he's going to fall behind, as 2 base toss beats 2 base Z.
As soon as you see him take it, you are going to want to either take a 3rd of your own within a minute or two, OR mass up and attack. If you do the latter, you want to be attacking right as his third hatchery finishes, as this will be the time he will be making drones, most likely, PLUS the 300 minerals he invested will not have payed for itself yet, and you should be at an advantage. Also, I've found with Zergs that will try to outexpand you and outmacro you when u FFE, they sometimes can fall behind in tech, due to going a lot more minerals for drones, and less gas, and You might be able to catch them off guard with a few DT's. Do not rely on them though, and as soon as you see that he has detection make them into archons(fairly obvious).
Also, I have a question:
How would a Chargelot/HT combination work against various zerg combinations? What would counter it? I would think HT storming behind the army and then Chargelots coming up in front, forcing the roaches/hyrdras to run back and kite into the storm would be very strong. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. My initial thoughts would be a roach with an ENOURmous amount of infestors to perhaps fungal the zealots, and NP the high temps? not sure how difficult this would be...
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So I'm a diamond level protoss and I need to a good robo build for pvp. 4 gate just isn't cutting it anymore. Also, how do you deal with a ton of mutalisks as protoss. I lose everytime I go against them and it makes me a sad panda.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 28 2011 04:11 aSpanishGoat wrote:
So I'm a diamond level protoss and I need to a good robo build for pvp. 4 gate just isn't cutting it anymore. Also, how do you deal with a ton of mutalisks as protoss. I lose everytime I go against them and it makes me a sad panda.
I think the best way to play the matchup is to go robo into blink, eventually expanding and getting chargelot/archon/immortal; the advantages are that 1) it's not "countered" by any other build; you are in a reasonable position against any opening 2) you often have the option to either allin or play a macro game, depending on your scouting info. See this guide here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772 for more info 
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On September 28 2011 04:08 Golduck36 wrote:
Regarding all of the trouble with EARLY scouting When FFE'ing, I've found it beneficial to keep 2 probes outside of your base on scouting duty. 1 just outside of the creep spread, so he can't see it, and one halfway between you and your opponents bases. At approx 4:30-6 minutes you need to run in with your probe next to his base and see what kills it. You want to see how many units, if the expo is up, and if possible, how many drones are there/ if there's gas or not. If you see a hatchery and you see drones there, then you're in good shape, but you need to take your other probe that was halfway between bases and quickly scout to see if he's putting his third up. If he doesn't start his 3rd by ~ 8-9, then he's going to fall behind, as 2 base toss beats 2 base Z.
As soon as you see him take it, you are going to want to either take a 3rd of your own within a minute or two, OR mass up and attack. If you do the latter, you want to be attacking right as his third hatchery finishes, as this will be the time he will be making drones, most likely, PLUS the 300 minerals he invested will not have payed for itself yet, and you should be at an advantage. Also, I've found with Zergs that will try to outexpand you and outmacro you when u FFE, they sometimes can fall behind in tech, due to going a lot more minerals for drones, and less gas, and You might be able to catch them off guard with a few DT's. Do not rely on them though, and as soon as you see that he has detection make them into archons(fairly obvious).
Also, I have a question:
How would a Chargelot/HT combination work against various zerg combinations? What would counter it? I would think HT storming behind the army and then Chargelots coming up in front, forcing the roaches/hyrdras to run back and kite into the storm would be very strong. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. My initial thoughts would be a roach with an ENOURmous amount of infestors to perhaps fungal the zealots, and NP the high temps? not sure how difficult this would be...
This unit composition is quite good in the mid game but zealots suck more the longer the game goes on, assuming you still have good economies and make optimal armies. What you really want to do is to use the zealots to trap units, like chasing roaches into a wall or if you have enough, surround them. When they are trapped you can then easily storm them, chances are that your HTs will not be fast enough to storm an army which is kiting you.
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On September 28 2011 04:05 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 03:58 Latedi wrote:On September 28 2011 03:39 QTIP. wrote:On September 28 2011 03:17 JonnyLaw wrote:
Against a zerg with broods your army composition and it's effectiveness will really change depending on their other units.
Against ling/infestor/brood with few to no roaches storms can melt the support and you can snipe broods. Additionally, the void rays can easily be ineffective vs large numbers of infestors.
Honestly, many games I feel as if colossus are the best answer to help deal with broods lords. The initial strike does good dps but the broodlings die very quickly after the first strike. This allows your stalkers and colossus to pick away at the units defending the brood lords before eventually securing a strong enough position to go for the blink and snipe.
Also, against brood lords I personally enjoy zealot/dt warp prism/proxy pylon harass at expansions. Sniping the greater spire and other tech structures can be game changing. I'm not certain how many zergs who have rage quit ladder games after this occurs. A lot though. Hmmm... I take back what I said about Infestor/Ling support. You are definitely right that Storm/ Feedback can deal with the Infestor/Ling support for the Broods very quickly. Yes Void Rays can really suck vs Large # of Infestors, but I think with proper control (spreading, flanking) they are still the best way to deal with 5+ Broods. There are multiple places on every map where Zerg can engage with the Broodlords in a very protected position. Of course, the lack of Broodlord mobility should be abused by the Protoss player as well.... I still think what I said holds true for Infestor / Roach support. I like what you said about DT / Warpprism harass. There's no reason to not add a DT shrine in a long macro game, especially when Zerg is going for Hive Tech. I really should experiment with it more. Of course void rays are the easiest way to deal with them but a good amount of stalkers and archons deal with them easily as well, as long as you have other units do deal with the ground party. The archons can kill broodlings so fast, and tank them, that the stalkers will have no problem killing all the brood lords. I have won engagements pretty easily against this kind of composition even when they have around 10 brood lords. I feel it requires quite a bit of micro though and if I'm unlucky the game could end right there. I don't think you can win engagements very easily vs 10 Broodlords (with HT/Stalker/Immortal), unless the Zerg has virtually no ground army, or you caught them way out of position. Please post a replay if you can. I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm just saying it's sub-optimal. As you said - VR's are the best way in dealing with them, and you can lose in situations that are based on luck / one micro mistake otherwise.
Hmm I don't have a replay because I don't really save them but I can describe how you should engage the zerg army. You want guardian shields up and archons/immortals at the front to tank the brood lords. Keep feedbacking any infestors and storm everything you can. When you are free of fungals, or at least some of your army can move, and most roaches are dead you start sutter stepping forward with your whole army until you are under the brood lords. Then it's easy for the stalkers to kill the brood lords. The most important thing is that you do not blink your stalkers forward in front of your tank units because they will die to brood lords/roach/ling/fungal in a few seconds.
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Just curious, how do most high level protosses here play off after losing the FFE pylon/forge to a 6pool on Tal Darim? Say you defend it with no probe losses with the cannon built in your main - what is the best way to follow up? I know there should be some initial zealot pressure to force some lings out, but after that I'm usually not certain how I should play it out. Expand and go for a 2 base timing attack? Or just flat out play a normal macro game? I could be wrong, but I feel like going for a longer game gives time for the zerg to recover from its initial all-in and on a map where PvZ is difficult (for me at least) I feel somewhat pressured the longer the game goes on.
Thanks in advance!
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United States8476 Posts
On September 28 2011 08:59 Zealot Lord wrote:
Just curious, how do most high level protosses here play off after losing the FFE pylon/forge to a 6pool on Tal Darim? Say you defend it with no probe losses with the cannon built in your main - what is the best way to follow up? I know there should be some initial zealot pressure to force some lings out, but after that I'm usually not certain how I should play it out. Expand and go for a 2 base timing attack? Or just flat out play a normal macro game? I could be wrong, but I feel like going for a longer game gives time for the zerg to recover from its initial all-in and on a map where PvZ is difficult (for me at least) I feel somewhat pressured the longer the game goes on.
Thanks in advance!
Scout his base and see both his expo timing and his gas. If he's not getting gas/speed, you can expand off of a zealot and a stalker. If he's getting speed, you'll need something like a 3 gate sentry expand to expand. Then, you can proceed to play a normal game as if you just opened 3 gate sentry, except you'll have a slightly econ lead over your opponent.
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PvZ, scouting a hatch first with pylon scout
Is it worth it to go gate/gate/core double chrono stalker to push the zerg and force spine or lings?
( I transition into a double gas/forge expand with sentries and +1 weapons and check for a fast 3rd)
What do you think?
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On September 29 2011 05:58 Ada wrote:
PvZ, scouting a hatch first with pylon scout
Is it worth it to go gate/gate/core double chrono stalker to push the zerg and force spine or lings?
( I transition into a double gas/forge expand with sentries and +1 weapons and check for a fast 3rd)
What do you think?
Sounds pretty good, his speed will be late and you will be able to harass a lot with those stalkers, just remember to back off in time. Not sure about the follow but use it if it works, looks solid.
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I'm tired of 1 base play in PvP. How can I expand safely behind immortals against opponent going 1 base all in???
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On September 29 2011 12:23 Catchafire2000 wrote:
I'm tired of 1 base play in PvP. How can I expand safely behind immortals against opponent going 1 base all in???
in pvp you just CANT be safe while expanding...except if you go for a quick expo on a ramp expo map like shakuras and even then, you need awesome FF! (and it needs to be a fast expo or ffe unless collos might be knocking at your door or even archons!)
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I need some help guys, I'm in the middle of a hard slump (4-15 or so) and it really is bringing my whole game down, been losing to dumb strategies I could normally hold (Muta harass being one of them) and it's like a spiral of losing, and playing worse which leads to more losing. I just can't seem to have well thought out plan and being able to pull through.
I'm also having a tough time just choosing a build I want to use in each match up, I have a vague notion of which ones I like but when the game starts I just draw a blank.
Could some one lend me a hand?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 29 2011 13:20 Mikelius wrote:
I need some help guys, I'm in the middle of a hard slump (4-15 or so) and it really is bringing my whole game down, been losing to dumb strategies I could normally hold (Muta harass being one of them) and it's like a spiral of losing, and playing worse which leads to more losing. I just can't seem to have well thought out plan and being able to pull through.
I'm also having a tough time just choosing a build I want to use in each match up, I have a vague notion of which ones I like but when the game starts I just draw a blank.
Could some one lend me a hand?
Depending on what level you are, maybe you should give these builds a try:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266786
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On September 29 2011 12:34 pure_protoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 12:23 Catchafire2000 wrote:
I'm tired of 1 base play in PvP. How can I expand safely behind immortals against opponent going 1 base all in??? in pvp you just CANT be safe while expanding...except if you go for a quick expo on a ramp expo map like shakuras and even then, you need awesome FF! (and it needs to be a fast expo or ffe unless collos might be knocking at your door or even archons!)
Huh? You can absolutely safely expand in PvP as long as you know what your opponent is doing, and feel safe expanding.
If they go for heavy robo but no colossus, if you have sentry you can expand. If you see them go for fast colossi, and you already have some voidrays, it's possible to expand under some situations.
Immortals + voidrays + zealots pack a pretty hard punch. After both players 1-gate-robo, usually an expansion is thrown up by both players.
Or go for blink stalkers and take a far expo. It's totally possible to expand in PvP.
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I have some questions regarding PvT 1 gate 1 gas expand:
How many chronoboosts do I spend on probes?
When do I put down the nexus?
When do I put down the robo or extra gates?
When do I get my 2nd gas?
What do I produce out of my gateway while WG is researching?
Anyone got a replay of a "normal" executed PvT 1 gate 1 gas expo?
Thanks <3
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I have a question about Protoss mechanics in general
I see every pro protoss building many gates in the mid-game, although they can't support all of them (if they would constantly build units out of them)
Wouldn't it be better to build less gates and produce units constantly instead
They build up many gates and then don't produce units out of those gates for quite some time
Every Top Protoss i watched does this, but i don't understand why
What am i missing?
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@Wilko: it is required to rebuild your army very fast after a big battle.
For example, I once had 24 gates that had no use until a battle. I got +48 supply of units in 5 seconds.
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I'm not talking about the maxed-situation of late-game tho
Wouldn't it be better to have half of the amount of gates and like 18 more zealots in the army (assuming they would be enough gates to match your income rate)
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EPT
