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On December 28 2012 03:28 Teoita wrote:
That's a ridicolous claim.
First off, it's hard if not impossible to have storm on time for a medivac timing (you have to skip either robo or forge upgrades to get it and still have a meaningful standing army). If you open double forge it's just impossible to have storm.
Additionally, double forge openings should be able to hold off medivac timings; it's harder than with other builds but still doable, especially with more modern/european builds that get much faster colossus. I guess in the worst case scenario you can get a couple of cannons at your front and delay 2/2 if you are really really scared.
Finally, double reactor is far more popular than bomber's build, which means poor Chill just felt a disturbance in the Force at your use of the word "metagame".
To clarify: I don't have much trouble with the regular double reactor stim-medivac timings. It can get hairy sometimes, but I think my response is solid and it's mostly about outplaying the opponent. I was just wondering if the Bomber timing, which would likely hit with more units, can be stopped with the double forge style. It's just out of curiosity: I've literally never faced the Bomber build even once.
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Italy12248 Posts
On December 28 2012 06:41 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 03:28 Teoita wrote:
That's a ridicolous claim.
First off, it's hard if not impossible to have storm on time for a medivac timing (you have to skip either robo or forge upgrades to get it and still have a meaningful standing army). If you open double forge it's just impossible to have storm.
Additionally, double forge openings should be able to hold off medivac timings; it's harder than with other builds but still doable, especially with more modern/european builds that get much faster colossus. I guess in the worst case scenario you can get a couple of cannons at your front and delay 2/2 if you are really really scared.
Finally, double reactor is far more popular than bomber's build, which means poor Chill just felt a disturbance in the Force at your use of the word "metagame".
To clarify: I don't have much trouble with the regular double reactor stim-medivac timings. It can get hairy sometimes, but I think my response is solid and it's mostly about outplaying the opponent. I was just wondering if the Bomber timing, which would likely hit with more units, can be stopped with the double forge style. It's just out of curiosity: I've literally never faced the Bomber build even once.
I would imagine so, since it does hit later (he moves out like 50 ish seconds after double reactor right) so you should have 1/1 and a colossus ready (with colossus into double forge).
I can see why Creator style fast double forge would have trouble, but i still think you should be able to hold, especially with the updated build monk posted (which gets faster colossus than back in the day). But yeah it's not a very popular build.
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Wait, Monk posted an updated build? With faster colossus! To the search bar!
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Italy12248 Posts
NrGmonk wrote: For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
 it's in the op
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On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason.
That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly.
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On December 28 2012 07:16 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +NrGmonk wrote: For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881 it's in the op
I'm pretty sure that's not the build you were talking about, with colossus into double forge. It's okay, I found both myself.
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On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason.
please just stop with your smart-ass remarks and yea you are wrong...city is former GM and you are low masters when it comes to creditability I would favor city over you...there are good reasons to scout after pylon...are you telling me that getting faster intel isn't a good reason? it's up to the player himself/herself to determine if getting that faster intel is justifiable and that just comes down to how they play
for ex. I switched to 9 scouting than gateway scout in PvT just because I favor faster intel than a slightly better eco
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On December 28 2012 07:20 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason. That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly.
I agree that Sated could have ('should have' is a bit presumptuous, so I won't go that far) elaborated upon his feelings on the matter. However, he is right: it's just not a good reason. And if Sated and I agree on something, it's probably an absolute truth because that seems to be rare...we butt heads often.
It's proven that you don't need to scout earlier than 13 to be ultra-safe against any kind of early pool, and a 13 scout will always tell you pool/hatch/early gas timings as well as indicating whether or not he has built the maximum number of drones, thus far. So we can agree that the only other logical reason to 9 scout is to block a 15 hatch, right?
Isn't it directly better to play against a hatch-first than pool-first? Specifically with gateway openers, you're going to go across the map and apply some pressure with your first couple of stalkers and maybe a zealot. So if he goes hatch first, his first queen is delayed, his rounds of lings are delayed, his potential to spine/get speed are delayed, etc. This means you can go over there and kill a couple of drones or botch mining time with 2-3 units. Therefore, I would much rather just let him have his natural hatchery and have a 13 gate instead of a 14 gate, since that means earlier core and earlier stalkers. You could 12gate, but then your economy is weaker so your nexus is going to be around 30 supply instead of 23 supply, unless you cut units for a bit...but that's very counter-intuitive when it comes to 12 gating to apply pressure....
Do you see terrans SCV scout at 9-11 in TvZ if they're opening 1rax expand? Not unless it's a 4-player map. That's basically how things should work in PvZ if you open gate/gas. Mathematically speaking, the timings for a 13 gate are optimized over a 12 or 14 gate. So if the only thing you get from a 9 scout is the potential to block a hatch-first (and shoot yourself in the foot, in the process), then why are you 9 scouting?
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Italy12248 Posts
While i agree that 9scouting isn't very necessary nor useful with gateway/core expand, especially with no wall off at the ramp, by the time your zealot/stalker cross the map (close to the 5 minute mark) he should already have a queen at his natural anyway.
Realistically, outside of cannon rushing and probe blocking there is really no way for Protoss to punish it. On the other hand, it's a very rare opening so it works out fine for us 
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On December 28 2012 08:31 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 07:20 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason. That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly. I agree that Sated could have ('should have' is a bit presumptuous, so I won't go that far) elaborated upon his feelings on the matter. However, he is right: it's just not a good reason. And if Sated and I agree on something, it's probably an absolute truth because that seems to be rare...we butt heads often. It's proven that you don't need to scout earlier than 13 to be ultra-safe against any kind of early pool, and a 13 scout will always tell you pool/hatch/early gas timings as well as indicating whether or not he has built the maximum number of drones, thus far. So we can agree that the only other logical reason to 9 scout is to block a 15 hatch, right? Isn't it directly better to play against a hatch-first than pool-first? Specifically with gateway openers, you're going to go across the map and apply some pressure with your first couple of stalkers and maybe a zealot. So if he goes hatch first, his first queen is delayed, his rounds of lings are delayed, his potential to spine/get speed are delayed, etc. This means you can go over there and kill a couple of drones or botch mining time with 2-3 units. Therefore, I would much rather just let him have his natural hatchery and have a 13 gate instead of a 14 gate, since that means earlier core and earlier stalkers. You could 12gate, but then your economy is weaker so your nexus is going to be around 30 supply instead of 23 supply, unless you cut units for a bit...but that's very counter-intuitive when it comes to 12 gating to apply pressure.... Do you see terrans SCV scout at 9-11 in TvZ if they're opening 1rax expand? Not unless it's a 4-player map. That's basically how things should work in PvZ if you open gate/gas. Mathematically speaking, the timings for a 13 gate are optimized over a 12 or 14 gate. So if the only thing you get from a 9 scout is the potential to block a hatch-first (and shoot yourself in the foot, in the process), then why are you 9 scouting?
I'm not talking about being "safe" against early pools, since any gateway-first build will hold a 6 pool. I'm talking about holding it as efficiently as possible. Pylon scouting lets you save the third chrono, which helps in two ways: a 10 second boost to zealot build time and less probes built, which helps you wall off more quickly.
You don't want to play against hatch first if he sniffs out the gateway expand and goes early gas. In fact, hatch first with super fast gas is the worst nightmare of gateway builds. Early stalkers can pressure pool first just as well as hatch first in my opinion. From the moment the zerg starts an extractor, it's about 200 seconds until speed finishes, giving you uncontested map control for that period, so you want the zerg to get speed as late as possible. If anything, speed is more likely to start EARLIER with hatch first, since the zerg may have drone scouted.
I won't go into the terran discussion because comparing the scouting necessities of different races is pointless.
There's nothing wrong with gateway scouting at all, I'm just pointing out that pylon scouting DOES have its merits, which is why some pros use it.
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On December 28 2012 08:38 Teoita wrote:While i agree that 9scouting isn't very necessary nor useful with gateway/core expand, especially with no wall off at the ramp, by the time your zealot/stalker cross the map (close to the 5 minute mark) he should already have a queen at his natural anyway. Realistically, outside of cannon rushing and probe blocking there is really no way for Protoss to punish it. On the other hand, it's a very rare opening so it works out fine for us
I actually go hatch first if Protoss hasn't scouted me by 2:00 or so (no pylon scout basically). If they aren't gonna block it, I'm gonna take it. It only really hurts when they maphack and 3-pylon wall on a 4 player map without scouting, but that's only happened once or twice so I'll take my chances 
I know DRG does this often, and it seems necessary to hold off blind nexus first->2 base all in, specifically immortal/sentry.
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On December 28 2012 08:38 Teoita wrote:While i agree that 9scouting isn't very necessary nor useful with gateway/core expand, especially with no wall off at the ramp, by the time your zealot/stalker cross the map (close to the 5 minute mark) he should already have a queen at his natural anyway. Realistically, outside of cannon rushing and probe blocking there is really no way for Protoss to punish it. On the other hand, it's a very rare opening so it works out fine for us
Right, but my point is that it's only one queen and no spines, and usually just the first batch of 2/4/6 zerglings because of the pool timing. Since that queen is later, further queens are later.
On December 28 2012 09:14 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 08:31 ineversmile wrote:On December 28 2012 07:20 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason. That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly. I agree that Sated could have ('should have' is a bit presumptuous, so I won't go that far) elaborated upon his feelings on the matter. However, he is right: it's just not a good reason. And if Sated and I agree on something, it's probably an absolute truth because that seems to be rare...we butt heads often. It's proven that you don't need to scout earlier than 13 to be ultra-safe against any kind of early pool, and a 13 scout will always tell you pool/hatch/early gas timings as well as indicating whether or not he has built the maximum number of drones, thus far. So we can agree that the only other logical reason to 9 scout is to block a 15 hatch, right? Isn't it directly better to play against a hatch-first than pool-first? Specifically with gateway openers, you're going to go across the map and apply some pressure with your first couple of stalkers and maybe a zealot. So if he goes hatch first, his first queen is delayed, his rounds of lings are delayed, his potential to spine/get speed are delayed, etc. This means you can go over there and kill a couple of drones or botch mining time with 2-3 units. Therefore, I would much rather just let him have his natural hatchery and have a 13 gate instead of a 14 gate, since that means earlier core and earlier stalkers. You could 12gate, but then your economy is weaker so your nexus is going to be around 30 supply instead of 23 supply, unless you cut units for a bit...but that's very counter-intuitive when it comes to 12 gating to apply pressure.... Do you see terrans SCV scout at 9-11 in TvZ if they're opening 1rax expand? Not unless it's a 4-player map. That's basically how things should work in PvZ if you open gate/gas. Mathematically speaking, the timings for a 13 gate are optimized over a 12 or 14 gate. So if the only thing you get from a 9 scout is the potential to block a hatch-first (and shoot yourself in the foot, in the process), then why are you 9 scouting? I'm not talking about being "safe" against early pools, since any gateway-first build will hold a 6 pool. I'm talking about holding it as efficiently as possible. Pylon scouting lets you save the third chrono, which helps in two ways: a 10 second boost to zealot build time and less probes built, which helps you wall off more quickly. You don't want to play against hatch first if he sniffs out the gateway expand and goes early gas. In fact, hatch first with super fast gas is the worst nightmare of gateway builds. Early stalkers can pressure pool first just as well as hatch first in my opinion. From the moment the zerg starts an extractor, it's about 200 seconds until speed finishes, giving you uncontested map control for that period, so you want the zerg to get speed as late as possible. If anything, speed is more likely to start EARLIER with hatch first, since the zerg may have drone scouted. I won't go into the terran discussion because comparing the scouting necessities of different races is pointless. There's nothing wrong with gateway scouting at all, I'm just pointing out that pylon scouting DOES have its merits, which is why some pros use it.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by holding a 6 pool "as efficiently as possible." You're talking about walling off more quickly against an opening where you don't need to wall off. You're building your gateway and core at your ramp, right? That's actually the least-efficient way to hold an early pool with gateway/core. If you build it by your main mineral line, you don't have to wall off. You just cancel a probe and build your zealot when your scouting probes sees the lings coming across the map, and the extra probe or 2 you got from the 3rd chrono means you can spare a couple extra probes to pull against the lings.
Do you really wall off your main with gate/core? Please tell me you know better than that....
On December 28 2012 09:27 Mavvie wrote:I actually go hatch first if Protoss hasn't scouted me by 2:00 or so (no pylon scout basically). If they aren't gonna block it, I'm gonna take it. It only really hurts when they maphack and 3-pylon wall on a 4 player map without scouting, but that's only happened once or twice so I'll take my chances I know DRG does this often, and it seems necessary to hold off blind nexus first->2 base all in, specifically immortal/sentry.
Generally speaking, this is the standard. Usually it's hatch first, then pool when zerg has 200 minerals again, and the gas gets built when the ovie finds the natural and sees no FFE. That's what a gate/core opening should expect. It's just not even worth blocking; your probe can only block for so long without pyloning...and pyloning delays the toss way more than the zerg here.
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On December 28 2012 18:49 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 09:14 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 08:31 ineversmile wrote:On December 28 2012 07:20 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason. That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly. I agree that Sated could have ('should have' is a bit presumptuous, so I won't go that far) elaborated upon his feelings on the matter. However, he is right: it's just not a good reason. And if Sated and I agree on something, it's probably an absolute truth because that seems to be rare...we butt heads often. It's proven that you don't need to scout earlier than 13 to be ultra-safe against any kind of early pool, and a 13 scout will always tell you pool/hatch/early gas timings as well as indicating whether or not he has built the maximum number of drones, thus far. So we can agree that the only other logical reason to 9 scout is to block a 15 hatch, right? Isn't it directly better to play against a hatch-first than pool-first? Specifically with gateway openers, you're going to go across the map and apply some pressure with your first couple of stalkers and maybe a zealot. So if he goes hatch first, his first queen is delayed, his rounds of lings are delayed, his potential to spine/get speed are delayed, etc. This means you can go over there and kill a couple of drones or botch mining time with 2-3 units. Therefore, I would much rather just let him have his natural hatchery and have a 13 gate instead of a 14 gate, since that means earlier core and earlier stalkers. You could 12gate, but then your economy is weaker so your nexus is going to be around 30 supply instead of 23 supply, unless you cut units for a bit...but that's very counter-intuitive when it comes to 12 gating to apply pressure.... Do you see terrans SCV scout at 9-11 in TvZ if they're opening 1rax expand? Not unless it's a 4-player map. That's basically how things should work in PvZ if you open gate/gas. Mathematically speaking, the timings for a 13 gate are optimized over a 12 or 14 gate. So if the only thing you get from a 9 scout is the potential to block a hatch-first (and shoot yourself in the foot, in the process), then why are you 9 scouting? I'm not talking about being "safe" against early pools, since any gateway-first build will hold a 6 pool. I'm talking about holding it as efficiently as possible. Pylon scouting lets you save the third chrono, which helps in two ways: a 10 second boost to zealot build time and less probes built, which helps you wall off more quickly. You don't want to play against hatch first if he sniffs out the gateway expand and goes early gas. In fact, hatch first with super fast gas is the worst nightmare of gateway builds. Early stalkers can pressure pool first just as well as hatch first in my opinion. From the moment the zerg starts an extractor, it's about 200 seconds until speed finishes, giving you uncontested map control for that period, so you want the zerg to get speed as late as possible. If anything, speed is more likely to start EARLIER with hatch first, since the zerg may have drone scouted. I won't go into the terran discussion because comparing the scouting necessities of different races is pointless. There's nothing wrong with gateway scouting at all, I'm just pointing out that pylon scouting DOES have its merits, which is why some pros use it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by holding a 6 pool "as efficiently as possible." You're talking about walling off more quickly against an opening where you don't need to wall off. You're building your gateway and core at your ramp, right? That's actually the least-efficient way to hold an early pool with gateway/core. If you build it by your main mineral line, you don't have to wall off. You just cancel a probe and build your zealot when your scouting probes sees the lings coming across the map, and the extra probe or 2 you got from the 3rd chrono means you can spare a couple extra probes to pull against the lings. Do you really wall off your main with gate/core? Please tell me you know better than that....
Again, it's not about one being better than the other. Each choice has its pluses and minuses. Gateway at the mineral line is indeed better vs. 6 pool, but it's weaker against 10 pool and especially 10 pool with speed.
Instead of asking me if I know better, you should contact Seed, Squirtle, et al. and ask them. If gateway at the ramp is truly as abhorrent as you claim, they either:
1) Don't know how to play properly, or
2) Intentionally shoot themselves in the foot every time they opt not to FFE.
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On December 29 2012 01:34 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 18:49 ineversmile wrote:On December 28 2012 09:14 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 08:31 ineversmile wrote:On December 28 2012 07:20 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason. That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly. I agree that Sated could have ('should have' is a bit presumptuous, so I won't go that far) elaborated upon his feelings on the matter. However, he is right: it's just not a good reason. And if Sated and I agree on something, it's probably an absolute truth because that seems to be rare...we butt heads often. It's proven that you don't need to scout earlier than 13 to be ultra-safe against any kind of early pool, and a 13 scout will always tell you pool/hatch/early gas timings as well as indicating whether or not he has built the maximum number of drones, thus far. So we can agree that the only other logical reason to 9 scout is to block a 15 hatch, right? Isn't it directly better to play against a hatch-first than pool-first? Specifically with gateway openers, you're going to go across the map and apply some pressure with your first couple of stalkers and maybe a zealot. So if he goes hatch first, his first queen is delayed, his rounds of lings are delayed, his potential to spine/get speed are delayed, etc. This means you can go over there and kill a couple of drones or botch mining time with 2-3 units. Therefore, I would much rather just let him have his natural hatchery and have a 13 gate instead of a 14 gate, since that means earlier core and earlier stalkers. You could 12gate, but then your economy is weaker so your nexus is going to be around 30 supply instead of 23 supply, unless you cut units for a bit...but that's very counter-intuitive when it comes to 12 gating to apply pressure.... Do you see terrans SCV scout at 9-11 in TvZ if they're opening 1rax expand? Not unless it's a 4-player map. That's basically how things should work in PvZ if you open gate/gas. Mathematically speaking, the timings for a 13 gate are optimized over a 12 or 14 gate. So if the only thing you get from a 9 scout is the potential to block a hatch-first (and shoot yourself in the foot, in the process), then why are you 9 scouting? I'm not talking about being "safe" against early pools, since any gateway-first build will hold a 6 pool. I'm talking about holding it as efficiently as possible. Pylon scouting lets you save the third chrono, which helps in two ways: a 10 second boost to zealot build time and less probes built, which helps you wall off more quickly. You don't want to play against hatch first if he sniffs out the gateway expand and goes early gas. In fact, hatch first with super fast gas is the worst nightmare of gateway builds. Early stalkers can pressure pool first just as well as hatch first in my opinion. From the moment the zerg starts an extractor, it's about 200 seconds until speed finishes, giving you uncontested map control for that period, so you want the zerg to get speed as late as possible. If anything, speed is more likely to start EARLIER with hatch first, since the zerg may have drone scouted. I won't go into the terran discussion because comparing the scouting necessities of different races is pointless. There's nothing wrong with gateway scouting at all, I'm just pointing out that pylon scouting DOES have its merits, which is why some pros use it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by holding a 6 pool "as efficiently as possible." You're talking about walling off more quickly against an opening where you don't need to wall off. You're building your gateway and core at your ramp, right? That's actually the least-efficient way to hold an early pool with gateway/core. If you build it by your main mineral line, you don't have to wall off. You just cancel a probe and build your zealot when your scouting probes sees the lings coming across the map, and the extra probe or 2 you got from the 3rd chrono means you can spare a couple extra probes to pull against the lings. Do you really wall off your main with gate/core? Please tell me you know better than that.... Again, it's not about one being better than the other. Each choice has its pluses and minuses. Gateway at the mineral line is indeed better vs. 6 pool, but it's weaker against 10 pool and especially 10 pool with speed. Instead of asking me if I know better, you should contact Seed, Squirtle, et al. and ask them. If gateway at the ramp is truly as abhorrent as you claim, they either: 1) Don't know how to play properly, or 2) Intentionally shoot themselves in the foot every time they opt not to FFE.
Actually, one is better than the other. Walling off is a safety precaution for dealing with speedlings, not for early lings. Early lings can be handled with probe pulls and gateway units. Speedlings can be handled by walling off as a response to scouting an early speed timing. So, if I have to choose between a 9 scout and 12/14 gate or a 13 gate-->scout, I'm going with the one that makes me more money and still gives me that earlier gateway build time.
If Seed and Squirtle are walling off their main ramp with gate+core, I'm not afraid to say that they're doing it wrong. For example: GSL champion zerg Life has repeatedly gone up to 10 drones and then done an overlord and gas tricked to 11/10 supply, in important matches, even though it is mathematically incorrect. Pros don't necessarily do everything right, all the time. They do the vast majority of things right, and that's why they get paid the big bucks--but they aren't perfect.
If you actually have a way for me to have a conversation with Seed or Squirtle about build orders, I would love to see it. But since there's a 99% chance that you're being sarcastic, I'm telling you again: you're doing it wrong. Walling off your main ramp is economically weaker than building your stuff by your nexus. Walling off your main ramp is more dangerous than building your stuff by your nexus. Scouting after 9 pylon doesn't tell you anything that a 13 gate-->scout couldn't.
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On December 29 2012 02:43 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 01:34 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 18:49 ineversmile wrote:On December 28 2012 09:14 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 08:31 ineversmile wrote:On December 28 2012 07:20 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 06:41 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 05:49 city42 wrote:On December 28 2012 05:30 Sated wrote:On December 28 2012 04:59 NVRLand wrote:
I have a really small and quick question:
I've started to do some gateway expands in pvz and I don't really know when to use the second chrono. Since it's vs zerg I want to scout on 9 but that won't let me put down a gateway at 13 without probe cut (I think? Maybe with mineral micro?) after continous chronoboosting. Should I chrono at once when the first one is done and put it down on 14 or simply wait with the chrono until I have queued up the 14th probe? There's no reason to scout on 9 supply if you're opening with a Gateway. Of course there is. You can't deny 15 hatch with a gateway scout, and it's also a bit worse vs. 6/7 pool. Moreover, the timing of the scout tips the zerg off to a gateway expand on 2 player maps, since FFE almost always involves pylon scout or parting-style late scout. The obvious trade-off is the economic hit from having one less probe for a longer period. Saying there's no reason is very misleading. Oh, I apologise. There's no GOOD reason. That's an outrageous thing to say. Each choice has its positives and negatives, and both are used by players much better than us. Seed, for example, pylon scouts while Squirtle gateway scouts. Dismissing something just because you don't personally like it is silly. I agree that Sated could have ('should have' is a bit presumptuous, so I won't go that far) elaborated upon his feelings on the matter. However, he is right: it's just not a good reason. And if Sated and I agree on something, it's probably an absolute truth because that seems to be rare...we butt heads often. It's proven that you don't need to scout earlier than 13 to be ultra-safe against any kind of early pool, and a 13 scout will always tell you pool/hatch/early gas timings as well as indicating whether or not he has built the maximum number of drones, thus far. So we can agree that the only other logical reason to 9 scout is to block a 15 hatch, right? Isn't it directly better to play against a hatch-first than pool-first? Specifically with gateway openers, you're going to go across the map and apply some pressure with your first couple of stalkers and maybe a zealot. So if he goes hatch first, his first queen is delayed, his rounds of lings are delayed, his potential to spine/get speed are delayed, etc. This means you can go over there and kill a couple of drones or botch mining time with 2-3 units. Therefore, I would much rather just let him have his natural hatchery and have a 13 gate instead of a 14 gate, since that means earlier core and earlier stalkers. You could 12gate, but then your economy is weaker so your nexus is going to be around 30 supply instead of 23 supply, unless you cut units for a bit...but that's very counter-intuitive when it comes to 12 gating to apply pressure.... Do you see terrans SCV scout at 9-11 in TvZ if they're opening 1rax expand? Not unless it's a 4-player map. That's basically how things should work in PvZ if you open gate/gas. Mathematically speaking, the timings for a 13 gate are optimized over a 12 or 14 gate. So if the only thing you get from a 9 scout is the potential to block a hatch-first (and shoot yourself in the foot, in the process), then why are you 9 scouting? I'm not talking about being "safe" against early pools, since any gateway-first build will hold a 6 pool. I'm talking about holding it as efficiently as possible. Pylon scouting lets you save the third chrono, which helps in two ways: a 10 second boost to zealot build time and less probes built, which helps you wall off more quickly. You don't want to play against hatch first if he sniffs out the gateway expand and goes early gas. In fact, hatch first with super fast gas is the worst nightmare of gateway builds. Early stalkers can pressure pool first just as well as hatch first in my opinion. From the moment the zerg starts an extractor, it's about 200 seconds until speed finishes, giving you uncontested map control for that period, so you want the zerg to get speed as late as possible. If anything, speed is more likely to start EARLIER with hatch first, since the zerg may have drone scouted. I won't go into the terran discussion because comparing the scouting necessities of different races is pointless. There's nothing wrong with gateway scouting at all, I'm just pointing out that pylon scouting DOES have its merits, which is why some pros use it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by holding a 6 pool "as efficiently as possible." You're talking about walling off more quickly against an opening where you don't need to wall off. You're building your gateway and core at your ramp, right? That's actually the least-efficient way to hold an early pool with gateway/core. If you build it by your main mineral line, you don't have to wall off. You just cancel a probe and build your zealot when your scouting probes sees the lings coming across the map, and the extra probe or 2 you got from the 3rd chrono means you can spare a couple extra probes to pull against the lings. Do you really wall off your main with gate/core? Please tell me you know better than that.... Again, it's not about one being better than the other. Each choice has its pluses and minuses. Gateway at the mineral line is indeed better vs. 6 pool, but it's weaker against 10 pool and especially 10 pool with speed. Instead of asking me if I know better, you should contact Seed, Squirtle, et al. and ask them. If gateway at the ramp is truly as abhorrent as you claim, they either: 1) Don't know how to play properly, or 2) Intentionally shoot themselves in the foot every time they opt not to FFE. Actually, one is better than the other. Walling off is a safety precaution for dealing with speedlings, not for early lings. Early lings can be handled with probe pulls and gateway units. Speedlings can be handled by walling off as a response to scouting an early speed timing. So, if I have to choose between a 9 scout and 12/14 gate or a 13 gate-->scout, I'm going with the one that makes me more money and still gives me that earlier gateway build time.
I have no clue what you're on about with 12/14 gate, since I never mentioned either of those. You can pylon scout and go 13 gate at the ramp without issue, as was detailed on the previous page of this thread. Also, it's not always possible to see the speed with a gateway scout.
edit: I forgot to mention, walling as a response to scouting speed is clearly inferior to having gateway/core at the ramp in the first place. The reactive wall means that zerg knows exactly where your money has gone, so he doesn't need to prepare for any sort of tech.
If Seed and Squirtle are walling off their main ramp with gate+core, I'm not afraid to say that they're doing it wrong. For example: GSL champion zerg Life has repeatedly gone up to 10 drones and then done an overlord and gas tricked to 11/10 supply, in important matches, even though it is mathematically incorrect. Pros don't necessarily do everything right, all the time. They do the vast majority of things right, and that's why they get paid the big bucks--but they aren't perfect.
I never said anything about pros doing everything right, all the time. There's a huge difference between perfection and playing the early game properly.
If you actually have a way for me to have a conversation with Seed or Squirtle about build orders, I would love to see it. But since there's a 99% chance that you're being sarcastic, I'm telling you again: you're doing it wrong. Walling off your main ramp is economically weaker than building your stuff by your nexus. Walling off your main ramp is more dangerous than building your stuff by your nexus. Scouting after 9 pylon doesn't tell you anything that a 13 gate-->scout couldn't.
I'm not being sarcastic at all. They have twitter and Seed also posts in his TL fanclub thread (and has pretty good English).
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What do I do when I cant win unless I use a 4 gate stalker rush?
Ive tried ffe, 1 gate fe and loads of others, nothing will work for me 
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Italy12248 Posts
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Who currently has the best pvt in the world. I need some help fine tuning bo's and responses and i just wanted to watch like 30 games from one player. Any suggestion?
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Italy12248 Posts
I recommend Rain's code S games.
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EPT
