The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 70

On September 27 2011 03:48 Latedi wrote:
Yes I also think blink stalkers into HTs/archons is better against 2base muta but 2 stargates is also a possible strategy. I use it from time to time because it's fun but it's only good for the mid game.

On September 27 2011 03:53 Mikelius wrote:


Isn't 2 Stargate super weak to a Roach/Hydra/Infester tech swtich?

On September 27 2011 03:42 theredone wrote:
On the muta ling pvz discussion-
Q-upgrades - the only way i can win agains z - my first thought is oooh muta ling armor up is sooo good. But then my mind steps back and says something like - but does that mesh with your whole gameplan, does that compile with your build.

the Q - What are your preferred upgrade priorities and how much of a priority are said ups against a Z using the heavier style of 2base muta/ling?

2nd Q - BW style i'm liking 2cannons and an archon if i see more that 7 -10 mutas - however I am not ubergosu milenium edition mega-pro. At my level (rising platinum) this is a dead stop to most muta action - Is this a good idea? will this stay a good idea as i rise through the ranks? is there a stupid obvious reason this isn't done on a pro level and my nubbin mind can't find it? (to be fair it's blink stalkers first then templar when i see muta's so don't think the archon is like my only plan. it is just a lynch pin to being able to push out when there are more than 10 muta's out)

last note - sometimes i get real good timing and scout the spire with a hallupheonix while my oppo has like 4 -7 muta's and force his hand to make something happen before i'm totally covered. I really really like this. I want it to happen more. Can anyone help me with earlier signs from P's perspective that i'm gonna see muta/ling?

War of the Worlds
+ Show Spoiler +
A- treat the colosus timing push like other slow moving super damaging compositions. Understand that if you are not going to be warring in the worlds yourself you must have a different and more proactive approach to your opponent. Warp prisms help, if you can drop 4zealots with the threat of a million more right when he walks out of this base you can buy tons of time for your expo/macro/positions or force a base trade where you have a head start.
I believe Time (IS.Time?) said that against colo in pvp he likes to expand cross map knowing that if he see's his opponent at the expo he can just rush their main and try to get high ground in their base-i've used this with limited success. Again colossi - not mobile. Blink stalkers, stargate play, warp prism play all mobile and fast and hopefully something you can back up from and still have units for the big engagement at the end.

The last thing (seriously need more coffee)
Archons pvp do a weird thing, it's similar to hellions tvt. it's not how good they are and how much they win things, it's how quickly they kill the units you want dead in the fight. Impulse damage you might call it. Basicly the colosi player will have more zeals than he'd like and possibly went in for charge. On a big open field archons can 1) tear zeals hard really really hard. this is their job in this engagement bring the zealot count down so there's not buffer for the colossi. Now your new and improved immortals and or blink stalkers have a better chance of getting some positioning on the colossi.

On September 27 2011 03:42 theredone wrote:
On the muta ling pvz discussion-
Q-upgrades - the only way i can win agains z - my first thought is oooh muta ling armor up is sooo good. But then my mind steps back and says something like - but does that mesh with your whole gameplan, does that compile with your build.

the Q - What are your preferred upgrade priorities and how much of a priority are said ups against a Z using the heavier style of 2base muta/ling?

2nd Q - BW style i'm liking 2cannons and an archon if i see more that 7 -10 mutas - however I am not ubergosu milenium edition mega-pro. At my level (rising platinum) this is a dead stop to most muta action - Is this a good idea? will this stay a good idea as i rise through the ranks? is there a stupid obvious reason this isn't done on a pro level and my nubbin mind can't find it? (to be fair it's blink stalkers first then templar when i see muta's so don't think the archon is like my only plan. it is just a lynch pin to being able to push out when there are more than 10 muta's out)

last note - sometimes i get real good timing and scout the spire with a hallupheonix while my oppo has like 4 -7 muta's and force his hand to make something happen before i'm totally covered. I really really like this. I want it to happen more. Can anyone help me with earlier signs from P's perspective that i'm gonna see muta/ling?

War of the Worlds
+ Show Spoiler +
A- treat the colosus timing push like other slow moving super damaging compositions. Understand that if you are not going to be warring in the worlds yourself you must have a different and more proactive approach to your opponent. Warp prisms help, if you can drop 4zealots with the threat of a million more right when he walks out of this base you can buy tons of time for your expo/macro/positions or force a base trade where you have a head start.
I believe Time (IS.Time?) said that against colo in pvp he likes to expand cross map knowing that if he see's his opponent at the expo he can just rush their main and try to get high ground in their base-i've used this with limited success. Again colossi - not mobile. Blink stalkers, stargate play, warp prism play all mobile and fast and hopefully something you can back up from and still have units for the big engagement at the end.

The last thing (seriously need more coffee)
Archons pvp do a weird thing, it's similar to hellions tvt. it's not how good they are and how much they win things, it's how quickly they kill the units you want dead in the fight. Impulse damage you might call it. Basicly the colosi player will have more zeals than he'd like and possibly went in for charge. On a big open field archons can 1) tear zeals hard really really hard. this is their job in this engagement bring the zealot count down so there's not buffer for the colossi. Now your new and improved immortals and or blink stalkers have a better chance of getting some positioning on the colossi.

On September 27 2011 07:14 Chelch wrote:
Can anyone give me a general how-to on PvZ? I open FFE on every map, but I can't beat Zergs no matter what they do, I just don't understand what I should be doing in relation to what he does. I just need to know how to play as standard as possible, because I don't even know that. I can't find any replays of this, but I've been looking :\

I'm seriously totally lost in this matchup, I've been trying to fix my PvZ on my own for weeks and weeks, but Im at the end of my tether. I'm fine with diamond PvP/PvT, I just can't beat Diamond Zergs

On September 27 2011 04:03 Geiko wrote:


-Upgrades vs mutas : ONLY attack. Armor is pointless as you'll never be fighting the mutas.

-2 cannons per base and high templar support combined with blink stalker is the correct answer. I find storm to be better then archons in this case.

-Early tells of 2 base muta : no roaches when you go in to poke, some speedlings, and a lot of spines. But thisd could also mean 2 base infestor/ling. Get stalkers in both cases until you figure it out, stalkers are good vs both.

-If you don't want to war of the world, you've got 2 options. Manage to mass >5 void rays without dying (risky). Go for zealot archon (+ immortal optionally). You are correct, if you wish to go zealot archon, taking a far away expansion is the way to go. Zealot archon is VERY cost effective vs colo based army as long as the colo count stays under 4 or 5. During that time, you should try to get an econ advantage by expanding (3rd).

On a side note, colo players will NOT be getting charge for their zealot, especially if you're going zealot archon, you have to get charge, so it doesn't matter to him whether or not he has charge, in the end your zealots will bump in to his the same way.

On September 27 2011 07:33 Latedi wrote:


The most standard in my opinion would be:

1. Open forge FE, you seem to have gotten this down.
2. Make a stargate to pressure the zerg into making more queens and spores, and hopefully eventually hydras if he's on 3 bases.
3. Transition into colossus while pressuring and take a third.
4. Make a deathball of colossus sentry stalker, maybe with support of other units such as HTs or voidrays and get aggressive while expanding behind it.

If your opponent stays on 2 bases you can't really pressure him that hard, make sure to scout for mutas because then you need to get either twilight council or stargates and cannons in your mineral lines. If he's doing anything else you will be fine with 5-6 gates and a robo making colossus. Most likely he will be going infestor, you just have to have good micro against them, or go HT if you like to feedback instead.

The usual scenario involves zerg taking a fast third and defending air harassment with queens and spores. It's possible he won't have to get hydras but colossi is a safe choice.

Then in late game zerg will begin adding brood lords like 90% of the time. By then you need either a good amount of stalkers and AoE to kill everything else, including broodlings, or some void rays.

Standard game flow chart:

You forge FE -> Zerg takes three fast bases -> You make air units and start pressuring -> Zerg defends using queens and spores until infestors or hydras are out -> You transition into colossi (hopefully already teching) and take a third -> Zerg get's aggressive and/or takes a fourth -> You defend, make a deathball and then get aggressive (and takes a fourth if you feel it's needed) -> Entering late game zerg starts getting brood lords -> You scout this and make an appropriate army to deal with it.

From there on it's all about getting the most out of battles while trying to protect and deny new bases.

On September 27 2011 07:40 QTIP. wrote:

This flow chart is how most of my games go. Be really really conscious of Broodlord timings. The last you thing you want to see is 5+ Broods when your maxed out without any VR's.

On September 27 2011 12:08 eugalp wrote:

Could you elaborate a bit more as to when exactly you start making voids?

On September 27 2011 12:08 eugalp wrote:

Could you elaborate a bit more as to when exactly you start making voids?

On September 28 2011 02:36 QTIP. wrote:


Keep an eye on hive timings. Use hallucination to continuously scout if you notice that your opponent is suspiciously staying on low-tech for too long. As Latedi mentioned, Voids are good against Hive-tech Zerg units, so you should really mix them into your army. Whatever you do, don't Max vs a Zerg without Void Rays unless he is still on Lair (for some odd reason).

On September 28 2011 02:57 Latedi wrote:


I don't really agree on this actually, maxing out on other unit compositions can also be viable but it will indeed have a harder time against brood lords. My favorite army uses immortal HT stalker, with a few sentries and archons. These untis are often enough to kill anything if you get enough of the more expensive ones out but it would nearly impossible to fight a zerg army with maybe 15+ brood lords. This usually means you have been too passive though.

On September 28 2011 03:17 JonnyLaw wrote:
Against a zerg with broods your army composition and it's effectiveness will really change depending on their other units.

Against ling/infestor/brood with few to no roaches storms can melt the support and you can snipe broods. Additionally, the void rays can easily be ineffective vs large numbers of infestors.

Honestly, many games I feel as if colossus are the best answer to help deal with broods lords. The initial strike does good dps but the broodlings die very quickly after the first strike. This allows your stalkers and colossus to pick away at the units defending the brood lords before eventually securing a strong enough position to go for the blink and snipe.

Also, against brood lords I personally enjoy zealot/dt warp prism/proxy pylon harass at expansions. Sniping the greater spire and other tech structures can be game changing. I'm not certain how many zergs who have rage quit ladder games after this occurs. A lot though.

On September 28 2011 03:39 QTIP. wrote:


Hmmm... I take back what I said about Infestor/Ling support. You are definitely right that Storm/ Feedback can deal with the Infestor/Ling support for the Broods very quickly. Yes Void Rays can really suck vs Large # of Infestors, but I think with proper control (spreading, flanking) they are still the best way to deal with 5+ Broods. There are multiple places on every map where Zerg can engage with the Broodlords in a very protected position. Of course, the lack of Broodlord mobility should be abused by the Protoss player as well....

I still think what I said holds true for Infestor / Roach support. I like what you said about DT / Warpprism harass. There's no reason to not add a DT shrine in a long macro game, especially when Zerg is going for Hive Tech. I really should experiment with it more.