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malaan
365 Posts
Surely there is a better way to deal with this than having burn all your money on cannons in every corner of your base. I just beat a guy by the skin of my teeth - he doulbe nydus my 5th base and my main, sent lings to my 3rd expansion. I had a colossus / blinkstalker / archon army so had to try and defend all 3 spots somehow. Luckily he mis clicked his lings into my army on the way back to def my main, so I felt like I won because of that. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On December 24 2012 07:39 Aira wrote: I´m looking for some strong all ins to get some points before season ending. What would you recommend? PvZ : Immortal Allin? PvP: ? PvT: 6 Gate? Currently getting a ton of wins vs terran using the blinkstalker / observer into emergency DT's if he holds well. The best thing is that it's not completely all in, since if he moves out you just blink in his main and kill everything then come home to defend. If you dont do damage, you make a DT shrine and a warp prism. Attack his natural with stalkers (dont over comit, just poke) to lure his attention away while you drop DT's in his main. Target SCV's while crhonoboosting and expanding yourself. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
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Marimokkori
United States306 Posts
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do against this. | ||
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cRsJC
Brazil2 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:00 Marimokkori wrote: I've been losing to mass banshees and PF lately. Just turtle turtle turtle and fly around with banshees, a couple vikings + ravens. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do against this. U need scout that early to change your army composition. They usually turtle and make a billion of turrets to deny your scout. Then u can research hallucination and use hallucinated phoenixes to pass through them and see if he is making mass bc, mass banshee or mass tank. If he is massing banshee, just make some cannons in your mineral line and start stalker/archon/ht production. Expand like crazy and throw some stargates when u are almost 200/200. And Mothership is essential bro, make it asap because u need its energy. If cannnons are not enough u can put hts in your mineral line and a obs ahead to see them coming, like some guys do against mutas (: When u are 200/200 u can push and kill some expos and PF. U can abuse the recall in base trade. Dont forget the upgrades dude, u can start your air upgrades when u stabilize your 4th base. After the big engage, start carrier production with those stargates that u have made. | ||
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PeggyHill
1494 Posts
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PeggyHill
1494 Posts
On December 26 2012 20:19 malaan wrote: Currently getting a ton of wins vs terran using the blinkstalker / observer into emergency DT's if he holds well. The best thing is that it's not completely all in, since if he moves out you just blink in his main and kill everything then come home to defend. If you dont do damage, you make a DT shrine and a warp prism. Attack his natural with stalkers (dont over comit, just poke) to lure his attention away while you drop DT's in his main. Target SCV's while crhonoboosting and expanding yourself. Another great all in that isn't really all in is a 2 base colossus timing. Basically you cut probes and and upgrades to get quick colossus + 6 gate, gogo. More effective the greedier you are so requires good scouting, usually can get 2 obs out of your robo while your bay is warping in. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On December 27 2012 00:00 Marimokkori wrote: I've been losing to mass banshees and PF lately. Just turtle turtle turtle and fly around with banshees, a couple vikings + ravens. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do against this. 1. Show us a replay, because your description doesn't tell us anything about the timings or how late into the game you're dealing with this type of strategy. It seems like 2-3 base play, but how are we supposed to know? 2. If your opponent is trying to play a macro game with a lot of defense and a mostly/completely air army (which is what I think you're describing), then you should just man up and build phoenixes. You can afford about one stargate per base that you have, and I would highly recommend you get a Beacon and range as well as +air weapons. You could screw around with blink stalkers and high templar if you want, but it's a lot easier to just build ranged phoenix and hard-counter the banshee/raven/viking army. At best, you kill his whole army and you can go hit him with immortal/zealot and end the game. At worst, you take over air control and force him to build other units, and you can play expansion-denial and go into a long game with carrier+phoenix+templar. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On December 27 2012 01:36 ineversmile wrote: 1. Show us a replay, because your description doesn't tell us anything about the timings or how late into the game you're dealing with this type of strategy. It seems like 2-3 base play, but how are we supposed to know? 2. If your opponent is trying to play a macro game with a lot of defense and a mostly/completely air army (which is what I think you're describing), then you should just man up and build phoenixes. You can afford about one stargate per base that you have, and I would highly recommend you get a Beacon and range as well as +air weapons. You could screw around with blink stalkers and high templar if you want, but it's a lot easier to just build ranged phoenix and hard-counter the banshee/raven/viking army. At best, you kill his whole army and you can go hit him with immortal/zealot and end the game. At worst, you take over air control and force him to build other units, and you can play expansion-denial and go into a long game with carrier+phoenix+templar. there isnt even a need for a starport - Archons / High templars completely shut down terran air builds. Feedback the ravens, banshees, just make sure you get observer speed + plenty of observers to snipe the banshees before his vikings can take them out. Storm in general is what you want / need to kill this build since the air units clump like crazy and feedback finishes them off. To be honest, if Terran goes pure air terran I just roflstomp all his expansions with storm / arhon drops, since his army is slow as shit. Warp prism speed is imba :D | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3291 Posts
On December 27 2012 05:20 malaan wrote: there isnt even a need for a starport - Archons / High templars completely shut down terran air builds. Feedback the ravens, banshees, just make sure you get observer speed + plenty of observers to snipe the banshees before his vikings can take them out. Storm in general is what you want / need to kill this build since the air units clump like crazy and feedback finishes them off. To be honest, if Terran goes pure air terran I just roflstomp all his expansions with storm / arhon drops, since his army is slow as shit. Warp prism speed is imba :D Stargate is safest. and i add on storms with warpprism later on. Archons don't have enough range and good players will just fly away or hang over dead air space where archons can't hit and become useless supply. However a speed prism with 4 hts ive found is more than enough. | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On December 27 2012 06:04 MysteryMeat1 wrote: Stargate is safest. and i add on storms with warpprism later on. Archons don't have enough range and good players will just fly away or hang over dead air space where archons can't hit and become useless supply. However a speed prism with 4 hts ive found is more than enough. The problem with going stargate to counter Terran air is the follow up. Phoenix are no good at taking down PFs or even pushing into the terran base. While they can also be hard counter by additional vikings. HTs are the more intuitive choice, you are going to be getting twilight for blink and feedback is so good against Banshee Raven. Also once the HTs are used you can go for archons to make a good counter push. On top of that when going Stargate you give your opponent reason to tech switch away since Phoenix are horrible vs any non Terran air composition. With the HTs you already have storm for bio. | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
PvZ - Daybreak - http://drop.sc/288085 - High diamond Since it's season lock soon I thought I'd try to play some macro PvZ's before the (hopefully) zerg nerf. However, it doesn't seem like my problem is with the infestor but instead the general idea of brood lords. This is a 52 minute game I just finished and I've just finished watching the replay part. I don't expect anyone to watch through the whole game. I'm just asking for opinions on the 26:30 - 40:00 part. At 26:30: --- I am on 5 bases, he is on 4. I am 86 workers to his 64 (We're both mined out on 2) --- I have a very stalker based army --- Lost resources are 15k to 21k in my favor --- We have similar min bank but I have a superior gas bank --- I am 182 supply to 159 At 30:00 --- I've started to mix in archons in my army (way too late, I know but I was maxed for so long  )--- I've started stargate tech but sadly, I wrongly thought I had a fleet beacon down. Took extra time for me to realise my bacon was nowhere to be found. --- 21k to 29k lost resources in my favor --- I am on 3/3/3, he's on 3/2 on ground and 0/0 on air I believe I should have won this but I just don't know how to engage that army he has. I managed to deny his fifth until the 31:30 mark where he managed to establish it. At this point, I'm just trying to delay the engagement and make sure I just have to beat his army once. He gets the winning engagement at 35:00. The most logical answer would be archon toilet and yes, I'm very late with my mothership tech but at the 38 min mark I get a decent vortex. The problem is that I can't get my 9 archons into it! All the broodlings are in the way :/ So, any hints on how to fight the late game zerg army? I always had the problem that I can't get my archons into the vortex due to all the broodlings/roachlings... | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
Is it possible to hold Bomber-style 5-rax aggression with double forge? I know the regular stim-medivac timing is pretty hard to deal with, let alone with 2 more raxxes. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On December 27 2012 12:56 Salivanth wrote: Just curious here, I've never actually faced this on ladder. Is it possible to hold Bomber-style 5-rax aggression with double forge? I know the regular stim-medivac timing is pretty hard to deal with, let alone with 2 more raxxes. If you see it coming you need storm. No other way to hold it since you have 2 forges you wont have anywhere near enough money to support the army you need and double upgrades before it hits. Currently, going double forge before 3rd base is a metagame autoloss. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
First off, it's hard if not impossible to have storm on time for a medivac timing (you have to skip either robo or forge upgrades to get it and still have a meaningful standing army). If you open double forge it's just impossible to have storm. Additionally, double forge openings should be able to hold off medivac timings; it's harder than with other builds but still doable, especially with more modern/european builds that get much faster colossus. I guess in the worst case scenario you can get a couple of cannons at your front and delay 2/2 if you are really really scared. Finally, double reactor is far more popular than bomber's build, which means poor Chill just felt a disturbance in the Force at your use of the word "metagame". | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote: I have a really small and quick question: I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? You can either 12 gate or use 1 chrono, rally 12th probe to make the 13 gate, and then use the second chrono as soon as you can start the 14th probe without any cut. I tested chrono chrono 13 gate on Entombed, and even with near-perfect worker stacking, there was a tiny probe cut (maybe .2 seconds), so it's not possible on any other ladder map. The other option is to gateway scout on 2 player maps but you won't be in quite as good a position vs. 6/7 pool. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote: There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote: I have a really small and quick question: I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? If you build your first 2 pylons, gateway, and core by your main nexus, you are safe against all early pools. There should be information in the PvZ guide about this, and if not you should be able to find info on 13 gate expand vs 6-9 pool somewhere...but basically, your goal is to have your production and pylons by your probes so you can guard them from lings with your workers without losing too much mining time/spreading your defense thin. Then you get a zealot out to help the pulled probes with this, and then you get a stalker and the rush is basically over. Then you just 4gate your opponent and enjoy your fast win. If he all-ins you with mass lings and maybe even a drone pull, you just keep building zealots and stalkers, sim-city a bit more, and just buy time until your economy builds you a bigger army than he can possibly handle. You clear your base, chase his army around the map, and then end it with warp-ins by his main (bring a probe over there while you chase his army away). Basically, 13 gate 15 gas is the hard counter to early pools because you don't lose any buildings, you never cut probes after the 9 food 5 sec delay, and your tech is faster than FFE+cannon in mineral line.So, since there's nothing else you're going to want to discover that fast with a 9 scout, you should just 13 gate-->scout. Therefore, you should actually spend 3 chronos on probes, no matter what. Personally, I spend the first 4 on probes and then the 5th (and usually 6th) on my stalker(s). Then I boost probes a couple more times, and then I'll start boosting either upgrades or whatever tech I went (robo/stargate, whatever). What I like to do is a 15 gas after that, and I skip the zealot and just go stalker and 23 nexus while the stalker is about 2/3 done, then another stalker and I start my wall-off. Since I'm cutting the Zealot for more econ-heavy play, I make up for this by checking the watchtowers (obviously depending on the map). Against early pools, I can see the lings making it across the map and start a zealot as a response to that. If I don't see an early pool, I can use the towers to see an overlord or two flying across the map. Sometimes, that means I get a free overlord kill. So by taking a little bit of extra time to check the towers, I'm both safer against early pools and simultaneously given an opportunity to punish a stray overlord against macro play. So in a gateway expand involving 1 gas and a ~17 core, you should really boost 3-4 times on probes; if you scout lings coming your way that fast you use the 4th boost on your zealot. The 5th boost should almost always go on your stalker. What you should do with your 6th chrono and forward is up to you. While you shouldn't necessarily have a rigid plan of what you're using it on, you should have an idea of how to use that resource. For example, against someone who plays very greedy, you can boost warpgate a couple times after stalker and 4-6 gate him. If you want to play econ-heavy, you could boost probes more. If you want to apply pressure from just 1 gate, you could just boost your gate and walk units across the map. It all depends on your opponent's level of droning, his number of queens, whether or not he makes spines, and his gas(=ling speed) timings. I know it was a simple, quick question, but I figured I would give an elaborate response because I'm bored and it'll hopefully be helpful. | ||
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